[Feedback] New Drakkar Fight

[Urud.4925]

To me, it seems a bit more interesting than before, when the Drakkar's HP was too big. Yesterday almost everyone entered the first portal, and it took a bit to kill the champ. I entered the second one, with 10-15 ppl and we killed him much faster, so I'd say the scaling is good. Then ppl started to worry about the 8 min cooldown for the last portal, so we had to wait until it expired (it was only 4 min before, so no one cared, now it's something to think about it). The new nimble achiev is easier than the previous one.

I don't find any big issue with this fight. On the contrary I'm glad to see how ArenaNet changed some mechanic after some player's feedback. Good job!I would only remove the ascended weapon (probably the reward is too much for such a fight) and replace it with 1 Amalgamated Draconic Lodestone (like a normal meta in Tarir for example). I wouldn't keep fighting Drakkar after 10 times right now, but I would continue if I could farm lodestones. If 1 lodestone is too much, maybe add "scaps of lodestone"...

[The Last Hobbit.6492]

Honestly, after the last episode, I'd tempered my expectations.But this new World Boss is, honestly, one of the most exciting openworld fights in the game.It felt more like an easy WoW raid than anything else.It has everything that raid fights have except real challenge but it's openworld, so I think that's to be expected (people are bad at this game!).

I love the pacing of the fight, the phases, the way Drakkar tries to crush you like a bug, the three unique champions.There's a few things that could be improved like making it clear that you can't participate in all three champion fights and the finale feels a little underwhelming.

But all in all, very good job. Loved it.

Edit: If you can somehow create an instanced challenge mode of this boss for 10-20 players, that would be amazing.

Edit 2: Also, loved how there's less "fear" than the Claw of Jormag fight and instead uses the "wind" effect. Please update the Claw of Jormag fight... too much fear!

[Antycypator.9874]

I like that there are no annoying things like triple fear. That one when Drakkar comes from the wall is just perfect (character's reaction is natural when a big monster just comes out of wall). I love that shield-phase, because Drakkar acts like he's trying to open a jar full of cookies. It's design is just awesome.But I don't like the lack of different attacks and moves. Everything comes in specific order, the boss is unable to surprise us because we know what will come next.

[Connor Fallon.9408]

@Taylan.2187 said:I didn't know that failing causes players to become enemies to each other. That actually sounds really fun. :P

Of course, the question is how long it stays active and who it affects. If you're a player not participating in the meta, just minding your business in the Marches, and suddenly some trolls who failed the event appear and PK you, that's a major issue. People get very mean when they have the ability to PK, just look at the FFA arena in the mists and how toxic people get in there.

It would be ideal if it only affected people who are in the cave in the moment of failure. As in, only those people can attack each other. They can't attack those outside the cave. This way you have the fun moment of everyone in the cave potentially going berserk against each other but you don't risk trolls going out to PK uninvolved players.

What you describe is very close to how it works - it indeed hits only the people who are in and stay in the fight area, for a duration.

People also break out of the whispers when they are downed, which amusingly means you can revive them right after stabbing them. (Sorry! Jormag made me do it.)

[Randulf.7614]

@Connor Fallon.9408 said:

@Taylan.2187 said:I didn't know that failing causes players to become enemies to each other. That actually sounds really fun. :P

Of course, the question is how long it stays active and who it affects. If you're a player not participating in the meta, just minding your business in the Marches, and suddenly some trolls who failed the event appear and PK you, that's a major issue. People get very mean when they have the ability to PK, just look at the FFA arena in the mists and how toxic people get in there.

It would be ideal if it only affected people who are in the cave in the moment of failure. As in, only those people can attack each other. They can't attack those outside the cave. This way you have the fun moment of everyone in the cave potentially going berserk against each other but you don't risk trolls going out to PK uninvolved players.

What you describe is very close to how it works - it indeed hits only the people who are in and stay in the fight area, for a duration.

People also break out of the whispers when they are downed, which amusingly means you can revive them right after stabbing them. (Sorry! Jormag made me do it.)

I don’t have any issue with this mechanic as long as;

• it isn’t a precursor to more pvp in open world. Because it is currently lore-appropriate flavour, it doesn’t intrude so works as an exception
• players do not intentionally fail the event to experience it and ruin things for others. I would hope if you can find a way to make the fight more interesting, less messy and more rewarding that it won’t be an issue

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

ehm, so ANET. What are you going to do about AFKers and passive players scaling the event to 'impossible to do'?

They dont matter during other bosses, because damage. But with insane-hp-sponge-drakkar they REALLY HURT.

[Funky.4861]

I'm hating the pvp element for a fail; i haven't seen it succeed once yet and this is pure trollbait. I'll probably avoid the fight until the pvp element is removed, or until it succeeds much more reliably. The time investment is off-putting enough without the toxic pvp bit at the end.

[Jwake.7013]

@Funky.4861 said:I'm hating the pvp element for a fail; i haven't seen it succeed once yet and this is pure trollbait. I'll probably avoid the fight until the pvp element is removed, or until it succeeds much more reliably. The time investment is off-putting enough without the toxic pvp bit at the end.

Not sure how it's toxic or off putting honestly, you can only be downed and it lasts for what 15 seconds? Would actually love if they increased it to last longer, but then you may get people enjoying it too much and want it to fail if it's close.

I do agree that I think any late starting map is pretty much a fail now, where as before it had a chance if your map had good dps. Wthout the mastery CC which you pick up (fill) during escort from all mobs that even if you get a full map by the end phase, people then don't have the CC to break things fast enough to be able to get caught up, even with less hp. I mean maybe it'll just end up being a boss that people know not to do unless they get into a pre made map for it, just depends how easy anet actually wants this to be. Honestly fine either way, will just have to adjust accordingly to know when to hop into a map for it.

[Cameron Rich.3905]

@Jimbru.6014 said:Well, I put up a commander tag in LFG just about an hour ago, and we rocked the new Drakkar meta with whoever showed up. The new fight is certainly a bit busier and less tedious, and to me, it actually seems a bit easier than before, but YMMV. The hardest part to me was the champs being tougher, which can really eat up the timer with less powerful groups. That and the visual noise, which is a long standing issue throughout the game.

I'm happy to see more groups spinning up and able to coordinate their efforts to take down the boss. Since we released the changes 2 weeks after the fight went live initially, I'm not surprised to hear the feeling that it was easier - players have had some time to learn the mechanics and grow more comfortable with the fight. Nothing is ever as difficult as the first time through.

Looking at our internal data, the participation rate, success rate, and time to complete for this event are pretty much exactly where we expected and wanted them to be. We're keeping a close eye on how these numbers change throughout the coming weeks, and combined with direct feedback, that will help inform our next steps. We have tools in place to make tweaks to balance if we feel it's necessary.

Keep that feedback coming. Spicy, sweet or salty, as long as it's civil It's all extraordinarily helpful.

[Cameron Rich.3905]

I'm glad to hear y'all are enjoying the encounter. There are definitely lessons to be learned moving forward, we can always improve for the future - but it's great to know that you're having a lot of fun with the content and that it exceeded expectations. :)

[leila.7962]

I like the new fight, i just wish we could see the whole dragon instead of just half of it.. like if he could go out of the ice and slap everyones face with his tail kind of thing.

[Urud.4925]

@"Funky.4861" said:I'm hating the pvp element for a fail; i haven't seen it succeed once yet and this is pure trollbait. I'll probably avoid the fight until the pvp element is removed, or until it succeeds much more reliably. The time investment is off-putting enough without the toxic pvp bit at the end.Really? Come on, it's just few seconds, and no one will whisper you noob if they kill you (like in pvp), since the arena will be full of people. There's nothing personal or any fight that you can call fair there. I had a failed Drakkar today and it was funny. All of those reds all at the sudden and just after few seconds going to the dead ppl to ress them :)I find it a nice idea, or, like Joko would said, "a nice touch"! It's also in theme with Jormag. Gratz to whoever had the idea :)

[Belisaria.8136]

Since I've made a few posts talking about things I'm not so crazy about re: this fight, I wanted to pop in and say that I enjoy it too. I still hope a few things are done to it to really round it out, but within the world boss rotation, it's atmospherically perhaps the best and it brings some unique mechanics to the usual world boss run that will hopefully continue this new (and good) idea of finding a more natural and smooth learning curve for newer/more casual players seeking to up their challenge level.

[Randulf.7614]

@Cameron Rich.3905 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:Well, I put up a commander tag in LFG just about an hour ago, and we rocked the new Drakkar meta with whoever showed up. The new fight is certainly a bit busier and less tedious, and to me, it actually seems a bit easier than before, but YMMV. The hardest part to me was the champs being tougher, which can really eat up the timer with less powerful groups. That and the visual noise, which is a long standing issue throughout the game.

I'm happy to see more groups spinning up and able to coordinate their efforts to take down the boss. Since we released the changes 2 weeks after the fight went live initially, I'm not surprised to hear the feeling that it was easier - players have had some time to learn the mechanics and grow more comfortable with the fight. Nothing is ever as difficult as the first time through.

Looking at our internal data, the participation rate, success rate, and time to complete for this event are pretty much exactly where we expected and wanted them to be. We're keeping a close eye on how these numbers change throughout the coming weeks, and combined with direct feedback, that will help inform our next steps. We have tools in place to make tweaks to balance if we feel it's necessary.

Keep that feedback coming. Spicy, sweet or salty, as long as it's civil It's all extraordinarily helpful.

Forgetting my feelings on the quality of the fight and lack of mechanics, my continued worry is that the one thing that crops up every single episode, never gets a comment or drawn attention to. I mention it here because it is an issue in Drakkar. And it is a big one for boss design in general should you ever go back to using mechanics again where people need to see the tells.

Is there any work being done or any consideration being made to lower the extraordinary high level of visual noise which is plagueing this boss and the wider game? There's very much been an increased attention to making more of it despite wide ranging feedback to reduce it.

The last comment I saw was years ago and it was about promoting more fights to split the community up, but in practice that has declined

The problem is any mechanics you add, any tells, any attacks are utterly masked by the sheer intensity of the problem and melee is particularly punished

• Drakkar's attacks are mostly obscured by the shield, the massively over the top ravens protection (why is this so obstructive by the way?), the blizzard, the player particles and so forth. Luckily Drakkar hits a bit limply so it causes little distress, but it would be nice to be able to see more
• Thunderhead north is overwhelmed by the pink, the blizzard, the partciles and bright shining white lights from shields and other attacks
• Kamadan meta is (was anyway) almost impossible to see mobs due to the amount of players effects firing off
• Bjorna has that horrific ice border which doesn't add any ambient factor, but does an obtrusive gameplay problem. To mitigate it you need to add a different obstructive problem in the form of the Ravens Barrier which is highly opaque. Remember - gameplay should not be obstructed in order to force an ambience by illogical means. This is a recurring theme popping up at the moment I am noticing
• Serpents Ire. Even the enlarged final boss mobs (appreciated) are almost invisible under the various effects

These are some examples I've noticed and they also are some I;ve pulled from previous feedback threads (and before anyone jumps on me - I know some people don't find them an issue as well).

All I would like to know is, are you guys doing something to reduce it, because it genuinely feels like you are stacking the problem as the years go by

[Randulf.7614]

My feelings on the boss fight are known in the other main feedback thread, but since this is a positive specific thread, I will call out your animators for always rising above and beyond the occasion. Forgetting anything else, they continue to amaze with what they do with such an old game (which is one of many reasons it is a shame the visual noise escalation obscures a lot of their hard work)

I can only imagine what they could have done if we were able to have seen more of Drakkar's body, but top notch work on the animations nonetheless

[Michram.6853]

@Cameron Rich.3905 said:I'm glad to hear y'all are enjoying the encounter. There are definitely lessons to be learned moving forward, we can always improve for the future - but it's great to know that you're having a lot of fun with the content and that it exceeded expectations. :)

I actually love it too, I judged too quickly, because it's excellent world boss :)

[Nebilim.5127]

@Cameron Rich.3905 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:Well, I put up a commander tag in LFG just about an hour ago, and we rocked the new Drakkar meta with whoever showed up. The new fight is certainly a bit busier and less tedious, and to me, it actually seems a bit easier than before, but YMMV. The hardest part to me was the champs being tougher, which can really eat up the timer with less powerful groups. That and the visual noise, which is a long standing issue throughout the game.

I'm happy to see more groups spinning up and able to coordinate their efforts to take down the boss. Since we released the changes 2 weeks after the fight went live initially, I'm not surprised to hear the feeling that it was easier - players have had some time to learn the mechanics and grow more comfortable with the fight. Nothing is ever as difficult as the first time through.

Looking at our internal data, the participation rate, success rate, and time to complete for this event are pretty much exactly where we expected and wanted them to be. We're keeping a close eye on how these numbers change throughout the coming weeks, and combined with direct feedback, that will help inform our next steps. We have tools in place to make tweaks to balance if we feel it's necessary.

Keep that feedback coming. Spicy, sweet or salty, as long as it's civil It's all extraordinarily helpful.

I think the fight is good now but the raven gate part could be a lot better. They feel almost inconsequential if werent for the gate debuff. Maybe you could buff the bosses a bit like giving them a cc bar to break,or else they push you to fall off the arena? If you fail, that' okay, you can dodge or stunbreak the push, but if you fail all that, you fall and die. Maybe also have to kill all 3 bosses at same time instead of going one by one.

[Nidome.1365]

@"hugo.4705" said:

TLDR: Your fight is currently "jump jump jump", "be bored under javi shield because no gate buff", "gather your awful reward". It's not motivating at all.

I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

[Svarty.8019]

@Nidome.1365 said:

@hugo.4705 said:

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Isn't this what community is for? Edumacation and the ilk? If players don't know mechanics, it's up to ... er... us(?) to tell them? Fact is, lots of people aren't looking to socialise in this massively multiplayer game - and living story's single player narrative encourages that. 111111111111

[Eramonster.2718]

@"BlackBullWings.2734" said:...

• only needs 1 player (i think?) to stop an ice orb
• the shockwaves it causes only go so far, making the ones in the back completely ignorable.Yes and no. Players standing under the closer ice orbs will risk taking damage from the ones behind.Honestly, if this part required something like 5-10 players per orb, it would make the "tornado phase", ....Will indirectly set the requirement X amount of players 'compulsory' for the event to be completed....

I was wondering if anyone knows, do the adds damage the shield? do drakkar's emergence attacks damage it? would be far more interresting if they did. never seen the shield health drop below 75%.No idea what will happen for failing the breakbar phase(was closed to it; once). The shield doesn't seems to have HP mechanics after the breakbar phase and will last indefinitely until the champion is defeated. The adds/minions seems to have a spawn pattern(fallen, aberration, svanir) based on drakkars Hp% or champion phase(?) and seems to have a "time limit". If the champion is taking too long to kill; a set of 2-3 Svanir with swords above their head will appear and start AoE using "flamethrower" staffs killing every player under the shield. Can be interrupted and killed.

[anninke.7469]

@Urud.4925 said:

@"Funky.4861" said:I'm hating the pvp element for a fail; i haven't seen it succeed once yet and this is pure trollbait. I'll probably avoid the fight until the pvp element is removed, or until it succeeds much more reliably. The time investment is off-putting enough without the toxic pvp bit at the end.Really? Come on, it's just few seconds, and no one will whisper you noob if they kill you (like in pvp), since the arena will be full of people. There's nothing personal or any fight that you can call fair there. I had a failed Drakkar today and it was funny. All of those reds all at the sudden and just after few seconds going to the dead ppl to ress them :)I find it a nice idea, or, like Joko would said, "a nice touch"! It's also in theme with Jormag. Gratz to whoever had the idea :)

The problem is that the "few seconds PvP phase" easily overgrows into "full time of the meta PvP phase", although indirect, by creating two player groups with opposite goals. Maybe if the "smash others" was put elswhere and not as a result of a failed meta, it would be accepted much better...?

[hugo.4705]

@Nidome.1365 said:

@"hugo.4705" said:

TLDR: Your fight is currently "jump jump jump", "be bored under javi shield because no gate buff", "gather your awful reward". It's not motivating at all.

I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Perfectly agree, Anet should do a "How to CC/ what is a break bar" tutorial like the one the recently added on youtube about templates. It would be also a QoL change if CC skills are outlined in a specific color, as example CC Bar is green-blueish, just make the outline of the skills inflicting CC green-blueish too.

Edit:See, here I can easily identify CC skills. And I just added a border with the same color as Defiance Bar.

[mercury ranique.2170]

My two cents about the Drakkar fight:1: It is a nice encounter. I would not rate it as one of the best world bosses, but it is also not one of the most boring fights.2: The encounter is nicely done, altough the interaction with the boss is a bit strange as it is mostly in the ice. I know it is a visual effect as we fight most bosses from the front (specially dragons), but it could be done better.3: The looks. I dislike how he looks. His animations are good, but the model designjust doesnt fit the ambience for me. I would have prefered Something more closely to the GW1 model then the current one. To me it resembles a crocodile, which doesn't fit the artic theme I woud expect. The GW1 model is more influenced by whales, hamerhead sharks and a bit of Karka. I feel that is more fitting for a frozen lake monster.

[Bassdeff.1895]

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Cameron Rich.3905 said:

@Jimbru.6014 said:Well, I put up a commander tag in LFG just about an hour ago, and we rocked the new Drakkar meta with whoever showed up. The new fight is certainly a bit busier and less tedious, and to me, it actually seems a bit easier than before, but YMMV. The hardest part to me was the champs being tougher, which can really eat up the timer with less powerful groups. That and the visual noise, which is a long standing issue throughout the game.

I'm happy to see more groups spinning up and able to coordinate their efforts to take down the boss. Since we released the changes 2 weeks after the fight went live initially, I'm not surprised to hear the feeling that it was easier - players have had some time to learn the mechanics and grow more comfortable with the fight. Nothing is ever as difficult as the first time through.

Looking at our internal data, the participation rate, success rate, and time to complete for this event are pretty much exactly where we expected and wanted them to be. We're keeping a close eye on how these numbers change throughout the coming weeks, and combined with direct feedback, that will help inform our next steps. We have tools in place to make tweaks to balance if we feel it's necessary.

Keep that feedback coming. Spicy, sweet or salty, as long as it's civil It's all extraordinarily helpful.

Forgetting my feelings on the quality of the fight and lack of mechanics, my continued worry is that the one thing that crops up every single episode, never gets a comment or drawn attention to. I mention it here because it is an issue in Drakkar. And it is a big one for boss design in general should you ever go back to using mechanics again where people need to see the tells.

Is there any work being done or any consideration being made to lower the extraordinary high level of visual noise which is plagueing this boss and the wider game? There's very much been an increased attention to making more of it despite wide ranging feedback to reduce it.

The last comment I saw was years ago and it was about promoting more fights to split the community up, but in practice that has declined

The problem is any mechanics you add, any tells, any attacks are utterly masked by the sheer intensity of the problem and melee is particularly punished

• Drakkar's attacks are mostly obscured by the shield, the massively over the top ravens protection (why is this so obstructive by the way?), the blizzard, the player particles and so forth. Luckily Drakkar hits a bit limply so it causes little distress, but it would be nice to be able to see more
• Thunderhead north is overwhelmed by the pink, the blizzard, the partciles and bright shining white lights from shields and other attacks
• Kamadan meta is (was anyway) almost impossible to see mobs due to the amount of players effects firing off
• Bjorna has that horrific ice border which doesn't add any ambient factor, but does an obtrusive gameplay problem. To mitigate it you need to add a different obstructive problem in the form of the Ravens Barrier which is highly opaque. Remember - gameplay should not be obstructed in order to force an ambience by illogical means. This is a recurring theme popping up at the moment I am noticing
• Serpents Ire. Even the enlarged final boss mobs (appreciated) are almost invisible under the various effects

These are some examples I've noticed and they also are some I;ve pulled from previous feedback threads (and before anyone jumps on me - I know some people don't find them an issue as well).

All I would like to know is, are you guys doing something to reduce it, because it genuinely feels like you are stacking the problem as the years go by

I turned post processing off, removed all player and npc names, have the effects LOD box checked. Have no problems seeing any tells. The worst culprit is post proccesing.

[Gamora.1584]

I don't understand why the open world PvP in case the meta fails is such a dealbreaker for people. Can someone please explain? I honestly think that it's a brilliant idea, it fits the living world's story and theme.