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Core Necro Post Patch Will Have Broken Sustain - Told You


Trevor Boyer.6524

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@"lighter.2708" said:

@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the
vampiric
trait without forgeting
vampiric ritual
and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (
well, signet, spectral
and
minions
).
  • Well
    because
    vampiric ritual
    isn't touched.
  • Signet
    because
    signet of vampirism
    ,
    signet of undeath
    ,
    signet of suffering
    and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral
    because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions
    because
    blood fiend
    's heal on hit and
    vampiric
    's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like
parasitic contagion
or
unholy sanctuary
.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

First of all, how do people know if necro's sustain is not touched not enough? like literally, how do u know

By reading the patch notes that were released.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:

@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the
vampiric
trait without forgeting
vampiric ritual
and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (
well, signet, spectral
and
minions
).
  • Well
    because
    vampiric ritual
    isn't touched.
  • Signet
    because
    signet of vampirism
    ,
    signet of undeath
    ,
    signet of suffering
    and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral
    because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions
    because
    blood fiend
    's heal on hit and
    vampiric
    's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like
parasitic contagion
or
unholy sanctuary
.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

First of all, how do people know if necro's sustain is not touched not enough? like literally, how do u know

By reading the patch notes that were released.

..oh boy..

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@"lighter.2708" said:

@"lighter.2708" said:

@"lighter.2708" said:In what post u see life force generation not nerfed...Spectral Walk: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 50 secondsSpectral Armor: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsGhastly Claws: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.5 to 0.333. Increased cooldown from 8 seconds to 10 seconds

also, necro healing nerfed means overall necro sustain is still nerfed,people don't look at overall picture at all...should we start nerfing evade frame by 30% as well..seriously..if that's how people gonna nerf each stuff individually and not overall sustain...necro force life maybe touched little, but u can't deny the fact that necro general sustain has been nerfed

like they can easily shave necro normal healing by 90% and u will still say "death shroud not touched, OP" for how tunnel visioned some of u are..

I'd tend to be the necromancer's advocate, yet here I still have to disagree. The necromancer's sustain is clearly no touched as much as the other profession's sustain which valid partially the fears of this thread.

In sPvP most of the LF sustain will come from weapon skills and, no, it's not nerfed. However, if it was nerfed, the dynamic of the profession would be seriously hurted because shroud is the "special mechanic" of the necromancer. A smart change like ANet like to pull out would probably be to reduce the shroud's inate damage reduction to 30% instead of 50%.

The other dangerous source of sustain which is not nerfed in this patch is life leeching (from the signet of vampirism to the minion's life leeching ability from the
vampiric
trait without forgeting
vampiric ritual
and the various life leeching skills). ANet appear to have sloppily forgotten about a lot of potentially dangerous sustain sources on the necromancer's kit.

The necromancer is far from being great at sustain in the current game, yet it's possible to be quite resilient. After the patch hit, the necromancer's resilience is bound to shot up by quite a bit more than the other profession's own due to all the sustain sources that ANet "forgot" to look at. I can easily see 4 directions to build that will make the necromancer (and it's e-specs) way more resilient than before in light of the patch notes given after the patch hit (
well, signet, spectral
and
minions
).
  • Well
    because
    vampiric ritual
    isn't touched.
  • Signet
    because
    signet of vampirism
    ,
    signet of undeath
    ,
    signet of suffering
    and even signet of locust are left untouched as well.
  • Spectral
    because the shroud mechanism itself is left untouched boosting the efficiency of LF generating skills.
  • Minions
    because
    blood fiend
    's heal on hit and
    vampiric
    's heal on minion's hit are left untouched.

And I'm not even listing reaper's traitline's untouched sustain (shout trait, GS trait and heal on giving oneself a boon trait.), traits like
parasitic contagion
or
unholy sanctuary
.

To cover up the inadapted design of the necromancer's defensive system, ANet gave it a lot of sustain that can be found everywhere in it's kit. Most of this sustain isn't even touched if we look at the patch notes, so overall the survivability of the necromancer is bound to increase by a lot (even if it's poorly designed survivability). The concerns from this thread may be exagerated but they are not unfounded.

First of all, how do people know if necro's sustain is not touched not enough? like literally, how do u know

By reading the patch notes that were released.

..oh boy..

-correction>was-

took care of it :)

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@"lighter.2708" said:First of all, how do people know if necro's sustain is not touched not enough? like literally, how do u know, did u play in test server to know or something. because not even the best player can know what the meta will shift to with the amount of changes that's happening.

A relatively low damage environment favor mitigation via damage reduction over mitigation via damage nullification. ANet is aiming for less "big hits" and more "small hits" in order to increase the ttk. Thus they shift the gameplay in PvP toward an environment where taking hits can be a viable option whereas we've had an environment where taking hit was not an option up to now.

Even the dumbest player will understand that reducing all damage coefficientd by 33% and sometime more will reduce the incoming damage. The necromancer, on top of that have gain large access to further damage mitigation in death magic. You can easily say without being wrong that the necromancer is second only to earth elementalist at damage reduction (and you'll never see an ele stay in earth, which mean the necromancer can be called the king of damage reduction)

second of all, even if it is true, isn't it clear? necro is clearly very underperforming at the moment, even without this patch, they will either need to nerf other classes or buff necro anyway.

Is it? It is not. The necromancer have it's place in sPvP and will always have. Defensively it is sturdy and even more when build for it. The only thing that prevent him to shine is the high bursts for which he doesn't have any reliable counter. And since burst is basically removed from PvP, nice days wait for the necromancer.

all these comments are pure speculation, even this speculation from pure guessing is true, it would still make sense for why they did it for how underperforming necro is right now, specially when pvp is plagued by rev, thief and mes and pew pew ranger

Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

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@Wisty.4135 said:

@Jobe.8290 said:Bunker Core Necro is going to be unkillable :)

I already see 1 guy that plays menders + wells core necro and he is already labeled a bot due to the fact that he will undoubtedly push far at start of match and just sit on node. I’m surprised this isn’t meta already

Are you talking about me? Because I think you might be talking about me.

It is great drawing the 2/3v1 to you while your team still feeds mid. :)

Really, I say, Viva la revolucion! Because nothing else will after this patch.

Nah I don’t think it was you, but necro is definitely most likely gonna be god tier or close after the patch

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

Lol no, no experience can foresee what will happen when basically the entire game's changed by 180 degrees.you foresee stuff by using your experience and comparing how one specific change will interact with an environment you already very familiar with, that's called foreseeing with experience, which u can not do when the environment it's self is changed and has become unfamiliar with you, which makes your experience invalid.and any speculation you make are just pure guessing, because current meta game will provide 0 info for the next patch.

not to mention when necro buff is already justified

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:@"ZDragon.3046"

I don't understand what you're not understanding about this.

  • Everyone's sustain factor is getting nerfed 33% or worse "Druid as example is getting CA skills cut by 50% again."Consider that druids CA skills are not meant to only be personal sustain and are group based skills which heal multiple people not just its own self which is not the same kind of sustain shroud provides. Shroud provides a partial sustain mechanic for the necormancer only. A big part of the problem with this game is professions relying on support skills that effect 5-10 players and using them selfishly for sustain which is why druid ever got nerfed in the wrong direction in the first place. Do not use this as means to try and justify group support based skills vs something that only sustains ones self.
  • Necro Shroud functions are sustain, don't act like it isn't. None of this is being touched at all.For the necromancer only not for 5-10 players around the necromancer. Im not going to act like its not because it is how ever thats not its only fuction and you shouldnt act like that is its only function or be comparing it to sustain tools that are realistically support tools which shroud is not.
  • Life steal/heal is also direct sustain, and it works in shroud. None of this is being touched at all. Blood line will become powerful. Not only is the sustain point not being touched, but the damage that comes off life steal is also not being touched, and it will prove be very strong with multi strike attacks in the next meta, such as Axe 2 or a well or Life Transfer. There is no CD on that life steal damage/heal.Which? There are only a few skills that heal in shroud most of which are tied to "Directly" attacking which the necromancer cannot do while cced in other words if you cc it then it cant life leech/steal. That was the whole point of reducing its stability access even more in the patch.

Vampiric and Vampiric aura are the only current ones that work in shroud and some how these are now too strong for where the game is going and will need reductions?Vampiric rituals also works in shroud if an enemy is standing on your wells (which ive already said could stand to get a reduction) This also fits they "support tool" being used for selfish sustain argument i made above and rightfully so it should see some reductions along with Vampiric Aura perhaps a best. Just that currently Vampiric aura amounts to so little hp healing over time in the current meta perhaps in the one going forward it might be appropriate for where they are aiming.

Again this patch was not to reduce everyone by an equal amount. that would just result in slowing the game down but leaving things relatively the same.For hypothetical example if Warrior was above thief in terms of damage, mobility and sustain and you nerf both by 33% then Warrior is still above thief in the same categories. You nerfed both and the end result is that nothing has changed the game just plays slower. I dont think you understand the term balance and that it means that to achieve it some will undoubtably be nerfed more than others. You cant expect to achieve balance by hitting everyone with the same reductions thats not how that works.

After 33% coefficient nerf, CD increases, massive loss in quick access/uptime, and hard CCs going to 0 damage, we'll be seeing about a 40% to 50% universal cut to DPS intra-class wide. After testing Core Necro specs and even Reaper/Scourge in the past 3-4 days myself, I can say that this cut in damage will easily push the sustain factor of any Necro through the roof. Furthermore its damage will become dangerous while using the blood line, when everyone else's sustain and damage is hit by 33%, but blood life steal/heal is untouched.

First you were on about how Carrion is top dps now you are on about how blood magic makes necromancer broken... Trevor you are all over the place here.The fact that it takes a (estimated but not yet confirmed) 40-50 percent cut in dps for you to consider necromancer sustain to high says a lot even more so considering its sustain in the current meta on most builds is not very high. However you were not willing to accept other players saying that rangers damage was too high before now. IF some one had come to you and said some months ago ranger's damage is 50% too high you would have told them its a learn 2 play issue or that its just the quickness up time but the damage is fine.

Oh and incase you are worried about "not having enough fear", discover Rune Of The Sunless. Summon Golem = Fear, right into Golem CC knockdown = Enormously powerful CC chain. And after the initial summon, each time you make the Golem Charge, he will fear the person first from a rather large radius, and then proceed to hit them with the follow knockdown. 45s CD, perfect for Golem Charge CD.

This is actually creative idea but its not something ive seen done often at all, but tell me how is this any different from (to name a few)Basilisk Venom - Sunless rune - Attack for stunFacet of Chaos - Sunless rune - Chaotic ReleaseRampage - Sunless rune - any rampage skillEntangle - Sunless rune - any other cc

You could combine this rune so many ways across a wide number of professions you literally cherry picked this into the argument without considering that other professions could also use this rune with similar results

And this kitten about "no stability/prot uptime" and "not enough stun breaks" is bologna. I was using Blood line with Well Heal for over saturated heal factor due to life siphon and the trait in Spite that also consumes conditions upon use. Not only is this an absurd amount of heal factor but it also grants protection. You use the Well that grants Stability and is a stun break, for even more life siphon & stab & stun break. Then you use Plague Signet to deal with your condis and grant another stun break. This is very powerful with Spite Sig Trait, super fast recharge for the stun break an the condi clearing. It's seriously all you need for condi clear if you know how to aim and use skills at the right time. Between Well that grants stun break & stab, and Plague Sig, that's all you need for stun breaks and stab. Then you can use the Sig of Undeath. Run Barbarian or Paladin Amulet, with Sunless or either Rune of Eagle or Rune of Speed as alternatives. You want to use Axe/Warhorn as primary weapon set, then the 2nd is optional. Of course you want to run Death Magic for the toughness stacking and power stacking. Spite/Death/Blood. <- This build is already strong as hell. After this patch, it'll be in contestation for sure as the dominant side node.

Ok first of all no one ever said there was not protection up time you made that bit up yourselfThe no stability up time is very much true though.

Which well grants stability that can actually be used to fend off a cc Tervor?Well of power? The stunbreak "with a cast time" (bad design btw) that was often interrupted by cc chains so anet instead of making the well an instant stunbreak (like most other stunbreaks) put 1s application of stability to cover its cast time? That one? DO NOT i repeat DO NOT try to word it like the well pulses stability cause it does not do that and if you failed to notice that it means you have not been playing necromancer long enough.

Moving on to your Spite / Death / Blood argument.This a strong bunker build but it lacks any real power especially if you run it with Barbarian or Paladin Amulet Which would dismiss your high dps while being tanky claims earlier. Ive ran this build before and even found a better version of it that what you are describing here and it still can be killed at the moment by any one person with high power burst dps 2 people ore more easily will melt it if it is stuck to the range of a capture point if you have any intention of defending it.

Seriously though as i said at best some of the passive life force gain increases like Fear of death and even signet of Undeath could get nerfed as needed the future.

I don't think some of you people are recognizing how much damage rolls off of casting Warhorn 5 + Well Heal + Well of Stab + Go into Shroud and 4. Seriously, the sustain that comes of that is larger than the actual heal skill, and the damage is pretty equivalent to a Reaper sin to win 4.Warhorn 5 use to be stronger tervor lets not even go there lolWell of stab? Are you making memes now?There is no way you have been playing necro long enough to know how it really feels to get nuked immediately on anything thats not the bunker setup.

I honestly believe some of these Necro players are pigeonholed into train of thought of "I must use these certain skills because that is always what has been good." Branch off and try new things. Some of this stuff will soon be busted in terms of sustain factor.No necro players are pingion holed into using certain skills because not everyone wants to be a darn bunker tank and thats a play style only few really enjoy. Most importantly core necormancer has always lacked offensive pressure that reaper and even scourge at one point had and it was naturally pushed into a more tanky position.

The fact that people even started tinkering with core was due to the over culling of scourge making near impossible to play in solo q. which allowed boon professions like firebrand, boon beast, etc to dominate cause they had nothing that could stop or suppress them like scourge could. Core was the next best option and hinges on players boons and boon corruption (for the most part) for is current viability. Both of which are being nerfed in the coming patch.

Most people will take the damage option if you give them one though unlike every other profession who has damage options with insane sustain via not only healing but also through blocks, evades, invulns, stealth, etc necro does not have the latter making a MASSIVE GAP between its sustain with offensive builds compared to the other professions.

Seriously try playing something thats not the bunker build you made up before the patch hits and you will realize how spoiled you have been while playing things like soulbeast meta.

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@"lighter.2708" said:

@"Dadnir.5038" said:

Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

Lol no, no experience can foresee what will happen when basically the entire game's changed by 180 degrees.you foresee stuff by using your experience and comparing how one specific change will interact with an environment you already very familiar with, that's called foreseeing with experience, which u can not do when the environment it's self is changed and has become unfamiliar with you, which makes your experience invalid.

Well, you're worng, it's easy to foresee that the necromancer fair better in a "low damage" environment because experience already proved it. It's simple, a necromancer survive a lot better alone against an unorganized zerg (without boons) than against an organized zerg (with boons). It's basically the difference that the necromancer will face after the coefficient are touch but not it's sustain. Everything he will face will just feel like it got no boons (when they will be full buffed) while it's own sustain will be the same.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:

Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

Lol no, no experience can foresee what will happen when basically the entire game's changed by 180 degrees.you foresee stuff by using your experience and comparing how one specific change will interact with an environment you already very familiar with, that's called foreseeing with experience, which u can not do when the environment it's self is changed and has become unfamiliar with you, which makes your experience invalid.

Well, you're worng, it's easy to foresee that the necromancer fair better in a "low damage" environment because experience already proved it. It's simple, a necromancer survive a lot better alone against an unorganized zerg (without boons) than against an organized zerg (with boons).

All HP and toughness will be better in a "low damage" environment, what's your point, start shaving HP and tough for all classes by 30%?and not like necro's one of counter pressure is boon corrupting or anythingand tell me who doesn't survive better against an unorganized zerg than against an organized zerg

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"lighter.2708" said:

Sure it's speculation. However, with experience you can easily foresee what will happen. Just like it was easy to foresee that the change on the shade mechanism when they did it would be overkill in sPvP and PvE while it would need further nerfs in WvW. Just like when they release the runes effect that synergized well with barrier trait players already knew that it would be broken beyond belief.

Just just need a minimum grasp of the game to predict what will happen. In case of the necromancer, even with all it's healing value reduced by 33% he would still see it's survivability effectively buffed by the damage reduction. Without, it's healing value reduced, it's foreseeable that he will be beyond everyone in sustain.

Lol no, no experience can foresee what will happen when basically the entire game's changed by 180 degrees.you foresee stuff by using your experience and comparing how one specific change will interact with an environment you already very familiar with, that's called foreseeing with experience, which u can not do when the environment it's self is changed and has become unfamiliar with you, which makes your experience invalid.

Well, you're worng, it's easy to foresee that the necromancer fair better in a "low damage" environment because experience already proved it. It's simple, a necromancer survive a lot better alone against an unorganized zerg (without boons) than against an organized zerg (with boons). It's basically the difference that the necromancer will face after the coefficient are touch but not it's sustain. Everything he will face will just feel like it got no boons (when they will be full buffed) while it's own sustain will be the same.

Once again to some extent Dadnir is not wrong

If it was just boons the necro sustain would be even better than what it is now with just a few corrupts successfully landing but thats not the case in a lot of situations.Necro does better in a low damage meta because the gap between damage soaking and damage evasion lowered.Damage soaking right now is not very viable because there is a finite number of times you would want to soak an 8k or 10k hit and doing so especially with something like shroud can chunk a massive amount of its total value based on the players vitality. Even with the damage reduction an 8k hit which is not hard for many professions to achieve in the current meta would roughly cost 4k shroud which can be anywhere from a 4th or a 5th of the total bar. Couple this with natural decay and if you are not 100% topped out in a lot of cases its very easy for many professions to burst a necromancers shroud off of them. But then you have people saying that life force gain is too high when alot of skills might not even generate what is lost in a single incoming hit in some cases.

In a lower damage meta the impact on how much life force is lost from incoming damage is reduced allowing necromancers to take a larger number of hits which in a nutshell provides greater sustain by closing the gap between damage soaking (which it was more designed for) in comparison to damage evasion or blocking (which necro cannot do effectively but everyone else can)

In the distant past people had a tendency to play around necromancers especially smaller fights with strategic moves this has long sense been forgotten as damage and boons scaled up because you didnt have to do those things anymore.There use to be specific strats/tips for dealing with necromancers especially in smaller situations like 1v1 or even 2v1 settings

  • dont hit them too much while spectral armor is up if you can help it (but by all means dont let them hit you for free)
  • do not blow all your burst into their shroud especially if the shroud meter is high (which was case by case kinda thing based on your profession)
  • cc the necromancer in shroud to prevent them from being able to attack (They are a pingpong ball and cant do anything about it)
  • burst them hard when shroud goes down
  • Do not use skills which grant stability unless you want to potentially be punished for it
  • Do not expect the fight to be ez if you are an ele because chill is a natural counter to ele's rotation (fight at your own risk or be smart about it)

People dont follow these strategies now because the power creep lets you get by without. Even if necro gets more reductions in the future which it likely will due to complaints of specific builds i hope people will likely still have to get use to adopting these strategies again the game should require people to actively think and not just passively win based on who has the most one shot/ burst potential on auto pilot mode

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I don't understand how this thread has 3 pages when the patch notes specifically say Foot in the Grave is being removed. If the necro is core, they are -absolutely free cc wise in shroud.- Even doom cannot interrupt you because it has a cast time now.

You nail them with any daze or stun, they have to take the whole duration or drop shroud. Their sustain is far more exploitable than anyone else's at this time, even with the duration nerf, because of that stability cut.

Not to mention their utilities for generating shroud got touched as well.

Let them have the shroud. If it's too much out of the gate when we can actually have data on it, then we can start asking for shaves to it. Even if the shaves take a long time, then let them be busted levels of tanky for this iteration. They can't outsustain stunlocking.

Necro.Was.Underperforming.Before.

They had the hardest matchups in the game and they -still- got some QoL cuts. We built a whole focusing paradigm around them because of how easy to dispatch they were in a team fight.

Just because everyone took a sustain hit does not mean they have to take a hit for thematic consistency, if they were underperforming before. Balance is the goal here. Do not forget that.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Well of Stab

Just quipping well of power doesn't work like that. You get one stack of stab. one. for one second. to cover the fact that breakstun has a cast time.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Running Plague Signet with Signets of Suffering

You sure about that? You're getting the whole stack if you pull a stack off someone, you're pulling two of them every 3 seconds, and you can't turn it off when in shroud. If anything condi-leaning sneezes within earshot you're going to find your shroud evaporating.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Running Plague Signet with Signets of Suffering

You sure about that? You're getting the whole stack if you pull a stack off someone, you're pulling two of them every 3 seconds, and you can't turn it off when in shroud. If anything condi-leaning sneezes within earshot you're going to find your shroud evaporating.

Yeah, you use it before you go into shroud, that's the point, so that the shroud super recharges the stun break and cleanse. This is good rotation because the Plague Signet instantly refreshes your 30 stacks of carapace, which with Paladin Amulet = over 3000 armor value and PULSING PROTECTION. You actually want condis to go on you for this reason.

I actually should make a video of this build I've been running. I don't know about conquest games, but in 1v1s this build wins over the course of time or at the very least, completely stalls a node. Post patch this build will be powerful.

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Running Plague Signet with Signets of Suffering

You sure about that? You're getting the whole stack if you pull a stack off someone, you're pulling two of them every 3 seconds, and you can't turn it off when in shroud. If anything condi-leaning sneezes within earshot you're going to find your shroud evaporating.

Yeah, you use it before you go into shroud, that's the point, so that the shroud super recharges the stun break and cleanse. This is good rotation because the Plague Signet instantly refreshes your 30 stacks of carapace, which with Paladin Amulet = over 3000 armor value and PULSING PROTECTION. You actually want condis to go on you for this reason.Please re-read the signet trait. Even when your signet is on cooldown, then the passive will work in shroud and pull two condis every 3 seconds. So you have a 100% passive uptime when you plan to use it right before shroud. And you will constantly pull every trash flying around. 10s of chill, 20 vulnerability stacks, 10s of cripple, 10 bleeds, 15 torments, 5 burns ... signet necro: the lottery build.

Traited plague signet kills you in every situation that is not a 1v1. This is one of the tradeoffs of the undeniably strong but situational signet trait.

Side note: The rez signet cooldown bug has to be fixed as soon as possible. The current 11s shroud cooldown is insane. If it worked correctly the cooldown would be 19s, which is a much harder to achieve shroud camping time.

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  • 2 weeks later...

This is music to my ears, the sweet sounds of tears from all those players that had thier untouchable professions in battle, mesmers, warriors, scrapper, FB's playing EZ mode classes using necros that were kept naked of all blocks, evades, invunerbility and mobility because "It had a 2nd life bar" as thier easy kill ego booster.

Well the wheel of fortunes have turned my friends, necros are not your free kill anymore - get used to karma in the form of core necro! Stop being a bunch of hypocritical cry babies now that the shoe is on the other foot!

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@"James.1065" said:This is music to my ears, the sweet sounds of tears from all those players that had thier untouchable professions in battle, mesmers, warriors, scrapper, FB's playing EZ mode classes using necros that were kept naked of all blocks, evades, invunerbility and mobility because "It had a 2nd life bar" as thier easy kill ego booster.

Well the wheel of fortunes have turned my friends, necros are not your free kill anymore - get used to karma in the form of core necro! Stop being a bunch of hypocritical cry babies now that the shoe is on the other foot!

You know that they announced more frequent balance patches in the future?Lel.

Ive watched a necro in the pvp ffa arena facetank pretty much every other class without using his dodges, just standing in the same position. I dont think thats gonna be a thing for a long time.

Edit:quoted wrong guy, oops

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