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What if?

Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭
edited March 5, 2020 in Lore

What if elder dragons weren't evil? what if glint died to empower Kralkitorikk? what if Jormag is being truthful? what if we're actually the bad guys in the game? Type in your "What If" and then the outcome if it were actual.

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Comments

  • Fenella.2634Fenella.2634 Member ✭✭✭

    @Drizzt.1796 said:
    What if elder dragons weren't evil?

    In that case we wouldn't have a problem. Or rather, different problems, since the races would have had no reason to cooperate on this threat and the orders probably wouldn't exist.

    what if glint died to empower Kralkitorikk?

    I don't see anything major changing? We'd still have to fight and kill him. Kralkatorrik got more powerful throughout the story anyway, so what.

    what if Jormag is being truthful?

    In which regard and context?

    what if we're actually the bad guys in the game?

    We'll leave things worse off than we've found them? "Bad guy" really depends on the perspective, I guess. We certainly are the bad guy to our enemies already.

    Type in your "What If" and then the outcome if it were actual.

    Fanfiction?

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Are natural disasters evil?
    Don't forget that Elder dragons basically are nature (as weird as nature producing Undead sounds).
    Just because the current Tyrian races perceive them as a thread, doesn't mean they actually are one in the greater picture or cycle of life.

    In real life, people consider earthquake as threads to their existence, yet in the greater picture they are just part of the planet's tectonic movements.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

  • @Fueki.4753 said:
    Are natural disasters evil?
    Don't forget that Elder dragons basically are nature (as weird as nature producing Undead sounds).
    Just because the current Tyrian races perceive them as a thread, doesn't mean they actually are one in the greater picture or cycle of life.

    In real life, people consider earthquake as threads to their existence, yet in the greater picture they are just part of the planet's tectonic movements.

    Not really. The Elder Dragons are a lot more than "just natural disasters". The main leading difference is sapience and personality. The Elder Dragons have desires, wants, and the capability of comprehending morality.

    Their job is to balance magic, but they pretty much ignore that and go straight for causing world devastation. The only reason why they actually did balance magic from one extreme to the other, was because all six of them were trying to exploit the system for their personal benefit of whatever reason (like destroying all reality, ala Kralkatorrik).

    The whole "they're forces of nature" thing is a misnomer that derives from Tyrians not really comprehending the Elder Dragons and not having conversed with them, which changed when Mordremoth came into play - and changed even more with Aurene. Hence why some charr went from "we must overcome the Elder Dragons" to "we will tame an Elder Dragon" - because they realized that Elder Dragons are sapient, can indeed be killed, and capable of making decisions. And falsely believe they feel fear.

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  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

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  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Elder Dragons are essentially legendary beings which are almost part of the nature and environment.
    They eat magic from the world, leaving it barren, then slumber and let magic return to it.
    As such their hunger for magic is purely instinctive and they take any chance they can to consume magic, even if it will ruin the world.

    Is this evil? Not really.
    What may seem evil is their intelligence and sentience to plot and prey on lesser beings in their bid for more magic to consume.

    That's why Glint put her Scions plan into action : To create a bunch of Elder Dragons which aren't ruled by instinct, but by compassion and thought, replacing the Elder Dragons of old.

    If the older Elder Dragons had more control and compassion, they would only feast when Magic has become saturated, then cease when the world is at balance.

    Sadly, they are almost as old as the world itself, so puny mortals mean nothing to them, and are usually used as pawns to help them consume magic unrestricted.

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  • Comments Continued!!!

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  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 13, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Their job is to balance magic, but they pretty much ignore that and go straight for causing world devastation. The only reason why they actually did balance magic from one extreme to the other, was because all six of them were trying to exploit the system for their personal benefit of whatever reason (like destroying all reality, ala Kralkatorrik).

    If Kralk is our example of the ED norm then it seems that the ED are both bound by destiny to do what they do even if it personally pains them (killing Glint) and unable to stop themselves from consuming magic. Mordy and Zhaitan's magic were hurting him yet he couldn't help but eat it. The same goes for eating the Mists: It's pure magic. He can't not eat it because eating magic is what he does.

    Being bound by destiny might also explain why Jormag keeps flipping back and forth between trying to kill the Commander and wanting to work together.... Though I suppose you could look at Shadow in the Ice as Jormag trying to defend itself against the Slayer of Dragons since the Commander didn't slow down their ice brood killing since the Raven Shrine.

    Though this doesn't track with my theory that Jormag's domain is actually chaos and that 'let's be pals so I can kill you' thing is just part of that.

    But in the end they're effectively gods learning to deal with mortals that can now stand toe to toe with them. Regardless of motivation and method they don't seem to know how to handle their new reality.

    ...

  • @Fenella.2634 said:

    Fanfiction?

    Technically, yes i guess.

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  • @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @Fenella.2634 said:

    Fanfiction?

    Technically, yes i guess.

    Sure why not.

    Ever since obtaining the blue "krait orb"...
    What if the DSD secretly empowers the pact?

    Then
    Jormag is legitimately attempting to negotiate with the DSD.
    And
    Either
    It will emerge and use The Pact to betray Aurene.
    Or
    Aurene knows and will betray The Pact to defeat the DSD.

  • @thepenmonster.3621 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    Their job is to balance magic, but they pretty much ignore that and go straight for causing world devastation. The only reason why they actually did balance magic from one extreme to the other, was because all six of them were trying to exploit the system for their personal benefit of whatever reason (like destroying all reality, ala Kralkatorrik).

    If Kralk is our example of the ED norm then it seems that the ED are both bound by destiny to do what they do even if it personally pains them (killing Glint) and unable to stop themselves from consuming magic. Mordy and Zhaitan's magic were hurting him yet he couldn't help but eat it. The same goes for eating the Mists: It's pure magic. He can't not eat it because eating magic is what he does.

    Being bound by destiny might also explain why Jormag keeps flipping back and forth between trying to kill the Commander and wanting to work together.... Though I suppose you could look at Shadow in the Ice as Jormag trying to defend itself against the Slayer of Dragons since the Commander didn't slow down their ice brood killing since the Raven Shrine.

    Though this doesn't track with my theory that Jormag's domain is actually chaos and that 'let's be pals so I can kill you' thing is just part of that.

    But in the end they're effectively gods learning to deal with mortals that can now stand toe to toe with them. Regardless of motivation and method they don't seem to know how to handle their new reality.

    I see Kralkatorrik less of "doing what he does because he must even if it hurts him" and more of him being twisted and driven like an addict by the Torment:

    Kralkatorrik: Torment is blinding. It lies.
    Kralkatorrik: Its pollution steals my sense.
    Kralkatorrik: It promises: destroy everything and the pain will cease.

    It felt more like Kralkatorrik sought to destroy everything not because "he was predestined to" (this would go against all the lore we got about foreseeing the future and the like from pre-S4 stuff; to quote the Avatar of the Tree: "But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...") but because he was driven into madness by Torment caused from eating mixtures of magic over the eons, and as such only saw the desire to consume, corrupt, and destroy.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Only years : We only killed the first elder dragon in 1325 so theoretically it would only be about 8, maybe 9 years?

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  • -What IF Jormag was trying to befriend us, in his own twisted way, to prepare for Primordus.
    HOLY kitten that's gonna be a beast for anet to tackle, just overall (that said, I hope there's no more tiny-elder-dragon-mind-version like the jungle dragon)
    -Not sure if it could yield to eventually fighting Jormag any way.

    -I love the Queen as Lyssa proposal. Having played prophecies for so many years puts the soundstrack in a forever special place for me.

    Great thread, thanks for sharing everyone!

  • thepenmonster.3621thepenmonster.3621 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It felt more like Kralkatorrik sought to destroy everything not because "he was predestined to" (this would go against all the lore we got about foreseeing the future and the like from pre-S4 stuff; to quote the Avatar of the Tree: "But be warned—the future can change in the blink of an eye...") but because he was driven into madness by Torment caused from eating mixtures of magic over the eons, and as such only saw the desire to consume, corrupt, and destroy.

    Could easily be both since eating bad magic makes them nutty and that awareness of his future became a reckless obsession to prevent it. Thus causing it to happen in a classic Rod Serling manner?? He did suggest that killing Glint broke his heart.

    Anyway, the ED motivations haven't really been presented as much beyond "Eating magic and not dying" until Desecent so whatever explains Jormag's behavior will be new. I like the idea of her being scared shitless of the Commander and is trying to improvise a way to deal with them beyond the kill or corrupt they've been using for tens of thousands of years.

    ETA: The Pale Tree also has sort of pre-cognition powers but she's also a dragon minion. It could be that all the ED know they have a role to play in the Eternal Alchemy. Note that she also tells Caithe to not question the Dream.

    Only the devs know for sure.

    ...

  • @doogal.9368 said:
    Great thread, thanks for sharing everyone!

    Ty, but I've been in a lot bigger threads.

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  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen Jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    If that's true, we will be in a lot of trouble.

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  • Eh, this kinda comes across as the tagline of fan fiction rather than theory.

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  • @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    Eh, this kinda comes across as the tagline of fan fiction rather than theory.

    True

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  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭

    @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

    And you believed her? ;) This conspiracy theory looks sound :]

  • @Leo.3428 said:

    @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

    And you believed her? ;) This conspiracy theory looks sound :]

    Eh, the "Jennah is Lyssa" conspiracy theory has been around a a few years and is similarly more fan fiction fodder than lore theory.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Leo.3428 said:

    @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

    And you believed her? ;) This conspiracy theory looks sound :]

    Eh, the "Jennah is Lyssa" conspiracy theory has been around a a few years and is similarly more fan fiction fodder than lore theory.

    Ohh you dont want to see my fan fiction folder 😗

  • @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Leo.3428 said:

    @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

    And you believed her? ;) This conspiracy theory looks sound :]

    Eh, the "Jennah is Lyssa" conspiracy theory has been around a a few years and is similarly more fan fiction fodder than lore theory.

    Ohh you dont want to see my fan fiction folder 😗

    Trust me, I can well imagine, I've been on the internet longer than some of y'all have been alive. I've seen some kitten.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • DanAlcedo.3281DanAlcedo.3281 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Leo.3428 said:

    @Drizzt.1796 said:

    @DanAlcedo.3281 said:
    Queen jennah is lyssa and all of this is just an illusion to test/prepare us for the real deal.

    :no_mouth: Why would this be an illusion? In one of the personal stories she said that even she was afraid for her people.

    And you believed her? ;) This conspiracy theory looks sound :]

    Eh, the "Jennah is Lyssa" conspiracy theory has been around a a few years and is similarly more fan fiction fodder than lore theory.

    Ohh you dont want to see my fan fiction folder 😗

    Trust me, I can well imagine, I've been on the internet longer than some of y'all have been alive. I've seen some kitten.

    "I've seen some kitten." Ohh now we bring Charr into the mix. Kinky

  • Tsakhi.8124Tsakhi.8124 Member ✭✭✭

    What if Joko wanted to die? He even said something to the effect of "Live as long as I have, feelings lose their savor." then more BS, as Joko was wont to do. I mean, yes, he was evil (from a moralistic standpoint) but imagine being hundreds of years old, 200 which you were entombed alive, and having this permanent feeling of listlessness and making your boredom go away by causing others misery. Even then, I imagine it got tiring. I don't know, I feel empathy for him but absolutely no sympathy. It's like that a lot. nervous laugh

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  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 & @DanAlcedo.3281 - Real world conspiracy theories are often crass. However, fictional worlds, especially in games, are often shallow and open to interpretation. Amid all the magic and fantastic creatures, imagining the "gone" gods still around makes sense to me. Not wanting to derail the topic but is there no (believable) way the writers could come up with (or have already planned) such a twist?

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Leo.3428 said:
    @The Greyhawk.9107 & @DanAlcedo.3281 - Real world conspiracy theories are often crass. However, fictional worlds, especially in games, are often shallow and open to interpretation. Amid all the magic and fantastic creatures, imagining the "gone" gods still around makes sense to me. Not wanting to derail the topic but is there no (believable) way the writers could come up with (or have already planned) such a twist?

    I would argue that even a very good writer would be hard pressed to create a scenario where the Queen Jennah=Lyssa (or the Queen Jennah and Countess Anise=Lyssa variant) work, much less the writers at Anet. I genuinely don't think its a good idea and that there are (probably) better ways of making the Six relevant to the story. Going a more subtle direction would probably be best at this time, when taking into consideration the complaints of how "Human-centric" the story had been with LS3, PoF, and LS4. I don't really care that much about that myself, being an old gw1 veteran things being at least a little human-centric doesn't bother me, but I'm only me.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Not to mention that there really isn't anything special about Jennah overall beyond she's an above average mesmer. Thing is, despite views to the contrary, she's not that OP of an individual - including Kasmeer, there's four other mesmers on par or superior to Jennah and Anise (Koro Sagewind, Kitah, and Xera being the other three), and that's just of clearly established lore.

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    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 & @Konig Des Todes.2086 - Yes, there are more subtle ways and a god/dess would not necessarily be there all the time under the same appearance - although that can be a fun challenge. My remark was more about the gods in generals than the J&A=L theory in particular. I still have a lot to learn until I shape my own idea. Thanks!

    Here is a what-if that I found in a very old book preserved by the Durmand Priory: The whole world resides in magic devices that pit puppets against each other. One paragraph mentions that the devices were probably created by the asura, who have never migrated to the surface, instead they connect to the devices to train and prepare for exploration and conquest. There are two versions of the devices. The first version suffered from a serious bug by which all the training puppets looked like one of the dumb species on the surface. The second version fixed the problem and allowed to pick dumb species as an option, asura remaining the default and preferred option.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    I don't....I don't really understand....

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  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    I don't....I don't really understand....

    FANFICTION<><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>><><><><><><><><> That's all.

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  • Drizzt.1796Drizzt.1796 Member ✭✭

    Anyway... COMMENTS CONTINUED.

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  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    No, I mean I don't understand your latest what if. It just doesn't make sense to me.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    No, I mean I don't understand your latest what if. It just doesn't make sense to me.

    If you mean Leo's post, he was basically postulating that the games Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 exist in the universe of Tyria as simulations run by asura-like underground dwellers preparing to reach the surface.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • The Greyhawk.9107The Greyhawk.9107 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:
    No, I mean I don't understand your latest what if. It just doesn't make sense to me.

    If you mean Leo's post, he was basically postulating that the games Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2 exist in the universe of Tyria as simulations run by asura-like underground dwellers preparing to reach the surface.

    Guess that makes sense now. Kinda lost my enthusiasm for this convo atm, just got defamed as a bigot on one of the other threads here so now I'm angry and a little depressed.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Leo.3428Leo.3428 Member ✭✭

    @The Greyhawk.9107 - Sorry for the hasty hack, it would have been better with a lengthier immersion and a crescendo chain of clues. As Konig said, it's basically the "Do we live in a simulation?" hypothesis transposed onto Tyria with a jokey reference to our own world's games. I thought the Gollum clip was a funny way to tell how twisted the hypothesis is and gave you a thumbs up for it.
    I'm not sure what other thread you're alluding to but please don't worry too much, things tend to escalate (and sink) faster in forums.