Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

Recommended Posts

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.

Oh Im not. Even the Odds only applies the Might on stealth attack hit. Which means the might does not factor into the stealth attacks damage, unless its a multihit stealth attack in which case it would affect all but the first hit. Were looking at Backstab, a single hit stealth attack, so the might only applies after the backstab damage and does not affect it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 288
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh."Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh."Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

Let me correct you. It cant hit more than 8.8k, unless you involve shenanigans. There are a number of ways to increase it. Take off armour to lower defense rating (And the armor stat as a result). Obtain 25 might stacks. Stack Lead Attacks, switch to Executioner, get the target below 50% and then do the burst. Basically, all you need to do is find a way to add 27% damage to the burst. Its doable, but you pretty much have to fabricate, create a specific scenario just to obtain the damage number you want to show. Which is dishonest. I dont know which method you used. But I can safely say, you used one of them.

Also I know youre trying to deflect, but as I have mentioned multiple times, I have tried it in combat. I used the little arena in HotM, and the people there, to try it out. And I hit it on a bunch of targets in a bunch of situations. However, unlike you I did it honestly, without trying to fabricate a situation to get the numbers I want. As I said, the highest I could get was just over 9k, on a glass thief with Executioner and Eagle active. I also just showed that that perfectly lines up with the math. Which further proves that you were trying to get as high a damage number as possible, whatever method of fabrication you used.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Crackmonster.2790" said:Thieves are filthy animals. They have so much over the top kitten.They destroy you fast as hell, they sometimes oneshot you directly in a single attack from stealth, they stealth all around and are thereby annoying as kitten, their mobility is insane i can't even catch them using several teleports and speed runes they still just charge away as they want faster than a lightning. They have a lot of evade kitten and imagine how much they nerfed mirages till now mirages aint got nothing almost but those filthy thieves got so much they must pay the price, enough is enough they are freestyling from extreme safety, extreme mobility and oneshot from stealth potential-
while other classes get any of their powers kept extremely in check.

Lol "Thief wont let me be op."

ARAHGUAH, URGH RAH URG

!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

I meant cumulative, so this ^.

So, for a 9k backstab, we can eliminate shadow arts from the (damage source) equation.

If you're talking raw damage/damage from backstab's skill without a steal-assisted precast, that's not what I was talking about. Its not going to hit that hard without mods/situational variance, so I didn't even consider that as an arguing point.

@Crackmonster.2790 said:ARAHGUAH, URGH RAH URG

Basically. I'm just watching how the crowd is rolling from mechanic to mechanic without acknowledging the nerfs thieves got, calling all of them busted before the patch is even out. A lot of them boil down to the above. Not all of them, but a sizable amount.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Crab Fear.1624 said:Outside of the leeching Venoms, how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

See below. Let's not ignore bolded there.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

This

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

https://imgur.com/gallery/3M6q6CU

and This are fair assessments.

Don't die on this hill. I'd rather the shadow arts shave than anything else at this time, especially because it has that same power mes burst flavor.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Burnfall.9573 said:REDESIGN THIEF PROFESSION!!!!!

That won't stop people from complaining, Burnfall.Even if stealth got reworked and thief got cooldowns, the archetype itself will cause people to feel cheated and robbed as long as this game exists. Thieves will adapt and continue to be annoying and toxic as long as their class is at least borderline viable. Removal of their viability, further, is not an option.I'd love to have a game where people considered any match against me on thief fair if they also lost that match, but that's a pipe dream.All that matters is that there's an avenue to counterplay. A redesign is too much work for no result. As long as every class has an option to build in such a way that they can stall or beat a thief, that's all that we need.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

Outside of the leeching Venoms,
how does shadow arts boost thief damage?

See below. Let's not ignore bolded there.

@"mortrialus.3062" said:This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

This

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

and This are fair assessments.

Don't die on this hill. I'd rather the shadow arts shave than anything else at this time, especially because it has that same power mes burst flavor.

They stacked stealth before that chain.

I can see they are not running rending shade.

Cloaked in shadow gm instead.

Looks like after stacking stealth they engaged with shadow shot and backstab canceled the attack.

We are moving out of instant territory.

Steal came after backstab otherwise they would not have landed it, maybe they just wanted plasma.

Still without a possible fear, the follow up attacks, and looking at the window and their down health, some of this damage happened after they were down, I'll assume it was when they stole to preserve their own life.

I'll assume they fought for a bit, thief stacked in smoke screen and attempted a successful burst.

So the higher damage would make sense because lower health would mean more damage.

It was probably closer of a fight then the screen would show.

The siphon has been there, but if they want to take away the free stacks they should give the recharge decrease for slots back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Crab Fear.1624 said:It was probably closer of a fight then the screen would show.

Probably, but even if lead attacks was a factor or there was a skirmish beforehand, the fact remains that the damage array there is centered on backstab and mug, both of which are untelegraphed attacks.

I don't know how that's going to look post patch, but if it's anywhere close the devs will have absolutely no problem laying flat damage coeff nerfs on us if D/P makes a resurgence.

The siphon has been there, but if they want to take away the free stacks they should give the recharge decrease for slots back.

This is fine. Just noting I am fully prepared to jettison that before having weapon coeff. toyed with even further. We don't need -specifically that- kind of damage delivery right now. If you want to put a venom on to get those leeches you should do that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Odik.4587 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:If Math shows something to be impossible, its impossible. So if you show something that is impossible, that means something is up. I dont know what, but I know that the damage you have shown is impossible.Quoting wall of text isnt nice uk? I tested on that mesmer countless amount of backstabs. If he wouldnt wear boots steal would hit for 3k instead. Backstabs ranged from 10.200 up to 11.200 (all recorded, will upload and give you a link for 500g, 13 minutes of it xD or shorter version), couldnt reproduce this 11.7 tho. I dont know/interested in that "math" but mesmer armor is 1888, just letting you know.
Bring a friend to do the same (if you have any).
Thread isnt about backstab even but after pointing out I clearly can do more than 9k you accuse me in being a liar, how nice of you :astonished: .

So it is. I mustve had a rune that gave a bit of toughness on my Ele. That makes a difference of 1% damage. Not even enough to matter in the scale of damage fluctuations. But yes, it doesnt work. In fact, let me go through the
exact
math to show why it doesnt work. The full damage formula. So, its ((Weapon Strength]*(Power)*(Attack Coefficient)/(Enemy Armor))*damage multipliers. So, with steal granting 3 might, which is 90 power, and an activated Assassin's Signet, the thief will at that point have 2765 power (using scholars). Daggers Weapon Strength in PvP is 950 at max. Backstabs coefficient is 2.4. So the base one we have is 2680*950*2.4/1888=3339 damage. Now ontop of that we get damage multipliers. Thankfully, the build makes it easy for us, as it doesnt have too many. Lets see. Steal applies 3 condis, so you get 6% from Exposed weakness and 3% from Sigil of Compounding. One of those condis is Vulnerability, so thats 5% there. Scholar gives you 5%, and Lead Attack gives you 9. And then we have critting, which gives you 102% extra damage. So, that gives us 3339*1.06*1.03*1.09*1.05*1.05*2.02=8849. Thats it. Thats the highest damage your backstab could have done in that situation. Note: Its about 2-3k short of the damage you claim it has. And thats with Scholars. So, as I said. Shenanigans.I found your issue, bolded it ;)kitten, savage typos.tldr : on paper its one thing, in game is another. Either your calculations are wrong or BS does more damage than it should. Pick 1.

He is missing
5 stacks of might, other then that I dont see anything wrong.I dont really bother to read his walls tbh.I even stated that I did it in combat and it had (as follows on screen there pistol5 into HS) into BS with meta build, not from stealthign out of combat. While it was out of combat it was around 9400, in combat it was 10.2k-11.2k. Which is HIGHER than his stated "no way it can be more than 9k". I have video where I countless amount of times stab mesmer and even did the same when he was missing his boots.

Ah yes, the best response to math that proves that what youre trying to claim is thoroughly wrong. Ignore it. Oh well, you werent honest to begin with, so I guess math wasnt going to convince you either, but everyone else can see that the math proves what youre trying to claim to be impossible. All thanks to the power of Math.I'm not sure even if you are trolling anymore tbh."Look math says it can hit more than 8.8k"I log in the game hit 9.4-9.7k ooc and up to 11.2k in combat. Which you refuse to do because you have no friends and strangers arent willing to help you?You with a foam in mouth "you are liar". - Me - what?

Let me correct you. It cant hit more than 8.8k, unless you involve shenanigans. There are a number of ways to increase it. Take off armour to lower defense rating (And the armor stat as a result). Obtain 25 might stacks. Stack Lead Attacks, switch to Executioner, get the target below 50% and then do the burst. Basically, all you need to do is find a way to add 27% damage to the burst. Its doable, but you pretty much have to fabricate, create a specific scenario just to obtain the damage number you want to show. Which is dishonest. I dont know which method you used. But I can safely say, you used one of them.So, you accusing me in making it up because I cant show 2 perspectives at once? If he would take armor off steal damage would skyrocket which doesnt happen.FYI lead attacks is a thief minor trait and somehow illegal to count on ? Sadly for you my stab was ~9400 and it was first try without trying more. Even without a single "lead attacks" stack

Im accusing you of fabricating a situation because the damage you show is impossible without it. And it would increase, but not skyrocket. Specifically, unequip all but the pants, and through sheer coencidence, you get 29% extra damage. Just about how much extra you needed to achieve your numbers. But I digress. And I included Lead Attack in my calculations. 9%, from BP + HS. For the record, even if you stacked it to 15% it would still be 20% short. Thats why I said stack lead attacks and swap to Executioner.

Also I know youre trying to deflect, but as I have mentioned multiple times,
I have tried it in combat
. I used the little arena in HotM, and the people there, to try it out. And I hit it on a bunch of targets in a bunch of situations. However, unlike you I did it honestly, without trying to fabricate a situation to get the numbers I want. As I said, the highest I could get was just over 9k, on a glass thief with Executioner and Eagle active. I also just showed that that perfectly lines up with the math. Which further proves that you were trying to get as high a damage number as possible, whatever method of fabrication you used."Fabricate" ? Wasnt it you saying its impossible to reach more than 9k backstab ? I did it "honest" without people boosting my possible damage with might stacks/vulnerability/banners etc and ofc it was on light armor (heck, even 10k on daredevil) . I cant imagine how using "pistol5 into hs-steal->backstab" can be fabricated/unfair by your standarts? Or "not being honest" ? Just, what? It would not be honest if I'd took critical strikes and claim I had shadowarts.Give me a reason to make a youtube channel and upload it there except your nonsense "you are not honest but I am".Its so simple, I took current meta build and hit a mesmer (could be any light armored class wearing no toughness amulet/rune) and slap them higher than 9k as you claim to be impossible.With a huge facepalm and no faith in hoomans goin sleep. You are such a time waste dude, not even funny

Impossible in the normal scenario. Its doable if the enemy took off their chest armour and boots, but no real enemy would do that. It might be possible with 25 stacks of might (not sure, didnt do the math), but a thief wont hit 25 stacks of might. Might be possible with 20 extra stacks of vulnerability (youd need a bit more but one extra condi should be enough), but you wont get 25 stacks on enemies. And yes, even on light armour, way too high. I already did the math, I wont repeat myself. And as I pointed out, BP -> HS is still 29% damage short of achieving the number you claim you achieved. As for the option of taking CS, well, I imagine you figured itd be hard to explain why your stealth attack didnt proc Shadow Siphoning.

Look I dont care if you upload a video or not, I already know shenanigans were abound, the evidence shows it. But, here is the fun part. Just to check, I got help from a friendly Ele in the HotM arena. It got a bit messy, there was an annoying Rev who kept trying to attack us (what a prick), but I got it done. Guess what the damage was? If you guessed "well about 8.8k without Executioner multiplier", you are absolutely correct. Here we go. Now, its a bit messy. And Unfortunately, I forgot that I didnt take off Executioner, and he did drop below 50%. However, thankfully thats easily fixed. You simply take the damage I got, and divide it by 1.2. 10524/1.2=8770 damage. All exactly as I said. So then, whats your explanation for how you mysteriously got nearly 30% more damage with the exact same (minus the executioner, my bad on that) damage?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Shao.7236 said:If one can evade spam safely there's no reason to reward it so much. That's why Escapist needs it's ICD increased to 2 or 3 seconds, in the current patch that is.

Digress until the new patch drop to see if evade spamming will even be viable anyway.

What really needs to be addressed right now is the inability to avoid Stealth Attacks. Those need reveals upon channeling in at around ¾ so that people have a reactive chance. Those are always guaranteed damage at a random time, even Stealth Attack from a burst mes are more fair though they could use a reveal too for the more casual/laggy players.

I actually feel like internal cds on thief have always been insane. Let’s just at some in their original state- instant reflexes- 40 sec cd, allowing for it to be up by the time you can rotate from home to far, pain response- 10 sec cd, allowing for burst condition clear in the time it takes to swap targets, upper hand- 2 secs allowing perma regen which it still does and initiative every other time you attack a target. These old cds basically meant that they were always up when u needed them and now that damage is lower they are still decent and let’s look at current ones. Feline grace 5 sec vigor effectively every second like wtf even the nerfed one inc still has perms vigor and isn’t that op? Ef also has a 1 sec cd for 1 condition clear and heal, isn’t that at least as good as pain response was in a condition meta? Maybe better actually. There’s also the stun break one, which is decent and SEq which gave a second steal every 20secs and now is different but basically the same with less burst and since steal is one of the skills in the game that must be really good right? But hey let’s buff steal more with improv right?Internal cds are nuts on thief so is stealth burst and sustain

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Unless thief is nerfed to the point it is no longer a threat there will be this type of thief hate due to their rogue like design, I find it funny a class designed as mesmer is throws most the hate at thief haha.Good example: I play power dp thief and do high burst and its "oh ur playing a broken build with to high of burst and stealth access" trash thief etc etc. I've been playing a totally made up dp condi build that has low burst and slow ramp up and still get same shade thrown at me " oh OP condi thief" " trash thief" when I down them lol. Unless u lose the fight u will always get that kind of shade thrown at u especially the trash thief part which ull get even when they down u lol.

To be fair, imo the current nigh' permastealth d/p build is very noob-proof. You could know kitten about thief as a class and still do good with it. Which is probably why you see so many ppl playing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Unless thief is nerfed to the point it is no longer a threat there will be this type of thief hate due to their rogue like design, I find it funny a class designed as mesmer is throws most the hate at thief haha.Good example: I play power dp thief and do high burst and its "oh ur playing a broken build with to high of burst and stealth access" trash thief etc etc. I've been playing a totally made up dp condi build that has low burst and slow ramp up and still get same shade thrown at me " oh OP condi thief" " trash thief" when I down them lol. Unless u lose the fight u will always get that kind of shade thrown at u especially the trash thief part which ull get even when they down u lol.

To be fair, imo the current nigh' permastealth d/p build is very noob-proof. You could know kitten about thief as a class and still do good with it. Which is probably why you see so many ppl playing it.

this is why you see some many thiefs in general.no matter how bad you are you can always fall back on moving between nodes :D

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

so what you are saying is that I went out of my way to fabricate screenshot of me getting bursted so that mug deals 400 damage then its supposed to?I have a better idea.Watch the screenshot again, THINK. Take 2 secs, Watch it again, FOCUS on it.when you finally find it, come here and apologise for calling me a liar. And better yet, apologise to that O something guy you were accusing of lying too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

so what you are saying is that I went out of my way to fabricate screenshot of me getting bursted so that mug deals 400 damage then its supposed to?I have a better idea.Watch the screenshot again, THINK. Take 2 secs, Watch it again, FOCUS on it.when you finally find it, come here and apologise for calling me a liar. And better yet, apologise to that O something guy you were accusing of lying too.

Oh not neccessarily, there are a couple of ways it can happen. In your case ... uh, ok I might be wrong here, but in your case backstab hit before steal, right? Which changes a lot, as it both causes the previously mentioned damage multipliers to not apply to backstab, and lets Even the Odds boost up Steal. Possibly also throws a fear on you, thanks to Rending Shade, or potentially steals Might from you. In that scenario, yes, backstab can do more damage. However, thats not the normal burst combo. Because that combo requires the thief to be close enough to backstab without steal, and to then use steal. I was under the impression we were talking about the standard steal -> backstab combo. The other way around is actually possibly reactable.

I accused him of being dishonest, not neccessarily lying. But no, I wont apologise for a correct assumption. I think at this point I have clearly and extensively shown that he, one way or another, fabricated a situation to push up the numbers. Both through math, and through an example thanks to a helpful Ele. Even if a Revenant turned it into a bit of a mess.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

Just for clarification, not sure how they would impact calculations- but if you are getting 5 vuln from steal then you are also getting 5 might for backstab and +3 might from steal, also I’m pretty sure the game average per stack of might is something like 1-2% more damage from base line or at least I hear that commonly on streams, which with 8 stacks is 8-16% more which is potentially big.Edit: also it is perfectly reasonable to expect steal after backstab, actually when I watched hitzer play dp incredibly well it seemed he was pistol 3 into backstab very commonly and a steal sometimes after, but possibly that’s a difference playing core dp well and DrD dp well

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dantheman.3589 said:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:I love seeing mesmers complain about any class lol I was in arena couple nights ago playing spellbreaker and a mirage walked up and bursted more than 3/4 of my 19+k/3000 toughness hp in literally a sec lol and had he wanted to could have done it from stealth and they complain about other classes burst? Cmon get outa here.

I've
been a
of Power Mesmer's burst.

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:
not the biggest stab I got boomed by, not the lowest.This is from today, take whatever you will from the screen, I was slow so I died

I mean, that seems about right. A decent amount of burst, but even on a squishy target far from a one-shot. Given that its done by a glass build that pretty much is only good for burst, about the damage Id want it to do. Its lower than other burst builds (by quite a lot), but thief does still have their signature skill, shortbow 5, to give them inherent value that other burst builds (like shatter Mes) lack.

It's a 14k burst, only 7.5k is coming from the Backstab and the rest is coming from multicasting Mug plus the Life Siphon traits. You guys don't seem to be getting the fact that Mug+Shadow Arts is almost doubling your burst capacity.

First of all, the hell is "multicasting mug" supposed to mean. You get it once, and it hits for 1k. You
never
get a 14k burst except on the squishiest target with the glassiest build. The typical burst is 7-9k, depending on how much toughness the enemy has. Which is fine.

Multicasting=casting multiple skills at once= casting a different skill (backstab) and then casting steal+the life siphons to land multiple attacks at the same time.

Ah, thats what you mean. Just ... overlapping skills. Usually you just call it that, we also call it that when Mesmers get like 3 skills at the same time. But I digress, the damage is still much lower than you claim it is. Something you can see when watching any videos of people playing the build.

This "bUt tHe bAcKsTaB Is oNlY SeVeN ThOuSaNd dAmAgE" game you two are playing when you can plainly see from that screenshot another 5.5k damage on top of the back stab which all lands at the same time due to the instant cast nature of Mug and the bonus damage nature of the Shadow Arts life siphon trait is tiresome and deliberately disingenuous.

Especially since Life Steal like Shadow Siphoning+Leeching Venoms ignore armor.

Except thats not 5.5k. Not even close. Lets go over them. If Backstab does 7k damage, then mug will do, roughly, 1.7k. Also if the Life Steal traits ignore armour (which I suspected), then I can safely say 2 instances of Leeching Venom do 414 each, and Shadow Siphoning does 600. So, in reality it does 3.1k. For a total of just over 10k, and thats the higher end. And thats against a glassy build, usually.

"Don't believe you lying eyes showing a 7.5k backstab and a 2860 damage steal"

I mean as I said, thats not possible. Well let me elaborate. Mug does 60% of Backstabs damage when Backstab doesnt crit. With a crit backstab, that would reduce to 30%, which is itself already lower than 2860 for 7.5k. However, the distance between the 2 gets bigger, because Steal applies a number of things alongside its damage. Specifically, 3 conditions, one of which is 5 stacks of vulnerability, and 3 might. Mugs damage does not benefit from these. Backstab does. In total these are, lets see, 1.03*1.06*1.05 and whatever the might is, which is so little Im not going to calculate it. This increases backstabs damage by another 15% relative to mug. Meaning Mug instead does about 50% of backstabs damage without a crit, decreasing to 25% with a crit. 25% of 7500 is 1875. Not 2860.

Just for clarification, not sure how they would impact calculations- but if you are getting 5 vuln from steal then you are also getting 5 might for backstab and +3 might from steal, also I’m pretty sure the game average per stack of might is something like 1-2% more damage from base line or at least I hear that commonly on streams, which with 8 stacks is 8-16% more which is potentially big.

Yeah you are getting 3 might from steal, but it doesnt affect steal damage, only backstab damage. And for D/P Thief, one stack of might is less than 1%? Tbqh I was just too lazy to do the exact math with it, especially given that even without might, my point of Mug doing 25% damage of backstab stands. But yes, Backstab does cause 5 might, but backstab itself doesnt benefit from it, and steal in the normal combo hits prior to backstab and also doesnt. But as I realised above, the screenshot being taken had a backstab -> steal combo, which is unusual to say the least and throws the calculations apart (though for the record, its not a good combo. Its less damage than the other way around).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...