Nerf Thief

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

you are doing alot of disservice to all good players by saying its impossible to react withing 0,2s+plenty mesmer combos I have dodged reactively " when in the flow ".the combo, when done PERFECTLY has AT LEAS 250MS tell, this is when you do it frame perfect ( mesmer side ).the fact that most people cant dodge it doesnt mean that nobody can dodge it.play the build and you will meet people that have good reaction times and you will be suprised how often they it can be dodged, let alone predicted.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

If Mug is hitting for 5k, your opponent must be in WvW and not fully geared up. Basically the damage relation between Mug and backstab is roughly 1/4, its a bit more but only a smidgen. So if Mug is hitting for 5k, your backstabs would be hitting for 20k, and thats without Malice. Thats not doable without the enemy being an Ele in Green Gear. The burst is good in the meta, yes, but the thing is that it relies on being able to, well, burst for a good chunk. Post-patch, it wont.

Oh it will be bad. 25% damage nerf on backstab, 50% on Mug, That alone is your burst lowered by, what, 3-4k? And your follow-up is worse, too. Again, burst builds are reliant on good burst. Not all damage reduced is equal, and burst is hurt the hardest, even if the hits werent as hard. When your burst fails to seriously injure your target, it becomes really bad.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top crap.They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as fuck, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade crap and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

[Raiden The Beast.3016]

Can we get nerf all but teef

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

you are doing alot of disservice to all good players by saying its impossible to react withing 0,2s+plenty mesmer combos I have dodged reactively " when in the flow ".the combo, when done PERFECTLY has AT LEAS 250MS tell, this is when you do it frame perfect ( mesmer side ).the fact that most people cant dodge it doesnt mean that nobody can dodge it.play the build and you will meet people that have good reaction times and you will be suprised how often they it can be dodged, let alone predicted.

Im not. The average humans reaction time is .25 seconds. .2 is already really fast. And you need to be faster than that to be able to react to it, thanks to input delay, network delay and motor delay. You could in theory predict it, but only if you know the Mesmer is there, and you have a good read on when he is about to strike. But you cant react to it. Its literally physically impossible.

It has no Tell. Moves from stealth do not reveal you until they hit, with the specific (hard-coded) exception of Death's Judgment. So you can only react once the first Mirror Blade hit you. thing is, the burst only takes .2 seconds to finish after that, as the mirror blade bounces are practically instant, and so is Mind Wrack. Again, refer to previous statement. Its physically impossible to dodge it. Youd need a reaction time of, hm. Assuming good hardware and low network ping, Idk, 100ms reaction time? Fastest known reaction time is about140 ms. You have to be faster than is possible. Prediction is plausible, but only if the opponent knows youre even there, which they shouldnt.

I have played the build a lot during early HoT. I have never met a single person who was able to react, which of course knowing that its physically impossible was no surprise to me. I have also only met few who predicted it because the point was to stealth up and approach them without them knowing I was there.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

If Mug is hitting for 5k, your opponent must be in WvW and not fully geared up. Basically the damage relation between Mug and backstab is

roughly

1/4, its a bit more but only a smidgen. So if Mug is hitting for 5k, your backstabs would be hitting for 20k, and thats without Malice. Thats not doable without the enemy being an Ele in Green Gear. The burst is good in the meta, yes, but the thing is that it relies on being able to, well, burst for a good chunk. Post-patch, it wont.

Oh it will be bad. 25% damage nerf on backstab, 50% on Mug, That alone is your burst lowered by, what, 3-4k? And your follow-up is worse, too. Again, burst builds are reliant on good burst. Not all damage reduced is equal, and burst is hurt the hardest, even if the hits werent as hard. When your burst fails to seriously injure your target, it becomes really bad.I mean I agree with your analysis mostly but I mean I even have screen of one of the builds I commonly play in ranked which isn’t zerker and with normal meta traits. There every time I mug for my burst it’s minimum 4K on golems without any vuln besides from even the odds and like I said can be 5k on say light armor targets with conditions on them cuz of modifiers. For the dp sa build I could totally imagine 2.5k min a lot and it’ll probably go up commonly in matches cuz of conditions etc. as far as thief being bad I’m not sure- maybe 1 shot builds will be but thief has what at least 3 builds just under meta rn and non of them are pure burst builds, actually all 3 are more or less soft relatively that could possibly easily shine in a new meta, well see though

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

you are doing alot of disservice to all good players by saying its impossible to react withing 0,2s+plenty mesmer combos I have dodged reactively " when in the flow ".the combo, when done PERFECTLY has AT LEAS 250MS tell, this is when you do it frame perfect ( mesmer side ).the fact that most people cant dodge it doesnt mean that nobody can dodge it.play the build and you will meet people that have good reaction times and you will be suprised how often they it can be dodged, let alone predicted.

Im not. The average humans reaction time is .25 seconds. .2 is already

really

fast. And you need to be faster than that to be able to react to it, thanks to input delay, network delay and motor delay. You could in theory predict it, but only if you know the Mesmer is there, and you have a good read on when he is about to strike. But you cant react to it. Its literally

physically

impossible.

It has

no

Tell. Moves from stealth do not reveal you until they hit, with the specific (hard-coded) exception of Death's Judgment. So you can only react once the first Mirror Blade hit you. thing is, the burst only takes .2 seconds to finish after that, as the mirror blade bounces are practically instant, and so is Mind Wrack. Again, refer to previous statement. Its physically impossible to dodge it. Youd need a reaction time of, hm. Assuming good hardware and low network ping, Idk, 100ms reaction time? Fastest known reaction time is about140 ms. You have to be faster than is possible. Prediction is plausible, but only if the opponent knows youre even there, which they shouldnt.

I have played the build a lot during early HoT. I have never met a

single

person who was able to react, which of course knowing that its physically impossible was no surprise to me. I have also only met few who predicted it because the point was to stealth up and approach them without them knowing I was there.

first of all, gs2 is a projective so It appears mid air.sec of all gs3 has 0,25s cast time so at the very least its 250ms ( assuming done frame perfectly as I said ).now I have on average 50-60 ping. So mesmer that does the combo frame perfect gives me 190-200ms to react to it.realistically mesmer burst combo will give you 200-250ms to react to it when done right, so if you dont have lags and are focused you can dodge end of the combo.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

If Mug is hitting for 5k, your opponent must be in WvW and not fully geared up. Basically the damage relation between Mug and backstab is

roughly

1/4, its a bit more but only a smidgen. So if Mug is hitting for 5k, your backstabs would be hitting for 20k, and thats without Malice. Thats not doable without the enemy being an Ele in Green Gear. The burst is good in the meta, yes, but the thing is that it relies on being able to, well, burst for a good chunk. Post-patch, it wont.

Oh it will be bad. 25% damage nerf on backstab, 50% on Mug, That alone is your burst lowered by, what, 3-4k? And your follow-up is worse, too. Again, burst builds are reliant on good burst. Not all damage reduced is equal, and burst is hurt the hardest, even if the hits werent as hard. When your burst fails to seriously injure your target, it becomes really bad.I mean I agree with your analysis mostly but I mean I even have screen of one of the builds I commonly play in ranked which isn’t zerker and with normal meta traits. There every time I mug for my burst it’s minimum 4K on golems without any vuln besides from even the odds and like I said can be 5k on say light armor targets with conditions on them cuz of modifiers. For the dp sa build I could totally imagine 2.5k min a lot and it’ll probably go up commonly in matches cuz of conditions etc. as far as thief being bad I’m not sure- maybe 1 shot builds will be but thief has what at least 3 builds just under meta rn and non of them are pure burst builds, actually all 3 are more or less soft relatively that could possibly easily shine in a new meta, well see though

Golems have really low Toughness unfortunately. I mean depends on the golem, but youll get higher damage on them than on real targets. Its kind of a problem for testing. But no, D/P Thief doesnt get 2.5k on Mug in a real game at all. Its 1.5k usually, 2k on squishy targets, and it doesnt really go up from there.

1-shot builds will be bad, yeah. The problem with the other builds is a pretty straightforward one. The next meta is most likely going to be a condi bunker meta. None of thieves builds match well against that kind of meta, as their damage is too low to bust through the bunkers, and their survival against condi too poor to, well, survive the condi builds. There is however one build Im keeping my eye on as potentially powerful, Rifle Deadeye. Mainly because its one of the very few builds to get practically no nerfs to its damage. It took a hit to Death's Judgment, but you never hit that on enemies that arent AFK. It took one to Brutal Aim, but every auto got hit, and this auto was not that important. It took hits to Double Tap and Three Round Burst, but noone used those anyway as they suck. The one skill that the build used for damage, Skirmisher's Shot? That one took no nerf. So now Rifle DE might actually provide good ranged DPS against the condi builds. Well, assuming projectile Destruction isnt everywhere.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

you are doing alot of disservice to all good players by saying its impossible to react withing 0,2s+plenty mesmer combos I have dodged reactively " when in the flow ".the combo, when done PERFECTLY has AT LEAS 250MS tell, this is when you do it frame perfect ( mesmer side ).the fact that most people cant dodge it doesnt mean that nobody can dodge it.play the build and you will meet people that have good reaction times and you will be suprised how often they it can be dodged, let alone predicted.

Im not. The average humans reaction time is .25 seconds. .2 is already

really

fast. And you need to be faster than that to be able to react to it, thanks to input delay, network delay and motor delay. You could in theory predict it, but only if you know the Mesmer is there, and you have a good read on when he is about to strike. But you cant react to it. Its literally

physically

impossible.

It has

no

Tell. Moves from stealth do not reveal you until they hit, with the specific (hard-coded) exception of Death's Judgment. So you can only react once the first Mirror Blade hit you. thing is, the burst only takes .2 seconds to finish after that, as the mirror blade bounces are practically instant, and so is Mind Wrack. Again, refer to previous statement. Its physically impossible to dodge it. Youd need a reaction time of, hm. Assuming good hardware and low network ping, Idk, 100ms reaction time? Fastest known reaction time is about140 ms. You have to be faster than is possible. Prediction is plausible, but only if the opponent knows youre even there, which they shouldnt.

I have played the build a lot during early HoT. I have never met a

single

person who was able to react, which of course knowing that its physically impossible was no surprise to me. I have also only met few who predicted it because the point was to stealth up and approach them without them knowing I was there.

first of all, gs2 is a projective so It appears mid air.sec of all gs3 has 0,25s cast time so at the very least its 250ms ( assuming done frame perfectly as I said ).now I have on average 50-60 ping. So mesmer that does the combo frame perfect gives me 190-200ms to react to it.realistically mesmer burst combo will give you 200-250ms to react to it when done right, so if you dont have lags and are focused you can dodge end of the combo.

Yeah, it is a projectile, but its a projectile that in that case has to travel 0 distance. It effectively just hits instantly. Youre right that GS3 has a cast time, but the thing is that GS3 is not a big part of the burst. You can dodge it, but none of the parts that come prior, and those are the ones that hurt hard. So you can dodge that part, but youll still be dead before you can since the other parts killed you.

Though that being said, even if we include GS3, as you say, you get 190-200ms to react to it, which has to include input delay and motor delay. Lets say thats about 30ms. Thats 160-170 ms. Which is extremely fast, and beyond the limits of most people. Thats something like the top .5% of people who can react that fast. So even that isnt very realistic.

[UNOwen.7132]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from. Anyway, the damage ratios are as stated, I basically base the damage of the other things on backstab, and the damage of backstab on what Ive seen people hit it for.

[Dantheman.3589]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

If Mug is hitting for 5k, your opponent must be in WvW and not fully geared up. Basically the damage relation between Mug and backstab is

roughly

1/4, its a bit more but only a smidgen. So if Mug is hitting for 5k, your backstabs would be hitting for 20k, and thats without Malice. Thats not doable without the enemy being an Ele in Green Gear. The burst is good in the meta, yes, but the thing is that it relies on being able to, well, burst for a good chunk. Post-patch, it wont.

Oh it will be bad. 25% damage nerf on backstab, 50% on Mug, That alone is your burst lowered by, what, 3-4k? And your follow-up is worse, too. Again, burst builds are reliant on good burst. Not all damage reduced is equal, and burst is hurt the hardest, even if the hits werent as hard. When your burst fails to seriously injure your target, it becomes really bad.I mean I agree with your analysis mostly but I mean I even have screen of one of the builds I commonly play in ranked which isn’t zerker and with normal meta traits. There every time I mug for my burst it’s minimum 4K on golems without any vuln besides from even the odds and like I said can be 5k on say light armor targets with conditions on them cuz of modifiers. For the dp sa build I could totally imagine 2.5k min a lot and it’ll probably go up commonly in matches cuz of conditions etc. as far as thief being bad I’m not sure- maybe 1 shot builds will be but thief has what at least 3 builds just under meta rn and non of them are pure burst builds, actually all 3 are more or less soft relatively that could possibly easily shine in a new meta, well see though

Golems have really low Toughness unfortunately. I mean depends on the golem, but youll get higher damage on them than on real targets. Its kind of a problem for testing. But no, D/P Thief doesnt get 2.5k on Mug in a real game at all. Its 1.5k usually, 2k on squishy targets, and it doesnt really go up from there.

1-shot builds will be bad, yeah. The problem with the other builds is a pretty straightforward one. The next meta is most likely going to be a condi bunker meta. None of thieves builds match well against that kind of meta, as their damage is too low to bust through the bunkers, and their survival against condi too poor to, well, survive the condi builds. There is however one build Im keeping my eye on as potentially powerful, Rifle Deadeye. Mainly because its one of the

very

few builds to get practically no nerfs to its damage. It took a hit to Death's Judgment, but you never hit that on enemies that arent AFK. It took one to Brutal Aim, but every auto got hit, and this auto was not that important. It took hits to Double Tap and Three Round Burst, but noone used those anyway as they suck. The one skill that the build used for damage, Skirmisher's Shot? That one took no nerf. So now Rifle DE might actually provide good ranged DPS against the condi builds. Well, assuming projectile Destruction isnt everywhere.

Actually when some ppl make post worrying about condition bunkers I’ve recommended rifle DE. If it’s a condition bunker meta, not sure maybe condition thief, but honestly those nerfs looked pretty damn significant to me so maybe it’ll be ok but not great or the normal sword dagger build with condition clear passives since there might be projectile destruction. Well see but I’m hoping and also guessing thief will hopefully survive

[UNOwen.7132]

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Also if you don't have boons, like if you get jumped on the roads rotating from one point to the next, backstab fears you for good measure.

Idk I’ve seen mug damage hit like 4K commonly and up as high as 5k, but maybe it’s cuz I’m playing like bound a lot. Either way burst on thief is pretty dang good in this meta, especially when u consider there’s builds that can perma stealth and some that can dodge a lot, though I don’t really think the burst on the pw dodge build is super high that’s more op cuz of sustain and cc.Here’s my opinion, mug nerfed 50%, power coefficients lowered a lot also condition on thief nerfed a lot, but burst shouldn’t be too bad(with a grain of salt) also they increased a few modifiers. I’m pretty sure thief will be decent and some of the nerfed cds, like withdraw won’t really be that high impact except the ones on acro, which will make a difference but I still think those traits will be 100% usable

If Mug is hitting for 5k, your opponent must be in WvW and not fully geared up. Basically the damage relation between Mug and backstab is

roughly

1/4, its a bit more but only a smidgen. So if Mug is hitting for 5k, your backstabs would be hitting for 20k, and thats without Malice. Thats not doable without the enemy being an Ele in Green Gear. The burst is good in the meta, yes, but the thing is that it relies on being able to, well, burst for a good chunk. Post-patch, it wont.

Oh it will be bad. 25% damage nerf on backstab, 50% on Mug, That alone is your burst lowered by, what, 3-4k? And your follow-up is worse, too. Again, burst builds are reliant on good burst. Not all damage reduced is equal, and burst is hurt the hardest, even if the hits werent as hard. When your burst fails to seriously injure your target, it becomes really bad.I mean I agree with your analysis mostly but I mean I even have screen of one of the builds I commonly play in ranked which isn’t zerker and with normal meta traits. There every time I mug for my burst it’s minimum 4K on golems without any vuln besides from even the odds and like I said can be 5k on say light armor targets with conditions on them cuz of modifiers. For the dp sa build I could totally imagine 2.5k min a lot and it’ll probably go up commonly in matches cuz of conditions etc. as far as thief being bad I’m not sure- maybe 1 shot builds will be but thief has what at least 3 builds just under meta rn and non of them are pure burst builds, actually all 3 are more or less soft relatively that could possibly easily shine in a new meta, well see though

Golems have really low Toughness unfortunately. I mean depends on the golem, but youll get higher damage on them than on real targets. Its kind of a problem for testing. But no, D/P Thief doesnt get 2.5k on Mug in a real game at all. Its 1.5k usually, 2k on squishy targets, and it doesnt really go up from there.

1-shot builds will be bad, yeah. The problem with the other builds is a pretty straightforward one. The next meta is most likely going to be a condi bunker meta. None of thieves builds match well against that kind of meta, as their damage is too low to bust through the bunkers, and their survival against condi too poor to, well, survive the condi builds. There is however one build Im keeping my eye on as potentially powerful, Rifle Deadeye. Mainly because its one of the

very

few builds to get practically no nerfs to its damage. It took a hit to Death's Judgment, but you never hit that on enemies that arent AFK. It took one to Brutal Aim, but every auto got hit, and this auto was not that important. It took hits to Double Tap and Three Round Burst, but noone used those anyway as they suck. The one skill that the build used for damage, Skirmisher's Shot? That one took no nerf. So now Rifle DE might actually provide good ranged DPS against the condi builds. Well, assuming projectile Destruction isnt everywhere.

Actually when some ppl make post worrying about condition bunkers I’ve recommended rifle DE. If it’s a condition bunker meta, not sure maybe condition thief, but honestly those nerfs looked pretty kitten significant to me so maybe it’ll be ok but not great or the normal sword dagger build with condition clear passives since there might be projectile destruction. Well see but I’m hoping and also guessing thief will hopefully survive

I dont think S/D Thief will be very good. I mean if its Mesmer thats the condi build yes, because Consume Plasma is still bonkers, but Im expecting a bursty kind of condi build to be the default, and S/D doesnt match very well against it. Rifle DE should be good if Projectile Destruction isnt around (you just Spam Skirmishers Shot with Malificent Seven and never kneel because kneeling is bad). Though personally Im more on the Grenade Engie Hypetrain, if nothing else then just for the reason that I havent played Nade Engineer in years and I thoroughly miss it. I fear it still wont be good, but I really hope it will be.

[Crackmonster.2790]

Filthy animals, thieves are!!

Mechanically, psychologically.

Everywhere now trying to slither their way to lessened nerf when they are already the most op and get the least nerfs. Luckily people are brushing their misdirections and misleadings off. Everyone is tired of thief laming.

[Ashimmu.4219]

I agree - don't forget about thieves - need nerf.Alternatively, you can do something about stealth, so attacking without penalties being cloaked will go away.Thanks.

[Burnfall.9573]

https://i.imgur.com/xwADOsH.gifv

The question we should all be asking is; why was Thief designed to be a designated Toxic Profession?

In their defense, didn't you find something wrong with their roles... to spread Toxicity everywhere they go, was already decided long before they could even comprehend what is going on?

That by putting Thief Profession in a pedestal would not mark them as the most hated profession?

That by giving illusions that they get equal fair nerfs that it would remain so without ever displaying Partial-Treatment= Favoritism?

That by designing them to specifically target a Scapegoat Profession? Yes, there is a designated Scapegoat Profession and that is Necromancer

There is a agenda behind all of this and it is continually being challenged.

I feel your pain Thief Profession; Toxicity was forced on you long before you were created and for causing you to take all the blame for it

yeah!! i am truly sorry.....that you were set-up by design to be hated :(

[mortrialus.3062]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst

nearly

that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and

very

low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is

not

hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

[Shao.7236]

If one can evade spam safely there's no reason to reward it so much. That's why Escapist needs it's ICD increased to 2 or 3 seconds, in the current patch that is.

Digress until the new patch drop to see if evade spamming will even be viable anyway.

What really needs to be addressed right now is the inability to avoid Stealth Attacks. Those need reveals upon channeling in at around ¾ so that people have a reactive chance. Those are always guaranteed damage at a random time, even Stealth Attack from a burst mes are more fair though they could use a reveal too for the more casual/laggy players.

[Crab Fear.1624]

The post goes from complaining about

Infiltrator's Strike.Escapists Fortitude.Smoke Screen.Leeching Venoms

to just an all around generalized thief complaint thread.

[storm.3120]

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:All I see in this thread is Mesmers and Necromancers reminding us they hate thief.Log in to talk to few people and absolutely everyone hate thieves. OP class getting the hate, reminds me...something purple...Your arrival at mesmer thread proves that you hate mesmers as well, especially with bs you wrote there.https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1150025/#Comment_1150025OP explained why it should get a nerf and your best argument is "they are just hate my main, its fine" ?never having honest intentionsBiased thief mains in this thread

[Leonidrex.5649]

thief police arrived, run you fools!

[Psycoprophet.8107]

All I can say is boy I guess it stings when u get out played by better players especially when its ur counter.Get gud!

Buff teef!

[noot.8641]

Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@noot.8641 said:Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

I wouldnt stress bout it the post are always the same few mesmer/necro players which thief happenes to counter, usual filled with hyperbole and unrealistic numbers and scenario's. I'm sure anet knows to ignore most of the thief hate posts by now thankfully.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Crab Fear.1624" said:All I see in this thread is Mesmers and Necromancers reminding us they hate thief.Log in to talk to few people and absolutely everyone hate thieves. OP class getting the hate, reminds me...something purple...Your arrival at mesmer thread proves that you hate mesmers as well, especially with bs you wrote there.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1150025/#Comment_1150025

OP explained why it should get a nerf and your best argument is "they are just hate my main, its fine" ?never having honest intentionsBiased thief mains in this thread

I made valid arguments, not just qq.

More than half the claims in this thread are straight lies lmao.