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  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

    I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

    It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.
    It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

    I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

    It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.
    It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

    And as trade off you LOSE the whole pet mechanic while merging. Simple. Core ranger has 100% pet uptime, Soulbeast has 50% pet uptime and 50% merge skills uptime. Seems not like an upgrade just like a switch compared to core in terms of mechanic. it balance out itself. the only thing that is not balanced out inherently is that Soulbeast gets more skills available and that can be solved with normal nerfing power lvl of skill ensembles.

    As said additional stat boni for merging are not necessary and can be removed just as the ability to revive pets with merging. Soulbeast can get stat penalty on pets and stat penalty when merged, that would be no problem and would be just the same than i suggested by nerfing merge and pet skills (nerf dmg, delete double/ triple rewards, higher cds on individual skills).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

    I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

    Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.
    Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.
    Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....
    Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counter
    That is not a trade off lol

    You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

    Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.

    A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

    Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

    Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

    Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

    Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? 🤔🤔🤔No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

    You have clearly confused knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic with Trading one benefit for another benefit.

    IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

  • don't listen to the qq about swipe. a -600 range penalty is nothing compared to specs with actual drawbacks. drawbacks that make them either semi viable or not at all.

    Te lazla otstara.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stand The Wall.6987 said:
    don't listen to the qq about swipe. a -600 range penalty is nothing compared to specs with actual drawbacks. drawbacks that make them either semi viable or not at all.

    Lol

  • Mbelch.9028Mbelch.9028 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Absolutely no effort to fix Firebrand, which is going to super overperform in this patch. Yikes and good luck with that.
    Burnbrand is going to dominate, as are other specs.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ZDragon.3046 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

    I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

    Incorrect thats not a trade off thats just knowing how to play. Thats not the same thing and thats a super twisted perspective to take especially when trying to tell other professions they dont have a trade off.
    Thats like saying its a trade off for reaper to have good damage without the increased life force decay and just know when to and not to shroud.
    Thats like saying its a trade off for swipe to not have reduced ranged but still be unblockable and just know when to swipe and not to swipe.....
    Thats like saying its a trade off spellbreaker to keep level 3 burst and jutst know when to Full counter and when not to full counter
    That is not a trade off lol

    You cant call out other professions for not having trade offs but then try to twist what a trade off is or should be for your main profession. Especially when other realistically do have them and the one you are defending did not.

    Knowing when and when not to press a button is not a trade off.

    A trade off is losing some thing for another thing even while that thing is not activated yet. The fact that you have access to it should come with a loss of something else.

    Slotting reaper means you lose ranged abilities in shroud form even if you have not activated it and that it consumes more resources than the normal version once you do activate it. That is a trade off even if you have not activated shroud it yet because you cant go back to having life blast, doom, life transfer, etc while reaper is slotted. You are stuck with that choice you made before hand.

    Even if we look deeper you losing your pet while fused is no different from reaper losing utility access while its in shroud which by all means is not considered a trade off because anet threw more ontop of it with the increased decay and removal of ranged abilities.

    Spellbreakers are stuck with level 1 burst and zerkers are stuck with no burst until they can enter zerker mode These are trade offs from core warrior again its got absolutely nothing with knowing when to activate a skill or mode. That is not a trade off.

    Im like legit shocked that you would even say that while you have been calling out these other professions that lacked trade offs when they obviously have them there are out right mechanical differences in some of the ones you called out in other post which makes trade off clear as day. Like seriously how do you sit here and say i know when to press a button and thats my trade off... WHAT? 🤔🤔🤔No other profession has that as a trade off because its not one.

    You have clearly confused knowing how to use a skill/tool/mechanic with Trading one benefit for another benefit.

    IF anything be happy they are still allowing f4 pet swap out of combat so at least there is some flexibility in moments where you are not fighting anyone which lets you adapt a tiny bit between combat situations.

    You totally missinterpret and missunderstood what i said lol (ofc skill ceiling is some sort trade off or at least in terms of balance logic allows that something that is harder to play or to pull off can be more rewarding/can have a little bit stronger rewards when played well than something that needs less skill but that was not my point). The trade of from Soulbeast is that the one mechanic that is new keeps out the other old mechanic while in use. Nothing more nothing less. The only thing that is not automatically trade offed by this is the more in skills Soulbeast has access to compared to core.

    I fail to undertand the Reaper example. Core Necro gets locked out of weaponskills by shroud too, so ofc it is not a Reaper trade off when it is the same there. It is just keeping the old mechanic. While Scourge get shroud skills not locking Scourge out of weaponskills. Ppl like to say the Scourge trade off is, that Scourge for that has no second hp pool from shroud but that is actually not true because the barrier mechanic just replaced that. But that is another topic i was not talking about until now.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @bravan.3876 is 100% correct.

    The people that are saying that losing Virtues in exchange for Tomes is a drawback are insane. Firebrands cannot use Virtues to gain access to Tome Skills.
    Soulbeasts cannot use Pets to gain access to Merge Skills.

    It's literally no different except that Firebrand's Tomes replace the functionality of Core Guardian Virtues and give 15-24 extremely strong skills with 90% of them being very useful and low cooldown. Soulbeasts get 3 (varying cooldowns from short to long), majority useless, with a handful of pets getting 1-3 skills that actually do something in a fight.

    If Soulbeasts could use both Pets AND Merge Skills at the same time, then that would be a different story. But the spec already has a tradeoff and now it's receiving another one.

  • @bravan.3876

    I think you are confusing "trade-off", as Anet means it according to some of their update explanations, with the concept of "limitations" built into e-spec mechanics.

    "Trade-off" as Anet defines it, is permanently sacrificing something from the core spec in exchange for something different in an elite spec.

    Whether intended trade-offs are reasonable, or how effective or skilled the respective mechanics are, are separate issues.

    • Reducing pet stats on Druid was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
    • Replacing Steal with Swipe was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
    • What they did to Chrono was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.

    We can also see Anet's meaning of trade-off in the late-in-life change they made to Revenant. Recognizing that Herald and Renegade completely lacked trade-offs compared to core, they added the F2 skill, Ancient Echo, as an exclusive skill to core Revenant, only available when an elite spec is not taken. Whether Ancient Echo is worth picking the core spec over the elites is debatable, but the relevance is that Anet only considers there to be a trade off if the e-spec completely lacks something available to the core spec.

    What these examples all have in common is the complete and permanent lack of something from core in the elite spec.

    Clearly, you cannot say the same for current Soulbeast. It simply gains a new mechanic and associated advantages on top of the core spec without permanently giving up anything from it. If Soulbeast wants the core benefit of two swappable pets, it's still available simply by not using the added elite mechanic.

    Losing access to pets while merged is a limitation built into the added elite mechanic, the way Heat is a limitation built into Holomode. But neither is inherently a trade-off versus core because core doesn't have access to the elite mechanic in the first place. In short, Soulbeast has what Ranger has in terms of pets, plus more.

    To be clear, this "trade-offs" distinction is somewhat academic, and only part of the broader balance discussion.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    @bravan.3876

    I think you are confusing "trade-off", as Anet means it according to some of their update explanations, with the concept of "limitations" built into e-spec mechanics.

    "Trade-off" as Anet defines it, is permanently sacrificing something from the core spec in exchange for something different in an elite spec.

    Whether intended trade-offs are reasonable, or how effective or skilled the respective mechanics are, are separate issues.

    • Reducing pet stats on Druid was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
    • Replacing Steal with Swipe was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.
    • What they did to Chrono was an intended trade-off, whether or not it was wise.

    We can also see Anet's meaning of trade-off in the late-in-life change they made to Revenant. Recognizing that Herald and Renegade completely lacked trade-offs compared to core, they added the F2 skill, Ancient Echo, as an exclusive skill to core Revenant, only available when an elite spec is not taken. Whether Ancient Echo is worth picking the core spec over the elites is debatable, but the relevance is that Anet only considers there to be a trade off if the e-spec completely lacks something available to the core spec.

    What these examples all have in common is the complete and permanent lack of something from core in the elite spec.

    Clearly, you cannot say the same for current Soulbeast. It simply gains a new mechanic and associated advantages on top of the core spec without permanently giving up anything from it. If Soulbeast wants the core benefit of two swappable pets, it's still available simply by not using the added elite mechanic.

    Losing access to pets while merged is a limitation built into the added elite mechanic, the way Heat is a limitation built into Holomode. But neither is inherently a trade-off versus core because core doesn't have access to the elite mechanic in the first place. In short, Soulbeast has what Ranger has in terms of pets, plus more.

    To be clear, this "trade-offs" distinction is somewhat academic, and only part of the broader balance discussion.

    I get what you say but it doesn't make sense to me.

    1. When you say trade off means, giving up something permanently from core (even though the new mechanic that the elite gets is not permanently in use and gets already locked out by using the core mechanic while playing and no matter if the elite isn't even overperforming over core o rnot), than this is already giving by not having 3 core traitlines in the build anymore. That is a whole core traitline with often very power creeped and for that insane strong traits on which elites have no access to anymore. When trade offs are only about stealing somehting from elites in addition to what they already have to give up, without even considering if the elite is even too strong and an actual upgrade and for that unbalanced compared too core or not, than this is a consept that doesn't make sense and will just detroy the game. It is not logical to artificial delete stuff from elites no matter if it even is problematic or not balancewise. This is then just a stupid marketing step, an idée fixe that has no good reason to exist. Because the creators of the spec already had balance compared to core in mind while developping the elites, that is why Soulbeast didn't get merge skills in addition to pet skills and can only use one of it at same time, and why Ranger has to choose and to switch between the 2 mechanics. The only problem i see balancewise compared to Core Ranger is, that Soulbeast has overall more buttons can be used and chained (means when pet skills are on cd i just merge and have some other skills still not on cd) and balancewise all what is needed to make elites not op and an upgrade is lowering the power lvl from the Soulbeast skill ensemble with more buttons/skill included by normal nerfs or stat penalties for pets and for while being merged, so Soulbeast needs to press the more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than the Core skill ensemble with less skills available. It is in my view purely balance wise not needed to steal something from Soulbeast just for the sake of stealing something that i then can call a trade off. Core already has builds have no problem to compete with Soulbeast builds in its power lvl. And if Soulbeast would be so much stronger compared to core than stat penalties on pets and on being merged would do the job too. But making good balance without making specs clunky or even unplayable seems not to be what is the goal of the whole trade off mess. it seems it is just about making trade offs for the sake of having trade offs, no matter if needed or logical or nonsense or not. And that is not a good balance step.
    2. So however we define trade off, the overall goal should be to bring elite specs in line with core, means that they are not stronger than core, that core is an equally strong alternative just with different playstyle/ mechanic but not weaker in terms of power lvl. As long as this is possible to reach without deleting additional core things aside from the 3. missing core traitline than it should be done by that. But atm elite specs get trade offs already not stronger or even weaker than core builds. That makes no sense just for the sake of calling it a trade off which is not needed balancewise. Just as core Ele has more skills overall than other core classes it is not in need for a trade off to balance this more in skills by deleting skills from the kit.
    3. Short said the artifical created idea of trade offs, to steal core parts of mechanics (on which elites ofc naturally are build on top of and are for that often still needed, example Chrono) is per se completely unlogic and senseless. In particular when it does that only to add trade offs by stealing active gameplay parts just for the sake of stealing somthing that core has, even on elites not overperforming and no matter how clunky and contradicting to the elite mechanic that steal of core mechanics is (like Mesmer in general, no matter what spec is in need to have instant shatters with IP. That is why IP got baseline in the first place the moment they deleted phantams oriented playstyle from Mesmer. Shatter oriented builds need IP. You cannot remove that for the sake of having an artifical trade off for Chrono that simply deleted heavily needed core mechanics Chrono is based on).
    4. Trade offs feel more like a political agenda than something that rly makes sense and is needed balancewise. And political agendas not linked to what is needed and healthy balancewise, so far away from game reality and game logic, just will destroy the game (as you can see already that some elites are compeltely destroyed or clunkly and unfun by deleting core mechanics which elites are build on and depending on and are needed for the elite to even work. If elites with more skills added are overperforming compared to core than just normally nerf this power lvl to justify the more buttons some elites have. Instead adding trade offs which often don't even solve the balance problems some elite spec builds have.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    following your logic chrono still doesnt have a tradeoff.
    core mesmer mechanics -> shatters
    chrono mechanics -> shatters
    and thus same mechanics, it doesnt work like that. when soulbeast merges he actively loses pet dps, pet projectile blocks, and pet CC
    There doesnt need to be negative mechanic to "balance out" espec. they tried with chrono and look what we have, they should learn from their mistake and move on.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

    I am not a Ranger main.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    The problem is anet screwed up with soulbeast in the first place causing this arguement. If anet wanted to follow suit as with other espec as soon as soulbeast traitline is taken the un merged state should have been removed and soulbeast should have been released as a pet less espec where u gain 3 of ur pet skills as u do now depending on ur per choice which can be swapped out of combat with a second pet of the players choice but always stayed merged with pet. It never should have been released as it was basically being core with a added choice to use the mechanic of gaining 3 skills and extra stats.

  • shadowpass.4236shadowpass.4236 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

    I also think Mirage is unbalanced but removing a dodge is not the right move.

    I get why Anet is making the change to Soulbeast but it doesn't make sense. They are adding another tradeoff to a spec that already has one. Not to mention, the spec isn't even competitive against the current meta classes. Soulbeast really does nothing better than any of the current side noders except for maybe decap over a long period of time? Our already weak ability to trade damage is getting nerfed some more and our sub-par staying power on node is getting butchered. Then we won't even have the utility from our second pet to help make up for it AND the pet swap trait timers don't even match the merge cooldown.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

    we get why the change is being made, unlike most. we also know why this change is stupid and unneeded

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    following your logic chrono still doesnt have a tradeoff.
    core mesmer mechanics -> shatters
    chrono mechanics -> shatters
    and thus same mechanics, it doesnt work like that. when soulbeast merges he actively loses pet dps, pet projectile blocks, and pet CC
    There doesnt need to be negative mechanic to "balance out" espec. they tried with chrono and look what we have, they should learn from their mistake and move on.

    Chrono used to have F5 not it's part of F4 because it was deemed not a trade off. Plus they lose the image illusionary persona. That is a trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It doesn't matter what happens when you merge..that's the point. It's the option to merge while still retaining core rangers base mechanic of having two pets.

    Elite specs don't have a negative they have a shift on mechanic instead of a life gain on functionality.

  • Sigmoid.7082Sigmoid.7082 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

    we get why the change is being made, unlike most. we also know why this change is stupid and unneeded

    I disagree that it's unneeded. If it was there to start people would have accepted it. People are just used to being spoilt by mechanical power creep.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    It's funny how most people besides most ranger mains get why the changes is being made.

    we get why the change is being made, unlike most. we also know why this change is stupid and unneeded

    I disagree that it's unneeded. If it was there to start people would have accepted it. People are just used to being spoilt by mechanical power creep.

    No, i have no problem with reducing the power creep but that can be done by simple stat penalty (and deleting some rly overperforming aspects of Soulbeast compared to core but also compared to a skilled game we want to create, like the ability to revive pets with merging, it should be more like Soulbeasts cannot merge with dead pets. Also Soulbeast should not get additional rewards for merging by higher stats, it should be the opposite, you can keep the traits giving boni for merging but from the basic stats they should be reduced while merged). You also can nerf dmg and cds from pet skills and merge skill directly when needed and delete double or triple rewards on overloaded merge skills. The only things needed to de-power-creep Soulbeast compared to core are normal nerfs and not artificial trade offs (Soulbeast isn't even rly power creeped compared to core, core traitlines are the most power creeped lines and that on a pretty passive lvl of simply adding either sustain, often very passvie facetank sustain, see Warriors Defenseline or Chaosline on Mesmer or more or less passive dmg buffs not rly adding any skill ceiling or mechanically complexity or tactical deepness to a build and only defines a build as more dmg or more tanky orientated). All elite specs already have the permanent trade off of losing a 3. core traitline. That is why it is possible that core Ranger builds are just as strong or even stronger than Soulbeast builds, even though Soulbeast has more buttons in his skill kit. And that is why it is possible that some Core Mesmer builds are stronger and easier to play than some Mirage builds already. And why 99% of all player in this game still don't have enough skill to play a "beyond broken passive condispam Mirage" with 2 dodges without op Chaosline (not to mention the 99,9% of player not being able to play Powermirage above gold) while Chaosline can make core builds viable and even stronger than Chrono or Mirage builds not using Chaosline.

    Whatever the point is not that i don't agree to reduce power creep and make classes (no matter if core or elite spec) more skilled and less noobfriendly. I just highly disagree with the way Anet does it via trade offs. I think trade offs the way Anet is creating them are nonsense, they often delete skill ceiling instead higher it. They do not rly solve balance problems instead just deleting the problem from the game by making specs clunky and unfun or even unplayable. I think normal nerfs to elites which have either more skills or a stronger mechanic on top of core to balance the power lvl are more than enough. At least for elite specs that already have an inherent trade off working against a power creeped elite compared to core (like Soulbest compared to Daredevil without shorter steal: Soulbeast has to give up pet skills incl pets autoattack as perma pressure aspect while being merged. What did Daredevil give up before steal rework? Nothing. So yes Daredevil can have a new trade off because Daredevil never had an inherent trade off as compensation for getting more and strogner dodges until steal rework. The problem with the Daredevil trade off is just, that it makes the spec super clunky to play and that also here the trade off could have been a shorter stealrange from 900 instead 600 for less clunkyness and giving a penalty on defensive stats to compensate for the more in active dodge defense. Also Anet should not compensate the new trade off by adding a new feature that is even balancewise unhealthy and broken, that also contradicts the just added trade off. Also Chrono can have a trade off because didn't have an inherent one, just it got 3 and 2 of them make no sense at all. Nonsense over nonsense...).

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • The "trade-offs" being introduced are all part of Anet's efforts to retroactively rework elite specs to be alternative (horizontal) options to core specs, rather than improved (vertical) upgrades.

    @bravan.3876, I agree that balance should be targeted towards individual overperforming specs and any overtuned aspects they may have, rather than creating simplistic "trade-offs" for the sake of the goal above, and calling it a day. That's lazy balancing, and there isn't a good track record of it thus far.

    You're absolutely right that far too often, we see things altered to become clunky, unfun, or lower skill cap, often without even addressing the underlying issues. I'd nominate Mirage as the biggest proof of this.

    I think where they're going wrong is their tendency to tunnel vision the trade-offs agenda towards altering the profession's core mechanic on e-specs--that is, the F skills. This is a very limited approach that may be convenient, but inhibits the granular attention to problem skills and traits that is actually needed.

    What's worse, by focusing only on chopping something out of the profession mechanic, they're too often gutting the essence of the spec. Again, see both Mesmer e-specs.

    I can only hope that after the dust settles from this mega update, they really hone in on the inevitable outliers, and are willing to make both the right adjustments, and revisit the bad ones.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Erzian.5218 said:
    Imagine if reaper had gotten reapers shroud in addition to core shroud (not instead of) or if firebrand had base virtue + tomes (with the downside that you couldn’t use core virtues while you are using a tome). That is what merge is on soulbeast. It’s not a specialization trade off right now, it simply is an additional skill (aka. Pure upside) which has up- and downsides when you use it. The reason why core ranger sees play over soulbeast sometimes is because core ranger traitline passive bonuses are stronger and synergize better with each other than with soulbeast (but this is similarly true for other classes).

    They haven't done that to Reaper true, Reaper got just straight up better shroud skills compared to the core ones. You could have given Reaper a second shroud with own skills btw. no problem, as long as both shrouds can't be active at same time and lock out weaponsskills and as long as both shrouds together are not stronger than the one shroud from core (means the power lvl from both Reaper shrouds needs to be around halfed so that they both together have the same impact/ power lvl then the one core shroud). This new Reaper would be way less power creeped compared to core than the current Reaper we have in the game on the class mechanic lvl. Because the current Reaper just has one shroud but this one shroud is clearly better than the old (core) one.

    It gets even better when looking at Scourge: Scourge got something on top of core shroud without compensating the upgrade by deleting core mechanics in a way that rly brings Scourge down to core lvl. Scourge got shroudskills not locking out from weaponsskills. And the missing shroud hp got replaced with barrier mechanic. So if you want, you can say that Scourge lost the core shroud mechanic , but it is not rly a lose when it just get replaced by mechanics with equal effects while having no weaponskill lock out as cookie on top of that.

    And by that logic Mirage would have another big trade off already: Mirage loses the normal dodge roll, with all its strengths (including losing the ability to jumpdodge and increasing dodge distance with that). Also Mirage dodge can be slowed down by cripple and chill, no core dodge can be affected like that). So why Mirage gets another trade off? It already lost a core mechanic, the core dodge (just like Reaper lost core shroud), lets just forget in both cases, that the replacing skills are just straight up better than the core ones. We don't care for that on Reaper, why we care for that on Mirage?

    Inconsistent and unfair as hell.

    To the FB example: I would not mind that FB has access to the core traits while in core mode, as long as the f skills get replaced by only 3 other skills and not by 15 (don't forget the merge skills on Soulbeast are also not instant while the pet f skills for the Ranger are instant because the pet has the casttime for its skills).
    You then just need to tone down the power lvl of these 6 skills by normal nerfs that they are not (much) stronger overall than the 3 core f skills alone on core Guard, means taking away around 50% of the power lvl from core skills and put that 50% power in the new 3 FB f skills (that is what i suggest to do to Soulbeast too).
    Also to make it an equally treatment to Soulbeast you would need some more loses on other places on FB. Because on Soulbeast not only the f skills get replaced while merging, the whole pet incl its passive skills (autoattack from pet as perma pressure) will be deleted/inactive while merging, means Ranger loses a completely passive and mobil independent acting dmg and facetank sourge (pets can bodyblock projectiles, pets can lower dmg from skills like Rev sword 3 by giving another target, pets distract the focus of the opponent by splitting it to 2 instead 1 target. Pets can hit while the Ranger is kiting and out of los from his own skills etc etc. There is so much more into the pet mechanic then just temporary replacing 3/4 f-skills with 3/4 other f-skills. So you would need something like: When FB switches in FB-mode one teammate in conquest match has to stay in keep for that duration (it will be instantly teleported into keep when FB goes into FB mode and get respawned at FBs current location when FB drops back into core mode) or FB only has half its dmg (or even better only half healing to make it contrary and unlogic to the supportive character/ orientation of the FB spec rofl) from other skills (weapons, utilities) while in FB mode, all passive traits are disabled or whatever, hard to compare because Guard has no pet mechanic as basic class mechnaic. But only then it would be the same as the Soulbeast treatment while merging. Just temporary replacing 3 f skills with 3 other f skills is not what happens to Soulbeast, its way more that Soulbeast LOSE while merging and that for only 3 different skills, which are not passive, which need los and cannot hit while the Ranger is not even in fight range with the target etc. (all stuff pets can do). The thing is FB is not designed as a mode, because you can just change the class mechanic from virtues by replacing the 3 f skills by other skills, while Virtues still stay the baseline class mechanic of Guard. But you cannot just replace f skills from Ranger by other skills and call that a day and a new elite spec. That is why they added new f skills to Ranger in form of a temporary mode because you cannot keep out Rangers completely from the pet mechanic (because that pet is the baseline class mechanic of Ranger which can't be removed completely).

    While giving higher stats while merging to compensate for the lose in pet dmg is ofc completely contradicting to the inherent trade off which is there to prevent Soulbeast from being too much power creeped compared to core. So that should get removed. It is also not balanced and dumbs down Soulbeast when merging revives the pet. Because that means Soulbeast gets less punished by letting pets die (what is a playermistake and should be punished). That is something Soulbeast gets on top of core what should not exist (there is no good reason why Soulbeast should be less punished for pet misplays). When then the more in skills Soulbeast gets overall (from being able to switch between pet and merge skills) are still too strong compared to core you can just normally nerf the power lvl off these more buttons Soulbeast has compared to core (just as i explained for the FB f skills when Fb has 6 instead 3 f skills), measn lower their dmg as much as needed, higher cds from individual skills (pets and merge skills) and delete other rewards from skills which have more than one.

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    So with that said, the inherent trade off by making Ranger losing pet skills for the duration of being merged is already working against the tendency of Soulbeast being power creeped compared to core. What is left and maybe (only maybe, often core traitlines are so strong and power creeped that it doesn't rly matter much, that the elite has few skills more while losing a very strong core traitline) needs further adjustments to prevent Soulbeast to be power creeped compared to core is the fact, that Soulbeats got few skills in addition over core. Because the additional mechanic Soulbeast gets on the class mechanical lvl does indeed trade offs itself by locking out pets while being merged. Means the only possible power creep can come from having few skills more than core. And that can be adjusted by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the Soulbeast mechanic by a clunky trade off that deletes skills and for that active gameplay options just as mechanically complexity from the Soulbeast kit.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @bravan.3876 said:

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:

    @shadowpass.4236 said:
    Also the Soulbeast tradeoff is dumb.

    A similar "tradeoff" would be like removing an attunement from Weaver. You guys are just killing the fluidity of the spec and haven't even changed the pet swap trait timers to match the merge cooldown.

    You mention weaver and talk about fluidity but weaver is less fluid than base ele when it comes to attunement swapping due to global cooldown on swap as well as only partial attunement. There is a reason why there have been complaint to make unravel an F5. I mean anyone could have seen this coming a mile off.

    His example still makes sense, not in terms of fluid gameplay but in terms of making trade offs which delete skills/ active gameplay options from elite specs for no good reason, even though just normal nerfing/ adjusting the power lvl and cds of the elite skill ensemple that has more skills added over core would do the balance job too.

    But people keep misinterpreting what a trade of is supposed to be. At a class mechanical level soul beast only gained additional functionality:Merge. Nothing was lost.

    You say no good reason and they are removing options but elite specs are not supposed to be straight upgrades which, due to the lack of trade offs, a lot of then were. They were just class+. That's now mostly gone. Again, before you forget, at a class mechanical level.

    Wrong, Soulbeast loses pet f skills and the pet with his passive skills itself while merging already. That is already the needed trade off for Soulbeast that even adds skill ceiling by adding the decision between when to switch to merge skills and when to use the pet.

    I don't know if you are missing the point on purpose out of sheer anger at what's happening but you're getting bogged down in effectivenes and playstyle again instead of what is actually there at the class mechanical level.

    Ranger class mechanic: 2 pets.
    Soulbeast class mechanic: 2 pets and merge.

    Soul beast has an opportunity cost for merging with the pet as you say. You gain it's stats/skills but lose it etc. But on the level of the mechanic itself it was just a pure functionality gain. This is why it's going down to one pet and merge.

    Soulbeast has a playstyle tradeoff but not a class mechanical one. For what the trade offs are supposed to be it didn't have one now it's getting one.

    Firebrands, Weavers, and Holosmiths don't have tradeoffs.

    Yes they do. Firebrand loses their old virtues for new ones. Weavers lose the ability to single attune for being able to double attune. Holo lose their F5 to get photon forge.

    The tradeoff aren't about effectiveness but about the class mechanic itself. You are saying they don't have one because the class mechanic is stronger or the build itself is strong. That's a balance issue not anything to do with the spec having a tradeoff or not.

    With respect to their class mechanic soulbeast didn't lose anything to gain beast mode. Mechanically and thematically it makes sense that soul beast would be reduced to one pet. Again, very unsure how people didn't see this coming when Anet said they were looking to add tradeoffs to the specs that didn't have them.

    Soulbeast lose all pet skills while being merged. That is a directly to the elite pointed trade off. That Soulbeast still has more buttons compared to core just like FB btw (more skills that can be chained) by being able to switch between 2 different mechanics (it is a SWITCH not an on top addition) has to be adjusted by lowering the overall power lvl of the more button ensemble. That can be done by normal nerfs and not by deleting parts of the elite mechanic itself.

    It's not about having more buttons and no part of the elite mechanic is being removed. It's part of all of core that is being removed to make room for the elite mechanic, like every other spec in the game.

    Why is it so hard to understand losing skills when merged is not s tradeoff when you have just gained the option to merge. At a mechanical level it's s pure gain and now it's not. For the last time :

    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is lost to gain the new mode.
    Slb then: 1 pet and beast mode - something had been lost to gain beast mode. A trade off at a class mechanical level.

    It's really so easy to understand.

    I am going to give up though since it is clear now you don't really understand what Anet meant by tradeoffs at all.

    I think you don't understand and also never played Soulbeast. The trade off is directly pointed to have a decision making about choosing when to use merge skills and when to use pet skills. You don't have both at same time. This is a trade off and when you cannot understand this basic thing than i am the one giving up trying to explain the obvious. The only on top thing Soulbeast factual got over core is some more skills they can chain AFTER ANOTHER, while the fact that they can SWITCH between 2 different mechanics is already trade offed by the need to CHOOSE which one to use at a specific situation in a fight and not being able to use both AT SAME TIME. To make Soulbeast not overperform and for that not being an upgrade compared to core you only need to nerf the power lvl of the more button skill ensemble from Soulbeast to the lower power lvl from the core skill ensemble with less available buttons (what isn't even remarkable lower, thats why there are very strong core Ranger builds completely equally alternatives to Soulbeast and viable on same lvl as Soulbeast). Because more buttons to CHAIN AFTER ANOTHER is all what Soulbeats got over core what was not trade offed already by the inherent trade off with the need to CHOOSE BETWEEN 2 different mechanics which EXCLUDE each other.

    It shows in ur first paragraph that u have zero clue the difference of a trade off vs just more options. With soulbeast u GET THE ADDED OPTION to merge and gain 3 extra pet skills AND extra stats if the situation calls for it OR stay un merged or un merge if merged to GAIN access to the ai pet and it's one pet skill. The difference is with a real trade of that choice would not be there. A real trade off would have been u can swap while merged as a soulbeast between two pets but cant un merge.
    It's not a trade off when u can freely swap between the two whenever(on cd of course). Ur acting like it's a trade off because u dont have the 3 pet skills and stat bonus as a soulbeast while still retaining the ai pet and its skill which is wrong.

    And as trade off you LOSE the whole pet mechanic while merging. Simple. Core ranger has 100% pet uptime, Soulbeast has 50% pet uptime and 50% merge skills uptime. Seems not like an upgrade just like a switch compared to core in terms of mechanic. it balance out itself. the only thing that is not balanced out inherently is that Soulbeast gets more skills available and that can be solved with normal nerfing power lvl of skill ensembles.

    As said additional stat boni for merging are not necessary and can be removed just as the ability to revive pets with merging. Soulbeast can get stat penalty on pets and stat penalty when merged, that would be no problem and would be just the same than i suggested by nerfing merge and pet skills (nerf dmg, delete double/ triple rewards, higher cds on individual skills).

    Honestly anet should have just made it simple so u guys wouldn't have just gotten used to a overloaded spec with its espec just literally being added onto ur core adding more versatility lol. They shoulda just made soulbeast pet less full stop and u get abilities based on pet chosen , that's a trade off.

    No that is not a trade off, that is simply not a Ranger anymore. What defines Ranger (no matter on what spec) is, that it does have petsrunning with him. A completely petless spec would not be a Ranger anymore. During a Daredevil aside from all differences it has to core Thief still has initiative as baseline class mechanic because it would not be a Thief without that anymore. That is why Guards still have Virtues, they are just different designed on FB, just as they are different on DH. Giving Ranger some new f skills and no pets at all anymore would remove the baseline class mechanic of Ranger. It would become a different kind of Mesmer (when having 4 f-skills) or another kind of Guard (when having only 3 f skills). So a completely petless only on f-skills based elite spec is no option at all because that would not be a Ranger anymore.
    So the way Daredevil is designed as elite makes it completely unnecessary to give Daredevils the possibility to switch back to core mechanic, because the elite mechanic doesn't keep Daredevil out from the core mechanic that defines Daredevil as being some kind of Thief in the first place (Daredevil has permanently access to initiative mechanic). The elite mechanic doesn't consum the baseline class defining core mechanic in the first place, while merging does replace the baseline class defining mechanic (having pets) and for that it can't be a permanent replacement. That is why beastmode is designed as a MODE, in which the Ranger can drop in and out. And to prevent power creep the MODE locks out pet skills temporary as inherent compensation. Still all in all Soulbeast has more buttons it can use after another compared to core TRUE (just as Ele has even way more skills than a Soulbeast or even a FB), but that can be normally balanced by nerfing pet stats and Ranger stats while being merged and by nerfing pet and merge skills directly (lower dmg, less other rewards, higher cds). That way you prevent power creep from Soulbeast elite without killing mechanical complexity, tactical deepness and skill ceiling Soulbeast has more than core Ranger.

    @Twilight Tempest.7584 said:
    The "trade-offs" being introduced are all part of Anet's efforts to retroactively rework elite specs to be alternative (horizontal) options to core specs, rather than improved (vertical) upgrades.

    @bravan.3876, I agree that balance should be targeted towards individual overperforming specs and any overtuned aspects they may have, rather than creating simplistic "trade-offs" for the sake of the goal above, and calling it a day. That's lazy balancing, and there isn't a good track record of it thus far.

    You're absolutely right that far too often, we see things altered to become clunky, unfun, or lower skill cap, often without even addressing the underlying issues. I'd nominate Mirage as the biggest proof of this.

    I think where they're going wrong is their tendency to tunnel vision the trade-offs agenda towards altering the profession's core mechanic on e-specs--that is, the F skills. This is a very limited approach that may be convenient, but inhibits the granular attention to problem skills and traits that is actually needed.

    What's worse, by focusing only on chopping something out of the profession mechanic, they're too often gutting the essence of the spec. Again, see both Mesmer e-specs.

    I can only hope that after the dust settles from this mega update, they really hone in on the inevitable outliers, and are willing to make both the right adjustments, and revisit the bad ones.

    Yes agree.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • Sikieiki.3189Sikieiki.3189 Member ✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    Not sure if people already posted something about it but as it seems both Glyph of Renewal and Brutality (Devastation GM trait) which are already highly overperforming are not being touched and should be looked into...

    -

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I love how mirage losing its dodge and ranger one of its pets brings them together to suport each others supposed undeserved changes haha people are funny.
    Both changes are justifiable, I say thank u anet and good job :)

  • killfil.3472killfil.3472 Member ✭✭✭

    I'm still hoping for a rework of the necromancer's staff.
    It is, currently, a rather uninteresting weapon.
    It has so much potential already, though!
    That ghostly scythe blade we manifest could be so much more than a mere visual effect!

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    I love how mirage losing its dodge and ranger one of its pets brings them together to suport each others supposed undeserved changes haha people are funny.
    Both changes are justifiable, I say thank u anet and good job :)

    Haha these biased class main ppl in this forum without any clue about classmechanics of other classes they don't play (i just explained why the comparision of other specs don't have the ability to switch back to core mechanics with traited elite is not 100% accurate) are funny. I mean, i know why i do not suggest a one dodge change for Spellbreaker to compensate for the fact that the trade off from Spellbreaker actually has zero effect on the meta build with dagger and gs, even though Spellbreaker can facetank more on Demo amulet than even a Chaosline Mirage while having a standard rotation of active defense skills makes him literally unhitable at least as long as a Mirage using every endurance reggen tool it has (double energy sigil, adventure rune, Illusionary Ambush utility etc). Pure logically Spellbreaker would be a more accurate pick for the one dodge change (he even also does dmg with dodges, even more than a Mirage when it hits, without the need to get 3 clones up first and Warrior is not even balanced around and based around that dodge trait to make dmg, it just gets insane high unblockable dodge dmg ON TOP of his usual ways of dmg application, so the one dodge change would not even contradict his basic mechanic).

    But as Multiclass player i also play Warrior and don't want it to become unnecessary clunky and overnerfed. And even on a Warrior with way higher basic defense and without contraditing his basic mechanics the one dodge change still would be an overnerf. Lucky you, i can't wait when Warrior gets stupid and unneeded changes and i argue/ fight for your main class then and you suddenly biasly agree to me.

    The whole point is, that you can prevent Soulbeast from being power creeped compared to core in TWO different ways:

    1). With a clunky trade off deleting active gameplay options and skills from the spec which are supposed to be there, also delete mechanically complexity, tactical deepness and skill ceiling from the class, while you just could reach the same goal (nerfing Soulbeasts power lvl compared to core) with
    2). normal nerf changes at the right places and just delete some rly op aspects from Soulbeast (like the pet revive when merging) which don't even get adressed by the trade off change.

    But why use the superior way of normal nerfs for de-power-creeping Soulbeast which reach the goal of the clunky trade off just as well (even better) when you can take the worse way with clearly higher costs for the class (even contradicting the goal to make Soulbeast less noobfriendly by deleting skill ceiling and not touching actually rly op aspects it has). Because logic is strong with ppl in this forum and the "i don't care for how clunky other classes get as long as it is not my main" mentality, ppl who just want to see other classes get nerfs they have problems to beat and even are happy when get overnerfed, no matter that the class even gets easier and noobfriendly to play. But who care when the class will get dumbed down when it will be unplayable anyway? GG buddy, well played Warrior main!

    As a multiclass player i want all classes to not be clunky and overnerfed, i want all classes to get fair treatment because i care for an overall fun and skillful game and don't only care for me alone having fun on my main. And deleting skill ceiling or making specs completely unplayable by unlogical changes completely contradicting their basic mechanics is simply not good for the game as a whole. This inconsistent trade off agenta is a big mess and very bad executed even on elite specs that had no inherent trade offs right from release (Chrono, Daredevil as examples) and for that could rly get some "trade off treatment".

    Sure compared to what happens to Mesmer specs (and in parts also to FA Ele with the Obsidian change) Soulbeast can be happy, the planned trade off is not completely unlogical and contradicting to the basic core nature of Ranger and the basic nature of Soulbeast, it will be playable and not overly clunky. But why go an inferior balance way with trade off just for the sake of having a trade off when you can reach the same goal of not power creeping Soulbeast compared to core in a way doesn't delete skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanically complexity from the class, simply by normal nerfs will tone down the power lvl of the more-button-Soulbeast-skill-kit compared to core just as well? Makes no sense to me.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • SCRAPPER: I think** the healing turret nerf is overkill directed at nerfing Holo**. It is getting nerfed worse than any other heal pretty much. On the other side of this, you all are really forcing Scrapper to only be viable by taking the inventions line AND alchemy lines. Please reconsider this. Allow scrapper to be traited for more than tank- because you frankly haven't given it the ability to be a tank in pvp, Tank scrapper, regardless of how you look at it, is not at all viable right now: It does little to no damage with virtually non-existent party support, and it is easily forced off point by any damage-focused class or CC (and it’s easily killed 1v2, especially with so little access to stab/stunbreaks). It isn’t capable of effectively filling the tank role in the way ele and guard can. Heck, Holo can tank better and heal more! After this next patch, scrappers will be completely forced into bringing both the alchemy and inventions traitlines just to survive. Scrapper has no alternative method of healing outside of the heal skill (because impact savant is a joke until you are hitting 3+people/second with aoe)... so, with the f5 med pack drop gone from the last balance patches, to deal with condi and any damage all, we now are going to be forced into always bringing bulwark gyro (waste of space) along with the terrible medic gyro (to try and utilize anti corrosion plating). If you slot ANY OTHER TRAITLINE you will have to bring purge gyro (supreme waste of space) just to deal with condi- and that, of course, will be in the place of a necessary stunbreak or utility. For a melee class that is supposed to be mid-range damage + tanky, these changes will make it the equivalent of a thief minus the damage, mobility, and stealth. Scrapper is not exactly tanky in terms of handling damage... How is this supposed to compete with a war or rev... or anything for that matter.

  • bravan.3876bravan.3876 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    Sry for answering different posts 1 by 1 but there were so many i missed a lot of them first.

    @Sigmoid.7082 said:
    Core: 2 pets - core mechanic.
    Slb now: 2 pets and beat mode - pure gain since you still have two pets and a new mode regardless of if you lose your pet and it's skills during merge it's the fact nothing is > lost to gain the new mode.
    It's really so easy to understand.

    Is it? Because you didn't understand, you are ignoring completely the difference between Soulbeast MODE and other elite specs just modifying class defining core mechanics while keeping the class defining core mechanic permanetly available. Like a lot of ppl here coming with a flawed comparision about why other classes can't go back to core mode when speced in elite while i explained very well in a previous post why Ranger needs to have this and why Soulbeast is for that reason created as a MODE the Ranger can drop in and out. No other spec needs to have the possibility to drop back into the class defining core mechanic, because no other spec loses his class defining core mechanic when specing into an elite (all Thief specs have permanent access to the initiative mechanic because without that neither Daredevil nor Deadeye would be a Thief anymore. All Guardspecs have perma access to Virtues, just that the Virtues are differently designed. A Ranger that specs into Soulbeast is forced to give up class defining core mechanic of having a pet. That is the reason it is created as a temporary mode. If you would make Soulbeast a completely petless spec, only based on some different f skills it would not be a Ranger anymore). Merging is a trade off because it keeps Ranger out of its fundamental class defining basic core mechanic and is for that reason designed as temporary mode.

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    I mean it's pretty simple to understand. A soulbeast can play as a core having pet un merged and has access to passive and non passive pet skills same as a core ranger. With soulbeast u get the merge mechanic on top not instead of the core pet mechanic. That is not a trade off

    Nothing is simple to understand, or why also you (as lot of other ppl) miss the difference between elites which don't keep the elite out of the fundamental class defining basic core mechanic (example initiative for all Thief specs) and an elite that does keep the elite out of the fundamental class defining basic core mechanic (having pets running with you) and is for that reason designed as a temporary MODE. So the comparision between a Fb or Daredevil which cannot drop back into core mode on demand is inaccurate. Merging is a trade off because it keeps Ranger out of its fundamental class defining basic core mechanic and is for that reason designed as temporary mode, otherwise Soulbeast would not be a kind of Ranger anymore.

    Yes Soulbeast can be played same as core Ranger when ignoring merging completely. That is no problem, as long as Anet makes sure, that a Soulbeast that ignores merging and plays like a core Ranger is weaker than a core Ranger. That is all that is needed to make it a trade off. Soulbeast needs to be forced to use his elite mechanic otherwise it is subpar played and for that drops efficacy/ impact in terms of dmg/cc/ every reward you can imagine compared to core. With other words you ofc don't add stat gain while merging, you ofc make pets on Soulbeast weaker compared to core. You ofc don't remove punishment for pet misplays by letting Soulbeats revive pets with merging. If all these things are given, than merging has a trade off. That Soulbeast can play like a core Ranger is not a problem as long as a Soulbeast that ignores his elite mechanic and plays it subpar is clearly weaker than a core Ranger. Ofc you can do that with a clunky trade off with removing one pet (that will also remove skill ceiling/ tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the spec, it also ignores what a big deal an inactive pet while merged already is) while not even solving and deleting op aspects (like the pet revive from merging) from Soulbeast, or you go the better way by simple stat penalty and normal nerfs to merge and pet skills.

    "playing revenant is borderline exploiting" - up condimirage 2k18

  • @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    Hi Everyone,

    We wanted to swing by with an update on the balance patch and respond to some of the main feedback points that we’ve seen. At this point we’re mostly locked down for the release, but we’re still gathering feedback and continuing some investigation for future work.

    For reference, the initial post can be found here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/96744/balance-patch-preview-pvp

    0.01
    There’s been a lot of discussion around CC skills and if all of them should deal minimal damage. We agree that it shouldn’t be a hard rule and there’s room for exceptions. We won’t be making any adjustments to these for the initial update, but expect some changes as we continue to evaluate things moving forward. Even for the exceptions, hard CC skills still won’t be near the top of the damage range, but there’s room to work with above 0.01. In some cases it may make sense for a skill to not have any CC and instead be a higher damage skill, but these would need to be game-wide changes and something that we’ll be discussing with the skills team.

    General balance concerns
    We’ve read all the feedback and seen the concerns about future metas and the viability of certain professions and specializations after the update. After the patch goes out, we’ll be continuing to iterate as we gather more data and feedback based on actual gameplay. We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

    Additional changes

    • Concealing Restoration: Reduced stealth duration from 2 seconds to 1 second.
    • Rending Shade: Reduced number of boons stolen from 2 to 1.
    • Assassin's Signet: Increased cooldown from 20 seconds to 30 seconds.
    • Leeching Venoms: Reduced maximum stacks of spider venom provided by this trait from 6 to 2.
    • Malicious Backstab: Reduced power coefficients from 1.2/2.4 to 0.9/1.8
    • Smokescreen: Increased cooldown from 35 seconds to 45 seconds
    • Lightning Rod: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 1.2

    There’s still a lot of work to do, but this update should give us a good starting point to build from and we’re excited to see where things go.
    -The Systems Team

    Your changes are terrible unless you work to reduce evasion/evade frames in the game from heroes like thief, mesmer, etc

  • if you guys are gonna nerf condi and boon duration on runes, could you please condense them into the 2nd bonus? having a rune that gives +4% on 2nd bonus then +6% on 4th is going to be very underwhelming. opens up an option for 4th...

    Te lazla otstara.

  • reikken.4961reikken.4961 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    Lower hp on Svanir/Chieftan in Forest of Niflhel to match the global damage drop.
    Also the npcs in Legacy of the Foefire.

    Stronghold is probably ok though, due to the different nature of the mode. In fact it's probably actually better with them being a little tankier.

  • Jasonbdj.4021Jasonbdj.4021 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 17, 2020

    @Nascull.5842 said:
    game patches are based on casual players that cannot handle the lose of a battle they complain and complain infinite (instead of studying a counter build setup) until the game is boring and evry class is kinda playable by a kid having down sydrome u will lose veteran players anet but im sure u guys do not care about that as long the new 1nes stream in that buy blindfolded gems anet just follows the gembuyers like a man follows his thing in pants

    Incorrect, only very few builds are viable in PVP (bursty skills with life saving skills). Its a burst or be burst gameplay, and 80% of all available options are completely useless as they rely on hp and toughness..... the damage is far too high for what the class was designed to take. Many like me do not want to be locked into small number of class/build that we don't enjoy, not here to work for frame and rewards on a video game....we simply here to have fun.

  • Daishi.6027Daishi.6027 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Cal Cohen.2358 said:
    We’re prepared to act quickly in response to anything egregious that pops up, whether it’s an individual build greatly overperforming or a heavy skew of the meta in any particular fashion (unkillable tanks, dominant condition builds pushing out any power builds, etc). Once any major wrinkles are ironed out, we’ll settle back into the faster cadence that we mentioned previously as we work toward improving balance across the board.

    During this time, is fixing anything that significantly under performs considered a "Major wrinkle"? Is the team willing to revert changes including the supposed trade offs?

    Or are we going to be suck in a situation where even if they are bad, the staunch desire to have those specific trade offs will just be supplemented with buffs in other areas?

  • Quadox.7834Quadox.7834 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Fix Chrono!!

    // Yanim

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @reikken.4961 said:
    Lower hp on Svanir/Chieftan in Forest of Niflhel to match the global damage drop.
    Also the npcs in Legacy of the Foefire.

    Actually they shouldn't lower the hp they should keep i up to make going for them a risk and requiers co operative action again. I like the idea of them being strong enough that most builds on a given will not be able to solo them anymore.

  • Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

    Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
    Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.
    Keep the projectile destruction.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    OR

    Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

    Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
    Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.
    Keep the projectile destruction.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    OR

    Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    look at other project hate abilities.
    realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

    Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
    Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.
    Keep the projectile destruction.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    OR

    Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    look at other project hate abilities.
    realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

    All the classes that have projectile hate also have more passive defenses overall, and often don't have people perpetually whining about when they do anything that evades damage if the evade was timed properly.

    You don't need to sell this nerf to me as if skills can't be better or worse based on how brittle the class that is using them is.
    Nerf what you want. Thieves will adapt.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

    Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
    Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.
    Keep the projectile destruction.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    OR

    Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    look at other project hate abilities.
    realize that they are all MUCH worse then smoke screen.

    All the classes that have projectile hate also have more passive defenses overall, and often don't have people perpetually whining about when they do anything that evades damage if the evade was timed properly.

    You don't need to sell this nerf to me as if skills can't be better or worse based on how brittle the class that is using them is.
    Nerf what you want. Thieves will adapt.

    ofc they will, entire class design revolves around spamming 1 ability. as long as 1 ability is overperforming thief will be overperforming.
    some screen = feedback+veil+pulsing blind field

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    ofc they will, entire class design revolves around spamming 1 ability. as long as 1 ability is overperforming thief will be overperforming.
    some screen = feedback+veil+pulsing blind field

    Thanks for your feedback.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]

  • Tayga.3192Tayga.3192 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    some screen = feedback+veil+pulsing blind field

    72 seconds cooldown :)

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tayga.3192 said:

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    some screen = feedback+veil+pulsing blind field

    72 seconds cooldown :)

    and thats the sad part, its all 3 combined but also better at the same time :D

  • @Mbelch.9028 said:
    Absolutely no effort to fix Firebrand, which is going to super overperform in this patch. Yikes and good luck with that.
    Burnbrand is going to dominate, as are other specs.

    But, but, thief!?!?!?! We have to complain about thief, nothing else will be op just thief... (according to all the forum complainers who have set a new standard of complaining)

    Sarcasm off, I agree with you.

  • Momekic.8603Momekic.8603 Member ✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    Refresh caused duplicate post -_-

  • Momekic.8603Momekic.8603 Member ✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    Refresh caused duplicate post again -_-

  • Primed light beam went from 3.0 to 0.01...cool now the best elite is a wet noodle knockback.

    100% power coefficient reduction on all CC skills is pretty extreme. Definitely need to evaluate this change because there are a lot of skills that happen to have CC, but I don’t think their identity is in the CC.

  • Odik.4587Odik.4587 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Azure The Heartless.3261 said:
    Forwarding this here so a Dev can see it~

    Nerf Smokescreen so it only pulses blind once every 2 seconds.
    Increase duration to 8 seconds, so it can pulse four times.
    Keep the projectile destruction.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    OR

    Reduce the radius of Smokescreen to 240.
    Reduce cooldown to 40 seconds. 45 is a bit high.

    Lets start with that smokescreen alrdy lasts 9 seconds and blind 9 times. Bug?Feature? Anet?
    What radius 240? Thats alrdy 240 according to wiki.
    This pretty much combine necromancers utilities CPC and well of darkness. 30/35s cd. CPC is not exact the same but you get the point, i guess? So its like ahead of any of these utilities and its pretty much 2 in 1 for super low cd. Suggestion below that would be taking parts of it but not too strong at once.
    I would give it 6s duration, ~180 radius, 40-45s cd, pulse blind once per 2 seconds.

  • Azure The Heartless.3261Azure The Heartless.3261 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Odik.4587 said:
    What radius 240? Thats alrdy 240 according to wiki.

    We may need to take a look at that then. It feels like 360. I'll double check today. If it is actually bigger than intended, that should be fixed.

    This pretty much combine necromancers utilities CPC and well of darkness. 30/35s cd. CPC is not exact the same but you get the point, i guess? So its like ahead of any of these utilities and its pretty much 2 in 1 for super low cd. Suggestion below that would be taking parts of it but not too strong at once.
    I would give it 6s duration, ~180 radius, 40-45s cd, pulse blind once per 2 seconds.

    40 seconds CD is what I was intending.

    Either shave the blind pulse or the AOE. You cannot have both. The first opens it to bruteforcing by melee, the second opens it to AOE or moves with a range outside of the circle.

    @Odik.4587 said:
    Lets start with that smokescreen alrdy lasts 9 seconds and blind 9 times. Bug?Feature? Anet?

    I'll double check that. If its bugged a big fix alone may be sufficient.

    [Charr Noises]
    [I play every class!]
    [Fight me in the arena anytime!]