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Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

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@Steele.8509 said:I noticed a few months ago that there was a single thief who stormed a tower by knocking down a wall without any siege. I do not know how he cheated doing it.

maybe you just didnt see the siege, there are some siege spots that you cant see standing in the open wall and such catas usually wont get destroyed unless someone actually sees you using them.

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@Virelion.4128 said:Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.

This is the problem that @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" pointed out. Blanket statements and misunderstanding. It's not mobility, blinds, and a ton of evades, and then DE adding long range. It's mobility, blinds, more evades at the cost of no stability, blocks, low hp, low sustain and then DE TRADING that for long range and easy frequent stealth. And it's range isn't even that long most of the time due to being the buggiest of ranged projectiles, and not in favor of the DE. Very often I will cast Death's Judgement, a supposed 1500 range ability, when my enemy is within 1000 units of me and I will get an "out of range" message. Something you don't see on Rangers "1500" range... I've started clipping these frustrating moments in hopes to make a montage of "Out of Range but not really" clips.

Here's one from yesterday, though I clipped it a little too early, you'd have to pause it at the end so youtube doesn't cycle.

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@Turk.5460 said:

@Virelion.4128 said:Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.

This is the problem that @"SpellOfIniquity.1780" pointed out. Blanket statements and misunderstanding. It's not mobility, blinds, and a ton of evades, and then DE
adding
long range. It's mobility, blinds, more evades
at the cost of no stability, blocks, low hp, low sustain
and then DE
TRADING
that for long range and high stealth. And it's range isn't even that long most of the time due to being the buggiest of ranged projectiles, and not in favor of the DE. Very often I will cast Death's Judgement, a supposed 1500 range ability, when my enemy is within 1000 units of me and I will get an "out of range" message. Something you don't see on Rangers "1500" range... I've started clipping these frustrating moments in hopes to make a montage of "Out of Range but not really" clips.

Here's one from yesterday, though I clipped it a little too early, you'd have to pause it at the end so youtube doesn't cycle.

This is more to do with bullet projectiles vs arc arrows. I get "obstructed" using head shot at point blank range.

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Worst part is you can be marked by the thief and you can't lose the targetting - dodging doesn't work, and it stays on you until the thief is almost on the other side of the map. A good first change would be to make the targetting drop as soon as they go out of range.

Then tone down the OPness of those skills- being hit from stealth for over half your HP despite having huge armor rating doesn't make for fun gameplay when they then stealth again instantly and run away as soon as they realise they can't down you in one burst.

Mesmers need to be looked at too. In fact, invuln should be removed from the game completely and made into a damage reduction skill instead.

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Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage againFight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage againFight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

You gotta excuse us power revs - at least for me jumping on DE's and oneshotting them are among my favorite things to do in WvW, especially when I come from weaver, a class with limited mobility and almost no burst to kill DE's. Of course once in a while I see these really good DE's that react super fast and are really slippery and make me slightly salty for killing me :)

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@idolin.2831 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)
Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.
Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage again
Fight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.
The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

...especially when I come from weaver, a class with limited mobility and almost no burst to kill DE's.
Your personal Weaver build
may not have enough burst to kill DE's, but Weaver can absolutely build to burst DE , much faster than Rev's too and they don't have to be within melee range.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same kitten hitting me, till i died.only if every1 would get put back in place.thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

and while the rev can hit for 14k, you see him coming. You see him, you see the animation, you see the effect. You can react. And afterwards, you can take him down.

A thief vaulting you? You know it the moment you go down. No defense against it. Sure, deadeye is even worse. But that is not an excuse, just another point proving that the entire thief class is broken - and anet is doing nothing about it.

yes i see thief vaulting me coming just like i see rev hammer coming in middle of zone blob..i mean get real 1v1 vault thief u can see it coming in blob no1v1 hammer rev u can see shit coming in zone blob u dont.

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@Turk.5460 said:Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

Nah man, this is different. 2 vault spammers in a guild grp/zerg and they can nuke people too.

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@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Turk.5460 said:Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

Nah man, this is different. 2 vault spammers in a guild grp/zerg and they can nuke people too.

Oh, I thought they were whining about Vault in a 1v1/small scale setting - which never was an issue to any opponents with a few brain cells. So they're complaining about a niche build that would be destroyed by a few red circles placed in it's landing zone where the Thief can't dodge away from until after the punish frames allow massive counter-damage? Smh...

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are
required
to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

Cough

Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

Exactly and anet is going to nerf us by making a new finisher that creates tissues when we finish them.
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@Turk.5460 said:Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

There was a subsect of the Daredevil community deeply in love with vault (miss you nogas) but I agree, vault teefs are my favorite.. Easy to track, easy to anticipate.

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Shadow Meld does, at times, feel like a bit of a design mistake, especially as an ammo skill. But I'd rather see the cast-time upped to 0.75-1 sec so that a vigilant player has more opportunity to actively prevent the cast. There are lots of instances in the game where cast times need to be increased to just make disrupting opponents more valid.

I guess Death's Judgement could do without being unblockable, but I think Anet probably just slapped it on there because it would be harsh for a stray reflect to potentially cause you to one-shot yourself. Ideally we'd have a category in game of non-reflectable projectiles so the block still works but no reflect occurs.

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@Simonoly.4352 said:I guess Death's Judgement could do without being unblockable, but I think Anet probably just slapped it on there because it would be harsh for a stray reflect to potentially cause you to one-shot yourself. Ideally we'd have a category in game of non-reflectable projectiles so the block still works but no reflect occurs.

that is not the reason for it being unblockable. before the rework it was also reflectable and would not cause you to get oneshot, i often even survived a reflected one while i was in full berserk. it wont kill you as most of your damage modifiers to this shot (malice bonus etc.) do not apply to the reflected one, the reflected shot has just base damage with the power of the deadeye and the crit chance/ crit damage/ modifiers of the one reflecting.before the rework we had cursed bullet as unblockable and i think we need at least one unblockable shot there, because there are builds with pretty much 100% uptime of projectile hate, many of the roaming mirages for example and as group effort its even more likely that you will face alot of reflects (a reason why people didnt like rangers for their zergs).. this unblockable however doesnt have to be on deaths judgement.i personally would prefer instead of deaths judgement to have my rifle 2 skills be unblockable as they dont require me to invest stealth for being able to use them, they hit more reliably and they provide malice. when my target has near 100% uptime on projectile hate i can only use 0-1 malice DJs wich will mostly miss, have a low frequency and dont hit too much, if i could however fire some rifle 2 in there i could then use the malice to unload the damage in a devastating backstab while having more sustained pressure than trying death's judgements.

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I completely agree with thieves ruining WvW. There is a massive balance problem here going unnoticed since a long time. The fact that a class has high stealth (even permastealth), the highest movement-speed, high evasion and super high dmg should ring every balance alarm bell.Just the fact to engage and disengage any combat at will is a huge advantage. Two thiefs being able to be uncatchable by a whole zerg and recapping a keep should not be possible.Strong adjustment overdue!!

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  • 1 year later...

the fact is, i run into many many new players and they don't go to WvW, because the skill level is imposing. I've seen it over and over, i go to a BL, and a couple new players get absolutely pulverized by a thief. New people wont mind getting defeated, but i see them get assassinated from a thief who pops out of stealth and one shots them. Thief class doesn't belong in the game because the people that are really good at thief all gravitate to single target assassination (which is cool, don't get me wrong) but NOT a good way to give new players the time needed for them to find something to love about WvW. Every encounter I see, a thief will employ the ooc regen 'ability'? skill doesn't matter what it is or how it works, or its 'moral' etc. ..bla bla bla. The issue i speak of is we NEED new players. thiefs that have no goal other than to find some single roamer and grief him as he is trying to take a camp or a monument for his daily is cheesey and underhanded. Mostly that dude is gonna say 'forget wvw, ill go play something else'. They have nothing invested in the game and many of these predator thieves are too ego-centric to realize they are killing off the very thing that makes wvw fun..LOTS OF PLAYER. your like lions eating all the zebras or some shit..your gonna go extinct. so cool your shit, if u see a single dude with NO rank..leave him be unless he attacks you first. Employ some honor if you can.

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