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Balance Update Update - PvP


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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

Weavers can still single attune.

By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

Weavers can still single attune.

By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

"I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 petsSoulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic on a spec that's not even competitive in the current meta :joy:

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@"KryTiKaL.3125" said:As for Tempest and Ele becoming "absolutely useless" in sPvP I honestly think that has less to do with how they worked and more to do with how overtuned Weaver has becomeThats a wrong assumption. Tempest wouldnt be represented in current PvP even without weaver.

The least access to stability of all classesLow mobility. Compared to ranger, warrior, thief, mesmer, engi its a lame duckEvades ? Not worth to mentionLess healing than warrior (compared with equal amulets), except using a build with all heal skills/traits, but then it doesnt do anymore damageBlocks ? Just obsidian flesh (3sec with 50/40sec CD)Light armor classSustain mechanics/abilities ? zeroHard to play (it needs a very good feeling for timing and it has to be played in an extremely foreseeing way, to be in the right attunements when fighting)Elite skill "rebound" is close to useless

To say it simple : theres too much damage/CCs around for tempest and core ele. By nerfing obsidian flesh tempest gets sacrificed now just because devs found no other way to nerf weaver ???

I once was legendary with my cheesy damage tempest, now I am just average and soon I will be nothing anymore :p HELP ! ! !

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@bravan.3876 said:

It is simple: If you want ppl to play less facetanky and less lame builds on a specific class, then you better do not kill these less lame and more skilled builds as a spin-off while nerfing op and braindead facetanky builds on that class (at least as long as you have other possible ways to nerf op builds without touching not op builds and in most cases you have other ways).

BROUGHT TO THE POINT ! ! !

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

Weavers can still single attune.

By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

"I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 petsSoulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

"Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

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@"shadowpass.4236" said:And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

Weavers can still single attune.

By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

"I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 petsSoulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

"Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

Firebrands don't lose anything. Tomes still count as virtues in the game but they are several orders of magnitude stronger than what core guardian has.Weavers don't lose anything to gain access to their Dual Skills and mixed attunements.

Soulbeasts are LOSING half our class mechanic to gain access to 3 skills and judging by the patch notes and the updated one, Anet completely overlooked the fact that the pet swap trait cooldowns don't match the merge timer.

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@Odik.4587 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

Yes exactly. Currently, Soulbeasts LOSE our pet to gain access to merge skills. It's already a tradeoff. It wouldn't be a tradeoff if we were able to use our pets and merge skills at the same time.

Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Firebrands lose what? Nothing. And they GAIN anywhere from 15-24 new skills that not only replace the exact functionality of the core Virtues, but are way stronger.

Weavers lose what? Nothing. They GAIN dual skills and the ability to mix attunements.

Mirages losing a dodge is stupid. They should have weaker shatter skills just like a Spellbreaker has weaker burst skills. Cap illusions at 2. Distortion on mesmer should prevent skill usage like ALL other invuln skills. Finally, remove their ability to dodge while hard cc'd and immobilized.

Spellbreaker's Arcing Slice's damage should scale with adrenaline. Currently, only the fury duration does which is why the GS F1 hits just as hard in SPB as it does in Core Warrior.

Rangers are also getting MASSIVE cooldown nerfs on greatsword, a weapon that already loses while trading trading damage against every single meta spec atm and we don't even have the staying power to back it up.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.But gain all traits for the pets and stats boost (pet related skills start to affect you instead) and that also bring dead pets to life without penalty for swapping dead pet. Still retain all functionality of a core ranger. Like chrono with F5 before.You kinda have a point about holo/fb etc. What they gain is infinitely better compared to what they "have lost".Daredevil gave up some range on steal for an improved unblockable steal on lower cd but on top of that he also got 3 dodges on his choice (also previous MAJOR traits became merged into MINORS) and 1 extra evade. The benefits outweights its loss greatly.Chrono - on top of giving up on distortion got "dry" shatter removed (which is fundamental for any mesmer build as they deleted any possability to play anything but shatter based builds). On top of one trade off it got murdered with another "trade off" for nothing. Double trade off for questionable gain of 105s cd skill (that has counterplays and highly dependant on your current cooldowns and condition)Renegade has no trade offs and lets say lose one and gain 3. When we can expect it to get its trade off? Should have only 1 active legend ;)Spellbreaker - where is trade off when dagger burst is overloaded with effects - boon rip, unblockable, ok damage. GS F1 hit as much as lvl3. I'm the only one seeing it?

Yes exactly. Currently, Soulbeasts LOSE our pet to gain access to merge skills. It's already a tradeoff. It wouldn't be a tradeoff if we were able to use our pets and merge skills at the same time.You are wrong here. You could play soulbeast the way as core ranger easly and what is wrong with not having "trade off". You gained additional button on top of fully functional core class to boost urself with stats and additional effects and skills, fire it all and leave it and play just as you did before. Thats an impoved version of core. Are you blind or something?Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.But they can use your own argument against you (you are completely wrong there tho). Look - "we lose our weapon skills for duration, we are melee, our forge is a "kit"! If it wouldnt be a kit, they would be swapping any time and wouldnt be able to overheat in their life even if they had the worst heat management on the planet. But thanks to their evade that cool the forge, its impossible to overheat if you remotely pay attention to it.Firebrands lose what? Nothing. And they GAIN anywhere from 15-24 new skills that not only replace the exact functionality of the core Virtues, but are way stronger.Weavers lose what? Nothing. They GAIN dual skills and the ability to mix attunements.Access to the offhand weapon? They have to cycle elements to get to their offhand weapon skills for an example. "Mom, I want to use earth4-5! No, baby, attune to earth and then another element! Or use UNRAVEL utility!"Mirages losing a dodge is stupid. They should have weaker shatter skills just like a Spellbreaker has weaker burst skills. Cap illusions at 2. Distortion on mesmer should prevent skill usage like ALL other invuln skills. Finally, remove their ability to dodge while hard cc'd and immobilized.Arguably, mirage has trade off - losing normal evade. Yes it does, but this evade is infinitely better than what it loses. But mirage traitline like chrono traitline, poor thought and both are horrible and boring. I'm about to cry when I see grandmaster trait on mirage "gives 66% movement speed on MC" (And its there just to fix flaws of MC and cover its drawback so its not THAT obvious) when I see daredevil minors or spellbreaker minors with free 225 power and 225 ferocity AND burst reset in one.Btw your proposal would take so much more than it offer. To contrary how daredevil losing some range but improved steal and massive benefits, better evade and MORE EVADES. You suggest to nerf alrdy meh shatters(most traits that could boost it are gone) ,remove 1 clone and on top of worse movement take away (something they should have made before all this dumb nerfs) evade in cc. Billion trade offs for nothing, just like chrono. I'd say - pick 1.Spellbreaker's Arcing Slice's damage should scale with adrenaline. Currently, only the fury duration does which is why the GS F1 hits just as hard in SPB as it does in Core Warrior.Yes. As I said, warrior just exploit this design failure of anet. Higher adrenaline level = stronger effect and damage. Perfect example eviscerate, killshot, bow burst.So tldr - you kinda have the point but you are biased towards your main.
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Imagine if reaper had gotten reapers shroud in addition to core shroud (not instead of) or if firebrand had base virtue + tomes (with the downside that you couldn’t use core virtues while you are using a tome). That is what merge is on soulbeast. It’s not a specialization trade off right now, it simply is an additional skill (aka. Pure upside) which has up- and downsides when you use it. The reason why core ranger sees play over soulbeast sometimes is because core ranger traitline passive bonuses are stronger and synergize better with each other than with soulbeast (but this is similarly true for other classes).

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Doesn't matter. You lose something to gain something else.

Weavers can still single attune.

By single attuning twice or using a utility. They also have a global cooldown on attuning so it takes longer.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.It's exactly what the tradeoffs are though?

Just sounds like you are bogged down in effectiveness instead of what the trade offs, by Anets own words, are supposed to be.

What it is is the tradeoff. How strong it is is balance.

And Soulbeasts lose their pets to gain access to the merge skills. We literally trade our pets for 3 extra skills. That's a tradeoff, soulbeasts don't get access to both at the same time.

"I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level."

Guardian class mechanic: 3 virtues.Firebrand class mechanic: 15-24 additional skills.

Elementalist class mechanic: 4 solo attunements.Weaver class mechanic: 4 solo attunements OR 16 mixed attunements + 4 dual skills.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 petsSoulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets OR access to 3 merge skills.

Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:

"Yet Soulbeast loses half its class mechanic :joy:"

You're losing half your base mechanic to gain beast mode instead of just gaining beast mode and not losing anything...

You're still on about balance and effectiveness not a tradeoff from the perspective that Anet want tradeoffs to be.

You know what I'm just going to stop here. I get where you are coming from but you are missing what Anet deem as a tradeoff not the players.

It really doesn't matter how much you say it has one already it's clear that it didn't since one is now being added. I get you're mad because you main the class and feel like it's just being nerfed for no reason but it's really clear as day as to what and why this is happening.

Firebrands don't lose anything. Tomes still count as virtues in the game but they are several orders of magnitude stronger than what core guardian has.Weavers don't lose anything to gain access to their Dual Skills and mixed attunements.

Soulbeasts are LOSING half our class mechanic to gain access to 3 skills and judging by the patch notes and the updated one, Anet completely overlooked the fact that the pet swap trait cooldowns don't match the merge timer.

Weavers lose the ability to switch attunements for like 4 seconds. Not much of a trade off when you consider how long core ele is in one attunement before they switch. If it were me I'd increase it to 6 seconds so that when combined with arcane traitline it sits at 5s, up from 3.5 seconds

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Weavers can still single attune.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

Point is regardless of what's more effective the way soulbeast is right now if fb were the same it would have the option to swap to its 3 core virtues during play, or DD would be able to swap between steal and swipe during play depending on the situation lol. Soulbeast never lose pet skills or any pet mechanic cuz u can simply un merge to get them That's the difference

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

Improved stats when merged can be removed it is not needed. Just like reviving pets with merging should be removed. But that is a different point and has nothing to do with deleting parts of the basic mechanic by trade offs. The merge skills are not rly better than what pets do completely passive. You try to argue that losing the pet while merged is not a big deal, that is simply wrong. Did you ever play a Soulbeast? It is clearly an inherent trade of to lose access to pet f skills and all passive pet skills during merge. The only upgrade by that is, that Soulbeast has overall more skills available can be chained (just like core Eles already have more buttons since game release than other classes). My point is that this more in buttons/ skills can be adjusted by normal nerfs (higher cds of individual skills, dmg reductions, deleting double and triple rewards from skills). It is not needed to straight up delete parts of the Soulbeats mechanic. All you need to do is to make sure that Soulbeast needs to press more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than a core Ranger has with less buttons available. This way you higher mechanically complexity and skill ceiling (what is overall allowed to be a bit stronger than builds with lower skill ceiling because higher skill ceiling is also a trade off, just as losing all traits a 3. core traitline would add is also a trade off) without deleting active gameplay options and without deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself which are there for reasons (or do you think the creators of elite specs were just insaley incapable of balancing and had no class and game knowledge and no balance experiences? Most elites have well thought through inherent trade offs already during the new ones feel insanely artificial, lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanic and make specs unnecessary clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their basic nature).

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@bravan.3876 said:

@"shadowpass.4236" said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet. You would be right if Soulbeast could use merge skills while the normal pet f skills and the pet itself are still active too. All what is needed is too reduce the overall power lvl of the Soulbeast skill ensemble (that can be done by dmg nerfs, increasing cds on single skills and removing double and triple rewards from overloaded skills). There is no need to delete parts of the mechanic itself/ delete active gameplay options to balance Soulbeast with a SECOND trade off.

Are u for real? U cant really think losing one pet ability for 3 better ones and improved stats when merged is a trade off lol it's a trade up not off, I think ur confusing the two. By ur and shadowpass views than fb losing its 3 core virtues for all its mantra skills is a trade off when actually it's a trade up same as gaming access to 6 different pet skills vs 2 and extra stats when merging, that is not a trade off but a extra mechanic that strait up giving u a extra option on top of core while still giving u the option to play the same as core if u wish. DD cant switch its steal to 1200 range and lose its unblockable if it wishes mid match. Want acreal trade off for soulbeast? Soulbeast can swap pet out of combat while merged but as a soulbeast u are permanently merged and cannot submerged gaining the extra stats and the 3 pet skills. That's a real trade off.

Improved stats when merged can be removed it is not needed. Just like reviving pets with merging should be removed. But that is a different point and has nothing to do with deleting parts of the basic mechanic by trade offs. The merge skills are not rly better than what pets do completely passive. You try to argue that losing the pet while merged is not a big deal, that is simply wrong. Did you ever play a Soulbeast? It is clearly an inherent trade of to lose access to pet f skills and all passive pet skills during merge. The only upgrade by that is, that Soulbeast has overall more skills available can be chained (just like Eles have more buttons since game release than other classes). My point is that this more in buttons/ skills can be adjusted by normal nerfs (higher cds of individual skills, dmg reductions, deleting double and triple rewards from skills). It is not needed to straight up delete parts of the Soulbeats mechanic. All you need to do is to make sure that Soulbeast needs to press more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than a core Ranger has with less buttons available. This way you higher mechanically complexity and skill ceiling (what is overall allowed to be a bit stronger than builds with lower skill ceiling because higher skill ceiling is also a trade off, just as losing all traits a 3. core traitline would add is also a trade off) without deleting active gameplay options and without deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself which are there for reasons (or do you think the creators of elite specs were just insaley incapable of balancing and had no class and game knowledge and no balance experiences? Most elites have well thought through inherent trade offs already during the new ones feel insanely artificial, lack in understanding of the underlying elite mechanic and make specs unnecessary clunky if not unplayable by contradicting their basic nature).

I mean it's pretty simple to understand. A soulbeast can play as a core having pet un merged and has access to passive and non passive pet skills same as a core ranger. With soulbeast u get the merge mechanic on top not instead of the core pet mechanic. That is not a trade off that's a gain of another mechanic on top of the existing one regardless of what one is better, u can basically chose in match whether to play with core mechanic or the added soulbeast mechanic. As I said fb cannot chose to use its 3 core virtues as a fb if it fits a situation better in a match on the fly, nor can a DD chose to drop a dodge and unblockable swipe for steal mid game if a longer range steal would be advantages at the time.Only having access to one pet at all times or being perma merged with all of its advantages and disadvantages compared to ranger would be a actual trade off.Not sure what u dont get about the trade of concept?

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@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

To FB trade off:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok i would not rly have called that a trade off because that is just inherent logic of turning one button skill into a whole kit of skills (which then ofc should not all be instant and ofc should also have individual cds otherwise it would be even more powerful compared to core than it already is). But on the other side you are also right, adding these tome skills removes the core skill, all the power they had and the advantage that they were instant is gone.Still you have to agree, that the overall power lvl of tomes compared to core virtues is still insanely higher. With that logic other elites like Soulbeats and Mirage get ADDITIONAL trade off over the inherent ones (and inherent trade off from FB is kinda weak you have to admit). Don't get me wrong, i don't want FB to lose a tome or even lose 2 tomes or lose weapon swap as SECOND trade off. I think it is enough to balance out the overall higher power lvl of these more in buttons/skills included in the tomes by nerfing the skills individually in their individual cds and in their individual rewards, means just normal nerfs (higher cds, dmg reduction, deleting power creeped double and triple rewards from overloaded skills like MoT or tome skills) and not add a SECOND trade off treatment that will straight up delete parts of the FB mechanic. So that FB just as Soulbeast is forced to use more button for the same power lvl that core has with less buttons available.

Holos didn't get f5 removed, they just straight up buffed core Engi right before HoT release by adding an f5 to core for the purpose of getting another skillslot they can put elite mechanics into. That is not a trade off for the elite that is simply a pre buff of core. Holo has one inherent trade off that is the head mechanic. The head mechanic adds skill ceiling by creating the need to care for the head penalty. It also by logic makes Holo unable to start casts in holomode and switch to a kit already (because Holoskills are linked to create head while kits are not) without interrupting the cast from the holomode skill (not to mention that core Engi has this lock out mechanic too, it is impossible to start a cast from a kit skill and switch to the wepoanskills without interrupting the kit skill cast). Holomode is literally a kit/ second weapon set hybrid which got his own activation button to not consume an utility slot (they could have placed it into the weapon swap button instead an extra f5 button for example and it would be exactly the same but for no reasons they decided to pre buff core with addign an f5 and starting the power creep before elite specs even got added to the game). That Holomode is another kit not consuming an utility slot or gives Engi a second weaponset (define it how you want, it doesn't matter) is straight up a buff and the only trade off it has and the ONLY trade off it NEEDS is the head penalty. Neither is the f5 replacement a trade off nor is a SECOND trade off aside from the inherent one of head needed to balance Holo.

Weaver and Tempest have inherent trade offs just like Soulbeast and Mirage. None of these 4 specs need an additional trade off, in particular when they are so bad made that they contradict the elite mechanic itself and make it clunky or even unplayble. All overperfroming elite spec builds can be adjusted by normal nerfs directly pointing at what rly is the issue and not by deleting parts of the mechanic itself withotu even solving the problems( Mirage wil be even more passive then before not less).

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

??

The tomes are literally infinitely better than core virtues.

Weavers can still single attune.

Losing a single f5 skill is not a tradeoff.

As guardian players, no tomes are not infinitely better than core virtues. They are better only with healing power and boon duration. This is why every single FB build runs healing. Honestly, if I could I would rather have VoR over ToR in any situation. Even with Sage FB, ToR is questionable. It only works well going full support. VoJ is also stronger than ToJ. You lose CC, but the passive damage is double. The only virtue that both FB and DH have it so much better is ToC. VoC is trash. It does, literally, nothing. Of course, the tomes lock your skills bar, where virtues are usable with weapons.

There are two main reasons that FB is meta over core condi and support builds: mantras and axe. If I have access access to axe and mantras outside of FB, I would not even give it a remote consideration, outside of full support build. Fuck the tomes. I can put that stats and runes into damage, instead of being bound to healing and boon duration.

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@shadowpass.4236 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

Yeah I agree. The heat mechanic is a sound idea it should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

The heat mechanic should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

That was what i said too or not?

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@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Holosmiths lose what? A single minor F5 skill? That's literally nothing and instead they gain access to a ridiculously strong offensive kit.

Holo didn't lose f5, core Engi got just buffed right before HoT release to create another button to place elite mechanics into. The actual Holo trade of is the head mechanic. The one and only trade off Holo neads. Compareable to the inherent trade offs Soulbeasts and Mirages already have and for that also don't need a second trade off.

Lmao holo's heat mechanics as a trade off is a joke, for how easy it is to avoid overheating it may as well no exist.

That is a point of normal balancing. When head penalty drops in too late (so the player can camp in Holomode too long) or the head penalty is too weak (so the player doesn't need to care for it, doesn't need to fear it) then ofc Holo will be op and the inherent skill ceiling from this inherent well thought through trade off is gone. The solution is to fine adjust the head penalty to a lvl where it isn't too weak (so player can ignore it) but also not too strong ( that it would prevent timed and reactive uses of holoskills by forcing the player out of holomode too soon/fast). The solution can't be to delete Holoskills from the kit or to make Holomode to consume an utility slot and rly delete the f5 (not the pseudo deletion by pre buffing core, mean rly delete it just like Chrono only has 4 f skills) by adding a SECOND NOT NEEDED trade off. If you want that i am sure you never played Holo yourself.

The heat mechanic should just require more effort or attention to avoid overheating.

That was what i said too or not?

Yeah was agreeing with u. Fixed post above lol

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@bravan.3876 said:

@shadowpass.4236 said:Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

It's really so easy to understand.

I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

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