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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

delusional lolwish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5kor 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Oh if only it was 1s. In truth, the combo (unless youre going full combo which is excessive) takes .2 seconds. Meaning you have .16 seconds (roughly) to react to it. Spoiler:
very
few people have reaction times faster than .2 seconds. Its something like .5%.

we are talking about different combo.

So u guys have more than one crazy high burst combo that completed basically instantly? Must be nice :)

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

First of all, if a Warrior got you to half health off of just that one spin, then the Mesmers you faced shouldve all oneshot you (well beyond even, should be something around 1.7 times your health they did in damage). Second of all, how did you get hit by 4 impacts of GS3. You dont have the kitten hitbox that PvE enemies have, so you had to walk alongside it, and be fast enough in doing so.

This is what I mean, unrealistic hyperbole blind bias. If a warrior gor a mesmer to half health in one whirlwind ud have to be against a structure or something. I play warrior a lot these days and even when full of might gs3 thru a mirage does not take it to half hp, 2nd their almost impossible to hard cc and u as the warrior actually built for sturdiness can in fact be taken to almost downstate by said mirage in one burst so quit complaining, ur getting outplayed by ur counter simple as that.

delusional lolwish I was taking screenshots of all the dodges that crit me for 5kor 13k arcing slices throught 3k toughness3k/tick gs3 or all the gs4 throws for 4k/tick25might is cancer, warrior has ALOT of overtuned stat bonuses that makes their farts hit like a truck and pretending that gs3 if landed properly doesnt chunk people is simply lying.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I know the combo.gs4-> gs2->blink->f3->mantra->f1->gs3thats 7 abilities, if anything its sad that he can land all 7 and ONLY do 3/4 of your HP.

EDITmesmers damage is not the issue, its the fact that they can overlap several skills over eachother, becouse almost everything hits with a delay.if I use gs4 then follow up with gs3 and then shatter, you get hit by 3 skills in the same frame for big damage. and people dont even realise that you got hit by 3 skills and not 1 or 2. for every mesmer that burst me for 3/4 HP I had 10 warriors that did 1/2 my HP with lucky 4x crit gs3 spin ( 8s cd btw ).

I dont care how many skills it takes if it can be completed in under a second that's a burst just like any other, quit using that as a excuse as its hitting the opponent seemingly instantly. A thief could say their burst takes 15 skill if including all the black powder, smoke screen, heart seekers, steal and finally backstab if were just throwing timeframes of burst completion out the window.

if you cant dodge 1s windup combo go play tetris and not action game.

Oh if only it was 1s. In truth, the combo (unless youre going full combo which is excessive) takes .2 seconds. Meaning you have .16 seconds (roughly) to react to it. Spoiler:
very
few people have reaction times faster than .2 seconds. Its something like .5%.

we are talking about different combo.

So u guys have more than one crazy high burst combo that completed basically instantly? Must be nice :)

we call it combo, other classes call it 2 abilities.some even call it 3 autoattacks

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@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

@noot.8641 said:Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

Why do people keep using this argument? It doesnt work. The devs don't care about the status quo. Did you see the patch?

@UNOwen.7132 said:In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

you can hit 9k on mara vs a glass or mara target. Shadow Arts damage buffs is exactly why they can, now.There's even a sleeper build that hits for higher than that on Deadeye, but not gonna talk about that because it trades surprise for damage.It's getting nerfed anyway so meh.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-50%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well, this much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?

Edit: Oh and for fun, lets take a look at Rabid Undead. First of all its of course not true that this is the highest toughness. That would be Cavalier, which has 300 more Toughness. But thats not important, noone runs Cavalier. So, compared to the 1924, thats an extra 900 armor from the Rabid Amulet, and an extra 225 from Undead Runes. So, their total Armor increases from 1924 to 3049 armor. Lets do the math again. 5900*2322/3049=4493, and 6900*2322/3049=5254. Once again, a whole lot less than 6.7k. Something doesnt add up.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)
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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.Not like I really thought about lead attacks at that moment, he just asked me to do exact that combo and see if he still would be alive (situation with drd was the same). Would you reject the fact that is perfectly doable in combat? If yes, can we delete it? ;)
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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.

Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for more than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.

Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for
more
than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?
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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.

Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for
more
than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having much lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.

Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for
more
than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having
much
lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.So, basically, after showing you that the mesmer I asked have armor (which you can see, unless you are blind) and stabbed with meta build = being accused in lying ? How does it even work?
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@Odik.4587 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.
First dps log on rabid amu undead runes, needless to say he is almost dead anyway?The second on marauder pistol 5+2 into BS.3rd on marauder without hs'ing into backstab.Isnt achievable ? Really?

Ok Im not sure what Im seeing here, but just to start, how the hell do you have that much variance on the damage. If 2 and 3 are on the same target (which it seems to be), then there is no way your backstab should be doing nearly twice the damage. The same is true for steal, that one is fluctuating way too hard as well. Did they just take off their armour to lower their defense stat? Because the second one, the 6.6k damage is what you should be expecting. And 11k is just not doable without taking off armour .

If you have EYES you can see that salad with ARMOR on. I even shown you my traitlines Im running. Fresh screen of backstabbing DAREDEVIL, see the same link, added 1 more screen 10k on medium armored target, enjoy. Feel free to accuse me in photoshoping, in paint xD

What I can see is Damage Number Fluctuations that arent possible. Damage in GW2 does fluctuate, but only by 10% at max. Yours fluctuated by 20-
50
%. Something isnt right. In fact, I can even show that using the medium golem, and the damage formula. So in essence, the way damage works is its your total damage (which is a more complicated formula I wont get into here), divided by your Armor, which is equivalent to your Defense + your Toughness. Light Classes have 1924 Armor by default, while medium have 2029. The Medium Target Golem has 2322 (turns out I was slightly incorrect, its less damage than on glass, but more damage than on tankier builds). So then, how much damage does the Medium Target Golem take? Well,
much. 5.9-6.9k. So, how much damage does that translate to for the other classes? Thankfully, the math is easy. We take 5.9k-6.9k, multiply it with 2322, then divide it by their armor. For Medium, thats 5900*2322/2024=6768 to 6900*2322/2024=7915. For Light, its 5900*2322/1924=7.12k to 6900*2322/1924=8327. Note that even the higher end of damage fluctuation doesnt reach 9k. So, how exactly did you get over 10k?Obviously I'm using assasins signet? Give me 500g(for my efforts to make and upload it) and I will make a video instead of screenshots, deal ? ;)

And if you looked at my screenshots, obviously I am using Assassin's Signet as well. Thats where I got my numbers from. And still, the damage doesnt add up. Yours is a lot higher than is at all possible. You would need some kind of additional damage multipliers to reach the damage youre getting, or an armor value below minimum. I cant tell which it is, but I can tell that it is one of those.Mr.thicchead. I'm stabbing real players, not golems with overblown armor values? My backstab on the golem is the same as yours. (p.s I dont have eagle rune, its scholar, just in case you are lost there)

Something Im accounting for, thats why I take the golem damage, and show what the highest possible player damage is. Their "overblown armor values" are only 15% higher than that of real players. Which means that players only take 15% more damage than the golems. Yet somehow in your case players are taking
50
% more damage. So if your damage on golems is the same, then that means that something was up with the players. But, just to be sure, I used that little arena in Heart of the Mists to test it. Even when I was targetting a glass thief. Even with me stacking up Lead Attack and them being below 50% turning on both the Eagle and Executioner damage multiplier (I dont like Improvisation much). Even with all of that, I only managed to crack 9k. Even if you switched the thief for a Mes (which adds about 5% damage), thats still only 9.4k. And thats the absolute maximum ceiling you can get, short of shenanigans. Yet somehow, you managed to
exceed
that ceiling without even having the 20% damage multiplier from Executioner. Thats just literally not possible without shenanigans.Lol, you could actually see that in all this cases I was engaged in combat from using pistol 5 into HS which proc'd lead attacks. Pistol5+hs=9 stacks.You could see that was on the screen too.

Which is 9% extra damage. Which would even fail to make up for the 20% damage from executioner and 5% damage from Eagle over Scholar. That is, if I didnt stack for
more
than 9 lead attack stacks. Which still leaves us with the same issue. You did considerably more damage than I did while having considerably lower damage multipliers overall. Which, again, not really possible. Not without Shenanigans at least.Weapon strenght isnt fixed number and exactly why damage is inconsistent. Still, 500g and I'm making a video, les go?

Correct, it isnt fixed and the damage is inconsistent. It fluctuates by about 5-10%. You still exceeded the highest damage by 20%, while having
much
lower damage multipliers. So no, thats not it either. Again, the only possibility is Shenanigans. Because otherwise, youre about 40% or so of damage multipliers short.So, basically, after showing you that the mesmer I asked have armor (which you can see, unless you are blind) and stabbed with meta build = being accused in lying ? How does it even work?

If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.

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My thing about thief is their mobility and ability to +1 and down a player is significantly better than everything else that is meta right now. Get a reaper spinning on you for 6k and a thief backstabbing you for 6k you are forced to blow cooldowns to recover meanwhile they will just wait 5 seconds and do it again while all your defenses are on gone. The biggest problem with thief was always the initiative system allowing them to set up bursts quicker. If it were me, I'd remove initiative and just give them skill cooldowns.

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@"UNOwen.7132" said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead.Backstabs(of course with armor, in combat) ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho . I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know (I wouldnt be surprised if your "math" is wrong xD). Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any). Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k (And I did, lol) you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

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@FrownyClown.8402 said:My thing about thief is their mobility and ability to +1 and down a player is significantly better than everything else that is meta right now. Get a reaper spinning on you for 6k and a thief backstabbing you for 6k you are forced to blow cooldowns to recover meanwhile they will just wait 5 seconds and do it again while all your defenses are on gone. The biggest problem with thief was always the initiative system allowing them to set up bursts quicker. If it were me, I'd remove initiative and just give them skill cooldowns.

I donno I find soulbeast +1 effective and safer at 1800 range. Just kite and Europe pew a enemy ur ally is fighting is usually effected but u lose out on ability to rotate as fast to decap which is important in a mode like conquest. With that said soulbeast gains strengths in areas thief's not so strong in but rotations and decaps are very important so

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

Wanderer at the time, which is +560 toughness. I've had to switch from Wanderer to Deadshot which is +560 vitality because the +22% effective health from Wanderer doesn't prevent me from immediately being dropped into downstate by the new Shadow Arts thieves while the +33% effective health from Deadshot means even though I get hit for harder numbers but I'm consistently left with a few thousand HP to attempt to recover.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-
while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

@noot.8641 said:Funny how everyone is compaining about a skill that has been there since forever, infiltrators arrow had not been changed since a long time, and now u guys qq about it? That skill is the bread and butter for s/d thieves, if you nerf that s/d will be poop.

Why do people keep using this argument? It doesnt work. The devs don't care about the status quo. Did you see the patch?

@UNOwen.7132 said:In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

you can hit 9k on mara vs a glass or mara target. Shadow Arts damage buffs is exactly why they can, now.There's even a sleeper build that hits for higher than that on Deadeye, but not gonna talk about that because it trades surprise for damage.It's getting nerfed anyway so meh.

Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

Successive hits can take 350 leech damage and add up to 2I, but that isn't tacked into backstab lump sum.

So, for a 9k backstab, we can eliminate shadow arts from the (damage source) equation.

Assuming core thief it's running trickery and deadly.

Now the complaint is 0 tells, 0 warning.

Well no lead attacks because that would mean the thief was in combat nearby (that is plenty of warning)

But we know that they were in +1 so everyone knew the thief was around.

+15% lead attacksEagle runes give that fero and +10% below 505% sigilPop signet

On a less than 50% target with full lead attack thief, 9k is doable on marauders.

Not doable first hit out of combat on fresh target.

On shadow arts core I mean.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know. Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any). Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the exact math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.

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@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've never been a defender of Power Mesmer's burst.

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You never get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:So let me get this strait here. Thief right now can do a huge burst with dp and follow up with said current dps. After patch the burst is getting lowered as a classes are but hp and toughness remain the same leading to longer fights which thief doesnt really excell at but things are going to be the same cuz the dps nerfs were blanket?I could see if base hp and tough ess were taking hits but as far as I know their not which is a significant factor no?

Perma stealth build that is currently bursting for 14-16k damage from stealth is going down to 12-14k in a balance patch where healing, protection, mobility, and active mitigation for everyone else is getting nerfed by 30-60%. Thief players think their class is being over nerfed.

I dont know where you got this idea of 14-16k bursts, but D/P does not burst
nearly
that hard. Hell it doesnt even burst for 12-14k right now. It bursts for 7-8k. Which goes down to 4.5-5.5k burst. On a super glassy build with minimal defenses and
very
low DPS after the initial burst. I dont know why you think its getting away lightly, when in truth, its probably getting hit worse than most builds. Because not all damage reductions are equal. A burst build gets a lot worse after a 30% damage reduction than a bunker build or a skirmisher build.

It's not just Backstab.

I've seen backstab hit for anywhere between 6-9k damage on a crit. This is overlapped with Mug for 2.5k damage multicasted on top of the burst. Both of these proc Leeching Venoms if they've stacked in stealth, which they almost certainly have. This adds up to another 1k damage. Backstab also procs Shadow Siphoning for another 600 damage. Both parts of the double strike come out in 0.25 seconds after the backstab+mug combo. These will both do about 1.1k+1.1k damage. These will also both proc Leeching Venoms for another 1k damage.

6-9000+2,500+600+1000+1100+1100+1000 =13,300-16,300 damage with even less of a tell than a mesmer greatsword burst.

Ok Im gonna have to correct your damage on several points here. First, Backstab will usually hit in the 5-7k area. 9k is on glass builds, and we dont have many of those in the meta. Second, if Backstab is hitting for 6-9k, Mug is
not
hitting for 2.5k. Itll be hitting for about 1.5-2k. Leeching Venoms will only hit for 800, and Double Strike is a lot slower (Total time for attack sequence is once every 1.68 seconds, indicating that double strike, which takes up about 30%, is about half a second), and hits less hard (It hits for exactly 1/4 of backstabs damage in total, so if backstab is hitting for 5-7k, itll be hitting for 1.25k-1.75k).

So if we adjust the damage properly, its 5000-7000+1500+500+800+1250-1750+800=9850-12350 damage. And thats with me using the higher values for Leeching Venom, Mug and Shadow Siphoning. Not a big difference though. And thats if you include Double Strike in the burst which personally I dont, but youre free to, thats a matter of opinion.

And now, to compare it to GS burst from Mesmer. First, it doesnt have less of a tell, because both of them have the same tell. None. In both cases the entire damage of the burst happens out of stealth in .2 seconds, which is faster than human reaction time (and in the case of Mesmer might or might not be backed up by a stun). Now of course, GS burst is a lot higher. Thats not surprising, GS burst has a longer cooldown and requires more time between attempts, so it has to. Mind you, its not the bursts damage or the ability to react to it that has made Shatter Mesmer fall off. Its the fact that its map mobility is frankly pathetic nowadays. Portal aint what it used to be.

I literally just used the Assassin Signet burst combo on the medium target golem and those were the numbers I got and used when making that post.

I did the same thing, but only to check the damage ratios. Though that being said, I did the same thing, and my backstab did not exceed 6.5k, so Im not sure where you got 9k from.

I get 9k from being hit by them.

In that case you must be playing glass, they must be playing glass (so Berserker instead of Marauder and Scholar instead of Eagle, and quite possibly dropping SA for CS. Because otherwise, 9k isnt achievable.

Wanderer at the time, which is +560 toughness. I've had to switch from Wanderer to Deadshot which is +560 vitality because the +22% effective health from Wanderer doesn't prevent me from immediately being dropped into downstate by the new Shadow Arts thieves while the +33% effective health from Deadshot means even though I get hit for harder numbers but I'm consistently left with a few thousand HP to attempt to recover.

Yeah 9k isnt achievable with 560 toughness unless you were already below 50% hp and they were running executioner. Most they can hit you for with 560 toughness is, hm. 6.8k based on the full damage formula. Thats less than half your health if Im not mistaken.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)Damn, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.
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@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I faund your issue, bolded it ;)Now find a mistake in your own calculations or we can safely assume that BS is bugged and does way more damage than its should.

There is no mistake in my calculation, and we can safely assume that Backstab ISNT bugged. As I said, I already did a small test on the side myself, getting just about 9k with executioners and Eagle active on a glass thief. So, one of us 2 isnt being honest. Given that Ive also shown that the math completely supports my claim, I think we can guess which one of us it is. In fact, let me just do the math for my version real quick to show that. 2680*950*2.4/2024=3018 base damage. Then, damage multipliers. Remove the 1.05 and 1.09 (I entered Stealth via a heal skill) and add 1.1 and 1.2. 3018*1.06*1.03*1.05*1.1*1.2*2.02=9225. Bam. Would you look at that. Pretty much exactly as I said.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Even_the_Odds5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

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