Renegade trade off

[bravan.3876]

Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

[Sigmoid.7082]

Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

[bravan.3876]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

all kidding aside the trade off to renegade is that it suckswait that's actually kinda funnyi'm conflicted

[ArthurDent.9538]

My stance on the whole issue of Elite spec trade-offs is that they have always been there as you lose a core trait line to acquire it. From there it is just an issue of balancing the value of what an espec trait line gives compared to the other trait lines. Tthe need for these extra trade-offs is just Anet pandering to a certain sect of people too dense to realize the difference between an overpowered trait line and something that has no trade-off. With that being said renegade loses access to Ancient Echo, so there is your arbitrary trade off for renegade.

[Eugchriss.2046]

I think that renegade trade off is the as hearld's trade off. They both lose core F2. Now, is that enough? I honestly don t know.I don t know for tempest but for FB I was thinking about something between A: loose weapon swap since they have tomes's skills or B: keep weapon swap but instead of have the 3 tomes, they would have to pick only one of them.

[Sigmoid.7082]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Sigmoid.7082" said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

You're to lost in the effectiveness of what's there rather than what it is and this is why people don't seem to understand what Anet mean by elite spec tradeoffs. It's the class mechanic itself.

You lock yourself out of your attunements for 20s. Not being able to use the attunement for an incredibly long time relatively is what you lose for using the new functionality of the elite spec.FB is their virtues change. "But times are blah blah". Doesn't matter that's a different issue and not relative to what the trade offs are supposed to be by Anets own words.

Renegade and Herald had more class mechanics and nothing to lose , it was a pure gain. So they added something to core, ancient echo, so there was something that was lost at a class mechanical level.

[bravan.3876]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:all kidding aside the trade off to renegade is that it suckswait that's actually kinda funnyi'm conflicted

That it sucks even compared to core builds is no reason to skip the trade off treatment as we see on Powermesmers for example, where core PU oneshot is already better than a 2 dodges power Mirage or a no instant shatter Chrono without Distortion. As we see on Soulbeast trade off there is also no hesitation to delete complete parts of the elite mechanic/ skills and with that active gameplay options players are used to and fan of. And as Daredevil trade off (actually as all trade offs) prove there is also no hesitation to add restrictions completely contrary to the elite mechanic what will make elites clunky if not unplayable, destroys fluid gameplay and skill ceiling/ mechanical complexity. But sometimes it accidently can happen, that a clunky trade off immediately gets compensated by an unhealthy and broken unblockable feature on a no los requiring range instant skill. Double clap!

Meanwhile i completely miss some trade offs on some elites that clearly got additional skills or stronger mechanics on top of core, neither i can see an inherent trade off (FB) nor an artifical and clunky later added one (Tempest).

Either this whole trade off kitten is completely bad done and inconsistent or i miss something big here.

@"ArthurDent.9538" said:My stance on the whole issue of Elite spec trade-offs is that they have always been there as you lose a core trait line to acquire it. From there it is just an issue of balancing the value of what an espec trait line gives compared to the other trait lines. Tthe need for these extra trade-offs is just Anet pandering to a certain sect of people too dense to realize the difference between an overpowered trait line and something that has no trade-off. With that being said renegade loses access to Ancient Echo, so there is your arbitrary trade off for renegade.

Yes exactly. Most elites have inherent trade offs right since their release. And i mean aside from the one core traitline elites have to give up what clearly needs to be noticed as trade off (the lose of a 3. core traitline is something Anet always seems to forget). Some elites are still op but that can be adjusted by normal balance moves. A skill ensemble that has more skills/ cds than another one need to be adjusted in the power lvl and cds of each single skill so that the more in "buttons" are not stronger than the ensemble with less buttons. Like it is no problem to give FB 12 more skills on his f skillbar. But each single skill needs to be weaker in its reward (or higher single cds) than the core traits. But they gave FB skills like MoT which would even be op and power creeped on a core Guard who has per se less skills available.

Another trade off lot of elites also have is higher skill ceiling. A current Soulbeast for example is clearly harder to play than a core Ranger both in terms of skill ceiling and floor (pure mechanically, means aside from it being too strong in its skillrewards and cds it has access to, and other broken stuff like op gazelle and owl dmg, what isn't even a Soulbeast specific unbalance, all Ranger builds overperform in these aspects, Soulbeast has more mechanically complexity with pet swap and also more compared to core Ranger).

More of a balance problem is the strong synergy between the new elite mechanics and the power creeped core traitlines (in particular core defensive traitlines are power creeped as hell and op and often very passive and/ or low skill ceiling/floor wise designed). Instead trade offs for elites (which mostly already have inherent trade offs, often even more than one) i would vote for more opportunity cost in dmg on defensive core traitlines and a rework from them into less passive or/and more skillful.

[bravan.3876]

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

You're to lost in the effectiveness of what's there rather than what it is and this is why people don't seem to understand what Anet mean by elite spec tradeoffs. It's the class mechanic itself.

No that is exactly my point. You describe an inherent Tempest trade off. As i already explained in other threads also Soulbeats or Mirage as examples have already inherent trade offs but they still get other additonal trade off afterwards on top of that. Like Soulbeast lose access to pet f skills and all passive pets skills, which dissapear together with the pet while being merged.There is no good reason why some elites with already inherent trade offs get additional trade offs on top of that and other elites get away with the one inherent trade off they have since release. Not to mention that the now added trade offs clearly failing in creating logical and not mechanic contradicting downgrade and restrictions adding skill ceiling and not destroying it. The new added trade offs feel artificial and feel like they lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanics and the already implementend way better made inherent trade offs most elites already have since their release. Leads to unnecessary clunky and unfluid gamplay or even completely unplayable elites.

[Emberheart.8426]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

You're to lost in the effectiveness of what's there rather than what it is and this is why people don't seem to understand what Anet mean by elite spec tradeoffs. It's the class mechanic itself.

No that is exactly my point. You describe an inherent Tempest trade off. As i already explained in other threads also Soulbeats or Mirage as examples have already inherent trade offs but they still get other additonal trade off afterwards on top of that. Like Soulbeast lose access to pet f skills and all passive pets skills, which dissapear together with the pet while being merged.There is no good reason why some elites with already inherent trade offs get additional trade offs on top of that and other elites get away with the one inherent trade off they have since release. Not to mention that the now added trade offs clearly failing in creating logical and not mechanic contradicting downgrade and restrictions adding skill ceiling and not destroying it. The new added trade offs feel artificial and feel like they lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanics and the already implementend way better made inherent trade offs most elites already have since their release. Leads to unnecessary clunky and unfluid gamplay or even completely unplayable elites.

Soulbeast does not have an inherent trade-off. Merging with your pet does make you lose your pet, but that is not a trade-off because you can get your pet back whenever you want with only a paltry gcd. In addition, you get free pet revives when unmerging for no reason.

[bravan.3876]

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

You're to lost in the effectiveness of what's there rather than what it is and this is why people don't seem to understand what Anet mean by elite spec tradeoffs. It's the class mechanic itself.

No that is exactly my point. You describe an inherent Tempest trade off. As i already explained in other threads also Soulbeats or Mirage as examples have already inherent trade offs but they still get other additonal trade off afterwards on top of that. Like Soulbeast lose access to pet f skills and all passive pets skills, which dissapear together with the pet while being merged.There is no good reason why some elites with already inherent trade offs get additional trade offs on top of that and other elites get away with the one inherent trade off they have since release. Not to mention that the now added trade offs clearly failing in creating logical and not mechanic contradicting downgrade and restrictions adding skill ceiling and not destroying it. The new added trade offs feel artificial and feel like they lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanics and the already implementend way better made inherent trade offs most elites already have since their release. Leads to unnecessary clunky and unfluid gamplay or even completely unplayable elites.

Soulbeast does not have an inherent trade-off. Merging with your pet does make you lose your pet, but that is not a trade-offWrong, that is exactly a trade off.

because you can get your pet back whenever you want with only a paltry gcd.You lose your pet for the exact duration of being merged with that pet. Why should there be an even longer cd penalty on switching from merge to pet?

In addition, you get free pet revives when unmerging for no reason.

Yes that is something that should get deleted. But that is not a trade off change, that is a simple based on logic needed normal balance change/nerf of something that is unneeded to define Soulbeast as elite spec, what is too strong and doesn't add skill ceiling/ floor. It should even more be like a Soulbeast cannot merge with dead pets. That is a change that only deletes an overperforming senseless and broken part of Soulbeast should not exist at all. And that without killing gameplay flow and what adds skill ceiling because there is no good reason why Soulbeast is less punished by the misplay of letting the pet die.

Funny that the new trade off from Soulbeats doesn't solve that problem, Soulbeast will still be less punished by pet misplays. Once again Anet balance around the real issues and op and skillless aspects will survive, while the not problem solving changes will kill skill ceiling even more while keeping the lame parts alive.

[storm.3120]

If we look at chrono and look at renegade.You are losing nothing but gain 3 additional skills and lose 1.What happened to chrono for no reason - F4 removed and replaced with ex-F5, self shatter was removed (and basically made it unplayble). Same amount of shatters as before with additional "trade-off". They "buffed" shatters that does exact the same things as before just with new names on it. (I assume it was made to stomp chrono into the ground and fb/ren more desirable).So when we see renegade losing his 2 additional skills and burdened with extra negative effects? ;)

[bravan.3876]

@"Odik.4587" said:If we look at chrono and look at renegade.You are losing nothing but gain 3 additional skills and lose 1.What happened to chrono for no reason - F4 removed and replaced with ex-F5, self shatter was removed (and basically made it unplayble). Same amount of shatters as before with additional "trade-off". They "buffed" shatters that does exact the same things as before just with new names on it. (I assume it was made to stomp chrono into the ground and fb/ren more desirable).So when we see renegade losing his 2 additional skills and burdened with extra negative effects? ;)

Tbf all that Renegade gets are 3 f skills in addition to core. That is not such big of a deal considering what these 3 skills do. Lets say 3 and not 2 f skills in addition, because buffing core to have 1 instead zero f skills is nothing i would count in (just as i do not accept the f5 replacement with Holo and Scrapper mechanics as trade off). Buffing core to elite lvl and then calling the replacement of that buffed core aspect with elite skills trade off is hypocrite.

But Chrono got way more in addition than Renegade (in numbers only one f skill more, but what this f skill does is insane). Also Chrono indeed had no inherent trade off aside from losing a 3. core traitline and having higher mechanically skill ceiling than core. Means i would even agree to some trade offs to the Chrono mechanic. But Chrono is a mechanic you cannot rly touch in a meaningful way without destroying it. Like just higher cds of other skills to compensate for the mechanic of CS makes no sense when Chrono is about just resetting cds with CS . So how can we make the Chrono skill/cd ensemble less powerful without destroying the mechanic itself and without making Chrono clunky to play by even ignoring and destroying core shatter mechanics?

One thing is to higher the cd of CS (what they already did several times). In addition to that you need to compensate for the more in cds Chrono gets from CS cd reset and from alacrity. Higher cds on all skills (like making all shatters and weaponskills have higher basic cds as trade off) would just neutralize the Chrono mechanic, means that makes no sense.

In addition to a moderate CS cd you then can rework Chronos f1-f4 shatters in a way they did. Like lower their dmg and link parts of the dmg to additional requirements only Chrono can provide (applying slow). Ok good that happend. Ofc still not enough to compensate for such a strong mechanic like CS.

CS leads to Chrono having more offensive and (less effective because neutralized by CS itself) defensive cds (dependent on how fast and well the player can use skills in a rewarding way during the short time CS is running), so you could compensate this more in (active and skill ceiling producing) offensive and defensive abilities by giving stat penalty (like -100 to 200 power and -50 to 100 vita or toughness, just what they did for Scrapper and that instead deleting Ip and instead combining f4 and f5). This way you would directly compensate the higher value of the Chrono skill ensemble without destroying or neutralizing the Chrono mechanic and even destroying the core shatter mechanic which needs instant shatters to work. That way a bad and slow played Chrono would do remarkable less dmg than a core Mesmer and you add skillceiling and elite spec identity by different shatters Chrono has to do specific stuff for to buff the dmg lvl.

[alain.1659]

Renegade is a trade off.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:I dont understand your passion to write this walls like some rangermain. This god damn white themed forum makes my eyes burn alrdy.Tldr - chrono was destroyed to make rene/FB more desirable. It doesnt suffer in pve from the same problems as chrono in competitive modes.They even deleted LOST TIME, took adept trait that had alacrity and slow on interrupt and literally split in half and 3s alacrity moved to GM and left slow (1.5s lol) , I'm the only one who think thats just absurd?The king is dead, long live the king!

[otto.5684]

Wait renegade? Lol? Is this shit for real?

Also, this trade is and alway was bull shit. It is not a real thing. It is poor PR talk. You cannot have trade off unless core is competitive.

[Klypto.1703]

Renegade has been so much trash that they added the perma alacrity just to say it gets used in competitive for wvw purposes and then for pvp its just a really really REALLY crappy spec that pvp gods will get on to show you how it doesn't matter what spec or class they use they will always be at the top of the totem pole. Has been over two years now watching anet re-work things that were not even anywhere near as bad as this spec is in competitive which ultimately has been a slap in the face every time they re-work something because this has needed it since the day it came out. Heck so badly that they wouldn't even reveal the details on the traits until weeks after they did on every other class prior to the release of PoF.

The one thing I think they will be known for with this game and the developers is how you make a super great game but then sabotage it even better.

[Tharan.9085]

FB doesnt get Instant aegis when they come out of renewed Focus Kappa

[Dadnir.5038]

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Ganathar.4956" said:Soulbeast does not have an inherent trade-off. Merging with your pet does make you lose your pet, but that is not a trade-offWrong, that is exactly a trade off.

You're mistaken, the trade off for losing your pet while merging is that your character got access to 3 skills and bonus stats. The reason why ANet reduce the number of pet you have access to while in combat is that there is no trade off for the fact that you have an extra mechanism that allow you to merge with your pet.

If core ranger's mechanic is 8 units of skills (1 unit per pet skill granted that the pet have 4 skills), the soulbeast's mechanic should also be 8 units (4 unit of skills for the pet while unmerged and 4 units of skills while merged). That's the principle of "balance".

It's true that can perceive that the renegade "sacrifice" only one unit of skill for 3 units of skills but it's also true that the renegade use ressources for that. ANet's devs just estimate that the extra cost in ressource is worth 2 extra units of skills. And technically, each of the renegade's mechanic skills cost from 35 to 60 point more energy than the core mechanism which you can average at roughly half an energy bar worth of energy.

The same goes for the mirage trade off. The mirage simply had 2 extra unit of skills (attack when dodging) on top of the original amount of skill unit (shatter skills). ANet's devs chose to reduce these extra unit of skills by halving the access to basic dodge. And before you attack with the dodge duration being lower, it does have the trade off to let you attack while you dodge. Note that technically, Mirage, after the patch, will still retain an extra unit of skill over the core profession, which show how much ANet value a dodge. They could have decided to simply remove dodge and have the mirage dodge through it's utility skills to trigger the "on dodge" mechanic effect.

[Leonidrex.5649]

To every pepega out there debating if X or Y is a trade off. If you gain something and you lose something its a tradeoff.What you gain MUST be better then what you lose or espec is useless and you should be refunded the money.Espec should be compared to core, if core trait + trade off is not about the same as espec then espec needs nerfing.( looks at fb ).There were already people prefering core ranger over soulbeast, I dont play the class but if core is already on par with soulbeast, then nerfing soulbeast just puts it in the dirt. Insta merge revive is stupid tho, making pet impossible to kill.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@otto.5684 said:Wait renegade? Lol? Is this kitten for real?

Also, this trade is and alway was bull kitten. It is not a real thing. It is poor PR talk. You cannot have trade off unless core is competitive.

Funnily enough they're kind of doing it that way, I mean, nerf chrono and mirage so hard that core becomes competitive.

On Op, he is absolutely right in his thinking, some professions don't have a trade-off, others have a trade-off so light that it is still a done deal choosing the elite spec meanwhile others got obliterated that now core is the only choice.On one hand someone here commented how change virtues is a trade-off, so why chrono got changed (worse) shatters, distortion deleted and IP deleted, weren't the shatters change trade-off enough?

Like someone said on mes subforums give shatters half the range instead of this kitten nonsense of one dodge, no IP, no distortion, worse shatters for all we care.

[Math.5123]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

Fb trade off is double cooldown on virtues and an added cast time on them

[bravan.3876]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@"Ganathar.4956" said:Soulbeast does not have an inherent trade-off. Merging with your pet does make you lose your pet, but that is not a trade-offWrong, that is exactly a trade off.

You're mistaken, the trade off for losing your pet while merging is that your character got access to 3 skills and bonus stats. The reason why ANet reduce the number of pet you have access to while in combat is that there is no trade off for the fact that you have an extra mechanism that allow you to merge with your pet.

If core ranger's mechanic is 8 units of skills (1 unit per pet skill granted that the pet have 4 skills), the soulbeast's mechanic should also be 8 units (4 unit of skills for the pet while unmerged and 4 units of skills while merged). That's the principle of "balance".

It's true that can perceive that the renegade "sacrifice" only one unit of skill for 3 units of skills but it's also true that the renegade use ressources for that. ANet's devs just estimate that the extra cost in ressource is worth 2 extra units of skills. And technically, each of the renegade's mechanic skills cost from 35 to 60 point more energy than the core mechanism which you can average at roughly half an energy bar worth of energy.

The same goes for the mirage trade off. The mirage simply had 2 extra unit of skills (attack when dodging) on top of the original amount of skill unit (shatter skills). ANet's devs chose to reduce these extra unit of skills by halving the access to basic dodge. And before you attack with the dodge duration being lower, it does have the trade off to let you attack while you dodge. Note that technically, Mirage, after the patch, will still retain an extra unit of skill over the core profession, which show how much ANet value a dodge. They could have decided to simply remove dodge and have the mirage dodge through it's utility skills to trigger the "on dodge" mechanic effect.

No that is exactly my point. Soulbeast has an inherent trade off by having to decide between merging and pet skills. It didn't get a second class mechanic on top of the normal one. It only gets the ability to switch between 2 different ones, wheile the switch always lock Soulbeast out form the other one. It is even written on the Soulbeast description that the penalty for merging is to lose the pet during merge. That Soulbeast has overall more cds it can choose from and chain, means has a skill kit/ skill ensemble with overall more skills/button to use is than something you have to adjust by normal nerfs, means nerfing the overall power lvl of the skill kit of Soulbeast. So you can balance out the power of the Soulbeast skill kit without deleting active gameplay option, without just straight up deleting parts of the Soulbeast mechanic which are meant to be there. You can nerf dmg from merge skills and pet skills on Soulbeast, you can higher the cds of single skills, you can make the overall reward Soulbeast gets from Pet skills+merge skill overall the same lvl as core Ranger gets reward from pet only. Simple stat penalty on pets just like Druid got is a way better way of nerfing Soulbeasts power lvl. Combine that with nerfing merge skill power by higher cds and lower skill rewards (less dmg, deleting double and triple rewards) and Soulbeast will be fine compared to core. Because then Soulbeast needs to use more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than core Ranger what jutsifies to have more buttons in the first place.

As said compared to what they do with Mirage Soulbeast still can be happy. The pet swap remove is not totally unlogical and totally contrary to the Soubeast mechanic. It is just an unecessary deletion of active gameplay options you could avoid and just balance out Soulbeats in better ways.

During Mirage gets completely overnerfed by the one dodge rule of the resource it even needs to work in a more active and skilled way. There is a reason another elite (Daredevil) which is also build around pretty strong dodges got MORE dodges compared to other classes and not less. Mirage in current state already has less access to dodges than most classes, what compensates already for having stronger dodges. Why they do not change Daredevil also to only one dodge? Because it would contradict the whole elite design. You cannot build a spec around dodges and then overnerf and with that overlimit the resource the elite needs to work. Mirage already had the trade off from higher opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management, that Mirage needs to use dodges for more than just evading attacks, while not rly having more access to the dodge resource than other classes. Mirage also got the weakest dodge trait in the game as basic mechanic of the spec , a dodge trait that needs a second trait to use or additional build-up work from the player to work like other dodge traits in the game. Mirage has the only dodge in the game can be affected by cripple and chill in its mobility distance.

Sure Mirage was still overperforming. But not in general, it only was overperfroming on specific builds because the condi ambushes are bad designed (they are too passive designed and too strong in the dmg they provide). You could solve all these problems by simply locking out Mirage from having clone normal autoattacks with passive condi dmg. So Mirage doesn't have double passive condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks (core mechanic) and from op condi clone ambushes making offensive dodges unnecessary and condi ambushes for that completely passive. You could just rework or nerf condi ambushes in addition to the lock out of normal condi autotattcks so that they are more like power ambushes (more about having effects the player needs to use well timed and by dodging offensive at needed times and for that less about big dmg).

If you want to add a 4. trade off to Mirage so badly because you say the dodge it got is so insanely powerful that it needs more than just normal nerfs and adjustments of the power lvl on top of the inherent trade offs Mirage already has, than you got ideas like a lower clone cap of 2 or locking out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos and Inspiration (to avoid the broken synergy Mirage has with those traitlines). Whatever there are more than enough ways to balance Mirage to a not overperforming lvl which doesn't contradict the whole basic elite mechanic, which doesn't overnerf the resource it is based on, which doesn't push Mirgae into even more passive and noobfriendly playstyle (by making offensive and tactical dodges impossible), which doesn't kill skill ceiling, which doesn't kill not overperforming, more active and highly skilled power builds as a spin-off.

[bravan.3876]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Sigmoid.7082 said:Thoughts? This is salty knee jerk based on the unrealistic demands in post.

Why unrealistic? We saw comparable nonsense trade off elite destructions on other specs.

Btw also still don't know what the trade off for Tempest overload mechanic is, that comes on top of core. And the FB trade off i miss too. Pls enlighten me.

Fb trade off is double cooldown on virtues and an added cast time on them

Ok i would not rly have called that a trade off because that is just inherent logic of turning one button skill into a whole kit of skills (which then ofc should not all be instant and ofc should also have individual cds otherwise it would be even more powerful compared to core than it already is). But on the other side you are also right, adding these tome skills removes the core skill, all the power they had and the advantage that they were instant is gone.Still you have to agree, that the overall power lvl of tomes compared to core virtues is still insanely higher. With that logic other elites like Soulbeats and Mirage get ADDITIONAL trade off over the inherent ones (and inherent trade off from FB is kinda weak you have to admit). Don't get me wrong, i don't want FB to lose a tome or even lose 2 tomes or lose weapon swap as SECOND trade off. I think it is enough to balance out the overall higher power lvl of these more in buttons/skills included in the tomes by nerfing the skills individually in their individual cds and in their individual rewards, means just normal nerfs (higher cds, dmg reduction, deleting power creeped double and triple rewards from overloaded skills like MoT or tome skills) and not add a SECOND trade off treatment that will straight up delete parts of the FB mechanic. So that FB just as Soulbeast is forced to use more button for the same power lvl that core has with less buttons available.

@alain.1659 said:Renegade is a trade off.xD

[Shao.7236]

It went above everyone's head that core and herald have their distinctive benefits per legend, so technically Kalla has only one extra button in it's build but you still have more variety with the latter, Herald having in fact way more considering facets are two skills in one, F2 being 10 based on the legends, but ending at 4 at once along the 10 utilities.

Also Renegade is a pretty solid objective focused spec, if you play it in anyway differently and don't ditch Kalla skills, you're doing it wrong.

It's already a clear fact that Revenant is the most misunderstood profession in the game and people have found their most common ground in Herald/Shiro because it's the least Revenant as it gets to play.

@Leonidrex.5649 Non sense, elites are a different approach to the profession that can take more competence or less depending on what you throw at it, not a better option unless you're that kind of lazy to begin with and being challenged isn't fun to you.

@Klypto.1703 That's terrible reasoning considering how Renegade is meta in PvE while in PvP people are clueless about most of Revenant functions and synergy to begin with. It says much when button mashing with little attention span is what defines the meta of a game.