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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta

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  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    I am curious. This isn't by any means the first time they have done this.

    Act 4 of HoT requires Migraine as part of the achievement meta - a hard multi player instanced version of the story. If anything requiring more commitment than a strike mission. WHy is that OK and not a precedent for scaring off the population.

    A lot season story ap do seem to need multiple players for the time limits and requirements as well, esp in LS4

    If memory serves, LS1 required Twilight Arbour. I believe the other 2 dungeons at the time were also required for the episode meta

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Only their metrics will ever really tell that though.

    Their aim is bridge the gap between those who raid and those who don't. They need to do things like this to at least try and make that work. Even if it fails. But unless they commit, then they will never know. Anet are generally pretty bad at following through on things so I am pleased to see them go all in on this as best they can.

    There will be people will get annoyed by it, but I don't think the vast majority ultimately care. Just like the vast majority probably don't have the grievances that many of us on these forums. They just get on with it because the game asks them to - and I suspect that is just fine for most players. I can bang on about Drakkar devolving back to the dull zergfests of old which ignore years of constructive feedback which has kittened me right off, but it's clear people are just getting on and playing it. I don't think adding in a bit of instanced content is going to do much damage to the population.

    I also don't think anything has changed on a fundamental level. I think if anything the way things started off with dungeons and shortly after fractals and players were more conjoined. It was the way raids were implemented that splintered things in probably the strongest way. It feels like they are trying to get back to way things were by building bridges into content again.

    The more they make things like meta one dimensional in their approach, the more they continue to fracture the community in my opinion.

    Even if you don't agree, GW2 is an incredibly varied playerbase and I think trying to separate what players may or might like in the pve environment is probably a headache for the design team. There will always be something that will annoy players. Better to bung it all in and give players all sorts of different things to do. I find that a more positive approach personally.

    We have all the metrics from 2015 that we need. The raid population is small, as mentioned by Andrew Gray, and that means the player base has spoken on the matter... The majority do not want raid type content in their currents forms, and it was a massive oversight to not include things like difficulty scaling in the first place.

    We have no metrics. Only Anet have metrics. Whether they show the strategy is working, they have yet to reveal and perhaps it is too soon because the entire process isn't complete yet since more Strikes are to come (and if my understanding is right, they are going to be harder/more complex)

    The raid population is small. They want to change that. The feedback they have is that raids are too hard or that players want to do them but feel left out by a perception of elitism. ANet are clearly trying to bring the two groups back together. Even trying to bring your communities together I think is a very sound strategy for a multi player game.

    I can't say it will def work, but I agree with the way they are trying. You are correct about difficulty scaling and this their more innovative way of doing that - just a lot later than perhaps it should have been

    We have 5 years of the majority of players saying they do not want to be forced into raids or forced into raid content, and that was clarified by Andrew Gray.

    Did he say players do not want to be forced into it though? Or that it was too difficult for them and there was no bridge for that

    @Fire Attunement.9835 said:
    We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there >isn't anything to help players work their way up.

    That suggests players do want to do raids, but there obstacles players want removing.

    I am willing to retract that if I have missed a statement somewhere else

    These “stepping stone” will not make raids magically better, not will they finally attract a larger audience. And by forcing raid type content to complete a new zone will only serve to alienate players from that content and the game itself.

    Again, the majority hate/dislike/don’t wanna do raids in GW2 period. That is a fact. These strike missions will do nothing to change that.

    And you could be spot on. Or you could be wrong. There is no fact here yet because what they are trying to do isn't complete. For all we know, it could actually be working according to their metrics. Or it could be failing miserably. I don't know. You don't know.
    What we do know is what ANet have gathered feedback about the opinion on raids and that seemingly is players want the obstacles removed and a smoother transition, not that they don't want them at all. Not one of us are better positioned to overturn that feedback.

    I guess we can refer back to this in a few months and see if the attempt as indeed successful or not.

    But going right the way back to the OP's original concerns. I support what they are doing and have no issues with them continuing to add lots of varied content to the meta achievement. I think such things fit nicely there.

    This is the opening sentence in the OP... " For the first time ever, in order to get a zone meta achievement, people are required to get achievements from ten man instanced content."

    Forcing players to do raid type content, when the devs full well know that the majority hate said content... and 5 years later the result of raids is... “the small audience they attract”... isn't going to make players happy. We don't need any metrics to know that forcing players to do what they don't want to do is BAD.

    As I said above - the feedback that Anet have is that players appear to want to do it, they just find obstacles to doing it and have asked for those obstacles to be removed. The desire seems to exist based on that reply from Andrew Gray. That is why they are pushing these strikes so hard. Any statement from us otherwise flows against the feedback they have gathered.

    The question and subject of this thread isn't whether players want to raid. It's whether pushing the strikes as a part of the meta is the right strategy. I am not dismissing the OP's feedback, I just disagree with it because I like how they have implemented it

    That's great, you are entitled to feel the way you feel. Just be aware that forcing strike missions on players will backfire and not grow raid participation, and we don't need metrics on what we already know from past experiences.

    Edit- And out of curiosity, do you run spvp MATs or seasons?

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    Only their metrics will ever really tell that though.

    Their aim is bridge the gap between those who raid and those who don't. They need to do things like this to at least try and make that work. Even if it fails. But unless they commit, then they will never know. Anet are generally pretty bad at following through on things so I am pleased to see them go all in on this as best they can.

    There will be people will get annoyed by it, but I don't think the vast majority ultimately care. Just like the vast majority probably don't have the grievances that many of us on these forums. They just get on with it because the game asks them to - and I suspect that is just fine for most players. I can bang on about Drakkar devolving back to the dull zergfests of old which ignore years of constructive feedback which has kittened me right off, but it's clear people are just getting on and playing it. I don't think adding in a bit of instanced content is going to do much damage to the population.

    I also don't think anything has changed on a fundamental level. I think if anything the way things started off with dungeons and shortly after fractals and players were more conjoined. It was the way raids were implemented that splintered things in probably the strongest way. It feels like they are trying to get back to way things were by building bridges into content again.

    The more they make things like meta one dimensional in their approach, the more they continue to fracture the community in my opinion.

    Even if you don't agree, GW2 is an incredibly varied playerbase and I think trying to separate what players may or might like in the pve environment is probably a headache for the design team. There will always be something that will annoy players. Better to bung it all in and give players all sorts of different things to do. I find that a more positive approach personally.

    We have all the metrics from 2015 that we need. The raid population is small, as mentioned by Andrew Gray, and that means the player base has spoken on the matter... The majority do not want raid type content in their currents forms, and it was a massive oversight to not include things like difficulty scaling in the first place.

    We have no metrics. Only Anet have metrics. Whether they show the strategy is working, they have yet to reveal and perhaps it is too soon because the entire process isn't complete yet since more Strikes are to come (and if my understanding is right, they are going to be harder/more complex)

    The raid population is small. They want to change that. The feedback they have is that raids are too hard or that players want to do them but feel left out by a perception of elitism. ANet are clearly trying to bring the two groups back together. Even trying to bring your communities together I think is a very sound strategy for a multi player game.

    I can't say it will def work, but I agree with the way they are trying. You are correct about difficulty scaling and this their more innovative way of doing that - just a lot later than perhaps it should have been

    We have 5 years of the majority of players saying they do not want to be forced into raids or forced into raid content, and that was clarified by Andrew Gray.

    Did he say players do not want to be forced into it though? Or that it was too difficult for them and there was no bridge for that

    @Fire Attunement.9835 said:
    We gathered data to determine why, and the most common answer was that there is a giant leap in difficulty between raids and other endgame content, and there >isn't anything to help players work their way up.

    That suggests players do want to do raids, but there obstacles players want removing.

    I am willing to retract that if I have missed a statement somewhere else

    These “stepping stone” will not make raids magically better, not will they finally attract a larger audience. And by forcing raid type content to complete a new zone will only serve to alienate players from that content and the game itself.

    Again, the majority hate/dislike/don’t wanna do raids in GW2 period. That is a fact. These strike missions will do nothing to change that.

    And you could be spot on. Or you could be wrong. There is no fact here yet because what they are trying to do isn't complete. For all we know, it could actually be working according to their metrics. Or it could be failing miserably. I don't know. You don't know.
    What we do know is what ANet have gathered feedback about the opinion on raids and that seemingly is players want the obstacles removed and a smoother transition, not that they don't want them at all. Not one of us are better positioned to overturn that feedback.

    I guess we can refer back to this in a few months and see if the attempt as indeed successful or not.

    But going right the way back to the OP's original concerns. I support what they are doing and have no issues with them continuing to add lots of varied content to the meta achievement. I think such things fit nicely there.

    This is the opening sentence in the OP... " For the first time ever, in order to get a zone meta achievement, people are required to get achievements from ten man instanced content."

    Forcing players to do raid type content, when the devs full well know that the majority hate said content... and 5 years later the result of raids is... “the small audience they attract”... isn't going to make players happy. We don't need any metrics to know that forcing players to do what they don't want to do is BAD.

    As I said above - the feedback that Anet have is that players appear to want to do it, they just find obstacles to doing it and have asked for those obstacles to be removed. The desire seems to exist based on that reply from Andrew Gray. That is why they are pushing these strikes so hard. Any statement from us otherwise flows against the feedback they have gathered.

    The question and subject of this thread isn't whether players want to raid. It's whether pushing the strikes as a part of the meta is the right strategy. I am not dismissing the OP's feedback, I just disagree with it because I like how they have implemented it

    That's great, you are entitled to feel the way you feel. Just be aware that forcing strike missions on players will backfire and not grow raid participation, and we don't need metrics on what we already know from past experiences.

    Edit- And out of curiosity, do you run spvp MATs or seasons?

    I can't see it backfire. Before there were raiders and non-raiders only.
    Now there are raiders and non-raiders and players who do strikes but not raids.
    I'm sure some who never raided will try raids after strikes but someone who won't even do strikes when some are easy were never gonna do raids anyway.
    The only question is will players quit because they couldn't do one meta because they refuse to do strikes I mean maybe but doubt it will be a mass exodus. Now if they continue next meta with and added strikes being even harder it could chase some away

    I don't think players quit for one reason. But players accumulate reasons until they quit. For me this is a big one. I really don't want to play and I'm not going to play as much. I'm certainly not feeling like spending money in the gem store. I might not quit but it will affect my hours in game.

    And that's your choice. I avoided jumping puzzles forever then over time I did almost them all. Still not a fan. The light puzzles I had no interest but this meta kinda made me do um. Stikes are similar. I don't look forward to new ones but It's just a world boss with a 10 player cap. You join and even if you suck most times the 8 left alive kill it esp groth kodan and fraenir. It's not like after I'm like omg that Vayne dude sucked and send you whispers. You try if you like it great if not do the bare minimum beat um each once or ignore a meta which isn't the end of the world. Up to you but I say at least try.

    Sure it's my choice. I agree. But it's not JUST my choice. It's everyone's choice. And if enough people are affected by that choice it will affect the game negatively. There's one group of players less pissed off than other players. I suggest it's probably not the group of players you'd want to alienate. Just my thought process. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe none of the casual players left in the game care enough about the meta to be frustrated...but I don't think that's the case.

    Saying this is my choice is absolutely true. Suggesting that I"m some how alone in my feelings on this probably isn't. Whether this is a good idea or not will depend on the size of that demographic.

    I never said you were the only one affected. You don't like groups. I even said most likely even the players who don't do well in strikes aren't noticed/remembered and later on you write it's harder to be invisible in strikes which tells me that's what you are worried about. Being forced to join a group like it's going to out you to the world if you do bad. Do I even scroll over the names in a strike um no. You are just a lil icon I will never remember your class/spec name etc.The thing is I hate replaying story. Sometimes anet puts hard story achievement in as req for the meta. Like Dragonfall I don't have meta cause no interest in weak point nonsense but I need that. Why didn't anet give the kill 1000 mobs as progress to it? I would of finished those. Or bitterfrost. No way in hell I'm going thru that long story stop 5 times kill 100 mobs so I can hope not to get hit and you can cheese it too by letting npcs do it and afk for 25m. Some people hate jumping puzzles and sometimes that's included. So if you remove everything everyone thinks shouldn't be in a meta we are all let with do easy story ones do events 20 times etc. Yeah the meta will be done so fast if anet caters to everyone. I bet anet caves too and removes this. Leave it undone instead of letting it affect you and you say I'll leave the game. Or leave the game. Or adjust and try. Def don't ever try FF14 as every raid/dungeon and their harder version or strikes is req to do story/unlock new areas.

    Nah, if this doesn't work out, it'll be my last MMO. The potential for MMORPGs is there, but the evolution of them has left, in my opinion, much to be desired. I seriously doubt any MMO will be worth the effort, after my time here.

    This has nothing to do to catering to everyone. This has to do with changing something in a way that I find annoying. The anonymous comment wasn't about me, btw, I don't really care if people know who I am or not, it was for other guildies, who aren't such great players perhaps who don't want to get noticed or only play with guildies who know them. I'm sorta that way too. I really don't pug anything. I hang with my mates.

    And that's the thing. This entire thing is just unnecessary in my mind and it takes away my personal end game. It may not be your end game and that's fine, but it's mine and it's other people as well. If enough people feel this way Anet will see it in the numbers and they'll be changes appropriately. If enough people don't feel this way they'll continue what they're doing without us. Either way it'll be fine. But yeah, this is a deal breaker for me.

    I tried to explain there's stuff I don't like in meta's to but this is only what annoys you I see that now. Ok, so this was some long emo goodbye GW2 thread then. So goodbye and gl

    You probably should reread what I said. I said if this is the future of the game, it's going there without me. I'm not leaving the game at this point. I'm not twelve. I'm saying if this is the road the game is going down, it will do so without me, because it's a deal breaker. That's all.

    It's a change to the game that I don't endorse and I don't like and I feel strongly about. Shrugs.

    Then stop saying things like I'll quit or i'll never try another mmo if this one doesn't work out and I won't see you as some 12 year old and actually see that as many that don't like strikes added to meta many don't like to replay story just to get achieves tied to meta and if you fail you have to start from beginning and not at boss etc and many don't like lil puzzles but we all aren't on here i'm so upset ima quit if anet doesn't address this in the future. And I actually agree if next meta even harder strikes are required it will be a problem but if you sit here and say you can't in no way get 3 kodan 3 fraenir and spam kodan farm group to get sanctifier done i'm like come on. Jormag boneskinner eff them but you don't need them

    It's the slippery slope I'm worried about here. If this trend continues, it's going to make my progress in the game all but stop. That's enough reason for me to express concern.

    And you have and we hear you and I bet anet hears you and others like you next map or there will be way more voices if harder strikes are required. I do think you are overreacting and I bet you even have meta done and think you are being the voice of others.

    Overreacting is my superpower.

    And we thought you were meant to be the voice of reason and calm on these boards. I think too many battles have corrupted you to our side ;)

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Randulf.7614 said:
    I am curious. This isn't by any means the first time they have done this.

    Act 4 of HoT requires Migraine as part of the achievement meta - a hard multi player instanced version of the story. If anything requiring more commitment than a strike mission. WHy is that OK and not a precedent for scaring off the population.

    A lot season story ap do seem to need multiple players for the time limits and requirements as well, esp in LS4

    If memory serves, LS1 required Twilight Arbour. I believe the other 2 dungeons at the time were also required for the episode meta

    Twilight Arbor achievements were a standalone dungeon category which I have absolutely no problems with. It's like PvP. It's seperated from casual open world PvE. Same with fractured which was a fractal meta achievement. Again no problem.

    I absolutely despised the migraine achievement. I didn't think it fit with everything else. I got it as a one off and, if you notice, when POF launched it had nothing like that. Because I guarantee you most of the playerbase never touched that achievement and got frustrated. I think HoT cost this game a lot of players. I can't prove this but if it didn't, I don't think Anet would have used a quarterly update to make it more friendly for solo and casual players. They decoupled day from night. Changed some champs to vets. Thinned out some areas that had a lot of foes. They absolutely had to go back and make HoT easier, because people were on the warpath. That achievement wasn't touched, but believe me, it wasn't well done either. And it wasn't repeated.

    What I'm seeing here is the possible beginning of a trend. They said strike missions would get harder to prepare people for raids, which was fine by me, as long as they were kept out of the meta. They're not and that becomes a problem for me.

    You want hard instanced content in the game....keep it seperate or give people other options. A better way to train people for raids is to use actual raid bosses in practice arenas, or difficulty scales on the raids themselves.

    My objection isn't to difficult instanced content. It's when an attempt to get people to do that content changes the game for people like me. I think it's a fair enough complaint. Again this is only one time..but...I'm fairly concerned that if this goes unmarked, it'll get worse.

    Edit: According to GW 2 efficiency this is the percentage of people who finished migraine:
    22,050 of 227,184 (9.706%)

    And that wouldn't include the more casual folks who don't use effiiciency. For a meta, that's got to frustrate a fair few players.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    If the game is going down a road where you don't like, well you now see how most WvW, PvP and hardcore PvE player feels for some time :lol:

    Having the achievement locked behind 10 man instanced content only increases the reward's value, which is totally fine. Means you jumped over your own shadow and actually achieved something which is fine for MMO RPGs, things shouldn't be handed over for doing minuscule things. Many people want Dhuum Helmet. Oopsie you have to give some effort, search for some raid trainers and adapt. If you don't like that type of content, then I will pull out the usual saying of the casuals: "then this game is simply not for you." xD

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bosanac.3658 said:
    If the game is going down a road where you don't like, well you now see how most WvW, PvP and hardcore PvE player feels for some time :lol:

    Having the achievement locked behind 10 man instanced content only increases the reward's value, which is totally fine. Means you jumped over your own shadow and actually achieved something which is fine for MMO RPGs, things shouldn't be handed over for doing minuscule things. Many people want Dhuum Helmet. Oopsie you have to give some effort, search for some raid trainers and adapt. If you don't like that type of content, then I will pull out the usual saying of the casuals: "then this game is simply not for you." xD

    I stopped complaining about raid rewards pretty much ages ago. Yes there's stuff locked behind there I'll never get. But since I've been getting zone rewards all along and it's a fairly casual playerbase that's probably interested in them, why poke that percentage of the playerbase. It's not the reward that's the problem. It's that this was essentially the end game I was playing and now I probably won't be. Particularly if it escalates from here, which is my concern. If that percentage of the playerbase is big enough, and I don't know that it is, it could affect everything else in the game as well. I'm not so sure it adds enough to the game to justify the possible risk that's all.

  • neoteo.3975neoteo.3975 Member ✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Not sure how hard this idea would be to implement, for strike missions that have the good rewards drop once per day as they do now, but wheb you do it again with a completely new team or at least one new member that didn't do it that day, you get reward again. If this idea is horrible, anyways the idea is to somehow give good rewards players for creating groups and grabbing noobs, this would also work for fractals and raids.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    If the rewards don't matter then what is the issue? You get to play through the story, you get the usual mission rewards. Achievements are generally for the players who want more, and who want to "achieve" things, its literally in the name. ANET has started realizing that, and the majority of the playerbase doesn't even do achievements so almost no harm done.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I doubt losing players over this either way is going to break the game. However, GW2 has already bled players aplenty, and will sooner or later reach a point where such losses will be telling. It's a pity ANet feels the need to risk losing some of one demographic to try to keep the tattered remnants of another. Taking that risk is, to me, a bad sign.

    I don't think it will have any noticeable effect on the population at all. I think any talk of leaving over a meta is a bit silly to be honest. if people want to do that, then that's up to them, but a single stretch of achievement which blocks nothing more than an emote and a few AP, is not something to be overly concerned about and I don't think the majority of players will care or even register a problem here at all.

    MMO's incorporate lots of different aspects and encouraging players to try different things in it is an extremely sound business approach. The game is unlikely to survive if it keeps segregating communities, so it has to try and encourage players to play together in as much content as possible. And this isn't really new. Anet has been doing this in different ways with different modes.

    There's a lot of problems right now in the game from the deteriation of the story, the weakened map design, the poor quality meta/world boss designs (drakkar included), but the bringing together of communities is something I have long wanted them find solutions for. This attitude of "I am a casual therefore don't force me to do something else" is not healthy for an MMO game at all. I would think Anet recognise that too.

    People thought the same thing about HOT and it cost this game. You might not believe it, but I do.

    Except HoT was an entire expansion and not a single achievement. That’s a very large difference.

    The problem is the playerbase is getting older, not younger. The age of the average gamer is not looking to get into raids in the first place, which was appearantly the reason this change was brought it.

    Do you have anything to backup the claim that age is a significant factor? People of all ages do raids in this game and others. Raids are not designed for strictly younger players.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:
    If the rewards don't matter then what is the issue? You get to play through the story, you get the usual mission rewards. Achievements are generally for the players who want more, and who want to "achieve" things, its literally in the name. ANET has started realizing that, and the majority of the playerbase doesn't even do achievements so almost no harm done.

    I think you may be underestimating the number of people who play for achievements, as they were anyway. If that number falls off significantly with this change, then Anet will change this going forward. I have a guild full of casuals who pretty much play just to check off boxes. The open world/story stuff used to be their perview. This stuff could have been done without affected the existing system, with less risk that's all.

    People who do achievements are well capable of taking on the Strike. The premise that "Everything that is required to fill the achievements bar has to be something I like" has a rather poor foundation. Like I said, "achievements" exist for a reason, to award players for doing more and to give more effort. Player number and percentage changing because of "harder achievements", which are purely optional, also doesn't sound presuasive nor well founded.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @IndigoSundown.5419 said:
    I doubt losing players over this either way is going to break the game. However, GW2 has already bled players aplenty, and will sooner or later reach a point where such losses will be telling. It's a pity ANet feels the need to risk losing some of one demographic to try to keep the tattered remnants of another. Taking that risk is, to me, a bad sign.

    I don't think it will have any noticeable effect on the population at all. I think any talk of leaving over a meta is a bit silly to be honest. if people want to do that, then that's up to them, but a single stretch of achievement which blocks nothing more than an emote and a few AP, is not something to be overly concerned about and I don't think the majority of players will care or even register a problem here at all.

    MMO's incorporate lots of different aspects and encouraging players to try different things in it is an extremely sound business approach. The game is unlikely to survive if it keeps segregating communities, so it has to try and encourage players to play together in as much content as possible. And this isn't really new. Anet has been doing this in different ways with different modes.

    There's a lot of problems right now in the game from the deteriation of the story, the weakened map design, the poor quality meta/world boss designs (drakkar included), but the bringing together of communities is something I have long wanted them find solutions for. This attitude of "I am a casual therefore don't force me to do something else" is not healthy for an MMO game at all. I would think Anet recognise that too.

    People thought the same thing about HOT and it cost this game. You might not believe it, but I do.

    Except HoT was an entire expansion and not a single achievement. That’s a very large difference.

    The problem is the playerbase is getting older, not younger. The age of the average gamer is not looking to get into raids in the first place, which was appearantly the reason this change was brought it.

    Do you have anything to backup the claim that age is a significant factor? People of all ages do raids in this game and others.

    Hot was an expansion. This is a meta achievement in a new Saga that sets the tone for what comes after. Do you suppose if Anet is trying to push raid participation up this will be the last time? If it continues, it's a problem. IF it's a one off it's not.

    Yes. HoT was an expansion and this is a meta achievement. Kind of like what I said in my post so why repeat it?

    They’re pushing strike mission content; not raid content. Strikes are not raids.

    As for do I have proof. Nah. No proof.

    But I know when I was younger I had infnite time for games and activities and as I got older I had kids and jobs and responsibilities and raiding requires a level of commitment. Seems to me that as the gaming population gets older, they're going to look for more activities that aren't necessarily going to have to be scheduled or organzied. I could be wrong, but the pick up and play aspect would seem to favor getting older. Just a guess. Annecdotally it seems to follow my experience. I know a whole lot of people who raided when they were younger, burned out on it and now play more casually, but of course that means nothing. It's just my personal experience.

    Strikes are fairly casual as far as time commitment goes.

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I agree with Ayrilana and Bosanac.

    Strike missions are a preparation for raids but nobody would have been complaining if they had said its a preparation for 10 man dungeons... Just the word "raid" alone seems to put ppl into defence mode and "I won't even try this". First of all the game is an mmo > multiplayer. This means the game aims you to play with a group of people. Either by tagging up in big zergs (worldboss, wvw, guild missions) or in smaller groups (guild missions, fractal/dungeon/strike/raid and casually doing any open world content varying from meta's till champions till just gathering together). If you want no other ppl around you, you are better of in a single player game. As for strike missions in the meta achievement of a living world episode. Totally fine. Yes the newest strike boss may be more difficult but we have more strike bosses that count with achievements and those are easy (can be done with friends and guild members if you prefer over randoms). Some of these strike mission achievements even can be soloed (boneskinner torches). If you join a random group for strike missions this does not mean you even have to talk, have a specific build (ofcourse preferred but if you just do it once for the achievement you can kinda leech along on the easy bosses) and in general go from the point that players are friendly and not toxic. Yes there are players that are toxic but this definetly is not the mayority. You don't have to get the meta achievement and nobody died from doing a strike mission for achievement once. You might even start to like it... There is no scheduling needed for strikes, you just hop in, kill the boss, and hop out. There were more difficult meta achievements like Migraine from HoT. And I guess Balthazar from PoF was also one players struggled on.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aaralyna.3104 said:
    I agree with Ayrilana and Bosanac.

    Strike missions are a preparation for raids but nobody would have been complaining if they had said its a preparation for 10 man dungeons... Just the word "raid" alone seems to put ppl into defence mode and "I won't even try this". First of all the game is an mmo > multiplayer. This means the game aims you to play with a group of people. Either by tagging up in big zergs (worldboss, wvw, guild missions) or in smaller groups (guild missions, fractal/dungeon/strike/raid and casually doing any open world content varying from meta's till champions till just gathering together). If you want no other ppl around you, you are better of in a single player game.

    You can call it what you want. ESO tried calling them Trials, it will not change what they are. Calling a dog a cat won't magically turn it into a cat.

    Except strikes are not a rebranding of raids. As someone that has done raids, I’m kind of surprised that you’re holding strike missions on the same level as them.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:

    @Aaralyna.3104 said:
    I agree with Ayrilana and Bosanac.

    Strike missions are a preparation for raids but nobody would have been complaining if they had said its a preparation for 10 man dungeons... Just the word "raid" alone seems to put ppl into defence mode and "I won't even try this". First of all the game is an mmo > multiplayer. This means the game aims you to play with a group of people. Either by tagging up in big zergs (worldboss, wvw, guild missions) or in smaller groups (guild missions, fractal/dungeon/strike/raid and casually doing any open world content varying from meta's till champions till just gathering together). If you want no other ppl around you, you are better of in a single player game.

    You can call it what you want. ESO tried calling them Trials, it will not change what they are. Calling a dog a cat won't magically turn it into a cat.

    Except strikes are not a rebranding of raids. As someone that has done raids, I’m kind of surprised that you’re holding strike missions on the same level as them.

    Just comparing them to raids in WoW. Difficulty, complexity or number of bosses didn't matter for the definition, just the group size. Anything that was bigger than normal groupsize was defined as a raid. Didn't matter if it was a fast raid like Onyxia with only 1 boss, or something longer like Naxx/ICC.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    For all of those that don't like having to do strike mission achievements for the meta: have you actually done strikes and put as much effort into them as you would have done for any story or open world achievement? I have a suspicion that a lot of those that don't like it probably have never actually done strikes or at least put much effort into it.

    Doesn’t matter. The strike mission requirements should be removed from the completion equation.

    Based on what? That you don't like them? I didn't particularly enjoy grinding events so those should be removed too.

    As I've said numerous times, it's not the strike missions that's the problem, it's the change. Do you remember how the personal story had to be changed from a dungeon to a solo instance because people complained? The same thing happened to me in Rift. THe main story line ended in a raid. I didn't want to raid and it was one of the main things that drove me from that game. I suppose I should be thankful on that count.

    But if you want to raise the bar, in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. It's long been a problem with the nature of open world PvE being so casual in this game. You change the game you lose the playerbase. It's just logic.

    This doesn't follow your complaint. The Achievements doesn't hinder you from experiencing the Main Story Line. I don't know of any Achievement acting like a gate that prevents players from enjoying the Main Story Line. Achievement is something YOU choose to work on, it was never a requirement for the Main Story Line. That's a misrepresentation of the facts. ArenaNet is not doing that.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Infinity.6927 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    Casual players don't care about achievements. So the achievement requirements means literally nothing to casuals. If the player cares about it, then they are not casual players.

    Just saying.

    You sir, must have a limited and restrictive definition of casual, to have arrived at this conclusion. I know plenty of casual players, like myself, who love to get their achievements. They like to get their 5k, 10K or whatever K achievement chests as do I. It's also a friendly bit of competition in my guild to see who can reach the next goal first.

    The moment you choose to work on an achievement, you're not casually playing, especially when you participate in any, albeit friendly, competition. If you're working on achievements, masteries, map complettion, etc. -- you are working, not casually playing. If I completed an achievement (i.e. Agent of Entropy), yay, but by no means I worked for it and it means nothing.

    But being casual, achievements aren't my[or most of the people I know] only focus. I spend my days doing the stories, playing throughout the entirety of Tyria, helping people when needed, getting dailies, crafting, making legendaries, doing a bit of WvW, PvP, or fractals, but the more content there is the less time I have to do WvW or PvP though.

    Crafting legendaries is not for casual either. You may call yourself casual, but your activities disagrees with you.

    I am a very casual player who doesn't really like organised content such as raids. I find them artificially outside of the world, and are exclusive, not inclusive. MMOs I thought were about being in the world with other players not locked away and needing special requirements such as a certain amount of DPS or skill.

    I don't like raids and achievements because it's work. Work is not for a casual player like me.

    My characters, as are my accounts, many and are always busy in the world of Tyria, being part of a community, never bored, always doing something,. I also hover in and out of the top 100 in NA for achievements and I am a proud casual.

    You have a very strange definition of what a casual player is, but that's your choice. I'm not going to argue with that, instead I'll simply disagree.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The moment you choose to work on an achievement, you're not casually playing, especially when you participate in any, albeit friendly, competition. If you're working on achievements, masteries, map complettion, etc. -- you are working, not casually playing. If I completed an achievement (i.e. Agent of Entropy), yay, but by no means I worked for it and it means nothing.

    Your definition of "casual" has no merit. You might as well say: "the moment you attack an enemy, you're not casually playing. If you're working on killing enemies, you're working, not casually playing." Completing achievements is as much a goal in the game as killing enemies. Checking to see which achievement you might want to attempt today is no less casual as deciding where in the world to kill enemies today.

    No it's not, lol. That argument is flawed.

    If you don't know the difference between someone playing basketball in a local park vs. someone playing professional basketball working to compete for the championship, then our conversation will not be very productive.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You can call it what you want. ESO tried calling them Trials, it will not change what they are. Calling a dog a cat won't magically turn it into a cat.
    I've raided in the past, I have the achievements, doesn't mean I enjoy instanced content.
    MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer, nothing about instanced 5-10 man content is massive. You're better off playing a lobby-based game like Warframe, MHW etc.
    I'm not playing an MMO to distance myself from the large groups (Worldbosses, WvW, GMs) just to play some low-man lobby content. I'm here for the massive numbers. Zones full of people.

    This preconception that people that dislike that type of content never tried it is a joke. Same thing goes for the "open-world players are single players".

    So you have raided in the past. This means you can do just 1x a strike in your lifetime just for the achievement no problem. I don't enjoy everything either but I do it if I want that specific achievement. Can just do it once and go back to things I do enjoy more no problem. So as I read your statement you have done the strike mission and got the achievements needed for the meta achievement so why complain? If you want something you get something and then do whatever you want to do (tho you wanted to get the achievement as well and by that wanted to do the strike mission at that moment else you would have just skipped the meta achievement). And to be honest, doing most worldbosses does feel like solo playing since there is no communication, no strategy, all for themselves and you don't even have to join any squad.

  • Manasa Devi.7958Manasa Devi.7958 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Manasa Devi.7958 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:
    The moment you choose to work on an achievement, you're not casually playing, especially when you participate in any, albeit friendly, competition. If you're working on achievements, masteries, map complettion, etc. -- you are working, not casually playing. If I completed an achievement (i.e. Agent of Entropy), yay, but by no means I worked for it and it means nothing.

    Your definition of "casual" has no merit. You might as well say: "the moment you attack an enemy, you're not casually playing. If you're working on killing enemies, you're working, not casually playing." Completing achievements is as much a goal in the game as killing enemies. Checking to see which achievement you might want to attempt today is no less casual as deciding where in the world to kill enemies today.

    No it's not, lol. That argument is flawed.

    If you don't know the difference between someone playing basketball in a local park vs. someone playing professional basketball working to compete for the championship, then our conversation will not be very productive.

    Yes, it is, "lol". Your argument isn't just flawed, it's ridiculous beyond belief.

    If you don't know how to create an analogy other than to stretch the very notion of the concept of analogies by comparing the dedication required to play professional basketball to doing an achievement in a videogame, there is little chance that this conversation will produce anything else than mirthful disbelief on my part, which is perhaps of some use to me.

  • Raknar.4735Raknar.4735 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Aaralyna.3104 said:

    @Raknar.4735 said:
    You can call it what you want. ESO tried calling them Trials, it will not change what they are. Calling a dog a cat won't magically turn it into a cat.
    I've raided in the past, I have the achievements, doesn't mean I enjoy instanced content.
    MMORPG = Massive Multiplayer, nothing about instanced 5-10 man content is massive. You're better off playing a lobby-based game like Warframe, MHW etc.
    I'm not playing an MMO to distance myself from the large groups (Worldbosses, WvW, GMs) just to play some low-man lobby content. I'm here for the massive numbers. Zones full of people.

    This preconception that people that dislike that type of content never tried it is a joke. Same thing goes for the "open-world players are single players".

    So you have raided in the past. This means you can do just 1x a strike in your lifetime just for the achievement no problem. I don't enjoy everything either but I do it if I want that specific achievement. Can just do it once and go back to things I do enjoy more no problem. So as I read your statement you have done the strike mission and got the achievements needed for the meta achievement so why complain? If you want something you get something and then do whatever you want to do (tho you wanted to get the achievement as well and by that wanted to do the strike mission at that moment else you would have just skipped the meta achievement). And to be honest, doing most worldbosses does feel like solo playing since there is no communication, no strategy, all for themselves and you don't even have to join any squad.

    I had the Meta achievement on the third day of the release, doesn't mean I can't disagree with Anet's choice of gating it behind instanced content.
    I mean, I see people complaining about open world all the time, because it is too easy for them. I won't tell them to stop complaining, they have the right to do so.
    Telling someone to just "stop complaining" is akin to telling them to "stop caring". "Just enduring it" isn't always the smartest decision.
    A lot of People stopped caring about raids, look how that turned out. Same thing for dungeons.

    To be honest, most instanced content feels like solo playing. The only thing you're doing is a quick "Hi" followed by a "Ty" after clear, add some linking of LI/Leg gear and Killproof, some clarification on mechanics if it goes wrong and that's everything. No socialization.
    I get the same level of communication from random people simply by rezzing them.

    I have fun doing world bosses with other people while chatting, it's your decision if you chat with them or not, but don't expect anyone to talk to you first.

    Edit: The massive amounts of people, even if they don't say anything, makes the place feel alive. Compare it to a cinema or a shopping mall. Many people doing their own thing, yet it feels lively. Going to a market without people would make it feel desolate.

    You have a heart of gold. Don't let them take it from you.
    Remaster confirmed! Umbasa!

  • Alyster.9470Alyster.9470 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." How is this any fun?? why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

  • Aaralyna.3104Aaralyna.3104 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @YtseJam.9784 said:
    I just realized that we need to do Strike Missions in order to complete new map mastery? W.T.F? In 7 years playing this I've never seen something like this. There's a lot of people that don't do raid/strike mission content and shouldn't be forced to do them to complete a map's mastery. This is ridiculous ANET. You really need to make it optional like the previous ones cause not everyone does strike missions. That is content for a small portion of the community. I see what you are doing there and trying to force people to do them, but this is not the way. Make it more attractive so more players can join, but don't make it mandatory for personal progression. Just another failed thought process. So disappointed.

    Hold on there... They added a new mastery point (bounties) and 2 mastery insights in Grothmar with same patch so you may want to check out there again :)

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    For all of those that don't like having to do strike mission achievements for the meta: have you actually done strikes and put as much effort into them as you would have done for any story or open world achievement? I have a suspicion that a lot of those that don't like it probably have never actually done strikes or at least put much effort into it.

    Doesn’t matter. The strike mission requirements should be removed from the completion equation.

    Based on what? That you don't like them? I didn't particularly enjoy grinding events so those should be removed too.

    As I've said numerous times, it's not the strike missions that's the problem, it's the change. Do you remember how the personal story had to be changed from a dungeon to a solo instance because people complained? The same thing happened to me in Rift. THe main story line ended in a raid. I didn't want to raid and it was one of the main things that drove me from that game. I suppose I should be thankful on that count.

    But if you want to raise the bar, in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. It's long been a problem with the nature of open world PvE being so casual in this game. You change the game you lose the playerbase. It's just logic.

    This doesn't follow your complaint. The Achievements doesn't hinder you from experiencing the Main Story Line. I don't know of any Achievement acting like a gate that prevents players from enjoying the Main Story Line. Achievement is something YOU choose to work on, it was never a requirement for the Main Story Line. That's a misrepresentation of the facts. ArenaNet is not doing that.

    THe facts are I don't want to be "encouraged" to raid, because I have no interest in raiding. Now Anet is changing my game for raids. Raids have already impinged my game when Anet has made balance changes around them, but I deal with that. This is my personal end game. You don't have to understand it, but this is basically what I play for. And if I'm going to be playing content I don't enjoy to get something, I'm going to stop playing because I play to have fun. There should be enough achievement so I can CHOOSE what I do, instead of being coraled into something. This is not the game I purchased.

    It has never been the same game we all purchased since Season 1. The only thing you can really expect is that things will change and some changes will not be something we like. Many players I know already left the game due to changes they didn't like. I'm not saying that we should also leave, rather there are other things that we can do in the game instead of focusing on things that we are no longer able to do or achieve.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

    See, heres the thing, im pretty sure those of us posting have tried them and dont like them. I know i dont, ive done them all, i hate strikes, and i hate instanced group content in 90% of the game. I dont mind putting forth effort in content i enjoy. But when im forced into content i dont want to do to get something i want i dont put effort into it as its -already- not enjoyable for me. I do the same with WVW and obtaining GOBS i do little more than flip camps, and run from any player i see.

    Heres my question to you, do you want a player like me who -HATES- the content and doesnt care at all about it, in your group trying to actually do the content? I know i wouldnt want a player like me in my group.

    They should made the meta require 25, and it would have allowed "casuals" like myself who despise the content to not be grouped with players who enjoy it and have the experience ruined by players like me who only want achievements. It also would have allowed players who enjoy strikes to get the vast majority of achievements. It is anets fault for setting a standard of allowing players of -ALL- skill levels to finish the meta without much issue, and then changing it in the 7th almost 8th year of the game.

    ANET didn't hold to a single development policy for 7-8 years. Initially the game was designed to become more challenging and difficult as the story and content further progressed. They kept that policy right up to HoT release where they got ton of backlash by a number of game reviewers who were mostly casual. ANET turned their rudder at that moment, nerfed HoT down, halted the difficulty development throughout Season 3, and PoF and Season 4 were literal jokes when it came to challenging story. Your argument that ANET is suddenly shifting achievements is poorly founded. Just look at LWS 2 achievements. You had CHALLENGE MOTES for final bosses like Shadow of the Dragon. Mordremoth as final story boss of HoT has a CM which is sad because its the last story CM they developed.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:
    If the rewards don't matter then what is the issue? You get to play through the story, you get the usual mission rewards. Achievements are generally for the players who want more, and who want to "achieve" things, its literally in the name. ANET has started realizing that, and the majority of the playerbase doesn't even do achievements so almost no harm done.

    I think you may be underestimating the number of people who play for achievements, as they were anyway. If that number falls off significantly with this change, then Anet will change this going forward. I have a guild full of casuals who pretty much play just to check off boxes. The open world/story stuff used to be their perview. This stuff could have been done without affected the existing system, with less risk that's all.

    People who do achievements are well capable of taking on the Strike. The premise that "Everything that is required to fill the achievements bar has to be something I like" has a rather poor foundation. Like I said, "achievements" exist for a reason, to award players for doing more and to give more effort. Player number and percentage changing because of "harder achievements", which are purely optional, also doesn't sound presuasive nor well founded.

    If I read a series of books and every single book was in English...all the way to this book where suddenly it was in Greek I'd be pissed. I've been doing zone metas now for years, literally years, and this is the first time I've had to do 10 man isntanced content to do them. The problem isn't the achievement. That problem is where that achievement is. I already said you can make a whole category of achievements just for strike missions and I"d have no problem. BUt this? Not the game I bought.

    I sadly don't see the correlation between English and Greek books with whether or not achievements have 10 man instanced content. Again, if an achievement line has content that you don't like, well, then its simply not for you. Its optional like everything else in this game. Learn to be disappointed like most people do :smile:

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Vayne.8563Vayne.8563 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

    See, heres the thing, im pretty sure those of us posting have tried them and dont like them. I know i dont, ive done them all, i hate strikes, and i hate instanced group content in 90% of the game. I dont mind putting forth effort in content i enjoy. But when im forced into content i dont want to do to get something i want i dont put effort into it as its -already- not enjoyable for me. I do the same with WVW and obtaining GOBS i do little more than flip camps, and run from any player i see.

    Heres my question to you, do you want a player like me who -HATES- the content and doesnt care at all about it, in your group trying to actually do the content? I know i wouldnt want a player like me in my group.

    They should made the meta require 25, and it would have allowed "casuals" like myself who despise the content to not be grouped with players who enjoy it and have the experience ruined by players like me who only want achievements. It also would have allowed players who enjoy strikes to get the vast majority of achievements. It is anets fault for setting a standard of allowing players of -ALL- skill levels to finish the meta without much issue, and then changing it in the 7th almost 8th year of the game.

    ANET didn't hold to a single development policy for 7-8 years. Initially the game was designed to become more challenging and difficult as the story and content further progressed. They kept that policy right up to HoT release where they got ton of backlash by a number of game reviewers who were mostly casual. ANET turned their rudder at that moment, nerfed HoT down, halted the difficulty development throughout Season 3, and PoF and Season 4 were literal jokes when it came to challenging story. Your argument that ANET is suddenly shifting achievements is poorly founded. Just look at LWS 2 achievements. You had CHALLENGE MOTES for final bosses like Shadow of the Dragon. Mordremoth as final story boss of HoT has a CM which is sad because its the last story CM they developed.

    Anet nerfed Orr long before they nerfed came out with HoT. They simplified the living world a number of ways. Do you remember how hard the Fire Ele was on release? We'd go there and we'd see dead bodies everywhere. They nerfed it, because it was too hard.

    We've seen a number of things nerfed over time, because that hard concept was affected the game. The last story instance was originally a dungeon. HoT nerfed the TD meta long before they did the nerf to the rest of HOT. And even at launch the open world really wasn't that hard. Nothing I did in the open world felt hard, even Orr. It was annoying to some people with all the CC, or the mod density, but Orr was never hard. Dungeons were harder, it's true, but even dungeons were speed run in minutes by good players. And they were completely optional until the last story dungeon.

    The issue is seperating hard and easy content. My opinion is ANet changes the game at the peril of the game and in this case I think the change is a mistake, particularly if they continue along these lines.

  • Sheader.6827Sheader.6827 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

    See, heres the thing, im pretty sure those of us posting have tried them and dont like them. I know i dont, ive done them all, i hate strikes, and i hate instanced group content in 90% of the game. I dont mind putting forth effort in content i enjoy. But when im forced into content i dont want to do to get something i want i dont put effort into it as its -already- not enjoyable for me. I do the same with WVW and obtaining GOBS i do little more than flip camps, and run from any player i see.

    Heres my question to you, do you want a player like me who -HATES- the content and doesnt care at all about it, in your group trying to actually do the content? I know i wouldnt want a player like me in my group.

    They should made the meta require 25, and it would have allowed "casuals" like myself who despise the content to not be grouped with players who enjoy it and have the experience ruined by players like me who only want achievements. It also would have allowed players who enjoy strikes to get the vast majority of achievements. It is anets fault for setting a standard of allowing players of -ALL- skill levels to finish the meta without much issue, and then changing it in the 7th almost 8th year of the game.

    ANET didn't hold to a single development policy for 7-8 years. Initially the game was designed to become more challenging and difficult as the story and content further progressed. They kept that policy right up to HoT release where they got ton of backlash by a number of game reviewers who were mostly casual. ANET turned their rudder at that moment, nerfed HoT down, halted the difficulty development throughout Season 3, and PoF and Season 4 were literal jokes when it came to challenging story. Your argument that ANET is suddenly shifting achievements is poorly founded. Just look at LWS 2 achievements. You had CHALLENGE MOTES for final bosses like Shadow of the Dragon. Mordremoth as final story boss of HoT has a CM which is sad because its the last story CM they developed.

    Those challenge motes where -NOT- 10 man instanced content, if they where i probably wouldnt have them done to this day, actually probably wouldnt be playing this game if they had been. Thats what i have issues with. I dont have issues with hard or challenging content given i have all the metas up to now, i have issues with being forced into 10 man content. I did Migraine with 3 people, im not a terribad player like you seem to think people who hate strikes are. This whole: "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" idea you and others have needs to stop,

    Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT, its a shame they had to learn that the hard way when they listened to the much much smaller vocal hardcore crowd they had.

    I never said nor claimed that "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" so don't be a sore thumb and put words in my mouth, ok? "Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT", I said "reviewers" and they were not your average GW2 playerbase back then, yet ANET still went hunting after them.

    If it were done when ’tis done, then ’twere well it were done quickly. That but this blow might be the be-all and the end-all—here.
    Macbeth Act 1, scene 7

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

    See, heres the thing, im pretty sure those of us posting have tried them and dont like them. I know i dont, ive done them all, i hate strikes, and i hate instanced group content in 90% of the game. I dont mind putting forth effort in content i enjoy. But when im forced into content i dont want to do to get something i want i dont put effort into it as its -already- not enjoyable for me. I do the same with WVW and obtaining GOBS i do little more than flip camps, and run from any player i see.

    Heres my question to you, do you want a player like me who -HATES- the content and doesnt care at all about it, in your group trying to actually do the content? I know i wouldnt want a player like me in my group.

    They should made the meta require 25, and it would have allowed "casuals" like myself who despise the content to not be grouped with players who enjoy it and have the experience ruined by players like me who only want achievements. It also would have allowed players who enjoy strikes to get the vast majority of achievements. It is anets fault for setting a standard of allowing players of -ALL- skill levels to finish the meta without much issue, and then changing it in the 7th almost 8th year of the game.

    ANET didn't hold to a single development policy for 7-8 years. Initially the game was designed to become more challenging and difficult as the story and content further progressed. They kept that policy right up to HoT release where they got ton of backlash by a number of game reviewers who were mostly casual. ANET turned their rudder at that moment, nerfed HoT down, halted the difficulty development throughout Season 3, and PoF and Season 4 were literal jokes when it came to challenging story. Your argument that ANET is suddenly shifting achievements is poorly founded. Just look at LWS 2 achievements. You had CHALLENGE MOTES for final bosses like Shadow of the Dragon. Mordremoth as final story boss of HoT has a CM which is sad because its the last story CM they developed.

    Those challenge motes where -NOT- 10 man instanced content, if they where i probably wouldnt have them done to this day, actually probably wouldnt be playing this game if they had been. Thats what i have issues with. I dont have issues with hard or challenging content given i have all the metas up to now, i have issues with being forced into 10 man content. I did Migraine with 3 people, im not a terribad player like you seem to think people who hate strikes are. This whole: "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" idea you and others have needs to stop,

    Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT, its a shame they had to learn that the hard way when they listened to the much much smaller vocal hardcore crowd they had.

    I never said nor claimed that "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" so don't be a sore thumb and put words in my mouth, ok? "Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT", I said "reviewers" and they were not your average GW2 playerbase back then, yet ANET still went hunting after them.

    Oh i disagree given how -hard- anet changed their direction after HOT. Even prior to HOT they where nerfing or changing content to make it easier due to feedback from players. Sure we dont have true numbers, only ANET has those. But for literal years after HOT they kept the game surprisingly easy compared to Pre release(where all the nerfs where done) HOT.

    also, that comment wasnt just aimed at you, it was for everyone who read that post. Hence the "Others" wording.

    Amana Silentchild; My Main
    Ember Wandertooth; The Kingslayer, Kianda Redpaw; The Blazing Light
    Why GW is Called Guildwars

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Vayne at this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and dragging this thread on into eternity. We get your point. Your analogy are poor ones. Please stop like you stopped playing the map because oh ya something you didn't want to do was on the list so you must stop playing every other aspect on that map. It doesn't make sense. Sometimes they give you 18/18 you gotta do all 18 or you can't get meta then you chose do I go out of my comfort zone or not. You chose not and to not even do stuff in your confort zone as a protest. And the main reason why the game you bought never required 10 man content in the meta b4 is a simple there was no 10 man content before so the game you bought changed and it's hard to feel sorry for you when you reply to every single person who differs in opinion

    I'm simpy having a conversation with people who don't seem to understand my point, or who are misrepresenting it. One guys says people are scared of instanced content, but I"m not scared of it, I dislike it. What are forums for if not to have these conversations? I'm really not arguing for the sake of arguing, nor am I alone in my opinon of this. Anyone reading the thread can see this.

    Your feedback is entirely valid even if I disagree it being a problem. Your pushing that this could risk the end of the game or at least "put it in peril" however is enormous hyperbole. (yes I know most of us are guilty of it at some point) By all means discuss how you are unhappy with the direction based on your experience, but second guessing the game going into decline over a meta achievement and then labouring the same point multiple times is hurting your argument. The game has survived vastly bigger changes than adding in a couple of instances to a meta achievement.

    It is after all....just a meta achievement. It isn't a big enough deal to hurt the game long term, especially as this isn't a new thing.

    So if you want to have a discussion about the pros and cons of having the strikes a part of a meta, then that's fine. But, the hyperbole is not needed, especially we know full well from experience that Anet will internally ignore such hyperbolic statements and always have done when/if reading feedback.

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Swagger.1459 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    For all of those that don't like having to do strike mission achievements for the meta: have you actually done strikes and put as much effort into them as you would have done for any story or open world achievement? I have a suspicion that a lot of those that don't like it probably have never actually done strikes or at least put much effort into it.

    Doesn’t matter. The strike mission requirements should be removed from the completion equation.

    Based on what? That you don't like them? I didn't particularly enjoy grinding events so those should be removed too.

    As I've said numerous times, it's not the strike missions that's the problem, it's the change. Do you remember how the personal story had to be changed from a dungeon to a solo instance because people complained? The same thing happened to me in Rift. THe main story line ended in a raid. I didn't want to raid and it was one of the main things that drove me from that game. I suppose I should be thankful on that count.

    But if you want to raise the bar, in my opinion, this isn't the way to do it. It's long been a problem with the nature of open world PvE being so casual in this game. You change the game you lose the playerbase. It's just logic.

    This doesn't follow your complaint. The Achievements doesn't hinder you from experiencing the Main Story Line. I don't know of any Achievement acting like a gate that prevents players from enjoying the Main Story Line. Achievement is something YOU choose to work on, it was never a requirement for the Main Story Line. That's a misrepresentation of the facts. ArenaNet is not doing that.

    THe facts are I don't want to be "encouraged" to raid, because I have no interest in raiding. Now Anet is changing my game for raids. Raids have already impinged my game when Anet has made balance changes around them, but I deal with that. This is my personal end game. You don't have to understand it, but this is basically what I play for. And if I'm going to be playing content I don't enjoy to get something, I'm going to stop playing because I play to have fun. There should be enough achievement so I can CHOOSE what I do, instead of being coraled into something. This is not the game I purchased.

    It has never been the same game we all purchased since Season 1. The only thing you can really expect is that things will change and some changes will not be something we like. Many players I know already left the game due to changes they didn't like. I'm not saying that we should also leave, rather there are other things that we can do in the game instead of focusing on things that we are no longer able to do or achieve.

    Yep it's never been the same game we purchased since season 1. YOu're right. That means when changes happen, if no one says anything and hte future comes and they're unhappy, it's their own fault for not speaking up.. I don't like this direction and if the game continues in this direction....strikes getting harder, strikes being requires for metas, well, I'm not going to get forced into preparing for raids I have no interest in playing.

    Sure the game is always changing. And since I've liked most of the changes, the vast majority, I've stayed. But I spend less money in the cash shop now than I ever did, because the game is not 100% my game as it once was. Every time a change is made that doesn't align with what I think a game should be, it takes me a bit further from where I started, the more chance there is I'm going to stop playing. The question is how many people are standing in the same place I am.

    How will this change benefit the game, compared to how many people are angry, or annoyed or just feeling meh about it. 1% of the population is affected, I don't have a leg to stand on...but I don't think that's the case. Anet will read the comments, look at how and what people are playing and they'll make a decision based on metrics. What I'm doing is expression my displeasure with the direction of something before it gets out of hand.

    Now you're giving them too much credit. Seeing that a very small portion of the population wants raid, I doubt they follow any kind of metrics. What they are doing is what they want or what they think the players want. There's no such metrics. Take the upcoming Patch for example, they are posting it to show us what they want to do. And despite the feedback, they will launch that patch with little to no change.

    As for spending; players will spend money to buy gems because they want something from the shop with no regards to whether the game is enjoyable to play or not. So their revenue is not an indication of whether the game is enjoyable to play or not.

    They way I see it; play the content, or play other content, or don't play at all. IMO, just play other content -- Tyria is huge.

    In the beginning...there was Tarnished Coast...

  • @Dante.1763 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Bosanac.3658 said:

    @Dante.1763 said:

    @Alyster.9470 said:
    I dont understand why most people are so afraid of instanced content, do you all want to get everything done by putting 0 effort? "kill this 10 times go there 5 times or press F here and there." why not try them out a few times and see if you like them or not, maybe you will love them or hate. If you hate just put VERY LITTLE EFFORT, to get the achievement and never go there again. Most of the strike achis are really easy and doable by everyone. I dont know why people have 0 trust in themselves or think that they will get personally attacked by "toxic" people. I do them daily with people from various skill levels, some do 1-3k dps some die, or some do very good, but I have never encountered someone attacking the other or offending them by talking about their skill level. This is honestly anets fault to add some sort of thing too late as people got used to getting everything done by doing very very simple tasks and putting 0 effort.

    See, heres the thing, im pretty sure those of us posting have tried them and dont like them. I know i dont, ive done them all, i hate strikes, and i hate instanced group content in 90% of the game. I dont mind putting forth effort in content i enjoy. But when im forced into content i dont want to do to get something i want i dont put effort into it as its -already- not enjoyable for me. I do the same with WVW and obtaining GOBS i do little more than flip camps, and run from any player i see.

    Heres my question to you, do you want a player like me who -HATES- the content and doesnt care at all about it, in your group trying to actually do the content? I know i wouldnt want a player like me in my group.

    They should made the meta require 25, and it would have allowed "casuals" like myself who despise the content to not be grouped with players who enjoy it and have the experience ruined by players like me who only want achievements. It also would have allowed players who enjoy strikes to get the vast majority of achievements. It is anets fault for setting a standard of allowing players of -ALL- skill levels to finish the meta without much issue, and then changing it in the 7th almost 8th year of the game.

    ANET didn't hold to a single development policy for 7-8 years. Initially the game was designed to become more challenging and difficult as the story and content further progressed. They kept that policy right up to HoT release where they got ton of backlash by a number of game reviewers who were mostly casual. ANET turned their rudder at that moment, nerfed HoT down, halted the difficulty development throughout Season 3, and PoF and Season 4 were literal jokes when it came to challenging story. Your argument that ANET is suddenly shifting achievements is poorly founded. Just look at LWS 2 achievements. You had CHALLENGE MOTES for final bosses like Shadow of the Dragon. Mordremoth as final story boss of HoT has a CM which is sad because its the last story CM they developed.

    Those challenge motes where -NOT- 10 man instanced content, if they where i probably wouldnt have them done to this day, actually probably wouldnt be playing this game if they had been. Thats what i have issues with. I dont have issues with hard or challenging content given i have all the metas up to now, i have issues with being forced into 10 man content. I did Migraine with 3 people, im not a terribad player like you seem to think people who hate strikes are. This whole: "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" idea you and others have needs to stop,

    Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT, its a shame they had to learn that the hard way when they listened to the much much smaller vocal hardcore crowd they had.

    I never said nor claimed that "Anyone who doesnt like strikes must suck at the game" so don't be a sore thumb and put words in my mouth, ok? "Yes anet found out that the large portion of their audience was Casual players with HOT", I said "reviewers" and they were not your average GW2 playerbase back then, yet ANET still went hunting after them.

    Oh i disagree given how -hard- anet changed their direction after HOT. Even prior to HOT they where nerfing or changing content to make it easier due to feedback from players. Sure we dont have true numbers, only ANET has those. But for literal years after HOT they kept the game surprisingly easy compared to Pre release(where all the nerfs where done) HOT.

    also, that comment wasnt just aimed at you, it was for everyone who read that post. Hence the "Others" wording.

    You are assuming they knew how they were changing the difficulty. They added crits to objects and increased the condi cap. They didn't know how that would effect the world bosses. In less than a week they doubled all the bosses health.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Randulf.7614 said:

    @Vayne.8563 said:

    @Jayden Reese.9542 said:
    Vayne at this point you are just arguing for the sake of arguing and dragging this thread on into eternity. We get your point. Your analogy are poor ones. Please stop like you stopped playing the map because oh ya something you didn't want to do was on the list so you must stop playing every other aspect on that map. It doesn't make sense. Sometimes they give you 18/18 you gotta do all 18 or you can't get meta then you chose do I go out of my comfort zone or not. You chose not and to not even do stuff in your confort zone as a protest. And the main reason why the game you bought never required 10 man content in the meta b4 is a simple there was no 10 man content before so the game you bought changed and it's hard to feel sorry for you when you reply to every single person who differs in opinion

    I'm simpy having a conversation with people who don't seem to understand my point, or who are misrepresenting it. One guys says people are scared of instanced content, but I"m not scared of it, I dislike it. What are forums for if not to have these conversations? I'm really not arguing for the sake of arguing, nor am I alone in my opinon of this. Anyone reading the thread can see this.

    Your feedback is entirely valid even if I disagree it being a problem. Your pushing that this could risk the end of the game or at least "put it in peril" however is enormous hyperbole. (yes I know most of us are guilty of it at some point) By all means discuss how you are unhappy with the direction based on your experience, but second guessing the game going into decline over a meta achievement and then labouring the same point multiple times is hurting your argument. The game has survived vastly bigger changes than adding in a couple of instances to a meta achievement.

    It is after all....just a meta achievement. It isn't a big enough deal to hurt the game long term, especially as this isn't a new thing.

    So if you want to have a discussion about the pros and cons of having the strikes a part of a meta, then that's fine. But, the hyperbole is not needed, especially we know full well from experience that Anet will internally ignore such hyperbolic statements and always have done when/if reading feedback.

    I think more people play for those meta achievemnts by percentage than raid. I could be wrong, but I suspect that's the case. It might be a storm in a teacup. But I definitely can say how it affects me and some others in my guild who are pretty annoyed as well. Whether that translates to any kind of significant percentage of the player base, I guess we'll find out.

    I'm certain more people play for meta achievements than raids. I very doubt most of those will care about the addition of strikes (and lets be clear, these are not raids as they are designed for pugs and every day players in some cases) and an insignificant number would likely quit the game because of it.

    It'll annoy a few people which is why I don't out of hand dismiss the feedback. But it's no more than a personal preference situation rather than a potential disaster for the game. So this is exclusively how it affects you alone (edit) in terms of your feedback and not the wider playerbase

    What sleep is here? What dreams there are in the unctuous coiling of the snakes mortal shuffling. weapon in my hand. My hand the arcing deathblow at the end of all things. The horror. The horror. I embrace it. . .

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭

    A potential way to address this type of issue, given my earlier thought process of how strikes need to succeed, would be to have a time limited phase post Living World release where meta LW achievements require the current strike be played (in order to complete the meta LW achievement), ideally with some simple achievements in that strike, then add further achievements down the road.

    We are seeing similar things happening now with minor new content, and achievements, getting injected into old maps (just this LW release we saw Grothmar get some new achievements) and even a complete expansion of a map.

    This could bridge the possibility to get the meta achievement for players who absolutely do not want to play the strikes, keep the maps a tad more relevant by having more players return, and encourage players to try out strikes if so inclined.

    Ideally this would have to be noted in game, we have had hidden achievements in the past. Not sure if this would help the issue or simply make players complain again, but it is something to think about (if this approach is not even in the cards already, given the process of returning to previous maps this Saga).

  • Zok.4956Zok.4956 Member ✭✭✭

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What if: a main part of the revenue of the game was/is coming from the hardcore dedicated fraction of the player base?

    Not saying this is or was the case, though I have stated that I personally believe that players that are more invested are more likely to spend money (and no, I'm not saying only hardcore players can be invested), but what if losing the hardcore crowd actually has a significant impact on this games financial performance? What if aiming all resources at only casual players results in a far worse financial performance, leading into even less resources being available for the game?

    Maybe you should be more specific and not write such general terms like "hardcore dedicated fraction" or "players that are more invested" because these could mean totally different groups of players for different persons.

    But if you mean with that for example players that play/want challenging10-man-instanced content, I can give you an answer according to raids (that exist for some time now in the game. Strike missions are too new, to draw conclusions):

    Experienced raiders, that are doing raids regularly, have a quit good and steady income of gold and have also quite easy and cheap access to ascended gear, they can buy gems with gold and have less need to buy gems with real money than several other players. Raiders were the most ones that used ArcDPS and its templates a lot and have voiced also a lot about their denial of Anets monetized and worse version of templates/loadouts. And raiders are (according to Anet) a very small part of the GW2 player population (so few at the moment, that it is financially not viable, to invest in creating more raids). And usually, the "whales" (the players that spent a lot of real money for the game) are usually not the ones that earn the most "gold-per-hour/week" in the game.

    So I doubt that raiders are a significant revenue stream for Anet.

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  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What if: a main part of the revenue of the game was/is coming from the hardcore dedicated fraction of the player base?

    Not saying this is or was the case, though I have stated that I personally believe that players that are more invested are more likely to spend money (and no, I'm not saying only hardcore players can be invested), but what if losing the hardcore crowd actually has a significant impact on this games financial performance? What if aiming all resources at only casual players results in a far worse financial performance, leading into even less resources being available for the game?

    Maybe you should be more specific and not write such general terms like "hardcore dedicated fraction" or "players that are more invested" because these could mean totally different groups of players for different persons.

    Please don't take my post out of context or at least try to keep it in context. The part you quoted was relating to a thread in the dungeon forum and relating to raids specifically. I explicitly remarked about that and did alter the meaning of this quote to this current thread.

    You are literally responding to a quote out of context, from a different thread, without taking into account the adjustments made for this topic.

    @Zok.4956 said:
    But if you mean with that for example players that play/want challenging10-man-instanced content, I can give you an answer according to raids (that exist for some time now in the game. Strike missions are too new, to draw conclusions):

    Experienced raiders, that are doing raids regularly, have a quit good and steady income of gold and have also quite easy and cheap access to ascended gear, they can buy gems with gold and have less need to buy gems with real money than several other players. Raiders were the most ones that used ArcDPS and its templates a lot and have voiced also a lot about their denial of Anets monetized and worse version of templates/loadouts. And raiders are (according to Anet) a very small part of the GW2 player population (so few at the moment, that it is financially not viable, to invest in creating more raids). And usually, the "whales" (the players that spent a lot of real money for the game) are usually not the ones that earn the most "gold-per-hour/week" in the game.

    So I doubt that raiders are a significant revenue stream for Anet.

    and yet, nearly all raiders I know, have been spending money regularly on this game, myself included. That's why I specifically mentioned what I personally perceive to be one of the biggest factors for spending money: players being invested with the game and I do not differentiate between casual or hardcore players (and I did mention in which context these 2 terms are used).

    So no, I disagree that more invested players will not spend money on items only because they might have the means to circumvent this with gold to gem exchanges. Most of us have lives and can make a simple cost benefit analysis if spending the last 10-12 hours of play on 800 gems is worth more to us than paying for something if we have spare income.

    Also I was posing the post literally as a thought experiment. You can willfully work off of your assumption that:" well those players have enough gold, they aren't spending money". To which I would only answer or ask: sure, but what if you are wrong?

    EDIT:
    Also your perception and understanding of whales is quite incorrect. Players being whales has seldom to do with how much gold/currency they acquire in a game. The most defining aspect is usually how invested they are and how much spare income they can spend. Applying rational such as: they have enough wealth so they will not spend more money, seldom applies due to a multitude of factors (some of which are relating to addiction and addiction like tendencies, or impulsive behavior). The accumulation of wealth in a game is very seldom an issue for whales to not spend more money, that would literally make them dolphins.

  • Dante.1763Dante.1763 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Zok.4956 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    What if: a main part of the revenue of the game was/is coming from the hardcore dedicated fraction of the player base?

    Not saying this is or was the case, though I have stated that I personally believe that players that are more invested are more likely to spend money (and no, I'm not saying only hardcore players can be invested), but what if losing the hardcore crowd actually has a significant impact on this games financial performance? What if aiming all resources at only casual players results in a far worse financial performance, leading into even less resources being available for the game?

    Maybe you should be more specific and not write such general terms like "hardcore dedicated fraction" or "players that are more invested" because these could mean totally different groups of players for different persons.

    Please don't take my post out of context or at least try to keep it in context. The part you quoted was relating to a thread in the dungeon forum and relating to raids specifically. I explicitly remarked about that and did alter the meaning of this quote to this current thread.

    You are literally responding to a quote out of context, from a different thread, without taking into account the adjustments made for this topic.

    @Zok.4956 said:
    But if you mean with that for example players that play/want challenging10-man-instanced content, I can give you an answer according to raids (that exist for some time now in the game. Strike missions are too new, to draw conclusions):

    Experienced raiders, that are doing raids regularly, have a quit good and steady income of gold and have also quite easy and cheap access to ascended gear, they can buy gems with gold and have less need to buy gems with real money than several other players. Raiders were the most ones that used ArcDPS and its templates a lot and have voiced also a lot about their denial of Anets monetized and worse version of templates/loadouts. And raiders are (according to Anet) a very small part of the GW2 player population (so few at the moment, that it is financially not viable, to invest in creating more raids). And usually, the "whales" (the players that spent a lot of real money for the game) are usually not the ones that earn the most "gold-per-hour/week" in the game.

    So I doubt that raiders are a significant revenue stream for Anet.

    and yet, nearly all raiders I know, have been spending money regularly on this game, myself included. That's why I specifically mentioned what I personally perceive to be one of the biggest factors for spending money: players being invested with the game and I do not differentiate between casual or hardcore players (and I did mention in which context these 2 terms are used).

    So no, I disagree that more invested players will not spend money on items only because they might have the means to circumvent this with gold to gem exchanges. Most of us have lives and can make a simple cost benefit analysis if spending the last 10-12 hours of play on 800 gems is worth more to us than paying for something if we have spare income.

    Also I was posing the post literally as a thought experiment. You can willfully work off of your assumption that:" well those players have enough gold, they aren't spending money". To which I would only answer or ask: sure, but what if you are wrong?

    I know its not more then personal experience, but i probably spend far more money on this game than most people, and im on the opposite side i think that you are when it comes to the topic of the thread.

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    A potential way to address this type of issue, given my earlier thought process of how strikes need to succeed, would be to have a time limited phase post Living World release where meta LW achievements require the current strike be played (in order to complete the meta LW achievement), ideally with some simple achievements in that strike, then add further achievements down the road.

    We are seeing similar things happening now with minor new content, and achievements, getting injected into old maps (just this LW release we saw Grothmar get some new achievements) and even a complete expansion of a map.

    This would be neat, im not sure if the new achievements they added into Grothmar counted for the meta however?

    This could bridge the possibility to get the meta achievement for players who absolutely do not want to play the strikes, keep the maps a tad more relevant by having more players return, and encourage players to try out strikes if so inclined.

    This i think would be a neat idea. Would keep the old maps relevant and played due to the new achievements and allow for more ways to obtain the meta.

    Ideally this would have to be noted in game, we have had hidden achievements in the past. Not sure if this would help the issue or simply make players complain again, but it is something to think about (if this approach is not even in the cards already, given the process of returning to previous maps this Saga).

    If the hidden achievements counted(they do not) for this saga or well if -all- the achievements counted for the meta nobody would be posting. You could obtain it by completing all the map achievements.

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