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Nerf Thief


mortrialus.3062

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@"Antipode.7830" said:How does a thief stay there and participate

A good chunk of people, whether or not they are brave enough to outright say it, would just rather thieves not participate. There's a sizeable number of individuals out there that think because thieves have access to shortbow 5, they should be relegated to decap duty. If they can perform any role that is in excess of that, they are broken.Like I said before, expecting thief to ever be viewed as fair is a pipe dream, because by definition the class is an exploiter of weaknesses.

Soo, whatever. After the patch we will be back here about Steal or something.

You can't nerf players that are good at what they do, though, and Anet isn't going to remove the class or make its weapons do 1 damage. Let people push to shave what they want. All this will do is make the thieves willing to put up with the "nerf x" of the month stronger and more adept at their roles.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Antipode.7830" said:How does a thief stay there and participate

A good chunk of people, whether or not they are brave enough to outright say it, would just rather thieves
not participate.
There's a sizeable number of individuals out there that think because thieves have access to shortbow 5, they should be relegated to decap duty. If they can perform any role that is in excess of that, they are broken.Like I said before, expecting thief to ever be viewed as fair is a pipe dream, because by definition the class is an exploiter of weaknesses.

Soo, whatever. After the patch we will be back here about Steal or something.

You can't nerf players that are good at what they do, though,
and Anet isn't going to remove the class or make its weapons do 1 damage. Let people push to shave what they want. All this will do is make the thieves willing to put up with the "nerf x" of the month stronger and more adept at their roles.

but thats the trust right there, why take any other roamer if thief is twice as fast?how much stronger does other roamer have to be to even out the fight if thief gets there 5s faster.The only good thing about D/P thief is that they have to devote time and ini to stealthing and they dont run around with perma swiftness, so they are not turbohyper fast as fuck monkeys as all other thief builds, thats a good thing. If devs manage to fix some issues ( like no perma stealth ) this build will be fine and dandy.Im fine with thief being as strong as other classes during 1v1 or 2v2 or blob fights, but if they are faster then anyone else, they will produce more value then anyone else.This is in every game ever made.speed is one of the most important things, be it rts, shooters, mmos, mobas. everywhere speed > almost anything else.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:Im fine with thief being as strong as other classes during 1v1 or 2v2 or blob fights, but if they are faster then anyone else, they will produce more value then anyone else.

Except the community is clearly not fine on having a stealth-based class being good at 1v1.I mean.... this thread.

Thief is already the most complained class of the game when they have close to nil duelist capability and overall damage.Plus... think about Mirages. What happened the last time we had a fast class that was also good at 1x1? Hint: Mirages had portal nerfed first.

By design, we can't have a class that can roam and 1x1 at the same time. The problem that meanwhile classes like Mirage and Herald had their movement nerfed first to keep their damage, the thief always has their damage nerfed and keep their movement. This is a design decision at this point.

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@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:Im fine with thief being as strong as other classes during 1v1 or 2v2 or blob fights, but if they are faster then anyone else, they will produce more value then anyone else.

Except the community is clearly not fine on having a stealth-based class being good at 1v1.I mean.... this thread.

Thief is already the most complained class of the game when they have close to nil duelist capability and overall damage.Plus... think about Mirages. What happened the last time we had a fast class that was also good at 1x1? Hint: Mirages had portal nerfed first.

By design, we can't have a class that can roam and 1x1 at the same time. The problem that meanwhile classes like Mirage and Herald had their movement nerfed first to keep their damage, the thief always has their damage nerfed and keep their movement. This is a design decision at this point.

I know, and so the problem remains, and it will always remain.as long as thief can contribute and damage that can threat people and as long as thief can influence 1v1 in a reasonable time thief will always be overpowered and the best in its role, becouse it doesnt matter that someone deals even quadruple your damage, becouse if you come faster you can win the fight before omegadamage character arrives.Logically if devs want thief to be strong in 1v1 and have good damage there is plent of ways of doing it, but the mobility has to be adressed.This is part of the reason why swipe is 600 range, its clear to me that DD was supposed to be THE bruiser thief build, THE 1v1 build, and thats why they get escapist fort, and thats why the staff skill gives endurance ( so you can dodge more during a skirmish ) and thats also why swipe has lower range.1 SB is part of the issue, there needs to be a way to move the thiefs that want to 1v1 to 2x offensive set, like staff + sword/dagger for example.the only trait that encourages is the extra ini on weapon swap trait. ( d/d + d/d ) thief is a good example, its no longer omegamobile and trades it for shitton of dodges.

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:Im fine with thief being as strong as other classes during 1v1 or 2v2 or blob fights, but if they are faster then anyone else, they will produce more value then anyone else.

Except the community is clearly not fine on having a stealth-based class being good at 1v1.I mean.... this thread.

Thief is already the most complained class of the game when they have close to nil duelist capability and overall damage.Plus... think about Mirages. What happened the last time we had a fast class that was also good at 1x1? Hint: Mirages had portal nerfed first.

By design, we can't have a class that can roam and 1x1 at the same time. The problem that meanwhile classes like Mirage and Herald had their movement nerfed first to keep their damage, the thief always has their damage nerfed and keep their movement. This is a design decision at this point.

I know, and so the problem remains, and it will always remain.as long as thief can contribute and damage that can threat people and as long as thief can influence 1v1 in a reasonable time thief will always be overpowered and the best in its role, becouse it doesnt matter that someone deals even quadruple your damage, becouse if you come faster you can win the fight before omegadamage character arrives.Logically if devs want thief to be strong in 1v1 and have good damage there is plent of ways of doing it, but the mobility has to be adressed.This is part of the reason why swipe is 600 range, its clear to me that DD was supposed to be THE bruiser thief build, THE 1v1 build, and thats why they get escapist fort, and thats why the staff skill gives endurance ( so you can dodge more during a skirmish ) and thats also why swipe has lower range.1 SB is part of the issue, there needs to be a way to move the thiefs that want to 1v1 to 2x offensive set, like staff + sword/dagger for example.the only trait that encourages is the extra ini on weapon swap trait. ( d/d + d/d ) thief is a good example, its no longer omegamobile and trades it for kitten of dodges.

I think the last point is really interesting. Initiative and dual skills kind of prevent thief needing to weapon swap for more skills the way other professions do. They don't really get the same benefit, and each weapon set is designed to be more or less self-contained and with a distinct style.

I kind of think thief would have been a decent candidate for a single weapon set profession like ele or engi with the right balancing. Mobility on shortbow really does define what thief can do in a lot of ways. Is that a problem with the weapon? Something the class itself should have addressed? Or is it fine like this? It sounds like you see it as a big reason thief is difficult to balance right now.

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@SoulSin.5682 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:Im fine with thief being as strong as other classes during 1v1 or 2v2 or blob fights, but if they are faster then anyone else, they will produce more value then anyone else.

Except the community is clearly not fine on having a stealth-based class being good at 1v1.I mean.... this thread.

Thief is already the most complained class of the game when they have close to nil duelist capability and overall damage.Plus... think about Mirages. What happened the last time we had a fast class that was also good at 1x1? Hint: Mirages had portal nerfed first.

By design, we can't have a class that can roam and 1x1 at the same time. The problem that meanwhile classes like Mirage and Herald had their movement nerfed first to keep their damage, the thief always has their damage nerfed and keep their movement. This is a design decision at this point.

Herald had their movement nerfed? I can't see it behind all these revs that are sticking to me like a pre-school chewing gum under a table.

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  • 5 months later...

Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.

Oh yes, lets nerf something in PvP because it's broken in WvW. Also there are so many things which are broken in WvW in their specific nieche (seriously who cares about 1v1-ing in WvW, no tier 3 castle will flip from that), if we were to issue nerfs and changes in all gamemodes to bring them in line just for WvW, that would break everything.If thief can't have the best 1v1 build(I dont even know it it's actually true, just took your word for it), why should scourge and FB have the best zerg builds, ranger shouldn't be as punishing as it is when pew-pewing from atop of castle walls etc... you could find a reason to ruin/destroy basicly everything.

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@Shiyo.3578 said:Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.

I rarely post videos of fights against thief because it looks as bad as it feels. Basically, if a thief dies you got lucky. How else can you look at a class that can disengage at will and only gives a fraction of a second to fight back at any point in the fight?

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Holy thread necro Batman.

@Shiyo.3578 said:Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.

Lol wat.

The only reason the kit is even played primary is Acrobatics which got some harsh nerfs a while ago. Almost everyone roams on D/P still since, and so do most high-level sPvP players because the initiative costs on S/D are too high since Shortbow is still the supreme mobility weapon and D/P is better than S/D due to the relative strength of SA.

Odds are if you're getting dunked by a S/D player it's probably a daredevil tank build just trolling sigils of air/fire because the sigils do nearly the same burst as more conventional offensive builds given the meta is all about hard sustain and condi in anything smaller than 10 people...

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@Shiyo.3578 said:Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.S/D can't kill anything that does not want to be killed. I can troll (kite and spam laugh emotes each time it casts infiltrator's return) that build forever.

Only if you start to chase it, then you get a problem. But why would you do this? It's a thief. You never chase thieves! Baiting that is part of their mechanic.

Btw.: nice thread necro'ing!

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:Infiltrators strike REALLY needs to be nerfed. It makes s/d thief the best 1v1er in WvW and no build can do ANYTHING vs it. You feel completely helpless - it's why nearly every roamer is a thief and people who make roaming videos never have clips vs thieves.S/D can't kill anything that does not want to be killed. I can troll (kite and spam laugh emotes each time it casts infiltrator's return) that build forever.

Only if you start to chase it, then you get a problem. But why would you do this? It's a thief. You never chase thieves! Baiting that is part of their mechanic.

Btw.: nice thread necro'ing!

Sword builds can kill people if you severely outplay them, but one unlucky hit from a spamlord holo, necro or even warrior and you're in trouble. If not for the mobility there'd be 0 reasons to pick thief. Zero.

Basilisk Venom? Omegalul, how 'bout an aoe shock aura.

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@mortrialus.3062 said:

Shadow arts is getting some more needed nerfs. Overall I'm pretty happy about this. I'd still like to see a bit of a trim to Infiltrator's Strike and the cleanse on Escapist Fortitude and I'd be pretty happy.

Expected.

You also can't have the Fortitude nerf now.

I love this response XD

I think the unintended consequences of pushing for SI and EF to be less powerful is that you will see
more Deadeyes
and
more Shadow Arts

The best Deadeye builds have always used Be Quick or Be Killed+Sword, because the zoning capacity of Sword 2 is literally unmatched.

To break it down Sword 2 is: 900 units towards the target+ immobilize for three initiative. And it's 1200 units back to the initial cast+ 1 condition cleansed for 2 initiative. Some people earlier in the thread were talking about how all movement isn't created equal and that is true, but in combat Sword 2 only ever moves you where you want it too. You only ever move 900 units into you opponent where you want to be as a melee build or you move up to 1200 units away so that you can completely avoid incoming damage while they try to retaliate. Combined that's spamming 2100 units of movement speed in combat every 5 seconds based on endurance regeneration.

My change gives thieves a bit more flexibility when they engage in combat by lowering the engage cost of the skill, but if they want to retreat requires a bit more attention paid to their initiative to do so, and when they do so the reweighting of the skill would mean their capacity to IMMEDIATELY reengage and begin the hit and run process anew is limited at least a little. It's the kind of change that's going to slide off even platinum PvPer's backs, let alone top PvPers like Sindrener. But it'll still help all the builds who have to stare out ontop a jumping puzzle as they watch said thief literally corner them like a shark blinking back and forth into attack range and outside of your attack range freely. Not even a lot. Not build breakingly so. Just a little.

U know sword is only nice cuz skill 3 cuz unblocable damage and boon steal , porting out of a fight is literally useless , thief cant 1v1 an equal skill sidenoder while being bad at team fights , whats broken on being able to disengage when u cant win any equal fight? Thief role is to outnumber and roam with fast movility over the map , where the only skills useful are 3 or 2engage park , the disengage part of sword 2 is not a problem

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