DRAKKAR SIZE COMPARISONS

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The loading screen shows

regular

airships, which are about a third of the Glory of Tyria's scale. Still a difference in size between in-game and the concept art, but not as big as you make it. Though I do think that artpiece would put Zhaitan's size at his old model's scale, given

this comparison

.

That, and the fact they use false perspective in the final mission to make Zhaitan look larger (like they do, in a different method, with Kralkatorrik during The End), is why I tend to take Zhaitan's original model to be his "lore size". Which is also puts it at a much

more reasonable comparison to Kralkatorrik's The End model

.Please read my post before you respond to it next time. I never said the loading screen showed anything other then regular airships. I said the loading screen's size put him at a size to where the Glory should be only as big as his head instead of his whole body.

I did read your post, no need to be so hostile. I think you might have misunderstood me a bit.

[Randulf.7614]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And Drakkar could have been interesting. They just... dropped the ball... again... like with Lazarus, and Dhuum.

Full agreement. This was supposed to be the Saga where they took into account the mistakes made with villains from previous Seasons. Whilst Bangar and Jormag so far haven't been squandered (yet..), Drakkar was just wasted.

Sometimes I feel they really hate GW1

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Randulf.7614 said:Sometimes I feel they really hate GW1

Rather than hate GW1, I feel like the devs changed so much, that they are so indifferent about and disconnected from GW1 that there's no desire to fulfill players' dedication to both games.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@"Randulf.7614" said:Full agreement. This was supposed to be the Saga where they took into account the mistakes made with villains from previous Seasons. Whilst Bangar and Jormag so far haven't been squandered (yet..), Drakkar was just wasted.

Sometimes I feel they really hate GW1I'm not really sure what people expected with Drakkar. He was, and is, a giant fish thing, that the Elder Dragon speaks though, and uses to corrupt the things around him. It's exactly what it was suggested to be back in GW1, and exactly what he should be in GW2. What did you thing was going to happen? That he would be a monocle wearing gentlemen that you got to sit down, and have tea with, as you talked about the secrets of Mists together?

(since I saw this mentioned earlier)Same thing with Lazarus. Lazarus was a guy, who was part of a race we had already fodderized back in the original Guild Wars. He was, even back then, shown to be a Saturday morning cartoon villain, whose plan we easily foiled in Eye of the North, and who ran away with a stereotypical "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" threat. Lazarus was never going to be more then just a boss fight, because he lacks the power or influence to logically be anything but that. If anything, Balthazar using the identity of Lazarus makes more sense given that the fear of Lazarus, propagated over the span of 200 years, would have been more powerful then Lazarus himself ever could be.

I often get the feeling that people were allowed to stew on their own over exaggerated fan theories about what might happen to certain characters or elements from GW1, and kept piling on top of them every time they put out these theories, to the point that they lost right of realistic, or believable, narrative development.

[Tyson.5160]

I’m just happy that we have Drakkar as the focus of a living world episode as well as a world boss, that you could fight over and over again

[Randulf.7614]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Full agreement. This was supposed to be the Saga where they took into account the mistakes made with villains from previous Seasons. Whilst Bangar and Jormag so far haven't been squandered (yet..), Drakkar was just wasted.

Sometimes I feel they really hate GW1I'm not really sure what people expected with Drakkar. He was, and is, a giant fish thing, that the Elder Dragon speaks though, and uses to corrupt the things around him. It's exactly what it was suggested to be back in GW1, and exactly what he should be in GW2. What did you thing was going to happen? That he would be a monocle wearing gentlemen that you got to sit down, and have tea with, as you talked about the secrets of Mists together?

(since I saw this mentioned earlier)Same thing with Lazarus. Lazarus was a

guy

, who was part of a race we had already fodderized back in the original Guild Wars. He was, even back then, shown to be a Saturday morning cartoon villain, whose plan we easily foiled in Eye of the North, and who ran away with a stereotypical "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" threat. Lazarus was never going to be more then just a boss fight, because he lacks the power or influence to logically be anything but that. If anything, Balthazar using the identity of Lazarus makes more sense given that the fear of Lazarus, propagated over the span of 200 years, would have been more powerful then Lazarus himself ever could be.

I often get the feeling that people were allowed to stew on their own over exaggerated fan theories about what might happen to certain characters or elements from GW1, and kept piling on top of them every time they put out these theories, to the point that they lost right of realistic, or believable, narrative development.

There are fair comments here and I agree with your final paragraph for some instances of this game. However, when dealing with named GW1 villains, if you are going to bring them back, why even bother if they going to be discarded so quickly? When making a sequel, there will always be an exaggerated expectancy towards a character brought over from an earlier part of the franchsie. Any writer will understand that many fans will have higher expectations and it is down to them to balance how they handle them. If they are just going to throw them away quickly with very little plot development, set up or utilise them effectively, then why even bother bringing them back at all?

If anything, just having them as a throwaway part of the story is pandering to the fan fiction than anything else because they're just being used as cameos to satiate the legacy community. In such cases they aren't producing believable, realistic narrative. Things instead feel random, rushed or disjointed.

Drakkar permeates a lot of the lore and legend of the Norn. It was suggested to be so much more important in GW1 and it should feel like a great accomplishment to have beaten it, but I'm not in agreement it was. It felt like the writing team needed to throw in a minor obstacle to slow down the plot and they picked Drakkar because we were near there and it was a recognised name. The only thing they really kept and probably did quite well was the link to Joras bloodline and having her ancestor (kinda) redeem her family one last time (even though Braham beat it and rather easily).Everything else they change and I'm not really convinced they needed to change so many details of it. At the very least, it could have used more lead in. That unfortunately is the consequence of having these new half episodes rather than really building up a meaningful storyline. Everything is bitesized.

Even the fight itself is under thought and naff (post patch included) which just adds to overall feeling

As for Lazarus, that was a very random, unfitting episode. I'd have rather Lazarus wasn't brought back at all and we focused more on Balthazar and his lore/motivations. Instead it felt more like "eh we need to finish this off, lets just it done and we never have to worry about those GW1 fans clamouring for something again". So I agree, Balthazar using Lazarus' identity was a more powerful idea, but that should have been left at that.

[Fenom.9457]

I find it really interesting and weird how big the claw of jormag is compared to drakkar

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I'm not really sure what people expected with Drakkar. He was, and is, a giant fish thing, that the Elder Dragon speaks though, and uses to corrupt the things around him. It's exactly what it was suggested to be back in GW1, and exactly what he should be in GW2. What did you thing was going to happen? That he would be a monocle wearing gentlemen that you got to sit down, and have tea with, as you talked about the secrets of Mists together?

I can certainly see your view, but on the same par, Shadow of the Dragon and Blightghast the Plaguebringer both got much larger roles than Drakkar did, and I think that's what some people (myself included) were wanting a bare minimum of - not just one show in the story and a world boss variant, like the Death-Branded Shatterer. I wasn't expecting a monocle wearing gentleman in the least, or even talking. Just a beast to hinder and harass us repeatedly.

It's one of the main issues I have with Guild Wars in general - villains tend to get one, and only one, confrontation. Or their second confrontation is a repeated event. They don't get enough development to become meaningful, despite their placement in lore.

I mean, Drakkar was Jormag's mouthpiece. That's a pretty big role there., and he basically gets one-shotted by an NPC while we deal with mooks.

While some theories could have been fun - like Drakkar being a scion of Jormag - all I wanted was multiple encounters ala Shadow of the Dragon.

(since I saw this mentioned earlier)Same thing with Lazarus. Lazarus was a guy, who was part of a race we had already fodderized back in the original Guild Wars. He was, even back then, shown to be a Saturday morning cartoon villain, whose plan we easily foiled in Eye of the North, and who ran away with a stereotypical "I'LL GET YOU NEXT TIME GADGET!" threat. Lazarus was never going to be more then just a boss fight, because he lacks the power or influence to logically be anything but that. If anything, Balthazar using the identity of Lazarus makes more sense given that the fear of Lazarus, propagated over the span of 200 years, would have been more powerful then Lazarus himself ever could be.

Well, I kind of disagree. I never really saw Lazarus as a Saturday morning cartoon (except for his vow of vengeance as he left defeated). Even recently replaying that quest chain in EotN (thus no rose-tinted glasses), Lazarus felt more like that kind of "too angry to die" villain. I compare him more to Darth Maul from The Clone Wars (irony that such was a Saturday morning cartoon but it made far better villains than GW has, Grievous excluded).

Lazarus was not only a conniving asshole willing to put everyone's life on the line for the sake of his own survival (like many mursaat in general), but he had the force of the White Mantle behind him. Until they decided to go with Balthazar instead.

To me, the lost potential of Lazarus was twofold. First off, the "White Mantle civil war" was 100% off-screen. This was the perfect opportunity to delve into the history of the past 250 years with the White Mantle, and see a true "religion versus politics" plot go on. Surely you could see the potential in such a plot, too? Secondly, we never got to see him even attempt any action. Even if you view him as a Saturday morning cartoon in GW1 (again, I disagree with such beyond his closing line), he could have been better. He was literally just a boss fight. And an addendum plot-cleanup after the real finale at that - a footnote of a boss. Even Caudecus got more in Season 3, and he was a half-season boss.

And instead of that we got Balthazar, who was literally an spoiled manchild who's entire motivation was ultimately "I'm bored, let's fight!"

Even if they kept Lazarus as a fairly generic Saturday morning cartoon villain, that would have been better than a flaming manchild.

[Jimbru.6014]

Drakkar's general form reminds me of a mosasaur. With draconic influence, of course. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosasaur

As for his size, all I know is that when I'm fighting Drakkar with my view zoomed all the way out, his head is STILL off the top of my screen. Big critter no matter how you care to define it.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Randulf.7614 said:There are fair comments here and I agree with your final paragraph for some instances of this game. However, when dealing with named GW1 villains, if you are going to bring them back, why even bother if they going to be discarded so quickly?Because they are elements of the lore that should be addressed, and writing isn't an all or nothing situation where something has to be really big, or not at all. Even if you subscribe to the notion of Chekhov's Gun, and believe that everything that gets mentions must be used, Chekhov's gun doesn't necessitate that every gun be a nuclear bomb.

Much in the same way that the Thalmor were in Skyrim because they should be due to the political changes after the Oblivion Crisis, but had little impact on the game itself, things like Lazarus, and Drakkar, should be in the game, because they are in this world, but that doesn't mean they need to be the center of some big bombastic storyline. The same is true of elements originating in Guild Wars 2 as well. Elements like the Renegades and Separatists exists because it makes sense they would, but they haven't really been the focus of any big story, because it really doesn't make sense they would. They exist because they are an element that would naturally so, but that doesn't mean they have to really matter. Even when its been revealed that Caudecus was, unsurprisingly, funding the Separatists to make the queen look bad, they still didn't really MATTER as the story had long since moved past them and into the White Mantle proper. Same thing with the little lore drop in Bound by Blood where they mention Bangar being in with the Renegades.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:While some theories could have been fun - like Drakkar being a scion of Jormag - all I wanted was multiple encounters ala Shadow of the Dragon.I can't really say that I feel like Blightghast or the Shadow of the Dragon were helped by having more then one encounter. Both of them just show up, we lose, then they show up again, and we kill them. Neither of them really do anything unique, or stand out from any of the other copy pasta dragon champions like the Shatterer or the Claw of Jormag. I honestly think I had forgotten about Blightghast by the time I reached Orr, and the Shadow by the time HoT actually came out. I would actually saw Drakkar was done better then either of them, not only having a completely unique appearance, but also a stand out function, aunqiue boss fight, and the pre-established lore.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:To me, the lost potential of Lazarus was twofold. First off, the "White Mantle civil war" was 100% off-screen. This was the perfect opportunity to delve into the history of the past 250 years with the White Mantle, and see a true "religion versus politics" plot go on. Surely you could see the potential in such a plot, too?Not really. The White Mantle were fanatics who spent most of their time hiding out in the jungle playing pretend Kingdom with some run down forts they made or occupied. We know what the Mantle was doing for 250 years... and that was the above, and having a bunch of fanatics play who is the most right fanatic isn't interesting. There would have never been the kind of in depth religion vs politics storyline you are asking for because the Mantle were never that kind of people

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And an addendum plot-cleanup after the real finale at that - a footnote of a boss. Even Caudecus got more in Season 3, and he was a half-season boss.Caudecus was actually a politically relevant higher up in the Krytan Kingdom with a large personal fortune and network of friends to help him be something. Lazarus was just some guy who spent 200 years hiding in a book to recover his power. Caudecus SHOULD have gotten more time.

[Weindrasi.3805]

@Taylan.2187 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Still rather funny how tiny "Elder Dragon" Aurene is. Not even the size of The Shatterer.

Is it known whether she's still grown or has stopped growing?

Based on the evidence we have, no she isn't done.Vlast and Aurene are currently the same size.Vlast was about 200 years old upon his death, but he absorbed relatively little magic. Thus, his size was gained from years of natural aging.Aurene is only 2-3 years old, but she's absorbed enough magic to become an Elder Dragon equivalent to Kralkatorric.Kralkatorric was many thousands of years old, and was huge due to a combination of magic absorption and age. Give Aurene 1,000-2,000 years, and she'll probably be closer to that size (and would certainly outweigh Vlast, if he were still alive, and did not become an Elder Dragon himself over that span of time).

TLDR: Magic is like dragon growth hormone. It speeds up the process that otherwise occurs with aging.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@"Sajuuk Khar.1509" said:I can't really say that I feel like Blightghast or the Shadow of the Dragon were helped by having more then one encounter. Both of them just show up, we lose, then they show up again, and we kill them. Neither of them really do anything unique, or stand out from any of the other copy pasta dragon champions like the Shatterer or the Claw of Jormag. I honestly think I had forgotten about Blightghast by the time I reached Orr, and the Shadow by the time HoT actually came out. I would actually saw Drakkar was done better then either of them, not only having a completely unique appearance, but also a stand out function, aunqiue boss fight, and the pre-established lore.

Though their interactions may seem small, their actions were highly consequential. Without Blightghast's presence, not only would the mentors have survived, but the Pact would never have formed. The Lionguard could have stood a chance if a lesser dragon champion had assaulted instead, or at least wouldn't need the cooperation of all three orders to retake Claw Island.

The Shadow of the Dragon's assault on the Pale Tree was the leading reason why Mordremoth was capable of interacting with the sylvari and send out his call - without that attack, the Pale Tree would have been conscious and thus capable of making a (stronger) defense against Mordremoth's mental probes. This would have resulted in far fewer Mordrem Guard, and the Pact Fleet likely not being decimated. Which would have fundamentally changed everything about the plot of Path of Fire. Not to mention that both Shadow of the Dragon fights were well made and felt very much unique due to the different battle arenas.

Not really. The White Mantle were fanatics who spent most of their time hiding out in the jungle playing pretend Kingdom with some run down forts they made or occupied. We know what the Mantle was doing for 250 years... and that was the above, and having a bunch of fanatics play who is the most right fanatic isn't interesting. There would have never been the kind of in depth religion vs politics storyline you are asking for because the Mantle were never that kind of people

Caudecus was actually a politically relevant higher up in the Krytan Kingdom with a large personal fortune and network of friends to help him be something. Lazarus was just some guy who spent 200 years hiding in a book to recover his power. Caudecus SHOULD have gotten more time.

Caudecus wouldn't have had that political power he had without Lazarus' existence. Lazarus' survival was the primary leading cause of why the White Mantle had survived the past 250 years with such fanaticism - if all of their "gods" were dead, then that fanaticism wouldn't have been so strong.

As to the Mantle not being "that kind of people" - the fact that Balthazar's appearance fractured the White Mantle between the religious fanatics and the political power-desierers under Caudecus is proof that you're incorrect there. The issue was that this fracturing all occurred via dialogue about off-screen events and weren't properly shown. An issue with Season 3 in general - they vastly wasted the entire White Mantle resurgence plot potential.

Lazarus just being "some guy who spent 250 years hiding in a book" was only so because that's what ArenaNet decided to go with. You're saying Lazarus had no potential because they didn't use any potential, which is a bit of a fallacious argument. That's kind of your argument for Drakkar not being anything special too. But it's also the entire reason there are disappointed GW1 fans - because their potential wasn't used.

[Randulf.7614]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:There are fair comments here and I agree with your final paragraph for some instances of this game. However, when dealing with named GW1 villains, if you are going to bring them back, why even bother if they going to be discarded so quickly?Because they are elements of the lore that should be addressed, and writing isn't an all or nothing situation where something has to be really big, or not at all. Even if you subscribe to the notion of Chekhov's Gun, and believe that everything that gets mentions must be used, Chekhov's gun doesn't necessitate that every gun be a nuclear bomb.

Much in the same way that the Thalmor were in Skyrim because they should be due to the political changes after the Oblivion Crisis, but had little impact on the game itself, things like Lazarus, and Drakkar, should be in the game, because they are in this world, but that doesn't mean they need to be the center of some big bombastic storyline. The same is true of elements originating in Guild Wars 2 as well. Elements like the Renegades and Separatists exists because it makes sense they would, but they haven't really been the focus of any big story, because it really doesn't make sense they would. They exist because they are an element that would naturally so, but that doesn't mean they have to really matter. Even when its been revealed that Caudecus was, unsurprisingly, funding the Separatists to make the queen look bad, they still didn't really MATTER as the story had long since moved past them and into the White Mantle proper. Same thing with the little lore drop in Bound by Blood where they mention Bangar being in with the Renegades.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:While some theories could have been fun - like Drakkar being a scion of Jormag - all I wanted was multiple encounters ala Shadow of the Dragon.I can't really say that I feel like Blightghast or the Shadow of the Dragon were helped by having more then one encounter. Both of them just show up, we lose, then they show up again, and we kill them. Neither of them really do anything unique, or stand out from any of the other copy pasta dragon champions like the Shatterer or the Claw of Jormag. I honestly think I had forgotten about Blightghast by the time I reached Orr, and the Shadow by the time HoT actually came out. I would actually saw Drakkar was done better then either of them, not only having a completely unique appearance, but also a stand out function, aunqiue boss fight, and the pre-established lore.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:To me, the lost potential of Lazarus was twofold. First off, the "White Mantle civil war" was 100% off-screen. This was the perfect opportunity to delve into the history of the past 250 years with the White Mantle, and see a true "religion versus politics" plot go on. Surely you could see the potential in such a plot, too?Not really. The White Mantle were fanatics who spent most of their time hiding out in the jungle playing pretend Kingdom with some run down forts they made or occupied. We know what the Mantle was doing for 250 years... and that was the above, and having a bunch of fanatics play who is the most right fanatic isn't interesting. There would have never been the kind of in depth religion vs politics storyline you are asking for because the Mantle were never that kind of people

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:And an addendum plot-cleanup after the real finale at that - a footnote of a boss. Even Caudecus got more in Season 3, and he was a half-season boss.Caudecus was actually a politically relevant higher up in the Krytan Kingdom with a large personal fortune and network of friends to help him be something. Lazarus was just some guy who spent 200 years hiding in a book to recover his power. Caudecus SHOULD have gotten more time.

Drakkar was instrinsically and in a very important way, tied to the current plot. It's name and actions were tied to the lore, the history and in some cases the bloodline of the Norn. The fact they chose to make it just a mouthpiece does not detract from its importance. So yes, absolutely it should be a central part of the plotline and one more threatening than it proved to be based on the one sided fight.

Lazarus however had little relevance as an actual character at the time of his appearance in episode 6. Using his name and legend to hide another worked well enough that bringing him back was unnecessary after that. In my opinion, either Lazarus shouldn't have been brought back, or Lazarus should have been in place of Balthazar - working in the return the Mursaat at the same time (there was a cool theory going around that the unbound guardians were Mursaat trapped between Worlds - something the devs said was a great theory too). Considering they didn't really do anything with Balthazar, that villain could have been anyone. Sadly they tried to shoe horn everything in and in the end showed they neither cared about the story or the GW1 legacy players were invested in.

Shadow of the Dragon is a good example brought up, because I agree about its multiple appearances enhancing its status. Instead of becoming just a random mob, the threat and destruction it caused, the constant harrassment throughout the Season, did essentially gave us a powerful nemesis to focus on in the absence of the true villain of Mordremoth who was yet to be fully revealed. Blightghast too is important for its reoccurence because it was amajor nemesis that represented a significant setback and a loss we had to overcome.Drakkar is the same - a potentially major nemesis to battle off against whilst Jormag itself works in the background. It needed to deliver more impact which it was starting to do with the whispers, the death of Almorra etc, but the impact wasnt there. The trigger was pulled too soon.

Not everyone is going to agree. To some, Drakkar wasn't anything significant at which case it's a difference of perspective. GW2 only players probably wont care either because why would they? But many of us had an attachment to certain aspects of the GW1 Universe. It is not unreasonable to to accuse us of loftier expectations, but then again why would the devs not want to match those? They should show the love for their own franchise, but have become so dispassionate about GW1 it's become somewhat disheartening for a section of us.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Randulf.7614 said:Drakkar was instrinsically and in a very important way, tied to the current plot. It's name and actions were tied to the lore, the history and in some cases the bloodline of the Norn. The fact they chose to make it just a mouthpiece does not detract from its importance. So yes, absolutely it should be a central part of the plotline and one more threatening than it proved to be based on the one sided fight.This is a bit of misplaced importance. Drakkar itself was never tied to the plot in an important way. Svanir was. Svanir is the one who talked to Jormag, accepted the power Jormag offered, and thus turned into the Nornbear, which led to a cult being named after him later. Drakkar was just a conduit for the Elder Dragon to talk through. Drakkar could easily be removed from the universe, and replaced with a stick, and the exact same thing would have happened because Drakkar itself was never important, and never did anything itself. It was all Jormag and Svanir. The only importance Drakkar ever had was that it was a cool looking thing buried in some ice.

@Randulf.7614 said:Shadow of the Dragon is a good example brought up, because I agree about its multiple appearances enhancing its status. Instead of becoming just a random mob, the threat and destruction it caused, the constant harrassment throughout the Season, did essentially gave us a powerful nemesis to focus on in the absence of the true villain of Mordremoth who was yet to be fully revealed. Blightghast too is important for its reoccurence because it was amajor nemesis that represented a significant setback and a loss we had to overcome.Drakkar is the same - a potentially major nemesis to battle off against whilst Jormag itself works in the background. It needed to deliver more impact which it was starting to do with the whispers, the death of Almorra etc, but the impact wasnt there. The trigger was pulled too soon.The Shadow of the Dragon only showed up twice in the whole season. First in episode 4 when it attacked the summit, and again later in the cave when we kill it. It was never constantly harassing us at any point, nor was it ever really treated as a true nemesis because, again, you only had two encounters with it. Hell, it only survived the first encounter because it plot armored away before the Commander could deal the final blow. We literally had it dead to rights on our first encounter with it because it was so trivial even then. This is exactly what I was talking about in regards to people warping expectations about things. Already you have(unintentionally) started warping the actual events of the narrative in your subconscious in order to create a scenario that literally never existed at any point, and then trying to hold Drakkar up to that same standard od unreality, which it could OFC never have matched because that standard never actually happened in the first place.

Besides, Bangar is the real nemesis here, because he is the one with actual power. Much in the same way that Cadecus was always the better nemesis choice then Lazarus.

@Randulf.7614 said:Not everyone is going to agree. To some, Drakkar wasn't anything significant at which case it's a difference of perspective. GW2 only players probably wont care either because why would they? But many of us had an attachment to certain aspects of the GW1 Universe. It is not unreasonable to to accuse us of loftier expectations, but then again why would the devs not want to match those? They should show the love for their own franchise, but have become so dispassionate about GW1 it's become somewhat disheartening for a section of us.Having been a big fan of the original Guild Wars, and having played it for years before GW2 came out, this idea that the mindset of viewing something like Drakkar not being important stems from people who only played GW2 is demonstrably false.

As to why the devs shouldn't try to match those expectations... it because its impossible to match expectations that stem from pure fiction in a person's mind. Gamers in particular are so notorious for being ridiculous in terms of their expectations, to the point its become a running joke on several game forums I frequent that the devs could put out an update that allows your computer to print 100 dollar bills, and people would be complaining about the crispness of the bill. Why would any dev try to meet the expectations of a group of people they know are going to hate everything they do anyways? Why wouldn't they just make the most reasonable continuation of the story as they see it?

[Randulf.7614]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Drakkar was instrinsically and in a very important way, tied to the current plot. It's name and actions were tied to the lore, the history and in some cases the bloodline of the Norn. The fact they chose to make it just a mouthpiece does not detract from its importance. So yes, absolutely it should be a central part of the plotline and one more threatening than it proved to be based on the one sided fight.This is a bit of misplaced importance. Drakkar itself was never tied to the plot in an important way. Svanir was. Svanir is the one who talked to Jormag, accepted the power Jormag offered, and thus turned into the Nornbear, which led to a cult being named after him later. Drakkar was just a conduit for the Elder Dragon to talk through. Drakkar could easily be removed from the universe, and replaced with a stick, and the exact same thing would have happened because Drakkar itself was never important, and never did anything itself. It was all Jormag and Svanir. The only importance Drakkar ever had was that it was a cool looking thing buried in some ice.

It's not misplaced importance. It's just you choose to dismiss it. That is your right, but doesn't change the importance of Drakkar. They made Drakkar the conduit and therefore by association and therefore established its importance.

@Randulf.7614 said:Shadow of the Dragon is a good example brought up, because I agree about its multiple appearances enhancing its status. Instead of becoming just a random mob, the threat and destruction it caused, the constant harrassment throughout the Season, did essentially gave us a powerful nemesis to focus on in the absence of the true villain of Mordremoth who was yet to be fully revealed. Blightghast too is important for its reoccurence because it was amajor nemesis that represented a significant setback and a loss we had to overcome.Drakkar is the same - a potentially major nemesis to battle off against whilst Jormag itself works in the background. It needed to deliver more impact which it was starting to do with the whispers, the death of Almorra etc, but the impact wasnt there. The trigger was pulled too soon.The Shadow of the Dragon only showed up twice in the whole season. First in episode 4 when it attacked the summit, and again later in the cave when we kill it. It was never constantly harassing us at any point, nor was it ever really treated as a true nemesis because, again, you only had two encounters with it. Hell, it only survived the first encounter because it plot armored away before the Commander could deal the final blow. We literally had it dead to rights on our first encounter with it because it was so trivial even then. This is exactly what I was talking about in regards to people warping expectations about things. Already you have(unintentionally) started warping the actual events of the narrative in your subconscious in order to create a scenario that literally never existed at any point, and then trying to hold Drakkar up to that same standard on unreality, which it could OFC never have match because that standard never actually happened in the first place.

I disagree fully. I found it a decent nemesis. I think Konig summed it up better than I did mind you - perhaps his explanation is clearer because both Blightghast and Shadow were vital to the story and their impact was significant.

@Randulf.7614 said:Not everyone is going to agree. To some, Drakkar wasn't anything significant at which case it's a difference of perspective. GW2 only players probably wont care either because why would they? But many of us had an attachment to certain aspects of the GW1 Universe. It is not unreasonable to to accuse us of loftier expectations, but then again why would the devs not want to match those? They should show the love for their own franchise, but have become so dispassionate about GW1 it's become somewhat disheartening for a section of us.Having been a big fan of the original Guild Wars, and having played it for years before GW2 came out, this idea that the mindset of viewing something like Drakkar not being important stems from people who only played GW2 is demonstrably false.

That's not what I said or implied. Perhaps I was unclear. I referred to some GW1 players not all. I acknowledged there would be difference of opinons. it does not make mine any less.

As to why the devs shouldn't try to match those expectations... it because its impossible to match expectations that stem from pure fiction in a person's mind. Gamers in particular are so notorious for being ridiculous in terms of their expectations, to the point its become a running joke on several game forums I frequent that the devs could put out an update that allows your computer to print 100 dollar bills, and people would be complaining about the crispness of the bill. Why would any dev try to meet the expectations of a group of people they know are going to hate everything they do anyways? Why wouldn't they just make the most reasonable continuation of the story as they see it?

I disagree with this ...but only to an extent because I do agree in part with what you say. It why I am against bringing the Wizards Tower into play - it could never live up to the hype. However, I believe there is a certain responsibility resting on a writing team to do justice to the source material. That means bringing something from a legacy story into play, they need to be prepared to utilise it to its fullest potential. They have not done that many times as far as I am concerned

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Randulf.7614 said:It's not misplaced importance. It's just you choose to dismiss it. That is your right, but doesn't change the importance of Drakkar. They made Drakkar the conduit and therefore by association and therefore established its importance.And this is where you are fundamentally wrong. Again, if Drakkar was important, his existence would be necessary for the plot. As it was, even back in the original Guild Wars, Drakkar could have been replaced with an enchanted stick, an enchanted rock, some enchanted dragon totem hidden somewhere, and the plot would have continued exactly the same as it was because Drakkar itself never did anything itself. It was all Jormag and Svanir.

That isn't dismissal of importance, that is just pointing out any importance you think it had is something made up in your mind, and doesn't actually stem from the narrative itself.

@Randulf.7614 said:However, I believe there is a certain responsibility resting on a writing team to do justice to the source materialHere's the thing though, Drakkar was treated that way in Guild Wars 2. It had all the same plot relevance and importance it did back in Guild Wars 1, which is to say the same any magically enchanted stick, or rock, or totem, could have had.

[Randulf.7614]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:It's not misplaced importance. It's just you choose to dismiss it. That is your right, but doesn't change the importance of Drakkar. They made Drakkar the conduit and therefore by association and therefore established its importance.And this is where you are fundamentally wrong. Again, if Drakkar was important, his existence would be necessary for the plot. As it was, even back in the original Guild Wars, Drakkar could have been replaced with an enchanted stick, an enchanted rock, some enchanted dragon totem hidden somewhere, and the plot would have continued exactly the same as it was because Drakkar itself never did anything itself. It was all Jormag and Svanir.

That isn't dismissal of importance, that is just pointing out any importance you think it had is something made up in your mind, and doesn't actually stem from the narrative itself.

@Randulf.7614 said:However, I believe there is a certain responsibility resting on a writing team to do justice to the source materialHere's the thing though, Drakkar was treated that way in Guild Wars 2. It had all the same plot relevance and importance it did back in Guild Wars 1, which is to say the same any magically enchanted stick, or rock, or totem, could have had.

An extraordinarily bizarre argument. I'm not even sure how you came to these conclusions to be honest. But if that is your belief, I guess I'll leave you to it..

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Randulf.7614 said:An extraordinarily bizarre argument. I'm not even sure how you came to these conclusions to be honest. But if that is your belief, I guess I'll leave you to it..There is nothing bizarre about it.

Let actually look at Guild Wars 1.

In GW1 Svanir stood on the lake, Jormag talked to him(via Drakkar), Svanir accepted the power Jormag offered him. and turned into a Nornbear, and Jora and the player killed him, and later the dragon worshipers named their cult after him.This exact same scenario could have happened if you replace Drakkar with some ancient dragon totem buried at the bottom of the frozen lake. Or, to use the same format as above.In Guild Wars 1 Svanir stood on the lake, Jormag talked to him(via the buried dragon totem), Svanir accepted the power Jormag offered him, and turned into a Nornbear, and Jora and the player killed him, and later the dragon worshipers named their cult after him.At the end of the day, Drakkar was never important, even in Guild Wars 1. His only function was to serve as something for Jormag to talk to Svanir through, but you can talk to, or through, pretty much any magically enchanted item in any universe with magic. And, even then, it's still Jormag and Svanir doing everything important in that scenario. Drakkar is just the inanimate telephone in this situation, not an actual character, with agency, doing something.

Drakkar is only a giant fish thing because it allows for more gameplay elements later, aka a boss fight, whereas a magically enchanted rock or stick is just an inanimate object that the play can talk to in a cutscene. Drakkar being what it is, even in Guild Wars 1, simply for gameplay sake, nothing more.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

By your arguments, Zhaitan itself isn't necessary, because all of its actions could be done by a magical artifact that corrupts those near it.

The thing you're lacking is not what it does, but rather why it was given that role.

Drakkar in GW1 was far more than a mere conduit for Jormag's power. It was a mysterious creature that drew attention and curiousity from the players. ArenaNet intentionally highlighted Drakkar's very existence, even before it was given the name and position it did. During EotN's development, that wasn't "a dragon champion", it was "an Elder Dragon". And because of that, just like "the statue" that is PRimordus, it got attention, the writers drew our eyes and ears towards Drakkar, building up an expectation that even though its influence was minor in GW1, the promise of continuation of plots in GW2 also promised that the things which drew our attention in Eye of the North would play significant roles. The charr rebellion, the Scepter of Orr, Lazarus, Primordus, Drakkar, and the Pale Tree were all things of "minor plot value" that did little, but our attention was intentionally drawn to them by the writers so as to set the stage for GW2.

I'm sure you've heard of Chekov's Gun - where you do not display a pistol on the stage of Act 1 in a play without the intent of firing that gun by the end of Act 3. This is really the same premise. It's foreshadowing. Our attention is brought to these seemingly insignificant things who's purpose could be fulfilled by any number of other items, individuals, or concepts. The reason our attention is brought to them, is because the writer is given an unwritten promise: "this will become important later on".

But Lazarus wasn't important in the end. He was just a footnote. Drakkar wasn't important, just treated as a tiny hurdle for Braham after being altered fundamentally. Primordus is apparently no longer that statue, making that statue of no importance.

Anything that was foreshadowed and not brought up in the core game, has been a broken promise of importance made by that act of foreshadowing. The sole arguably exceptions being Joko and Kralkatorrik.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:By your arguments, Zhaitan itself isn't necessary, because all of its actions could be done by a magical artifact that corrupts those near it.Not at all. A simple corrupting magical artifact lacks the intelligence or agency to perform the large scale movements of armies Zhaitan had, to pose the kind of threat that necessitated the Pact to be formed to combat it.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:I'm sure you've heard of Chekov's GunGiven that I literally mentioned it a few posts ago, yes, I am aware of it. Really Konig, if you can't be bothered to read the conversation you are responding to, why do you bother to respond to it?

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:The reason our attention is brought to them, is because the writer is given an unwritten promise: "this will become important later on".This is fundamentally incorrect. Chekhov's gun only necessitates that the gun will be used, not that the use of said gun will be monumentally important.

In regards to Drakkar(as a narrative device), it was important. Specifically,

• It was the conduit for the whispers that ultimately caused/drove the first three chapters of the 9 chapter Icebrood Saga. Making its defeat the closing scene of act 1, a major milestone in the narrative.
• Its siphoning of the lost spirits' power necessitated the player, and Braham, gain said spirits power to defeat it. Which kick-started an evolution of Braham's character into something more(most likely an Asgeir parallel), which will become important later.
• Bangar's kill steal of such a notable dragon champion has, as Rytlock mentions at the end of "Shadow In the Ice", caused greater division in the Charr, with more believing Banger can accomplish what he claims. Which will likely lead into a two chapter Charr civil conflict. Meaning its still going to affect the narrative even after its death.
• Jhavi leading the assault on Drakkar, and defeating it, in many ways brings more resolution to the story of Jora's bloodline, as Jhavi is able to get somemeasureof revenge on Drakkar for what it did to her family.

Just to name the bigger points. OFC, it could have been replaced with a magic stick, and all of these points would still hold true since Drakkar, as an entity, was just a telephone for Jormag.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:By your arguments, Zhaitan itself isn't necessary, because all of its actions could be done by a magical artifact that corrupts those near it.Not at all. A simple corrupting magical artifact lacks the intelligence or agency to perform the large scale movements of armies Zhaitan had, to pose the kind of threat that necessitated the Pact to be formed to combat it.Unless it was the champions that led those coordations, as many already believe anyways. Most players take the initial presentation of the Elder Dragons as mindless beasts of corrupting nature. Such a description is no different, plotwise, than having a non-sapient object or event that's causing mass corruption.

Given that I literally mentioned it a few posts ago, yes, I am aware of it. Really Konig, if you can't be bothered to read the conversation you are responding to, why do you bother to respond to it?Oh, sorry for not reading the responses

not directed at me

when there's several wall of text posts to read through. I don't exactly have all the time in the world.

This is fundamentally incorrect. Chekhov's gun only necessitates that the gun will be used, not that the use of said gun will be monumentally important.In plays, however, the usage of a gun is fundamentally important as it is a life-or-death situation being brought up. The gun is being used with the intent to kill a character, often a main character. Even if it lasts for 5 seconds, it becomes a pivotal aspect of the play's plot.

In regards to Drakkar(as a narrative device), it was important. Specifically,

• It was the conduit for the whispers that ultimately caused/drove the first three chapters of the 9 chapter Icebrood Saga. Making its defeat the closing scene of act 1, a major milestone in the narrative.
• Its siphoning of the lost spirits' power necessitated the player, and Braham, gain said spirits power to defeat it. Which kick-started an evolution of Braham's character into something more(most likely an Asgeir parallel), which will become important later.
• Bangar's kill steal of such a notable dragon champion has, as Rytlock mentions at the end of "Shadow In the Ice", caused greater division in the Charr, with more believing Banger can accomplish what he claims. Which will likely lead into a two chapter Charr civil conflict. Meaning its still going to affect the narrative even after its death.
• Jhavi leading the assault on Drakkar, and defeating it, in many ways brings more resolution to the story of Jora's bloodline, as Jhavi is able to get somemeasureof revenge on Drakkar for what it did to her family.

Just to name the bigger points. OFC, it could have been replaced with a magic stick, and all of these points would still hold true since Drakkar, as an entity, was just a telephone for Jormag.

• Drakkar had no mention in either the prologue or Episode 1. It's influence in Episode 1 is only established late on in Episode 2, but it's never once established of having any form of importance to the prologue - instead, the Fraenir of Jormag is, by association with the Icebrood Construct and blizzard.
• Jormag's the one siphoning the Lost Spirits' power, however; while Drakkar's extended connection did serve as the primary focus of this episode, that's the extent of it. Being what is effectively a mcguffin is not a very strong narrative device. Especially when it doesn't even serve as a boss fight in the story. Furthermore, you put unproven importance on Braham's character development, which ultimately was placed to the Commander being injured, not Braham proving himself to the Lost Spirits or defeating Drakkar.
• This is also a "wait and see". While the end of this episode does put the suggestion that it'll hold influence, the kill steal was ultimately the Whisper of Jormag, not Drakkar.
• Except that it wasn't defeated. Jhavi gave up her chance of revenge and family redemption in the end. Making this effectively a dropped plot point - much like Marjory's revenge for Belinda against Mordremoth. When the final confrontation came, they both gave up their revenge for no clear or logical reason.

Ultimately, the foreshadowing from GW1 was left dead in the water, because the confrontation in the story was an NPC one-shotting it while we watched from a distance, and its death serving as a very poor mcguffin to further the plot, rather than being the focus of the episode's plot proper - or let alone "the first three episodes".

They could have expanded it by having us actually fight Drakkar, bringing it down to 10% health before Braham finished it off. By introducing it in Episode 1 as the clear source of whispers, and maybe even a shadowy appearance like its "movements in the wall", even introducing the whispers in the prologue finale, rather than just some mysterious blizzard and construct. Establish that Drakkar was cooperating with the Fraenir, rather than being an independent powerhouse in the neighborhood who has speakers.

[Sajuuk Khar.1509]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Unless it was the champions that led those coordations, as many already believe anyways. Most players take the initial presentation of the Elder Dragons as mindless beasts of corrupting nature. Such a description is no different, plotwise, than having a non-sapient object or event that's causing mass corruption.What many player's believe is irrelevant. Their inability to pay attention to what the game constantly hammers in isn't justification for anything.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Oh, sorry for not reading the responses not directed at me when there's several wall of text posts to read through. I don't exactly have all the time in the world.And yet the response you make was to a post not directed at you. Don't participate in a conversation if you are unwilling to bother with the conversation beyond what directly references yourself. That is jut basic etiquette.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:In plays, however, the usage of a gun is fundamentally important as it is a life-or-death situation being brought up. The gun is being used with the intent to kill a character, often a main character. Even if it lasts for 5 seconds, it becomes a pivotal aspect of the play's plot.Video games aren't plays, and tend to be a bit more complex them plays, since they aren't so basic.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Drakkar had no mention in either the prologue or Episode 1.It doesn't need to. That isn't how narrative progression works in the slightest.

• In the August 13th, 2019 patch we got "Suspicious Travelers" added to the game world, who spoke about Jormag, and had mysterious whispers audible around them
• On August 30th, 2019 we got the Icebrood Saga trailer where "the voice" is talking to someone as part of the narration
• On September 17th, 2019 we got the prologue chapter "Bound By Blood" and as people were quick to note, Bangar had a corrupted idol object in his office, establishing a link there between Bangar and Jormag
• This was confirmed on September 25th, 2019, when Julia Nardin confirmed it was Bangar that Jormag was talking to in the trailer, confirming that, yeah, Bangar was hearing he voices, as people suspected.
• Then on November 19th, 2019, we got "Whisper in the Dark" where the players start hearing the voices more directly.
• Then on Janurary 28th, 2020, we got "Shadow in the Ice" where we find out that the voices are coming from Drakkar(or at the least the power Jormag put inside of it)

There is a clear established "whispers" mystery starting before the Icebrood Saga officially began, and running through everything up to the point Drakkar was revealed as the conduit for the voice. Narrative design does not work on the principle you seem to think it does, where everything had to be revealed at the very start, or it doesn't count.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Jormag's the one siphoning the Lost Spirits' power,Nope, at least to directly. As mentioned in the first mission of "Shadow in the Ice"https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chasing_Ghosts

• Cloudseeker: Drakkar is protected, and by not any ordinary magic.
• (Cloudseeker conjures images of three Spirits of the Wild above the fire.)
• Braham Eirsson: Impossible... Ox, Eagle, Wolverine?
• Braham Eirsson: The lost Spirits of the Wild! I thought Jormag killed them. We all did.
• Cloudseeker: Not killed. Taken. Now Drakkar feeds on them—an infinite well of power.

This is also why, you know, during the Drakkar fight event, Jhavi mentions its being protected by the Lost Spirits power, and you have to go into the raven gates and kill the champions siphoning the spirit's power into Drakkar.

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Furthermore, you put unproven importance on Braham's character developmentCome on Konig, even you must see how hard you are reaching with this.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:the kill steal was ultimately the Whisper of Jormag, not Drakkar.Which was in Drakkar, and the source of its voice power, and only came out after defeating it. Don't ignore the context of the situation here.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Except that it wasn't defeated. Jhavi gave up her chance of revenge and family redemption in the endAlso incorrect. Jhavi lead a team to put the smack down on Drakkar, getting her revenge by beating it in battle. Defeat does not equal death Konig, and many revenge plots end with the main character getting their revenge on the bad guy by beating them in battle... and then letting them go because they are better then that. This entire argument is just being disingenuous by creating a standard for revenge you know to be false.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Ultimately, the foreshadowing from GW1 was left dead in the water, because the confrontation in the story was an NPC one-shotting it while we watched from a distance,I think you need to look up the term one shot, because nothing got one shotted in this episode. Jhavi leads an assault on Drakkar and weakens it/forces it to retreat. The player and Braham come in and finish it off by Braham using the lost spirit's power to actually kill Drakkar itself. Then the Whisper of Jormag comes out, we fight it for a bit, then Bangar comes out and deals the finisher. Literally nothing got one shotted unless you are intentionally ignoring, and warping, the actual events of the mission intentionally to make this argument.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:and its death serving as a very poor mcguffin to further the plot, rather than being the focus of the episode's plot proper - or let alone "the first three episodes".Wrong, as shown above.@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:They could have expanded it by having us actually fight Drakkar, bringing it down to 10% health before Braham finished it off. By introducing it in Episode 1 as the clear source of whispers, and maybe even a shadowy appearance like its "movements in the wall", even introducing the whispers in the prologue finale, rather than just some mysterious blizzard and construct. Establish that Drakkar was cooperating with the Fraenir, rather than being an independent powerhouse in the neighborhood who has speakers.That is literally how the Drakkar fight went though Konig, what are you talking about? And the whispers were introduced before even the prologue was out, and they established a corrupting link with Bangar in the prologue chapter as well.

Honestly Konig, your entire argument thus far seems more like you just missed literally everything the devs put in place to set up for this, and are claiming they don't exist because you missed them.