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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

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@"Swagger.1459" said:

but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers.

It's actually possible to clear some of boss(es) by using all healers :)

I mean, if by your idea of non-toxic environment and fun is to clear a raid boss is to clear it within 30+ minutes when you can clear it in less then 5, by all means :). I believe there are also clips where some of the raid bosses were actually low-manned :)

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@Stalvros.9217 said:

@"Swagger.1459" said:

but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers.

It's actually possible to clear some of boss(es) by using all healers :)

I mean, if by your idea of non-toxic environment and fun is to clear a raid boss is to clear it within 30+ minutes when you can clear it in less then 5, by all means :). I believe there are also clips where some of the raid bosses were actually low-manned :)

And the point is? I mean, are you defending this end result? "They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

Did you miss this fact? "the small audience they attract."

All is good with "the small audience", right? No problems here...

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@"Jayden Reese.9542" said:Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

I'm pretty sure OP is lamenting the fact that raids are not ultimately enjoyable and really wish for them to become better, also probably plays them, or have played them successfully before. This particular topic (finally) seems to have nothing to do with difficulty. It's also a much more broad criticism of how the devs failed to properly overhaul the supposed stale holy trinity of classes. Interestingly I pretty much agree with the OP's quote: they even missed the mark on what they were overhauling - since the 3 absolute musts before the times of WoW (see for example Lineage games) were not DPS, tank and heals - but rather buffers, tanks, and healers, with DPS becoming a kind of inverted cannon fodder to simply fill all the less important slots. Now we are all DPS with varying degrees of how relevant our DPS is related to our (mostly passive) buffing.

To complement the OP I'd say that their formula does work for the open world and arguably also works pretty well for more "junk food" content such as fractals. Their raid content leans very much towards requiring a soft return to the old system (with toughness-based mechanics not seem elsewhere and forced debuffing phases for example), which is a testament to how their class design doesn't really fit this kind of game mode. I disagree on it being a clusterkitten and believe they honestly did the best they could with what they had. Dhuum is the stellar example of what we should have plenty more of, but on the other hand, it is also pretty much a fight from an action game, with timing mechanics and motions like a dance trumping over the strategy and adaptation that is more typical of raids from games that do have more of a holy trinity of classes. This is neither good nor bad but definitely different from what people came to know as "raiding". Perhaps our raids should have been called "Strikes" all along since W1 instead of the former very loaded word.

But really, none of this and none of the discussions about difficulty are as bad as the fact that the release cadence got worse to the point of finally stopping, this is definitely the one thing that makes people quit anything: lack of continuity and consistency. Anet has been very, very bad at maintaining content consistently and releasing things that have newer, flashy names don't help at all. MMOs can't be developed like startups, you can't simply drop entire lines of content in favor of new systems and expect players to tag along as if they didn't really care about the older gameplay modes.

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@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

This is what I get from the message as well :)

Essentially; Other games has it easier, why shouldn't this one be too!

That being said: I do agree with OP the statement that not many of the population raids?At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

As to the reason why;Probby due to toxicity? But the thing is, it's NOT un-achieveable!I remember my 1st raiding experience as well (Was using basic necro rampager stat on Sloth-hazor, keeps dropping poison ON group and keeps screwing mechanics). It was NOT enjoyable :(, but that experience changed when a very experienced player started teaching me the ways to clear it, which class to use. I'm not even going to argue with the fact that WHY should you use this class to clear this? WHY can't you use that class? It's all just abt - u wanna clear raids? This is the most efficient way to do it! U wanna do it? This is the way to do it based on the settings / limitation of the game design! Don't want to? Okay!

And just so we are clear, raid players suffers too :(.I know a lot of people who build chrono thinking that they make a good tank and boon giver (they still do btw), but the nerfs that's been made to the class :(. We spent hours grinding, optimising the class and the nerf hammer hits :(. Still, either you can complain abt it or just make another class to fill in the gap. Although they may not be as effective as before the nerf, as long as you get to enjoy playing the game with your friends trying out different tactics to acquire the kills to get them sweet sweet LOOTS, why not :).

Raid can still be fun~Maybe NOT the way you want it to be fun but..... it can be :).On that note, if you are a new player and would like to learn more abt raiding, pls do not hesitate to contact me :). I would definitely love to help (Its the least I could do to give back to the community) and would love to see the raiding community grow :)

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You people need to stop joining groups that clearly dont want you. If you're joining 500 kp groups and you have 2 that's not the group being toxic. That's on you.

Why not join the many other people who also complain about toxicity on this forum and form your own welcoming group? The key to successful raiding is like minded individuals. If you want to play a minion reaper, form a group of other players that want to play longbow dh, shortbow thief, etc

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@Stalvros.9217 said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Stalvros.9217" said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

I’m wrong?

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray

"They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

Do you understand the meaning of that comment?

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Stalvros.9217" said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

I’m wrong?

"They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

Do you understand the meaning of that comment?

Since his whole comment is seen very critically by a huge amount of the community I don't think he is THE ONE to judge about it. And even if it's like that now it's because the overall GW2 population decreased but especially veteran raiders due to release cycles being too long.Btw. we could say the same for WvW or PvP from our perspective: The audience of PvP & WvW only attracts a small audience because they don't release content there.In the end it's a non-issue. This game is too old by now to get enough or significantly more players in to the game and the appropriate modes. The ship has sailed for raids & instanced content long ago. Strikes are the cheap "excuse" now. We can only wait till they abandon them as well instead of heavy support.

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@"Stalvros.9217" said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

I’m wrong?

"They're a unique experience and community that we want to find better ways to support, the biggest challenge in creating more is the small audience they attract."

Do you understand the meaning of that comment?

Do you understand the meaning of what I wrote? We have more than enough confirmation that the Raid population -used- to be fine.http://dulfy.net/2016/03/05/gw2-reddit-developer-ama-summary/#Schedule

Raid in MMOs are high-end content designed for the more hardcore player. However, from an analytics standpoint, the participation is higher than other games we’ve seen. This is likely due to the nature of our progression system in GW2.

I hope you can understand the meaning of that comment.

Also:https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7g7wds/living_world_season_4_daybreak_devs_here_ask_us/dqh6g3v/

Yup! We are planning more frequent raid releases this season. I look forward to being able to share more details :)

I hope the meaning of that comment is also clear.

If the developer comments AND intentions contradict themselves then that's not my fault. The point is Raid participation used to be fine, they both admitted that by saying it's higher than in most games AND by saying that they are planning more frequent raid releases (something that didn't really happen)

Talking about the "low audience of Raids" is laughable considering in the past it wasn't low. So what happened to get us from "higher participation, more frequent releases" to "audience they attract is low"? Maybe, and I just give this idea out, it's because the entire game population is much lower? Just a maybe.

edit: and the even more laughable argument of "Raids are hard that's why they aren't being run", that would make sense if Wings 6 and 7 were actually much harder than the previous ones, since they admitted that earlier Raids were doing fine. Is it because the HOT raids were so much easier than POF raids that led to the decline? Please

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@Swagger.1459 said:“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.Ironically, what keeps being forgotten is that the emergence of holy trinity model itself was the moment that started the loss of class variation and combat flow. All the rest is a simple consequence of that initial model. Remember, that at the very core of the model lies the idea of pushing all the necessary roles towards specialized players, so that the dps needs not worry about it. The changes you bring up as something that changed the old model for the worse are nothing more than further streamlining (you can say, "perfecting") of that original idea.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:The point is Raid participation used to be fine, they both admitted that by saying it's higher than in most games AND by saying that they are planning more frequent raid releases (something that didn't really happen)We don't really know what statistics they used as a basis of that statement. For all we know they might have compared the number of raid players to population of top difficulty raid instances, or to populations of raids shortly after they were introduced (so, before most of raiders even managed to get geared enough to run them). They also said nothing about "most games" - just "other games we've seen". Which games specifically? We have no idea.Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

So yes, they were hopeful then. But, apparently, for one reason or another (either because something changed, or because they actually misread the data, like they happened to do on many other occasions) that didn't last.

edit: and the even more laughable argument of "Raids are hard that's why they aren't being run", that would make sense if Wings 6 and 7 were actually much harder than the previous ones, since they admitted that earlier Raids were doing fine. Is it because the HOT raids were so much easier than POF raids that led to the decline? PleaseConsidering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

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Ill give you a fourth one: Incosistent and unhealthy cadence of releases. 9 to 11 months for 4 bosses isnt enough to satisfy the raiders like 9 to 11 months for 1 lw patch wouldnt be enough to satisfy the lw fans.

Other than that, the dificulty scales. Yes you are right, the nm mode imo should've been easier (3 or 4 wipes at most for pugs kind of deal) and the hard mode should've been harder (at least 5 days of progression to clear a cm wing on release for the top guilds).

Players and devs need to let go of the idea that spliting content into modes will split the community and thats a bad thing. Newsflash, we are already split, and theres nothing wrong with that because we like diff types of content (hard and challenging vs easy and casual friendly).

What really making content with the aim to please everyone does is let everyone down because it isnt trully satisfying for anyone. As a result of that participation goes down as players simply stop doing it and move to other, better things (in or out of the game), the releases taking longer and longer because devs dont really see the return to the resources they invested which leads to more ppl leaving which leaves this content in limbo.

Make a zone, make boss and mob models, make lore, make music, make good rewards and then build diff fights for diff demographics with diff rewards with what you made with the goal being to specifically cater each mode to each demographic and provide them with a trully enjoyable experience.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

The second link is from after the release of Daybreak. Were the first Raid wings still "fresh" after Daybreak was released? Raid popularity was a done deal by that point, they had the data of how popular it was. And they made the comment about "more frequent releases".

Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential. Wing 5 difficulty however might have played a part.

Or maybe the fact that it took them 10 months to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role. A lot can happen in 10 months and it was up to the Season 4 content to keep the attention of the players and apparently it didn't succeed in that. The difficulty of Wing 5 should've played a role too, it's not a very good idea to "start" the new Raid series with the hardest one. And that's after promising that future Raids will be more like Spirit Vale and not like Bastion of the Penitent.

So yes, they were hopeful then. But, apparently, for one reason or another (either because something changed, or because they actually misread the data, like they happened to do on many other occasions) that didn't last.

The same can be said about their current situation when they put ALL Raids in the same basket as if they are all the same in regards to their difficulty.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Whatever they based this opinion on, it was also when first raid wings were still fresh. In short, before most people trying them gave up, and when they still thought that many other PvE players would get pushed towards that content (which never happened).

The second link is from after the release of Daybreak. Were the first Raid wings still "fresh" after Daybreak was released? Raid popularity was a done deal by that point, they had the data of how popular it was. And they made the comment about "more frequent releases".

Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential.
Wing 5
difficulty however might have played a part.

Or maybe the fact that it took them
10 months
to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role. A lot can happen in 10 months and it was up to the Season 4 content to keep the attention of the players and apparently it didn't succeed in that.

Leaving ppl farming the same content for 3/4 of a year does that to participation and engagement. Early post hot lw squad, where you at?

The difficulty of Wing 5 should've played a role too, it's not a very good idea to "start" the new Raid series with the hardest one. And that's after promising that future Raids will be more like Spirit Vale and not like Bastion of the Penitent.

You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

(not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

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@zealex.9410 said:You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

(not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

I don't know why would -anyone- like the harder content released first. Even more so since, as you said, you need to do the achievements in order.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@zealex.9410 said:You cant tell me every mmo that basicly releases raids in their game does it wrong because they keep the harder bosses for later in their tier and gw2 does it right because it doesnt follow that same structure.

(not saying you claim that mad, its a sentiment ive seen in these forums, that having the harder stuff early is somehow good?)

Esp when getting the first step of an leggie item requires to do the hardest encounters.

I don't know why would -anyone- like the harder content released first. Even more so since, as you said, you need to do the achievements in order.

Ill try and look for the quote its from pro layoffs tho iirc.

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@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

It's not that people don't want to do the content, it's that they either are or feel excluded from it because of the attitudes and reputation said content has gained from a number of it's players.Specially attitudes that become angry at any and all suggestion of more inclusive options to the content such as easier difficulty modes or story modes that would help a number of people gain vital hands on experience with raid mechanics that would allow them to go into the actual raid knowing what to do and how to recognize these mechanics.

When people are made to feel unwelcome or like they're a burden, that alone is massive incentive to just never bother trying something.. and that plays a big part in how the larger majority of players see raids in GW2.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@"Jayden Reese.9542" said:Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2? Is it the simple fact it exists? Is it they divert time to make something you don't want to do instead of more pve stuff? That toxicity exists? It's everywhere with or w/o raids just go pvp and see. It seems you want raid easier mode like wow and somehow think that won't be toxic at times. I just don't get your issue

It's not that people don't want to do the content, it's that they either are or feel excluded from it because of the attitudes and reputation said content has gained from a number of it's players.Specially attitudes that become angry at any and all suggestion of more inclusive options to the content such as easier difficulty modes or story modes that would help a number of people gain vital hands on experience with raid mechanics that would allow them to go into the actual raid knowing what to do and how to recognize these mechanics.

When people are made to feel unwelcome or like they're a burden, that alone is massive incentive to just never bother trying something.. and that plays a big part in how the larger majority of players see raids in GW2.Which I can say is the reason for me. I dont think I'm considered a casual in the game - I prolly got over 8000 hours played by now - yet I havent done a single raid, ever. Well, actually once I accidentally went solo into one, that did not go well. I have done fractal up to like... level 20 or something? I dont know. In the first tier.

Anyhow, everytime I hear about dps checks, raid builds, kp, "viable classes", I just go nope. Aint gonna waste my time going into that community just for some raid loot. I get enough elitism and salty whispers in WvW but at least there I am also free to do my own thing without being scrutinized by others. I can choose whether to follow the meta or not, sometimes I do and sometimes I dont. In raids... I'm not really going to have a choice do I? Its either get with the program or get out.

Now, I'm not saying that is a problem for me. Its not. I'm happy without raids. I dont care about them. I'm just saying that the perception of what they are and the... type... of players they attract definetly exist. And it will keep other players away from it. I highly doubt any difficulty scaling would change it. Isnt strike missions supposed to be easier raids? Havent done any of them either. Because you know... raids.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Considering that when wings 6 and 7 came, the decline was already a done deal, their difficulty level seems mostly inconsequential.
Wing 5
difficulty however might have played a part.

Or maybe the fact that it took them
10 months
to release Wing 6, even after promising more frequent releases played a very very important role.It's not like everything was completely fine until well after wing 5, and problems only started after wing 6 took too long to get released. Remember, that many raiders never even moved past
wing 4
. It was Wing 5, not the long relase window between it and wing 6, what stopped them from doing any future raid content.Yes, the top raider teams liked that w5 was harder than all wings before it, and considered w4 difficulty to be a failure, but remember, that for a lot of players doing raids it was exactly the opposite - it was w4 difficulty they'd have preferred as a baseline.

Notice also, that w6 and w7 did nothing for those players. While the difficulty of those wings was much easier for top teams that were able to perform mechanics well and had top tier dps, it was nothing of that sort for everyone else. For people that found w4 their perfect difficulty level, w6 and w7 were as much of a disappointment as w5.

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GW2 raids are in a real Catch-22 situation right now. There aren't enough resources to put them out at the pace needed to keep people playing and there aren't enough people playing them to justify the additional resources. This is compounded by the diminished number of players/income in the game overall.

Regardless of their popularity when they came out, we've known for years this was the direction raids were heading. The model was just unsustainable. Given what we are seeing, unfortunately, at this point, it's probably better to just abandon them and focus on improving other areas in the game (including integrating more difficult content into those areas).

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