Balance Update Update - Global — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Balance Update Update - Global

edited February 12, 2020 in Professions

Firstly:
Thanks for the feedback from the balance preview posts (original global preview).
Sweet feedback, salty feedback, spicy feedback it's all deeply appreciated as long as it is kept civil.
We got these additional changes for upcoming update that'll likely be in the late notes, so if you don't see them in the immediate release notes, these changes'll still be there.

New Changes:
Feel My Wrath (FMW) was near the top of our list for adjustments for PvE and your feedback pushed it to be unsplit from PvP & WvW now rather than later.

With the balance update, across all modes, Feel My Wrath will be:
Cooldown 35 seconds
Quickness - 5 seconds
Fury - 10 seconds

As per the preview with Stone Flesh, we don't like that a minor trait gives you toughness and can make your elementalist a target in some of our content when that's not the goal of your build. We'll keep finding more places to adjust this, and the solution won't be the same in all places.

We didn't have the opportunity this time to hit all of these cases so if you see something missing it is because we couldn't get to it this time. It's still on the list to adjust Soon(tm).

  • Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.
  • Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

As a sidenote to this specific type of change: This is NOT something that we're changing if it is a major trait choice for this reason alone. If there are other reasons for changing traits, we'll look at this independently.

Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

  • Spiked Armor
  • Thick Skin
  • Pack Alpha (with SB)
  • Armored Shroud

While we won't be able to get in more changes after this week for this release, we'll be taking notes for the future.

Please keep posting your civil, sweet, salty and spicy feedback.
-The Systems Team

Irenio 'Kui'
GW2 Systems

Tagged:
<1

Comments

  • Re: Throw Mine, was it an explicit decision to keep the buffed 3-boon strip only to PvP? That is, do you see more boonstrip in PvE as being potentially overpowered? It's already a seldom-used skill in PvE, but the boonstrip would be nice to give it some use there (e.g. being useful in Fractals with No Pain, No Gain).

  • Its good to see that FMW is being changed, but I don't think this change is not big enough to shake up the meta. You can still keep up quickness with 4 dh's and a chrono in the other subgroup.

    Also Time Warp deserves a similar nerf as FMW, especially with the buffs to power chrono coming up with the patch.

  • MoXAriApph.3650MoXAriApph.3650 Member ✭✭
    edited February 12, 2020

    Is there anyone on the balance team who can explain why Soulbeast can't swap pets mid-fight in this next update? We're this late into the game and this is an inane change. If you're looking to add drawbacks, there already is one by swapping pets, there's a LARGE cooldown upon unmerging/swapping/merging back, and it doesn't make sense in a PvE perspective. There's nothing innately broken about Soulbeast in general when it comes to swapping pets, it's a direct nerf to Condi Soulbeasts already VERY lacking CC, and a very annoying change to anyone who plays the Power Variant.
    This change seems like an absolute joke.

    Auto-ignoring anyone responding with the same gibberish "nerf meta' attitude, genuinely looking for an answer from the devs on this one.

  • The Feel my wrath change is good , but its not enaugh to make this skill less opressive in pve. I highly advise to look at the skill again as well.

  • The Feel my Wratch change in most cases is actually leading to the opposite you intend.
    The problem with it was guardian stacking ( either Firebrand or Dragonhunter).

    So after some simple math you can still stack Firebrands in the way you did before without dropping quickness. And you can still stack DHs as before as long as you have 1 Chrono in your squad (which was already needed before ).

    Here a simple example:

    Old shout 45 seconds cd - 8 seconds of quicknes : With alacrity: 36 seconds cd- 8 seconds of quickness ( so with 3 dhs in a subgrp, the chrono overflow quickness had to fill 12 seconds )

    New shout 35 seconds cd- 5 seconds of quickness : With alacrity: 28 seconds cd- 5 seconds os quickness ( so with 3 dhs in a subgrp, the chrono overflow quickness has to fill 13 seconds ) WILL NOT CHANGE ANYTHING

    on firebrand it is also still enough quickness if you have 3 of them in each subrgp with liberators vow and quickness shout.

    LEADS ME TO THE POINT WHERE THIS CHANGE MAKES IT ACTUALLY WORSE:
    Fractals: in high end fractals there are quite a few encounters where you were able to synergize moa stance of the slb and a quickness shout to just get enough quickness for the phase (namely 16 seconds ) now you can just generate 10 seconds this way. Sure you might wanna think: "ok the dh has to go firebrand then " but if you face reality " you will just replace 1 dps class with ANOTHER dh to actually have enough quickness for the entire thing.

    Conclusion: you tried to avoid guardian stacking in raids... which you failed on dear ArenaNet and managed to create a demand for guardian stacking in some fractal encounters (i am speaking of high end grps ) where it was not actually needed before.
    THANKS FOR THAT!

  • To add to what Bovan said above, I would love to propose a change that I feel is more in place instead of overall nerfing the ability. The problem with the aforementioned change is that it hits solo players just as much as it hits stacking. This is in my opinion the wrong way to go and I would love to see it changed in a way that reduces the effectiveness to allies and keeps the standard duration on yourself, so instead of the change make it along the lines of:

    Cooldown(45s)
    Self-Quickness(8s)
    Allies-Quickness(4s)
    Target cap(5)

    This design is already seen in stance sharing from Soulbeast, and in my opinion would perfectly fit this skill aswell, basically killing it's effectiveness in stacking quickness for a longer duration in a group, but making it still very valuable in solo play.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Why not just drop toughness and vitality from Imbued Haste altogether? Healing power and condition damage is relevant already as a minor trait.

    Whereas elemental polyphony is controlled by the player, it is quite possible quickness ends when you don't want it to if you're not the only quickness source. Because 250 vitality lost can result in dying (i.e. if you just took a hit from a large damage attack , since guardians only have ~11K base HP), I really don't think that's a worthwhile addition to the trait. The same goes for WvW/PvP if it is changed from +150 toughness to vitality.

  • :(. I was hoping this small update was going to say you had realised your error in globally changing Obsidian Flesh, and would now limit the change to PvP and Wvw only. Because Obsidian Flesh isn't causing any unfair balance issues in PvE right? I hardly see my raid groups full of Condi Weavers when condi DPS is asked for....!!! Instead I see loads of Firebrands, who can Aegis themselves when they feel like it, or Mirages with continual dodges. Obsidian flesh hardly makes Condi Weaver the go to class... I rarely see others...

    So can this skill please be split, so that I don't get punished for accidentally fat fingering it in the middle of a raid and getting locked out of my skills for 4 seconds. The change basically makes a situationally useful skill into an utterly useless one that might as well be deleted from the skill bar, something you'll never want to use in PvE. As condi Weaver is a DPS build, you're not going to want to not DPS for 4 seconds ever.

    Please, please, split this skill change. From what I understand it caused some issues in PvP and solo WvW builds, but causes zero issue in PvE.

    Save my niche little skill from damnation :(.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    when will u make herald an viable boon-giver? or let me ask like that: when will the overall boonspam be teared down?

  • Dryhavich.1206Dryhavich.1206 Member
    edited February 12, 2020

    @Aerythia.6415 said:
    :(. I was hoping this small update was going to say you had realised your error in globally changing Obsidian Flesh, and would now limit the change to PvP and Wvw only. Because Obsidian Flesh isn't causing any unfair balance issues in PvE right? I hardly see my raid groups full of Condi Weavers when condi DPS is asked for....!!! Instead I see loads of Firebrands, who can Aegis themselves when they feel like it, or Mirages with continual dodges. Obsidian flesh hardly makes Condi Weaver the go to class... I rarely see others...

    So can this skill please be split, so that I don't get punished for accidentally fat fingering it in the middle of a raid and getting locked out of my skills for 4 seconds. The change basically makes a situationally useful skill into an utterly useless one that might as well be deleted from the skill bar, something you'll never want to use in PvE. As condi Weaver is a DPS build, you're not going to want to not DPS for 4 seconds ever.

    Please, please, split this skill change. From what I understand it caused some issues in PvP and solo WvW builds, but causes zero issue in PvE.

    Save my niche little skill from damnation :(.

    I agree with @Aerythia.6415 re: the Obsidian Flesh change. It should be kept as it currently is in PvE, but it definitely should be changed in PvP/WvW. Most long-time Elementalist players will agree, considering the feedback I saw in the original post. The 50-second cooldown balances it out pretty nicely as is in PvE, since it's pretty much already a waste to use it recklessly.

  • I want my second pet as a soulbeast, please increase pet swap cooldown in combat as tradeoff dont remove access to second pet, keep soulbeast gameplay dynamic, versatile and spicy other than that Laying down the groundwork™ On the table™ Soon™ .

    So sweet... So cold... if only the others could taste it...
    So...so good... The crunch of bones...makes it go away, only for a little while...

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Firstly:
    Thanks for the feedback from the balance preview posts (original global preview).
    Sweet feedback, salty feedback, spicy feedback it's all deeply appreciated as long as it is kept civil.
    We got these additional changes for upcoming update that'll likely be in the late notes, so if you don't see them in the immediate release notes, these changes'll still be there.

    New Changes:
    Feel My Wrath (FMW) was near the top of our list for adjustments for PvE and your feedback pushed it to be unsplit from PvP & WvW now rather than later.

    With the balance update, across all modes, Feel My Wrath will be:
    Cooldown 35 seconds
    Quickness - 5 seconds
    Fury - 10 seconds

    As per the preview with Stone Flesh, we don't like that a minor trait gives you toughness and can make your elementalist a target in some of our content when that's not the goal of your build. We'll keep finding more places to adjust this, and the solution won't be the same in all places.

    We didn't have the opportunity this time to hit all of these cases so if you see something missing it is because we couldn't get to it this time. It's still on the list to adjust Soon(tm).

    • Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.
    • Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

    As a sidenote to this specific type of change: This is NOT something that we're changing if it is a major trait choice for this reason alone. If there are other reasons for changing traits, we'll look at this independently.

    Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

    • Spiked Armor
    • Thick Skin
    • Pack Alpha (with SB)
    • Armored Shroud

    While we won't be able to get in more changes after this week for this release, we'll be taking notes for the future.

    Please keep posting your civil, sweet, salty and spicy feedback.
    -The Systems Team

    Can spiked instead be +10 toughness per might stack, or at least a better source of retaliation? Can Thick Skin be a flat 5% damage reduction on some condition, like being within 600 units of the the attacking for?

    I know that Last Stand is slated for an overhaul. Can it instead function like Berserker's Power but for damage reduction or toughness?

    Throwing ideas out there, but don't want something op.

  • Kanok.3027Kanok.3027 Member ✭✭✭

    Still looking for competitive mode changes to Revenant weapon animation times to be split and for old, faster times to be re-implemented, like with Shackling Wave being restored to the previous animation time for PvE and no build up for Surge of the Mists in PvE, since it literally serves no purpose outside of PvP balance except to reduce out overall numbers and become less effective in PvE content.

    I Rev, therefore I am. Don't ruin my favorite class, please and thank you.

  • So is "unbroken lines" for Firebrand going to be looked at as well? It gives 300 toughness, which can ruin tanking when it comes up.

  • Infusion.7149Infusion.7149 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @MisterDapper.5984 said:
    So is "unbroken lines" for Firebrand going to be looked at as well? It gives 300 toughness, which can ruin tanking when it comes up.

    It affects other people too however

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.
    • Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

    As a sidenote to this specific type of change: This is NOT something that we're changing if it is a major trait choice for this reason alone. If there are other reasons for changing traits, we'll look at this independently.

    Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

    • Spiked Armor
    • Thick Skin
    • Pack Alpha (with SB)
    • Armored Shroud

    How is this going to work with Pack Alpha? Will it be a simple nerf, so that Rangers receive the 150 boost to all except toughness? Would that extra 150 end up moved into vitality? Or % damage reduction instead of toughness?

    With Armored Shroud, if you change toughness to vitality, that is going to impact shroud duration, or are you considering simple damage reduction instead of toughness?

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.
    • Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

    Feedback on this bit: a good change that toughness is coming off, but vitality feels like a bit of a shaky choice here. Is it possible to change the toughness component to armor instead? That would make it functionally identical but solve the raid boss aggro problem.

  • SpinDashMaster.5680SpinDashMaster.5680 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    I'm very glad you guys listened on the toughness topics I pointed out in the other thread. I feel like you addressed them perfectly. Vitality is a much better substitute for toughness in both cases.

    Now, for the matter of the oppressive FMW meta that others have posted. Reducing the recharge time at the same time as nerfing the quickness duration is actually a nearly net-zero change in the scope of where FMW is broken: stacking Dragonhunters/Firebrands in raid content. They can just take turns firing the skill to keep quickness up in their subgroup long enough to phase a boss, thereby doing higher damage as 5 DPS than 4 DPS and a dedicated quickness generator with boon duration geared.

    To appropriately catch this problem, you need to take away the DPS's easy access to quickness. Move the quickness off of FMW, to the never-used Firebrand elite, Portent of Freedom! (The parent Elite is Mantra of Liberation) Make this give just 2s of quickness, and your Support FBs will easily make use of it, by throwing 2 of the charges out for easy Retal and Quickness seeding. Pure DPS classes, on the other hand, will struggle much more because of the internal quickness cap of 5 and needing to micromanage quickness applications. (Dragonhunters won't even have access to it!)

    As for FMW, for those who feel like they have enough Quickness through traits and abilities, this skill should provide a different boon. Why not a solid 5 stacks of Might?

  • I desperately want to see something done with splitblade (ranger axe 2). It had its power boosted in WvW a while back and I just can't understand why pve didn't get that as well? I love using double axes on my ranger but the fact that this skill does so little damage makes it feel like I only have 4 weapon skills.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    Thanks a bunch for addressing my concerns. Since I was mistaken about how dynamic Vitality affects your HP, I'm glad to know I won't need to worry about dropping dead when a buff effect ends if I was in devastating straits (ha ha!). I'm also very glad to know that the current upcoming iteration of Obsidian Flesh is being looked at, and is acknowledged as not a quite ideal solution. While we're looking at traits, I don't suppose looking at Rock Solid would be a worthwhile endeavor? A Master trait that only gives 1 stack of Stability in a very pitiful range around you for 2 seconds when Attuning to Earth (and doesn't even properly work if double Attuning when you're a Weaver and already have Earth in your mainhand) seems a bit lacking to say the least.

  • @MoXAriApph.3650 said:
    Is there anyone on the balance team who can explain why Soulbeast can't swap pets mid-fight in this next update? We're this late into the game and this is an inane change. If you're looking to add drawbacks, there already is one by swapping pets, there's a LARGE cooldown upon unmerging/swapping/merging back, and it doesn't make sense in a PvE perspective. There's nothing innately broken about Soulbeast in general when it comes to swapping pets, it's a direct nerf to Condi Soulbeasts already VERY lacking CC, and a very annoying change to anyone who plays the Power Variant.
    This change seems like an absolute joke.

    Auto-ignoring anyone responding with the same gibberish "nerf meta' attitude, genuinely looking for an answer from the devs on this one.

    Kinda late response but the I believe the reasoning for this is because the devs are trying to align the elite specs back into the vision they originally had when HoT was released, but missed the mark. The devs originally wanted elite specs to simply be an “alternative play style” compared to what the base class offered, but ended up simply being a massive gain over anything the base class offered. Either you took your elite spec or you were fundamentally weaker without it.

    More recently as seen with the other elite spec changes, such as Daredevil swipe range being reduced, Druid pet damage nerf, Scrapper health reduction, berserker allowing standard burst abilities, etc, Anet is wanting to continue this trend into other elite specs.

    Soulbeast was notorious for being a 100% improvement over base ranger. If there is a base ranger build, there’s no reason not to through in the soulbeast line. While yes, there’s long cooldowns for swapping pets and re-merging, that’s not necessarily a trade off because it’s simply how the class works. The only really trade offs possible would have been to either be permanently merged with pets at all times but can still swap, or only have one pet at a time. With this changes you now need to make a choice of whether losing one of your pets is worth taking the soulbeast line. More than likely it will be, players will just need to find ways to compensate it such as using something like warthog for condi which has a headbutt ability when merged.

    While I do agree that it is unfortunate such substantial nerfs and changes are coming to elite specs, I can agree with the devs that reducing the power creep brought with elite specs is a good direction.

  • Btw you should reconsider removing empty vessel trait for revenant.
    At least put a similar functionnality in another trait or make it baseline for the revenant profession.
    Or make breakstun of each legend better (cost less or other thing) and give one to ventari ! D:

  • Bovan.9481Bovan.9481 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Regarding FMW changes - we're going to see how things land after this set of changes and adjust further, if needed. We're not trying to take FMW out entirely - it should still be a decent source of group quickness, but it shouldn't be leading to stuff as dominant as it currently is.
    With some of the other changes coming in this patch, including a bugfix to Zealous Blades still granting 10% damage when it wasn't supposed to, there are enough moving pieces that we don't want to do so large a takedown that something becomes unused entirely.

    Okay that's fair enough. I'm sure the skill getting nerfed into nothingness is something absolutely no one wants to see, so I'm happy to wait it out and see where it ends up. The combination of the Zealous Blades bug getting fixed alongside a reduction in ''Feel My Wrath!'' were my two biggest concerns and worries for this patch so it's good to see things getting adressed.

    What does worry me is the speed of updates. Of course it takes time for changes to settle in, but if the ''Feel My Wrath!'' change doesn't end up making enough of a difference can we expect to see an update in a shorter amount of time compared to how long it's normally taken for big patches to hit the live servers? I am concerned that we may not see another update in several months even if it did not work out.

    Also this will be a little bit off-topic but as I'm writing things anyway, is there any kind of internal talk or discussion going on regarding Necromancer in PvE? I'm aware it has a healthy playerbase in open world but it's a little bit sad to see how far it's behind on a lot of bosses and places in raids. This goes for both condi Scourge as well as power Reaper. I have about a thousand different questions regarding most classes and builds but Necromancer is probably up there as something I'm the most interested in, and seeing it not getting anything relevant for high-end PvE made my heart sink just a little bit.

  • alain.1659alain.1659 Member ✭✭✭

    I really wish to learn the future plans for revenant profession along with renegade, ventari and their competitive viability. I think revenants build diversity is only theoric and many possible variations do not work well in competitive game modes. Renegade might be used with shiro and jalis combo yet ventari is totally subpar when compared to other support/heal professions.

  • SirTomato.3627SirTomato.3627 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    What the point of FMW change? It change nothing you just have to use it more often due cooldown reduction.

    Few posts above have proposed nice alternatives like completely remove quickness from it and replace it with might. At least this change will be more weightful than current one.

  • No change to aim assit rocket 450 distance requirement... Really sad your tacking out 2 traits I use to love and enjoy on my sword shield holo. The new trait look awesome except I wont be able to use it cause engi is a melee class. Grenade and mortar are not fun or even well design distance weapons. Remove the 450 it make no sence on engineer to have a trait for distance combat. If you stick with it, this patch will take out such a lot from my build... Its small but for my its a huge detail. Please remove the 450 distance thing.

  • hugo.4705hugo.4705 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    we don't want to do so large a takedown that something becomes unused entirely.

    Is anything planned to revamp/help turrets? Since the overcharge removal nerf, nothing happened to them. Just use search on forums to see how many threads for zre made for turrets. Here is an interesting one:
    Thoughts/Hopes/Ideas about Engineer's rework on Pistols, Turrets and Kits

    I highly suggest you to go visit the Engineer subforum. I'm just curious about those skills ^^.

    +++In creative mood. New Engie Elite spec' , Housing , New asuran expansion , Designing a new lounge , New GameMode
    +++NEW: AEP Asuran Expansion Project available on WIKI.
    +++New: GEM GW2 Exploration Map: Discover unusual places around tyria: Here (OSM map)

  • lederhosen.7530lederhosen.7530 Member
    edited February 13, 2020

    Allright, time for some sweet, salty and spicy feedback on the upcoming changes as requested.


    Engineer:

    The updates to the Explosives traitline are very welcome and will certainly make Power Holosmith a lot more viable in PvE endgame. For Power Holosmith both Enhanced Capacity Storage Unit (ECST) and Photonic Blasting Module (PBM) will be viable damage traits with ECST providing more damage overall coupled with Sword as a mainhand weapon (the rotation can be seen here). This rotation ideally requires players to enter Photon Forge at specific heat values (around ~90 Heat) and exit just before they would overheat (since overheating is a major DPS loss with ECST) by using Corona Burst and immediately disengaging Photon Forge afterwards. Outside of Photon Forge player starts losing heat (cooling) and can wait until ~90 Heat to enter Photon Forge again.

    My concern is that this heat management outside of Photon Forge can become annoying to deal with. Unlike PBM, you cannot preheat to specific values at the start of an encounter because of immediate cooling (only possible in very coordinated groups that can time the start of an encounter). On fights with a lot of downtime between attacking and doing other stuff perfect heat management is considerably harder to achieve. Not impossible, but hard and sometimes annoying because you cannot control everything that is going on around you. So what I am proposing can be considered as a QoL update:

    • ECST (PvE): Increases maximum heat capacity. While above 100% heat, periodically gain might. Some skills and traits gain additional heat tiers. Engaging Photon Forge while cooling will no longer cause the player to enter Photon Forge but will immediately end cooling. Engaging Photon Forge a second time allows the player to enter Photon Forge as usual.

    This way the players can fixate the amount of heat they want before entering the Photon Forge while using ECST.


    Ranger:

    The changes to the Skirmishing traitline are welcome. Power Soulbeasts will now most likely use this traitline over Marksmanship which was a pretty bland traitline (only taken because of 20% damage modifiers). My concern here is the Twice as Vicious (TaV) change. The additive modifier is being changed from 5% to 10%. The overall design of the trait means that you have to use CC skills as part of your rotation in PvE endgame and I don't find this particularly good design. CC skills should be used reactively and buffing Twice as Vicious will make things worse.

    Anyhow, for Power Soulbeast the change can be accepted since this spec already has to use CC skills as part of their rotation and can maintain a very high TaV uptime without any problems. For Condi Soulbeast, maintaining a 10% modifier is certainly very attractive, but how to do it? There really is a small amount of CC skills for this spec and these are mostly on high cooldown (>20-25 seconds). With the trait as it is, the only way to solve this problem would be the introduction of some form of new CC in my eyes. This can be done in many ways obviously, but I'd propose a change to off-hand Dagger skill Crippling Talon:

    • Crippling Talon (PvE): Throw a dagger to bleed and cripple your foe. If your foe is already crippled, daze them instead (1/2 second daze).

    Since Crippling Talon is an ammunition skill with a recharge 12 seconds (without Alacrity), this update would make it possible for Condi Soulbeasts to maintain a high TaV uptime by carefully using this skill in 10 seconds intervals.


    These are two things that caught my eye while I was reading the patch notes. I hope this feedback can help the Systems Team in some way.

  • It’s good that fmw will be nerfed. But still the proposed changes wouldnt change anything in guardian stack meta. It should be reworked to the point where dh/fb dps stack wouldn’t be able to provide 100% quickness uptime for team. There is too
    much blue in the meta nowadays. It kills sense of playing any other classes especially in raids if u can have one guardian char to be meta almost everywhere plus u have insane amount of blocks and utility with braindead rotations. Another problem is obsidian flesh rework in pve. I can imagine how frustriating it can be in pvp/wvw but in pve its rly life saving skill for cweaver. Condi weaver has slightly higher burst and dps than cfb but the rotation and it execution in raid conditions requires a lot of skill and almost perfect alacrity uptime for perfect weave. Perfect weave looks like one huge 20 sec continuum split and if we fail it our dps is rip. Obsidian flesh help us a lot in proper rota execution but with this change it dont help it can ruin our whole rotation with one missclick. I know that condi weaver is quite masochistic build but please dont make it even more. There is enough reasons to delete ele characters today.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    Soulbeast: Soulbeasts can no longer swap pets while in combat. Merging and unmerging with your pet now counts as a pet swap for the purposes of the Clarion Bond and Zephyr's Speed traits.

    Is it possible for the balance team to consider adding Spirited Arrival (Nature magic) to the list of traits triggered when merging/unmerging? Spirited Arrival is similarly tied to swaping pet while in combat. It's strange that it isn't listed.

    Edit: Death Carapace (instead of Armored Shroud) giving vitality or DR instead of toughness would be great for the flexibility of the traitline in PvE. I'd even root for Deadly Strength to replace the vitality from Death Carapace by power instead of adding power to the buff.

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    If the goal is to tweak the Toughness granting traits because of how agro works, would it not be useful then to have traits and skills to BOOST toughness for those that want to have the ability to pull agro away from others? You have to admit that would be an extra layer of gameplay that should be an option to players.

    When you guys revamp Thick Skin, Armored Attack, Defy Pain, and Last Stand can you take this into consideration and provide a means in the Defense line to 'manage' the agro either through controlled increases in toughness or by taunting the foe? I mentioned up above having might grant +10 toughness as an option for Armored Attack, this is a good example of being able to control the amount of toughness and thus agro.

    Some utility skills that could easily be revamped to aid in this are "On My Mark!" and Dolyak Signet, neither of which is used all that much anywhere. I fully expect a split with the competitive modes.

  • Xyonon.3987Xyonon.3987 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    As a part of the (earlier mentioned in this thread) "high-end PvE community" I'm very happy about the update on FMW. I'm very grateful for both, your decision to adjust the patch notes according to the feedback you've got from us and the fact that you actually care about the speedrunning / best in slot comps for Raids. To me (and I'm sure I can speak for many raiders out there) this means a lot and it's a great feeling being noticed. So thank you for that! :)


    About Dragonhunter and Feel My Wrath:

    Now, to share my thoughts to the topic: The goal (and this seems to be some sort of misconception for many ppl) is not to nerf FMW. The goal is it (and it's very important to keep this in mind!), to prevent people from being forced to stack 3 Guardians over all other dps specs due to them providing Quickness. Nerfing FMW is supposed to be the solution and not the reason here! In theory you could buff FMW to a point where you would only need one DH for Quickness, "solving" the stacking issue but ofc this would create a ton of new issues. So that's out of the question, but how to correctly adjust FMW to get the desired outcome?

    With your changes to reduce the duration from 8s to 5s and the cooldown from approximately 36.5s to 28.5s (this includes the cast time under the effects of Quickness and Alacrity), you're reducing the uptime per FMW from ~22% to ~17.5%. This is normally paired with the smart usage of a Soulbeast's Moa stance to increase the uptime to ~36.5% respectively new ~29.1%. You will normally stack 3 DHs in one subgroup with the Soulbeast and a Renegade for best buff distribution. This means atm you easily have above 100% uptime on Quickness, post patch you'll end up with about ~87.4%. Does that mean you solved the issue? Not quite. What might happen here is, that you now simply force the Chronomancer to compensate for the nerf. So what is the change here? "Reducing FMW's uptime from 100% to ~87.4% = Chrono loses a big chunk of dps, DH stacking still persists." But this is mere speculation and might not be the case. Another solution of "not wanting to stack DHs" is, to make it less desirable to get rid of dedicated Quickness providers, thus buffing the dps of those, like you do with GS Chrono this patch. However this only works if at the same time the DH also is not best in slot as a dps spec while also providing Quickness (sceptical gaze towards the Virtue buff here).

    All in all the change to FMW will have an uncertain outcome. It might be enough, but it might as well backfire and if that happens I'd be happy to not spend another half a year looking at squads in blue. So please be quick to further adjust FWM if required, before the next big balance patch. In my opinion the by far best suggestion I've read todate is from this guy:

    @Commander Sealjan.5872 said:
    ...make it along the lines of:

    Cooldown(45s)
    Self-Quickness(8s)
    Allies-Quickness(4s)
    Target cap(5)

    This is genius. Not only would this reduce Quickness sharing uptimes to a degree where stacking DHs becomes very unattractive, but also would it still keep FMW relevant for the Guardian himself (solo) and to potentially close a Quickness gap here and there in an encounter. So my vote goes to this one!


    About dps Firebrand and dps Chronomancer:

    Now since we are on the topic of Quickness and Guardian stacking, without another wall'o'text here, I'd suggest to next** take a look at Firebrand stacking**. It essentially has the same issue, or rather, it's more efficient to stack 0% dedicated FB for Quickness instead of having 1 FB providing Quickness. The main issue here is to have a condi spec that bursts like a power one and has one of the highest condi dps numbers while also providing Quickness.

    Also do not forget about Time Warp chaining by stacking dps Chronos, which quickly becomes toxic as well. It is very unfortunate to have a worse use of Time Warp as a support Chrono than a dps Chrono. Here you might simply reduce its duration and cd, so you have the same effect if used in and right after CS, for every CS (90s cd), as dps Chronos can't afford to do that. Maybe adjust the Quickness stack cap (atm 5) as well (new 9).


    About Mesmer's Mirror Blade changes:

    And to finish this post off, I have a question / suggestion / concern about the new variant of Mirror Blades for Mesmer. You mentioned that each bounce will reduce the damage by 15%. Please make sure that these 15% do not happen if it bounces to an ally, as it would extremely quickly deal very tiny damage (rendering the traited 2 additional bounces rather useless).


    That will be all - Thank you for reading!
    - Xyonon (the engi sheet guy :3)

    Xyonon | Ziggs Ironeye | Madame Le Blanc | [CnD] Crits N Dips

  • @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    Regarding Obsidian Flesh - This is something on our list to look at to address in a different way in the not-distant future and we've got a few ideas, but there isn't time to prototype and get these tested and QA'd. We're going to be looking at this to give you more potential control and address some of the concerns you've raised in this (and other) threads.

    I want to quickly expand on this, because this comes up a fair amount regularly:
    We aren't going to split core functionality between game modes.

    In general, core functionality includes:

    Cast Times
    Missile Velocity
    Range
    Radius
    Pulse Intervals

    ...and other stuff too, but basically the stuff that changes the way the skill plays.

    Sigh Ok, I see now. Thank you for the response at least. I really hope that you realise this is taking away a skill that had niche usefulness to PvE condi weavers, and replacing it with a literal "don't touch me" button than will cause frustration when fat fingered. Sure, it's only a tiny proportion of people affected, as not many play condi weaver at all due to it having a difficult rotation and ultimately there are easier, more effective condi DPS out there - Firebrand and Mirage being the top ones. However, I always assumed that the aim of balance patches is to ensure diversity in use of professions and elite specs. This change will have the opposite effect and drive people away from weaver as a condi option and on to those dominating classes that are much easier to play.

    I play weaver because I love it, not because I think it's the best. But at some point I have to ask myself, is it worth it any more? From what it seems this balance patch will change my condi weaver from something that used to be a little less squishy that usual, and had a single skill that I could use to negate a mechanic if I perfectly lined it up, to something more squishy, with fluctuating HP and with a button that if I accidentally press it, I'm useless for 4 seconds. Hardly sounds tempting.

    If you say you can't split functionality of Obsidian Flesh, then can you at least reduce the duration of the skill in PvE? Have invuln for only 1-2secs, no more? At least that would halve the time I'm locked out of my skills if I accidentally press it. Because there is no way I will intentionally be using that skill after the balance patch.

  • Ghos.1326Ghos.1326 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048

    Soulbeast: Soulbeasts can no longer swap pets while in combat. Merging and unmerging with your pet now counts as a pet swap for the purposes of the Clarion Bond and Zephyr's Speed traits.

    Is it possible for the balance team to consider adding Spirited Arrival (Nature magic) to the list of traits triggered when merging/unmerging? Spirited Arrival is similarly tied to swaping pet while in combat. It's strange that it isn't listed.

    Edit: Death Carapace (instead of Armored Shroud) giving vitality or DR instead of toughness would be great for the flexibility of the traitline in PvE. I'd even root for Deadly Strength to replace the vitality from Death Carapace by power instead of adding power to the buff.

    I think it will. As they've stated in their other post, merging/unmerging will be counting as pet swap when the patch hits, so having one pet won't change anything in terms of running runes/traits that require a pet swap.

    The greatest enemy to improvement, is ignorance. But the desire to learn will cast ignorance into the fire.

  • Chungo.3169Chungo.3169 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    My grain of sand ... I am the main revolutionary with more than 10,000 pvp games played (in case this information is of any use)

    I understand that adjusting RS and some energy costs, but how they are addressing it is not the right way and I will explain why.
    Empty container disappears, then you will need to use 70/80% of your energy to clean a stun in shiro / jalis / mallyx (glint is separate since it spends 0 relative and Ventari has no breakstun), after that it will not have energy to counterattack to his enemy, basically he will not be able to do anything. One idea would be to put cd leaving the cost intact, to avoid spam and do more than simply execute basic punches or run after leaving the stun. Now the question is ... Does any profession of gw2 have this mechanics implanted? Well, then being punished without weapon skills or legends for cleaning a daze is correct?
    Other main rev to comment?

  • Id say the big issue with FMW is that you don't have to invest much into it to be able to abuse it's power in PvE.

    Maybe nerfing it way harder and giving it's power back into the shout trait, something like Shouts have 100% increased base boon duration etc (could be split to +50% or less for Wvw tho I don't think duration is the issue there since all the corrupts)

    Then you could make a FMW that's like 3seconds of quickness and still leave access to a decent FMW to people playing support.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    we don't like that a minor trait gives you toughness and can make you a target in some of our content when that's not the goal of your build.

    Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

    • Armored Shroud

    Its going to be very interesting to see how you solve this one considering the fact that changing that trait changes how the entire line works now that carapace was forced into it rather than just making something flat that works all the time like the other lines on other professions have.

    I doubt it will be as easy as just swapping it to vitality allowing scaling vitality in combat which seems like a massive balance issue considering how many traits and things vitality is tied to with the necromancer not to mention it already has a vitality trait in another line. I mean the idea of slapping some one with a curse and in theory leeching some vitality off them (without reducing theirs) is pretty cool and all but boy does that seem like balance nightmare.

  • Rauderi.8706Rauderi.8706 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I can understand the need for Soulbeast trade-offs, but I think there's a way to do it more dynamically while still balancing the ability to merge/unmerge.

    The choice to merge gives beneficial stats, skill options, and serves to restore pet HP on unmerging.

    It's also a choice of whether to have pet backup support for kinda-tanking or doing damage while the PC disengages/repositions. Pet is sustained pressure. Merging removes that option temporarily. So the merge/unmerge cooldown is already a balancing point. The tradeoff happens during Beastmode. That's what I would argue. Making Beastmode a more impactful choice might involve increasing swap and merge cooldowns.

    It's also not a good thing to get blind-sided by an attack that puts a player in combat, stuck with a pet inappropriate for the situation. Pet swapping flexibility needs to be there.

    Looking specifically at swap/merge as a heal, it could be that the pet is made weaker (similar to the Druid tradeoff) to offset the extra healing it could receive.

    Or, if you want to encourage players to stay in Beastmode so the pet isn't out as often, it might be in theme and have some executional parallel with Berserker to lower the Ranger's stats a little, then offer larger bonuses for using Beastmode. Then, unmerging to swap pets makes a brief moment of vulnerability that becomes a tactical choice.

    Many alts! Handle it!

    "A condescending answer might as well not be an answer at all."
    -Eloc Freidon.5692

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Moira Shalaar.5620 said:

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:

    • Weaver's Elemental Polyphany will grant vitality instead of toughness while attuned to earth.
    • Firebrand's Imbued Haste will grant vitality instead of toughness while you have quickness.

    As a sidenote to this specific type of change: This is NOT something that we're changing if it is a major trait choice for this reason alone. If there are other reasons for changing traits, we'll look at this independently.

    Other traits with this behavior that we'll be looking at along these lines are:

    • Spiked Armor
    • Thick Skin
    • Pack Alpha (with SB)
    • Armored Shroud

    With Armored Shroud, if you change toughness to vitality, that is going to impact shroud duration, or are you considering simple damage reduction instead of toughness?

    It wont impact shroud duration in terms of natural decay. No matter how many points are in the bar decay is a percentage based drain. The only thing it will change how ever is how much damage one can take when hit. I also think simple damage reduction might be the better way to go but generally changing that trait is gonna change how people look at the whole line i suppose they could do percent reductions based on count thresholds
    x % above 5
    x % above 15
    x % above 25
    etc

    But % reduction is almost always better than flat stats like toughness so how much reduction is too much before it gets out of hand even more so in the pvp side.

  • Regarding FMW changes - we're going to see how things land after this set of changes and adjust further, if needed. We're not trying to take FMW out entirely - it should still be a decent source of group quickness, but it shouldn't be leading to stuff as dominant as it currently is.

    I don't want to be mean, and I'm sorry if you take it at such, but this shows to me that the balance team does not have an idea how oppressive this skill really is. This skill simply in it's current state, no matter what duration/cooldown, can never be good at buffing your team while not being oppressive. It is just not possible period. The current change might shake up the meta on some bosses but why? Because Dragonhunter is also getting a bugfix that will reduce it's damage. Please look at the skill again in a new way instead of throwingly (sorry) completely meaningless changes to it.

    And a big +1 to Xyonon's suggestion to look at firebrand aswell, the class simply does not give up nearly enough damage to provide a large amount of quickness, therefor is easily better than going full DPS with a dedicated quickness support.

    although > Maybe adjust the Quickness stack cap (atm 5) as well (new 9). Would break some things imo

  • Cpt Crunch.7058Cpt Crunch.7058 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 said:
    I want to quickly expand on this, because this comes up a fair amount regularly:
    We aren't going to split core functionality between game modes.

    In general, core functionality includes:

    Cast Times
    Missile Velocity
    Range
    Radius
    Pulse Intervals

    ...and other stuff too, but basically the stuff that changes the way the skill plays.

    Please double check your changes then. Include also ammo charges and what other profession mechanics a skill is supposed to produce. Some skill splits do exactly this.
     
     
    For example, Staff 3 on Mesmer will produce 1 phantasm in PvP/WvW but 2 phantasms in PvE. This change causes those that get used to a rotation in PvE to be one clone short for a 3-clone shatter in PvP/WvW, while those that get used to a rotation for PvP/WvW will overproduce a clone in PvE thus effectively wasting it. Definitely a huge change in functionality.
     
     
    The elite skill Jaunt has 2 ammo charges in PvP/WvW but 3 charges in PvE. As someone who mainly plays in WvW I can tell you that I hardly ever use that 3rd charge in PvE due to the muscle memory that has been built up. In PvE the result ends up being "oh! there's another charge available!" as its a split has made it easier to accept that its a 2-charge skill.
     
     
    Also, the -50 endurance in PvP/WvW for Mirage change does all of this.... but at various levels! Dodging for the Mirage is both an offensive and a defensive mechanic. The change is so drastic that Mirage in PvP/WvW would handle completely different from how it handles in PvE. A massive change to "the stuff that changes the way the skill plays."
     
     
    Either find a way to make more of these changes global and balanced across the game modes so muscle memory isn't being messed with, or revert changes until a better solution is found. Make professions actually feel the same across game modes, not play differently. When they feel too different it stops being fun and more of a chore to mentally wrap one's head around what is possible in one game mode versus the others. Look into how much of a "resource" a skill is consuming as well, such as the Riposting Shadows and Phase Traversal changes for Revenant, initiative cost for various thief skills, etc. Please adjust cooldowns, damage/healing done, boon durations and stacks as you see fit, but try to preserver skill rotations across game modes.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ghos.1326 said:

    @Dadnir.5038 said:
    Is it possible for the balance team to consider adding Spirited Arrival (Nature magic) to the list of traits triggered when merging/unmerging? Spirited Arrival is similarly tied to swaping pet while in combat. It's strange that it isn't listed.

    Edit: Death Carapace (instead of Armored Shroud) giving vitality or DR instead of toughness would be great for the flexibility of the traitline in PvE. I'd even root for Deadly Strength to replace the vitality from Death Carapace by power instead of adding power to the buff.

    I think it will. As they've stated in their other post, merging/unmerging will be counting as pet swap when the patch hits, so having one pet won't change anything in terms of running runes/traits that require a pet swap.

    Well I've linked what they say on the other post and they clearly specify 2 of the 3 traits which is either the simple truth or misleading. There is no reason to specify 2/3rd of the traits if they can just sum it up to: "merging/unmerging will be counting as a pet swap". Afterall, they have to link through coding the different F4 traits to F5 I doubt there is somewhere a line of code saying: "Any trait that would be triggered by F4 will now be triggered by F5".

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    i dont like the armor to vita AT ALL.
    especially on traits that only give armor at certain conditions, like spiked armor.
    i gain reta, then i get more hp, and lets say im getting low hp now, ill go for a risky move based on my leftover HP, where i know, ok i have 5k hp, ill most likely survive, because he only does 4,5k in his last attack, and kill my foe, if reta then runs out or gets ripped im suddenly at like 4k hp (i didnt calculate how much i actually would have) in which case i suddenly wont survive that risky move anymore and drop dead to those 4,5k dmg from my enemy.

    i dont constantly want to keep an eye out for having reta on me or not.
    change those traits to anything else or just remove the added stat at all, but dont give me vita that i cant count on.

  • @RedShark.9548 said:
    i dont like the armor to vita AT ALL.
    especially on traits that only give armor at certain conditions, like spiked armor.
    i gain reta, then i get more hp, and lets say im getting low hp now, ill go for a risky move based on my leftover HP, where i know, ok i have 5k hp, ill most likely survive, because he only does 4,5k in his last attack, and kill my foe, if reta then runs out or gets ripped im suddenly at like 4k hp (i didnt calculate how much i actually would have) in which case i suddenly wont survive that risky move anymore and drop dead to those 4,5k dmg from my enemy.

    i dont constantly want to keep an eye out for having reta on me or not.
    change those traits to anything else or just remove the added stat at all, but dont give me vita that i cant count on.

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 This. Please consider that in some cases the toughness on these traits is appropriate for the class, and if you are trying to move away from in advertent agro from them then please make them flat damage reduction traits under certain conditions, or make the stat increase more manageable through an active playstyle.

  • UndefinedLime.2063UndefinedLime.2063 Member
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Irenio CalmonHuang.2048
    Can we get a clear and descriptive rationale as to the Dev-Team's thoughts by removal "Empty Vessel" and replacing it with "Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe"?

    Firstly, "Empty Vessel" is actually integral to the flow of nearly all competitive builds, ranging from power heralds, to condi builds, to even ventari healing builds alike.
    Secondly, Revs don't need anymore fury -- "Contained Temper (NEW): Gain fury when you disable a foe" is really redundant, and rather underwhelming.

    I understand that generally stun breaks -- as well as stability -- have been wrecking havoc across the game for quite some time now, but other classes simply have access to a lot more stability, as well as utility skills that offer break stuns as revs are locked back as what legend you select. I am proud that you guys are rewards mechanically skilled players by making break stuns a rare commodity.

    However as a rev main, anyone who has played Rev somewhat competitively in WvW -- especially for small man groups --- knows that the energy costs associated with breaking stun essentially renders you useless offensively, and in some cases after only using a few skills, it will stop you from doing anything altogether-- other classes don't have to trade any of their ability to counter-play by using one of their break stuns.

    My thoughts:
    Perhaps put an ICD on the "Empty Vessel" break stun of ~25-30 seconds instead of butchering the flow of how Rev operates by removing it altogether

    Lae.

  • MoXAriApph.3650MoXAriApph.3650 Member ✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @AlexndrTheGreat.8310 said:

    @MoXAriApph.3650 said:
    Is there anyone on the balance team who can explain why Soulbeast can't swap pets mid-fight in this next update? We're this late into the game and this is an inane change. If you're looking to add drawbacks, there already is one by swapping pets, there's a LARGE cooldown upon unmerging/swapping/merging back, and it doesn't make sense in a PvE perspective. There's nothing innately broken about Soulbeast in general when it comes to swapping pets, it's a direct nerf to Condi Soulbeasts already VERY lacking CC, and a very annoying change to anyone who plays the Power Variant.
    This change seems like an absolute joke.

    Auto-ignoring anyone responding with the same gibberish "nerf meta' attitude, genuinely looking for an answer from the devs on this one.

    Kinda late response but the I believe the reasoning for this is because the devs are trying to align the elite specs back into the vision they originally had when HoT was released, but missed the mark. The devs originally wanted elite specs to simply be an “alternative play style” compared to what the base class offered, but ended up simply being a massive gain over anything the base class offered. Either you took your elite spec or you were fundamentally weaker without it.

    More recently as seen with the other elite spec changes, such as Daredevil swipe range being reduced, Druid pet damage nerf, Scrapper health reduction, berserker allowing standard burst abilities, etc, Anet is wanting to continue this trend into other elite specs.

    Soulbeast was notorious for being a 100% improvement over base ranger. If there is a base ranger build, there’s no reason not to through in the soulbeast line. While yes, there’s long cooldowns for swapping pets and re-merging, that’s not necessarily a trade off because it’s simply how the class works. The only really trade offs possible would have been to either be permanently merged with pets at all times but can still swap, or only have one pet at a time. With this changes you now need to make a choice of whether losing one of your pets is worth taking the soulbeast line. More than likely it will be, players will just need to find ways to compensate it such as using something like warthog for condi which has a headbutt ability when merged.

    While I do agree that it is unfortunate such substantial nerfs and changes are coming to elite specs, I can agree with the devs that reducing the power creep brought with elite specs is a good direction.

    So instead of buffing the core classes up, we're going to actually remove some classes identity in the name of equality? This is horrible design. At this point why even give the option for Soulbeasts to have two pets? It's backwards design and actually ends up being worse in the long run.
    Druid, sure, give it a lore reason so nobody can complain and slap a 10% nerf onto the pet damage, but seriously removing an entire pet from Soulbeast...?
    Literally just kitten nerf anything else we have, as this one makes next to 0 sense.