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Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

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@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no? Considering the changes in the patch some unexpected out comes could occur and dp may not be as viable as they are now. Who knows really lol. Plus just cuz double anything won a tournament doesnt automatically mean it's broken op as theres a lot of variables like for example maybe the thieves out skilled a lot of the opponents or just the teams were better as a whole. If the next 6 tourney winners all have duel dp thieves then maybe it needs to be looked into.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

so its being justified because someone who is decent on thief did well with 4 other people on his team? Man I should start running pvp again, maybe my build will be considered OP lulz. Too bad couldn't use the excuse the other team just got outplayed because that would mean that skill was the determining factor no? Cant have skill in PvP as everyone is carried by their build :p :p :p

/sarcasm

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no?

Not really because literally nothing on the current thief/daredevil kit is being touched to the degree.. say meta rev is.

Like right now thief gets a bit of a cooldown increase on Withdraw, a bit of a healing nerf on Escapists Fortitude, the 30% damage nerf everything else is getting, and that's it while other meta builds are eating stuff like;

  • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
  • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
  • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
  • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds. Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
  • Shackling Wave: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1. Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
  • Riposting Shadows: Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
  • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1. Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
  • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
  • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

Thief is literally the most untouched class by the upcoming megabalance patch to the point where they've barely been touched at all and it's already so meta 6 of the top 10 are specifically maining Shadow Arts DP thief.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

All this is kinda irrelevant by months end no?

Not really because literally nothing on the current thief/daredevil kit is being touched to the degree.. say meta rev is.

Like right now thief gets a bit of a cooldown increase on Withdraw, a bit of a healing nerf on Escapists Fortitude, the 30% damage nerf everything else is getting, and that's it while other meta builds are eating stuff like;
  • Empty Vessel (Stunbreak on Legend Swap): This trait has been retired and been replaced by Contained Temper.
  • Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe.
  • Deathstrike: Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 0.33 to 0.1. Reduced second strike power coefficient from 2.0 to 1.7.
    Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 18 seconds
  • Unrelenting Assault: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.57 to 0.38. Reduced might duration per strike from 5 seconds to 3 seconds.
    Increased cooldown from 12 seconds to 15 seconds
  • Shackling Wave:
    Reduced initial strike power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.1
    . Increased vulnerability stacks from 8 to 12
  • Riposting Shadows:
    Increased energy cost from 30 to 40. Reduced endurance gain from 25 to 15
  • Warding Rift: Reduced power coefficient from 0.2 to 0.1.
    Increased cooldown from 15 seconds to 20 seconds
  • Surge of the Mists: Reduced power coefficient per strike from 0.18 to 0.001
  • Facet of Strength: Reduced might duration from 12 seconds to 6 seconds

Thief is literally the most untouched class by the upcoming megabalance patch to the point where they've barely been touched at all and it's already so meta 6 of the top 10 are specifically maining Shadow Arts DP thief.

+10

As Always, Excellent Work!! Mortrialus

SteZRWq.jpg

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So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said:I can honestly say that I don't know anyone who thought "huh, that leeching venoms is OP or over performing" or "Spider Venom is OP af, anet should nerf it".

There are more important "balance" changes that need to be looked at first for thief than some somewhat underutilized utilities.

Shadow Arts Double DP thief literally just won the January EU and NA MATs, dethroning all comps that carried a FB at all after literally three years of support FB defining PvP. The month before it was Double Daredevil that also dethroned team comps that carried a FB. On NA right now 6 of the top 10 are running Shadow Arts DP thief as their main.

What do you think suddenly changed?

A top streamer using assassins signet in a shadow arts build.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I never said they were being over nerfed? I dont think any thief players think that or at least I'd hope not. Most thieves posting are in defense of the communities predictable status quo of asking for even more thief nerfs before patch has even hit lol

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@Poledra Val.1490 said:The nerf to burst on thief is warranted its unquestionable. I personally want every class to be viable in some fashion in the meta, the more variety the healthier it is for pvp in general. I still feel that Stealth needs to have at least one drawback since pretty much some professions including thief has it on demand.

A thief has to use its global resource up to maintain perma stealth and loses its stacks accumulated after its next attack, that's not a drawback?

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

Some people can play well enough to not need instant/hard to catch as a safety net, though.

Yeah but without those I doubt acro would be worth if for a staff build

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:People may go back to the dancing monkey that is aceo/dd staff

Not if the two passive saves get 300 cd they wont. Acro be replaced with DA or CS

Some people can play well enough to not need instant/hard to catch as a safety net, though.

Yeah but without those I doubt acro would be worth if for a staff build

nobody uses the passive properly anyways, every time I proc it on thief they panic dodge 3+ times.I think I have met maybe 2 thiefs that actually used it properly in all my games.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst nearly that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and very low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

I can get 9000 with zerker/scholars and DA/CS/SA all pure dps burst but it's not always 9000. If u get boons on u from outside sources tho u can raise that higher but yeah 8000ish is average full power build backstab

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

on top of that you can do heartseeker combo by.p5->seeker->signet->Steal->backstab->m1.same thing but it also adds up seeker to the comboD/P would be much less of an issue if they fixed thief and their stupid model not appearing.I was always advocate of fixing bugs first and seeing how much of a change it makes, but it might be "unfixable" for the resource devs have + it doesnt affect pve.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is not hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

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