Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Balance Update Update - WvW


Cal Cohen.2358

Recommended Posts

dear new balance team,i come back from break like 3 month, read this and i am spechless.

i mean in roaming (1vs1 / small scale) there are a lot builds for monkys, right? or let's say for people with handycap.lets pick one (there are a lot of other builds), the condi mirage build. this perma doge build with "deceptiv evasion" and "infinite horizon". the only thing you need to do is to doge. you can't be hit while doging and deal damage while doing it. this is a top tier pvp build and it works even better in wvw because of the endu-reg food. you really can perma doge.for human with handycap perfect. they struggel in real life, but they can have a great time in gw2. you give them love. its ok.

otherwise this is the reason why gw2 is not competitive and dont play any role in e-sports, right?

but WHY??? you touch the actually 5er roaming (i mean, ok, its already death), 15 havoc groups and the zerg meta. its was great.you deal damge -> you heal or negate damage with barrier/protection/rite of the great dwarfyou cc -> give stabi or condi cleanyou give boon -> you coruppt boonetc... it was good

now you reduce everything. worst thing is the damage reduce overall. it makes it harder to win fights when you are outnumbered.this is another mass > skill patch! i was looking for something like remove downstate, remove ae cap in wvw. that would be great.

but the best thing was that every class (beside ranger and thief (blob fights) have a place in the actually meta, right? they have one or more builds that are viable.

this will change. range damage (rev, scourge, ele) deleted.we are looking to a melee ball meta (high armor/hp classes). you can't break push any more or not as good as you can now.

in that melee ball meta will be: support guard / burn guard (only nerfed core-burn,LOL), paladin warrior (support/damage), reaper and thats it.no need of other class, if you really want to try hard.

classes like ele got complete deleted.

its the only low hp / low armor armor class. you complete stomped the defense and damage.

here some explain;Twist of Fate: got doubel nerfed:

Twist of Fate: Increased ammo recharge from 40 seconds to 75 secondsBolstered Elements: This trait now grants barrier instead of stability when using a stance skill

but, hey, we got Laher: big joke!!!

arcane: complete stoped. there are 12 traits (with the basics traits) and 9 traits will be nerfed. i saw complete reworking traits lines, but never a stomp like this.

and one thing you really need to explain: "rite of the great dwarf" (elite) untouched, "versed in stone" untouched!!!

but you nerf ele core defense:Arcane Shield: Increased cooldown from 40 seconds to 45 secondsFinal Shielding: Increased cooldown from 90 seconds to 300 secondsElemental Surge: Reduced immobilize duration from 2 seconds to 1 second

tripel nerf.

i mean you forgot it. right? otherwise there is no apologize. its like strongest defense skill and its passiv is untouched and the worst getting nerfed (on lowhp/lowarmor).

there are a lot of damage nerf like other classes also have too, but one is funny and the other delete ele.

Ice Spike:Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.91. Adjusted vulnerability duration from 5 stacks for 10 seconds to 12 stacks for 6 seconds.Increased cooldown from 6 seconds to 8 seconds!!!

i mean the worst ae spell in this game (or is eruption more worse?),3/4 cast time and after that it needs 3 or 4 sek. till it hit the ground?,this spell really need higher cooldown :DDD

Meteor Shower: Reduced power coefficient from 1.6 to 1.1

this is big!!!

this is not fair, if you see that wells nearly untouchedWell of Corruption: Reduced pulse power coefficient from 0.5 to 0.45Well of Suffering: Reduced pulse power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.9

attention: fun fact!!!

i have 17k hp at my weaver build. if i drop a meteor into a zerg (wich is really the one and only real damage source), im half hp. but its ok, i also deal damage.if this go live -> you get more damage back than you deal.retaliation is untouched!!!

this patch is not a step forward into the future, its a step back into the past to melee mono blobs.

kein applaus für scheiße

p.s. sorry for my bad english.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 103
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I have to agree no one can seriously think thief perma stealthing is a thing because they can't avoid zergs,that's just silly.Perma stealth exist on thieves because it's this games stealth rogue class just as it exists on the rogues of other mmo's, that's thieves excuse to why it's a thing :)

Except most other mmo's don't have perma stealth (this isn't even the first time it's happened to this class in this game, they can't seem to learn from mistakes), and handle stealth balance in a much more reasonable way with tells, limitations on resources for use, and on initiate and disengage situations, not entirely built fully into combat with damage and support like this game, with little to no counters to start from the beginning. It's taken them years to slowly implement a few counters with reveals and then they go and counter that away with deadeye, typical anet fix to add another layer on another layer instead of fixing under layers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@XenesisII.1540 said:

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I have to agree no one can seriously think thief perma stealthing is a thing because they can't avoid zergs,that's just silly.Perma stealth exist on thieves because it's this games stealth rogue class just as it exists on the rogues of other mmo's, that's thieves excuse to why it's a thing :)

Except most other mmo's don't have perma stealth (this isn't even the first time it's happened to this class in this game, they can't seem to learn from mistakes), and handle stealth balance in a much more reasonable way with tells, limitations on resources for use, and on initiate and disengage situations, not entirely built fully into combat with damage and support like this game, with little to no counters to start from the beginning. It's taken them years to slowly implement a few counters with reveals and then they go and counter that away with deadeye, typical anet fix to add another layer on another layer instead of fixing under layers.

But they do? And easier to maintain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

lastly, winds of disenchantment. this skill needs a buff. a big one. it looks strong, but considering you have to blow 2 cds to even think about using it, is wrong. it says its a 5 sec channel, its actually a 10 sec channel. lets fix this. this is what I imagine: 60 sec cd, 5 target, 5 sec duration, 5 sec block. yes that's right, add a block. there are plenty of unblockables out there that will counter this, and it might actually see some use in pvp or even roaming.

This is arguably the single most impactful skill in the game and you want a buff? One of the few ways to even counter it is to corrupt the warrior and you want to take that away? Sorry but this is a good example of why Anet shouldn't just listen to anyone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@SWI.4127 said:

lastly, winds of disenchantment. this skill needs a buff. a big one. it looks strong, but considering you have to blow 2 cds to even think about using it, is wrong. it says its a 5 sec channel, its actually a 10 sec channel. lets fix this. this is what I imagine: 60 sec cd, 5 target, 5 sec duration, 5 sec block. yes that's right, add a block. there are plenty of unblockables out there that will counter this, and it might actually see some use in pvp or even roaming.

This is arguably the single most impactful skill in the game and you want a buff? One of the few ways to even counter it is to corrupt the warrior and you want to take that away? Sorry but this is a good example of why Anet shouldn't just listen to anyone.

It only seems so impactful due to the incredibly ridiculous boon and corrupt spam that zergs has become resulting in such a skill as wings being powerfull and thank god for it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@SWI.4127 said:This is arguably the single most impactful skill in the game and you want a buff? One of the few ways to even counter it is to corrupt the warrior and you want to take that away? Sorry but this is a good example of why Anet shouldn't just listen to anyone.

I want it to be usable and not a suicide button. nothing is being taken away lol since realistically the only way this is stopped currently in practice is swipe or corrupt boon. maybe just the duration fix would make this skill less horrid. cd reduct would be nice too since the actual duration is getting cut in half.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

i cant believe i felt like logging in to respond to this ridiculous "balancing" attempt with the disclaimer of it not being iterated much (or at all). anet devs.... plz play wvw - roaming, zvz and gvg before u "plan" out ur balances. clearly some of u devs log in and flip a camp and do ur "dailies" and log. you anet devs are way out of touch of anything wvw. just stop breaking more of whats broken if u have no clue or worse.. taken cues from that one dev who does a bit of silly in wvw and is the go-to expert for all things wvw in ur offices.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Amelie De Germania.2385" said:

  • delete stonemist and build an arena or anything like that or delete it to be able to go T3

I have suggested similar in the past. Players fed up with "big castle" fights and some servers never move from it during the week fighting them.Remove SMC, replace with an Arena. Guild that holds the new Arena, Tier 1: GvG, max 10 players. Tier 2: GvG, Max 20 players. Tier 3: Guild/Server rewarded small buff of some sorts, GvG/Free for all, max 50 players.Tiered up depending on how many fights for that Guild/server won.Rewarded like the old Golden Dolyak buff for the week/duration it is T3

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@pure dead brilliant.4073 said:

@"Amelie De Germania.2385" said:
  • delete stonemist and build an arena or anything like that or delete it to be able to go T3

I have suggested similar in the past. Players fed up with "big castle" fights and some servers never move from it during the week fighting them.Remove SMC, replace with an Arena. Guild that holds the new Arena, Tier 1: GvG, max 10 players. Tier 2: GvG, Max 20 players. Tier 3: Guild/Server rewarded small buff of some sorts, GvG/Free for all, max 50 players.Tiered up depending on how many fights for that Guild/server won.Rewarded like the old Golden Dolyak buff for the week/duration it is T3

Here's a better idea. If you're fed up with SMC, go to the other 3 maps available without it.Or remove bloodlust ruins and replace them with arenas, where the small handful of broken down gvg guilds can go gvg on top of the 4 other arena's they don't bother to use.You don't remove popular things from the game, you improve things that are not used often.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Amelie De Germania.2385" said:the whole wvw-mechanic has to get an turnaround so that the mode will be playable again

Agreed, you've hit the nail on the head! :)

To quote Elon Musk during an interview, "issues should be deconstructed to their raw fundamentals" before implementation, in WvW's case, the patch is good in that there's acknowledgement towards the game-mode's issues, however, when 50 new players clash with 10 veteran players, would the math still leans towards the 50 players post-patch? Could it be that perhaps macro factors such as player numbers and game mechanics are the core issues? Would nudging 600+ objects (time/money invested with an already understaffed team) really make a difference in the long run?

There's fundamental design questions to ask on paper before coding:

  1. A player tried to solo capture a camp, killed by a group of 50 with speedy mobility, what's next? Is it due to the duration imbalance to capture a camp vs. duration for 50 people to reach the camp?
  2. A team of 5 using a solid team build tried to capture a tower, killed by a speedy group of 50, what's next? Do they get extra-points/rewards for effort?
  3. Group of 10, held a tower against a group of 50 for 10 minutes, 20 minutes, 1 hour? But still lost, extra points or perks? No? Would they hold the tower again next time?
  4. New player enters WvW 1st time, looks for a party to join, party/squad window always empty, problem?
  5. New player enters WvW, runs out of spawn, killed by a 3-4 stealth campers, problem?
  6. New player enters WvW, no commanders, night time, problem?
  7. Edge of the Mists resets the match every 3 hours, something there already working from the original engineers?
  8. Edge of the Mists stripped of rewards and leveling, now a ghost town, problem? Why?
  9. What if you encouraged 5 man parties (double points from capture) or gave players a reason/reward to work together in small groups instead of just zergs? Compared to nudging math for 600+ objects, doable? feasible?
  10. Why not use Edge of the Mists (weekend even with bonus x2 rewards) as a start point to test this patch? Generate some raw user sample data before patching across all other maps? Faster? Possible?

And to use an analogy towards what Zimmerman mentioned about "Chess" in the book 'Rules of Play', if you are sharing an Macro environment between multiple players in games such as Chess, or even the Japanese game "Go", the underlying rules of "start" and "finish" + goals and objectives should be as fair and clear as possible. This is something missing in the current WvW, remnants of this design philosophy can still be found in GW1 Alliance battles + GW2's Edge of the Mists map (before the rewards nerf when it 1st launched): Player numbers (due to instancing) were fair, match resets were present, the focus for both were capturing objectives instead of just zergs, and GW1 Alliance battles punished zerging in terms of points, yet did not restrict the behavior (there was always an give and take)

Additional classic games with great designs (balanced give and take):

  1. GW1 Factions: Alliance Battles - balanced design, capture point + team building focused, 3 teams of 4 players on each side, timer resets, balanced builds etc.
  2. Team Fortress: specific class roles (medic, tank, scout, engineer, spy - they had stealth mechanics too), team work were encouraged, balanced dynamics in combat, also a team point capture system
  3. Battlefield: their commander system and squad structure was well designed, did not have commanders compete for power, also capture points focused
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh,thank god i stopped playing this game. Nerfing thieves and their stealth uptime ? Kick out the last few roamers from wvw so the blobs can stay happy... FFing joke. The Only reason the few people running thieves or DE with more stealth uptime is to get away from those 20 man " Really Well Organized And Amazing Player"  ( Better ? ) groups that feel the need to chase you allover the map when you Arent on a stealth spec. To avoid annoyance and frustration because of the endless chasing, people adapt and run on a stealth spec to minimalize this from happening where they can Choose to bail from these situations without being chased forever by these groups.The only thief you see is solo roaming or roaming in a small group and it's usually players that Know how to play picking out people from big groups that get annoyed by the thieves doing it and start complaining that " nO cOunteR TO tHieF steaAltH"  and Always want it the easy road hence they already run in bigger groups. Roaming is something Anet is apparantly heavy against,because everything ever being done in wvw is Against roamers making it harder and harder for them to continue do what they do. We have several mechanics to fight stealth being it 2 types of traps and radar mechanics - theres reveal skills ingame Yet you're gonna nerf their stealth uptime. How about you just delete stealth alltogether ?Anet,Grab a thief and go into WvW and play small scale or solo as a "test" to see how well you do. Because i dont think you will do well at all and quickly see how many reveals and counters theres already in place. Also Malicious backstab is Not the issue,its Malice build up + all the damage modifiers making this damage possible,with all damage modifiers taken youre easily able to hit over 120% more damage. Malice on its own does not hit hard.The only times ive you seen you run in Wvw is in a zerg where you still play like you have absolutely no clue.It's a shame you cave in and listen to the wrong groups of people and youre about to make the wrong decisions,yet again.Good luck with this game !

This post just got removed..Bwaha.Dont know why it shows up like this,its a straight copy from my "suspension" mail..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Caedmon.6798" said:Heh,thank god i stopped playing this game. Nerfing thieves and their stealth uptime ? Kick out the last few roamers from wvw so the blobs can stay happy... FFing joke. The Only reason the few people running thieves or DE with more stealth uptime is to get away from those 20 man " Really Well Organized And Amazing Player" ( Better ? ) groups that feel the need to chase you allover the map when you Arent on a stealth spec. To avoid annoyance and frustration because of the endless chasing, people adapt and run on a stealth spec to minimalize this from happening where they can Choose to bail from these situations without being chased forever by these groups.

The only thief you see is solo roaming or roaming in a small group and it's usually players that Know how to play picking out people from big groups that get annoyed by the thieves doing it and start complaining that " nO cOunteR TO tHieF steaAltH"  and Always want it the easy road hence they already run in bigger groups. Roaming is something Anet is apparantly heavy against,because everything ever being done in wvw is Against roamers making it harder and harder for them to continue do what they do. We have several mechanics to fight stealth being it 2 types of traps and radar mechanics - theres reveal skills ingame Yet you're gonna nerf their stealth uptime. How about you just delete stealth alltogether ?Anet,Grab a thief and go into WvW and play small scale or solo as a "test" to see how well you do. Because i dont think you will do well at all and quickly see how many reveals and counters theres already in place. Also Malicious backstab is Not the issue,its Malice build up + all the damage modifiers making this damage possible,with all damage modifiers taken youre easily able to hit over 120% more damage. Malice on its own does not hit hard.The only times ive you seen you run in Wvw is in a zerg where you still play like you have absolutely no clue.It's a shame you cave in and listen to the wrong groups of people and youre about to make the wrong decisions,yet again.Good luck with this game !

This post just got removed..Bwaha.Dont know why it shows up like this,its a straight copy from my "suspension" mail..

When you start with saying you stopped playing the game, the rest of the post is a pointless rant in defense of a mechanic that the " wrong groups of people" - ie almost everyone - thinks need fixing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

I still think 18 seconds on meld swoop for SB is too long compared to other abilities, 15 would be more fair.

You also seem to be nerfing Deadeye when the concern is actual builds to be too good for Thief, like condi DD or sword DD, not cheese builds which will now be gutted to unviability when the backstab build folded to any tanky target. My concern being that balancing is done from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

Because the devs can't tell the difference and blanket nerf wvw and pvp alike? Why not copy paste their 'thank you for your feedback' message as well? shrug

what are you even talking about ? before you spout nonsense and hate anet for no reason check the facts.dolyak signet on warrior has 40 sec cd in wvw and pvp. not 30sec.

and soulbeast getting a cut in mobility is WELL deserved, a class with such a good long range option shouldnt also have such good mobility option on top.

Why are you so fixated on longbow? 3 seconds in and they are forced to swap to melee, it is only 300 more range than other profs ranged options, like jesus, it is an option like you say, just an option.

Why should that mean they need no mobility? The best roaming build for ranger atm doesn't even longbow.

You seem incredibly biased just because longbow exists.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Anput.4620 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

I still think 18 seconds on meld swoop for SB is too long compared to other abilities, 15 would be more fair.

You also seem to be nerfing Deadeye when the concern is actual builds to be too good for Thief, like condi DD or sword DD, not cheese builds which will now be gutted to unviability when the backstab build folded to any tanky target. My concern being that balancing is done from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

Because the devs can't tell the difference and blanket nerf wvw and pvp alike? Why not copy paste their 'thank you for your feedback' message as well? shrug

what are you even talking about ? before you spout nonsense and hate anet for no reason check the facts.dolyak signet on warrior has 40 sec cd in wvw and pvp. not 30sec.

and soulbeast getting a cut in mobility is WELL deserved, a class with such a good long range option shouldnt also have such good mobility option on top.

Why are you so fixated on longbow? 3 seconds in and they are forced to swap to melee, it is only 300 more range than other profs ranged options, like jesus, it is an option like you say, just an option.

Why should that mean they need no mobility? The best roaming build for ranger atm doesn't even longbow.

You seem incredibly biased just because longbow exists.

And you seem incredibly biased when its about ranger. You act like you have 0 mobillity on ranger. Which is not true.I never said ranger should have 0 mobility.I said the nerfs are well deserved. The nerfs did not remove rangers mobilizy, just increased cds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@RedShark.9548 said:

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

I still think 18 seconds on meld swoop for SB is too long compared to other abilities, 15 would be more fair.

You also seem to be nerfing Deadeye when the concern is actual builds to be too good for Thief, like condi DD or sword DD, not cheese builds which will now be gutted to unviability when the backstab build folded to any tanky target. My concern being that balancing is done from the bottom up instead of from the top down.

@Anput.4620 said:Why does the balance patch list the PvP CD's and not the WvW ones? Dolyak says it will be increased from 40 to 60 but it is 30 in WvW, same with a few other skills.

Because the devs can't tell the difference and blanket nerf wvw and pvp alike? Why not copy paste their 'thank you for your feedback' message as well? shrug

what are you even talking about ? before you spout nonsense and hate anet for no reason check the facts.dolyak signet on warrior has 40 sec cd in wvw and pvp. not 30sec.

and soulbeast getting a cut in mobility is WELL deserved, a class with such a good long range option shouldnt also have such good mobility option on top.

Why are you so fixated on longbow? 3 seconds in and they are forced to swap to melee, it is only 300 more range than other profs ranged options, like jesus, it is an option like you say, just an option.

Why should that mean they need no mobility? The best roaming build for ranger atm doesn't even longbow.

You seem incredibly biased just because longbow exists.

And you seem incredibly biased when its about ranger. You act like you have 0 mobillity on ranger. Which is not true.I never said ranger should have 0 mobility.I said the nerfs are well deserved. The nerfs did not remove rangers mobilizy, just increased cds.

I never said that, i said that 18s on an ability that is purely mobility is outrageous for a non-utility skill, and that 15s would be more fair, which is still a 50% increase in CD.

Especially when we will have Thiefs and Mesmers zooming around full speed still.

I mean i also play Warrior, And Thief, and anything but Mesmer really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol thanks for the future death of smokescreen and malicious backstab. ???. I like how you already nerf it extra and you haven’t even implemented the patch.

Cheesy permastealth is not even that significant to fight with. Yes they are annoying but they dont do any significant damage to heavy armors or tanky builds. Its only effective against full zerk medium/light armor glass builds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:Lol thanks for the future death of smokescreen and malicious backstab. ???. I like how you already nerf it extra and you haven’t even implemented the patch.

Cheesy permastealth is not even that significant to fight with. Yes they are annoying but they dont do any significant damage to heavy armors or tanky builds. Its only effective against full zerk medium/light armor glass builds.If there are other builds far more effective than permastealth thieves, nerfing permastealth isnt really a problem is it? Glad we got that cleared up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jeddite.8620 said:di have 17k hp at my weaver build. if i drop a meteor into a zerg (wich is really the one and only real damage source), im half hp. but its ok, i also deal damage.if this go live -> you get more damage back than you deal. retaliation is untouched!!!

this patch is not a step forward into the future, its a step back into the past to melee mono blobs.

Seriously? Retaliation untouched? Well that will be soooo much fun with the longer cool down times and nerfs to heals and healing power.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Cal Cohen.2358" said:Hi Everyone,

General balance concernsWe’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.-The Systems Team

Revert Pulmonary Impact (from Impacting Disruption) chnages please!

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1163930#Comment_1163930

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:Lol thanks for the future death of smokescreen and malicious backstab. ???. I like how you already nerf it extra and you haven’t even implemented the patch.

Cheesy permastealth is not even that significant to fight with. Yes they are annoying but they dont do any significant damage to heavy armors or tanky builds. Its only effective against full zerk medium/light armor glass builds.If there are other builds far more effective than permastealth thieves, nerfing permastealth isnt really a problem is it? Glad we got that cleared up.

You just contradicted yourself. “It’s not good, so lets destroy it.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...