Thieves ruin WvW - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Thieves ruin WvW

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  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Steele.8509 said:
    I noticed a few months ago that there was a single thief who stormed a tower by knocking down a wall without any siege. I do not know how he cheated doing it.

    maybe you just didnt see the siege, there are some siege spots that you cant see standing in the open wall and such catas usually wont get destroyed unless someone actually sees you using them.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    @Virelion.4128 said:
    Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.

    This is the problem that @SpellOfIniquity.1780 pointed out. Blanket statements and misunderstanding. It's not mobility, blinds, and a ton of evades, and then DE adding long range. It's mobility, blinds, more evades at the cost of no stability, blocks, low hp, low sustain and then DE TRADING that for long range and easy frequent stealth. And it's range isn't even that long most of the time due to being the buggiest of ranged projectiles, and not in favor of the DE. Very often I will cast Death's Judgement, a supposed 1500 range ability, when my enemy is within 1000 units of me and I will get an "out of range" message. Something you don't see on Rangers "1500" range... I've started clipping these frustrating moments in hopes to make a montage of "Out of Range but not really" clips.

    Here's one from yesterday, though I clipped it a little too early, you'd have to pause it at the end so youtube doesn't cycle.

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @Virelion.4128 said:
    Alongside with mobility, blinds and ton of evades and in case of DE add very long range.

    This is the problem that @SpellOfIniquity.1780 pointed out. Blanket statements and misunderstanding. It's not mobility, blinds, and a ton of evades, and then DE adding long range. It's mobility, blinds, more evades at the cost of no stability, blocks, low hp, low sustain and then DE TRADING that for long range and high stealth. And it's range isn't even that long most of the time due to being the buggiest of ranged projectiles, and not in favor of the DE. Very often I will cast Death's Judgement, a supposed 1500 range ability, when my enemy is within 1000 units of me and I will get an "out of range" message. Something you don't see on Rangers "1500" range... I've started clipping these frustrating moments in hopes to make a montage of "Out of Range but not really" clips.

    Here's one from yesterday, though I clipped it a little too early, you'd have to pause it at the end so youtube doesn't cycle.

    This is more to do with bullet projectiles vs arc arrows. I get "obstructed" using head shot at point blank range.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:
    This is more to do with bullet projectiles vs arc arrows. I get "obstructed" using head shot at point blank range.

    Right, but it still shouldn't happen ;\

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • Victory.2879Victory.2879 Member ✭✭✭

    Worst part is you can be marked by the thief and you can't lose the targetting - dodging doesn't work, and it stays on you until the thief is almost on the other side of the map. A good first change would be to make the targetting drop as soon as they go out of range.

    Then tone down the OPness of those skills- being hit from stealth for over half your HP despite having huge armor rating doesn't make for fun gameplay when they then stealth again instantly and run away as soon as they realise they can't down you in one burst.

    Mesmers need to be looked at too. In fact, invuln should be removed from the game completely and made into a damage reduction skill instead.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

    Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)
    Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.
    Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

    Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage again
    Fight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.
    The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

    I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • idolin.2831idolin.2831 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

    Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)
    Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.
    Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

    Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage again
    Fight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.
    The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

    I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

    You gotta excuse us power revs - at least for me jumping on DE's and oneshotting them are among my favorite things to do in WvW, especially when I come from weaver, a class with limited mobility and almost no burst to kill DE's. Of course once in a while I see these really good DE's that react super fast and are really slippery and make me slightly salty for killing me :)

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 5, 2018

    @idolin.2831 said:

    @Dawdler.8521 said:
    Yeah those dastardly OP mesmers and thieves...

    Scenario 1 I saw yesterday:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs obvious tanky rifle DE (ie two sustains)
    Fight lasting minutes, hide and seek, evades and blocks up the wazoo.
    Herald comes in from the side and instakills the thief by teleporting on him

    Scenario 2 I also saw yesterday a couple of minutes after the above:

    Hybrid mesmer (me) vs the same obvious tanky rifle DE that ran straight from hills to engage again
    Fight only lasted a 30s a minute tops, we barely got shots in at each other.
    The same herald randomly runs by and instakills the thief by teleporting on him, not even stopping

    I could almost hear the rage and I laughed harder than I have in a long while.

    ...especially when I come from weaver, a class with limited mobility and almost no burst to kill DE's.

    Your personal Weaver build may not have enough burst to kill DE's, but Weaver can absolutely build to burst DE , much faster than Rev's too and they don't have to be within melee range.

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @reddie.5861 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:
    Only thief players and anet balancing team thinks that a 11k vault followed by a 13k vault is 'balanced' and ok.

    Sure, it is balanced, if everyone has a base HP of 50k. Until that happens, just 1/4th thief damage output or remove the class altogether. It is broken, it was broken. You had 6 years and in all that time you made it worse. So time to confess that you can't balance it, and nerf it into oblivion where it belongs.

    yes meanwhile (not crying for nerf) a warrior is spanking me 4/5k/4k while doing 1111 with his axe or w/e he was doing but was same kitten hitting me, till i died.
    only if every1 would get put back in place.
    thief is by far not superior anymore at dealing dmg i can play rev and hit for 14k also while i dont even have to pop skills or be risky just hammer 2 all over the place and enjoy. :D

    and while the rev can hit for 14k, you see him coming. You see him, you see the animation, you see the effect. You can react. And afterwards, you can take him down.

    A thief vaulting you? You know it the moment you go down. No defense against it. Sure, deadeye is even worse. But that is not an excuse, just another point proving that the entire thief class is broken - and anet is doing nothing about it.

    yes i see thief vaulting me coming just like i see rev hammer coming in middle of zone blob..
    i mean get real 1v1 vault thief u can see it coming in blob no
    1v1 hammer rev u can see kitten coming in zone blob u dont.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

    Nah man, this is different. 2 vault spammers in a guild grp/zerg and they can nuke people too.

  • Turk.5460Turk.5460 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

    Nah man, this is different. 2 vault spammers in a guild grp/zerg and they can nuke people too.

    Oh, I thought they were whining about Vault in a 1v1/small scale setting - which never was an issue to any opponents with a few brain cells. So they're complaining about a niche build that would be destroyed by a few red circles placed in it's landing zone where the Thief can't dodge away from until after the punish frames allow massive counter-damage? Smh...

    Fort Aspenwood
    [ShW] Jekkies

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    nah, they are often saved by IF and thern DS away.

  • Klypto.1703Klypto.1703 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sylosi.6503 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:

    @DeceiverX.8361 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Adamarc.7463 said:

    @Turk.5460 said:

    @ProverbsofHell.2307 said:
    Sacrificing a utility JUST for thieves is insane imo.

    Most DE builds are so dependent on Stealth, even just for a few seconds, that they are required to use Shadow Meld as their elite in case of Reveal.

    Just shows how badly they are designed for WvW.

    A bad design because a DE is pigeon holed into an elite skill or for some other reason? Any suggestions for a replacement?

    Cough

    Anything based on sustained stealth and/or capable of sustained stealth and safe burst damage is literally impossible to balance and make fun to play as/against based on how the combat in this game works.

    The idea of more stealth on the thief, especially as a ranged burst damage dealer, never should have made it past the early stages of the drawing board.

    The casuals need it, to overperform their capabilities as casuals.

    As opposed to non-casuals who need a game that aims for them, is full of passives, is largely slow paced and is an imbalanced cheesefest where the meta cheese carries very, very hard and a game mode that is competitively dismal, to "overperform their capabilities".

    Exactly and anet is going to nerf us by making a new finisher that creates tissues when we finish them.

  • LetoII.3782LetoII.3782 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Turk.5460 said:
    Is someone seriously complaining about Vault of all things? In 2018? That wasn't even an issue when staff was relevant. The competent staff Daredevils would barely touch vault, and instead rely mostly on Staff 3, Dodge, and Autos...

    There was a subsect of the Daredevil community deeply in love with vault (miss you nogas) but I agree, vault teefs are my favorite.. Easy to track, easy to anticipate.

    [HUNT] the predatory instinct

  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    Anet ruined WvW way before before the newest specialization put the last nail in this coffin :)

  • Simonoly.4352Simonoly.4352 Member ✭✭✭

    Shadow Meld does, at times, feel like a bit of a design mistake, especially as an ammo skill. But I'd rather see the cast-time upped to 0.75-1 sec so that a vigilant player has more opportunity to actively prevent the cast. There are lots of instances in the game where cast times need to be increased to just make disrupting opponents more valid.

    I guess Death's Judgement could do without being unblockable, but I think Anet probably just slapped it on there because it would be harsh for a stray reflect to potentially cause you to one-shot yourself. Ideally we'd have a category in game of non-reflectable projectiles so the block still works but no reflect occurs.

  • MUDse.7623MUDse.7623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited November 9, 2018

    @Simonoly.4352 said:
    I guess Death's Judgement could do without being unblockable, but I think Anet probably just slapped it on there because it would be harsh for a stray reflect to potentially cause you to one-shot yourself. Ideally we'd have a category in game of non-reflectable projectiles so the block still works but no reflect occurs.

    that is not the reason for it being unblockable. before the rework it was also reflectable and would not cause you to get oneshot, i often even survived a reflected one while i was in full berserk. it wont kill you as most of your damage modifiers to this shot (malice bonus etc.) do not apply to the reflected one, the reflected shot has just base damage with the power of the deadeye and the crit chance/ crit damage/ modifiers of the one reflecting.
    before the rework we had cursed bullet as unblockable and i think we need at least one unblockable shot there, because there are builds with pretty much 100% uptime of projectile hate, many of the roaming mirages for example and as group effort its even more likely that you will face alot of reflects (a reason why people didnt like rangers for their zergs).. this unblockable however doesnt have to be on deaths judgement.
    i personally would prefer instead of deaths judgement to have my rifle 2 skills be unblockable as they dont require me to invest stealth for being able to use them, they hit more reliably and they provide malice. when my target has near 100% uptime on projectile hate i can only use 0-1 malice DJs wich will mostly miss, have a low frequency and dont hit too much, if i could however fire some rifle 2 in there i could then use the malice to unload the damage in a devastating backstab while having more sustained pressure than trying death's judgements.

  • I completely agree with thieves ruining WvW. There is a massive balance problem here going unnoticed since a long time. The fact that a class has high stealth (even permastealth), the highest movement-speed, high evasion and super high dmg should ring every balance alarm bell.
    Just the fact to engage and disengage any combat at will is a huge advantage. Two thiefs being able to be uncatchable by a whole zerg and recapping a keep should not be possible.
    Strong adjustment overdue!!

  • the fact is, i run into many many new players and they don't go to WvW, because the skill level is imposing. I've seen it over and over, i go to a BL, and a couple new players get absolutely pulverized by a thief. New people wont mind getting defeated, but i see them get assassinated from a thief who pops out of stealth and one shots them. Thief class doesn't belong in the game because the people that are really good at thief all gravitate to single target assassination (which is cool, don't get me wrong) but NOT a good way to give new players the time needed for them to find something to love about WvW. Every encounter I see, a thief will employ the ooc regen 'ability'? skill doesn't matter what it is or how it works, or its 'moral' etc. ..bla bla bla. The issue i speak of is we NEED new players. thiefs that have no goal other than to find some single roamer and grief him as he is trying to take a camp or a monument for his daily is cheesey and underhanded. Mostly that dude is gonna say 'forget wvw, ill go play something else'. They have nothing invested in the game and many of these predator thieves are too ego-centric to realize they are killing off the very thing that makes wvw fun..LOTS OF PLAYER. your like lions eating all the zebras or some kitten..your gonna go extinct. so cool your kitten, if u see a single dude with NO rank..leave him be unless he attacks you first. Employ some honor if you can.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Last post was from 2018 lol

  • Svarty.8019Svarty.8019 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Last post was from 2018 lol

    You're supposed to use existing topics rather than begin your own, if one exists, iirc.

    On topic:
    I want to register my disappointment that the Stealth Trap wasn't changed yet so that Deadeye elite doesn't work on it.

    Thief OP? Better nerf Scourge ... again.
    Hashtag BlameMcLain

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 14, 2020

    Not gonna lie...I came in here hoping to see someone complaining about running into a unique condi DE that utilized a lot of immobs who wears a lot of white and green as they imagine what goes on in ppls heads when they cant move and when they break free, they get immob again.

    Hate that DE :p

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    Co-Leader of SOmething inAPpropriate {SOAP}

  • primatos.5413primatos.5413 Member ✭✭✭

    the overall missing balance is ruining wvw .. it´s all up to the developers

  • Mokk.2397Mokk.2397 Member ✭✭✭

    OP maybe from 2018 or 2020 thieves still need a 50% reduction in stealth . Thieves are waaaaay over powered because of the excess stealth and will remain over powered until the Devs pull their heads out of their back sides and look .They should never have created a counter to a counter on any class and Shadow Meld was the biggest kitten up they could have made.

  • in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.
    stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Mokk.2397 said:
    OP maybe from 2018 or 2020 thieves still need a 50% reduction in stealth . Thieves are waaaaay over powered because of the excess stealth and will remain over powered until the Devs pull their heads out of their back sides and look .They should never have created a counter to a counter on any class and Shadow Meld was the biggest kitten up they could have made.

    Hard CC, stability, boon corrupt and party cleanse might have something to say about counters to counters.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.
    stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

    In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.
    A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.
    A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.
    They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.
    Especially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.

  • reddie.5861reddie.5861 Member ✭✭✭

    @mrfrostybeer.9328 said:
    the fact is, i run into many many new players and they don't go to WvW, because the skill level is imposing. I've seen it over and over, i go to a BL, and a couple new players get absolutely pulverized by a thief. New people wont mind getting defeated, but i see them get assassinated from a thief who pops out of stealth and one shots them. Thief class doesn't belong in the game because the people that are really good at thief all gravitate to single target assassination (which is cool, don't get me wrong) but NOT a good way to give new players the time needed for them to find something to love about WvW. Every encounter I see, a thief will employ the ooc regen 'ability'? skill doesn't matter what it is or how it works, or its 'moral' etc. ..bla bla bla. The issue i speak of is we NEED new players. thiefs that have no goal other than to find some single roamer and grief him as he is trying to take a camp or a monument for his daily is cheesey and underhanded. Mostly that dude is gonna say 'forget wvw, ill go play something else'. They have nothing invested in the game and many of these predator thieves are too ego-centric to realize they are killing off the very thing that makes wvw fun..LOTS OF PLAYER. your like lions eating all the zebras or some kitten..your gonna go extinct. so cool your kitten, if u see a single dude with NO rank..leave him be unless he attacks you first. Employ some honor if you can.

    so u necro dead topic, but ill answer..

    a thief doing as u said in first few lines (as i stopped reading) isnt a good thief.. i mean i can do all day long what ur saying.
    personally i dont get any joy out of bashing some1 who is a free kill.. if i wanted this id would go PvE more rewarding and same kitten..
    i rather lose hard fights then win the easy no brain fights all day long.

    so tbh i dont know any thief who enjoys doing this kitten 1 bang over and over and over again unless they are trolling some1 who just talked to much kitten somewhere ;)

  • Bassdeff.1895Bassdeff.1895 Member ✭✭✭

    The thing I hate about thieves and mesmers are the amount of time they make you waste. Very difficult to lock down, and if they decide to drag the fight out you could be there for a long kitten time. Now, I just ignore them. If they stop attacking, good , I can move on to better more rewarding things. If they decide to keep attacking then I just let them kill me, so I can move on to better more rewarding things.

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    I think you mean the stealth mechanics in this game ruin WvW?

  • @noot.8641 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.
    stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

    In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.

    i dont think infinite stealth is balanced :/

    A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.

    seems not very fair / balanced... :/

    A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.
    They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.

    agree

    Especially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.

    agree

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    This isn’t solely a thief issue. Mesmer is just as unfun to play against, granted they can’t invis for as long.

    Both professions need some tweaking but I don’t think most people understand the concept of fun game design.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    This isn’t solely a thief issue. Mesmer is just as unfun to play against, granted they can’t invis for as long.

    Both professions need some tweaking but I don’t think most people understand the concept of fun game design.

    'I had no special training at all; I am completely self taught.
    I don’t fit the mold of a visual arts designer or a graphic designer.
    I just had a strong concept about what a game designer is.
    Someone who designs projects to make people happy.
    That’s a game designer’s purpose.'

    -Toru Iwatani,
    Creator of Pac-Man

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Dralor.3701 said:
    This isn’t solely a thief issue. Mesmer is just as unfun to play against, granted they can’t invis for as long.

    Both professions need some tweaking but I don’t think most people understand the concept of fun game design.

    'I had no special training at all; I am completely self taught.
    I don’t fit the mold of a visual arts designer or a graphic designer.
    I just had a strong concept about what a game designer is.
    Someone who designs projects to make people happy.
    That’s a game designer’s purpose.'

    -Toru Iwatani,
    Creator of Pac-Man

    That’s cool but I’m not sure what point you are trying to make?

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So....
    Stealth should be nerfed right? XD

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Aeolus.3615Aeolus.3615 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

    +1
    Exactly this.
    I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

    +1
    Exactly this.
    I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

    Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Burnfall.9573Burnfall.9573 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 15, 2020

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

    +1
    Exactly this.
    I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

    Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

    I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:

    @noot.8641 said:

    @bluberblasen.9684 said:
    in a competitive game ( talking more pvp side than wvw ) a stealth class should NEVER ever exist.
    stealth is NOT balanceable ( apart from RTS games like star craft )

    In WoW the rogue with its infinite stealth is pretty balanced in wotlk expansion.

    i dont think infinite stealth is balanced :/

    A rogue can go stealth when ever and where ever he want for as long as he wants.

    seems not very fair / balanced... :/

    A geared rogue can 1shot low geared targets, but not ppl with pvp gear that have enough resi.
    They should nerf every 1shot ability to the ground.

    agree

    Especially warrior rifle, i think the dmg nerf is not enough.

    agree

    Actually WoW stealth is balanced around other things that don't exist in gw2.
    You cannot use regular stealth while in combat, but you can use vanish which had a 5min cooldown(now 2mins), as your get out of jail free card, so stealth is used to initiate and disengage from combat, and then they move into using cc's for combat, which in the beginning was a problem with stunlocking for like 10s being a thing (which means it took them that long to kill you not one shot from stealth), diminishing returns from cc was also a thing in wow.
    It's detectable if you're running around in front of someone with a visual and audio cue, which means you actually have to approach the target from behind.
    Taking damage and attacking breaks stealth.
    It use to have a movement speed penalty.
    Pure melee class, they don't have a 1500 range rifle build.
    With those limitations it's easier to have it on infinite duration and 10s cooldown(now 2s) that isn't completely spammable.

    But gw2 stealth for thieves is built to constantly use it in combat for damage and support.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Permastealth is a broken mechanics.
    IMHO they should cap at 6 seconds the time you can stay invisible: if you exceed the 6 seconds limit you will get revealed for 4 seconds (so you can not permastealth and 2-3 thieves can no more stack stealth each others).
    Remove the Detected! effect after marked and rework Shadow Refuge (increasing the healing per pulse for example as trade-off to the loss of invisibility).

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    One thing I think would help balance out stealth is reveal if any damage is taken.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SehferViega.8725 said:

    @Gondolph.7201 said:
    currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.
    So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

    that is no fun anymore.

    Permastealth is a broken mechanics.
    IMHO they should cap at 6 seconds the time you can stay invisible: if you exceed the 6 seconds limit you will get revealed for 4 seconds (so you can not permastealth and 2-3 thieves can no more stack stealth each others).
    Remove the Detected! effect after marked and rework Shadow Refuge (increasing the healing per pulse for example as trade-off to the loss of invisibility).

    I would say 10-4 would be more suitable

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Burnfall.9573 said:

    @Aeolus.3615 said:
    I think problem with thieves and stealth overall it’s broken due bugs and exploits being used, if that gets resolved stealth gets fixed.

    +1
    Exactly this.
    I also want to mention; this is the exactly reason why original Anet did not implement them in Guild Wars 1

    Exploits and bugs like what? State your case.

    I would like to mention them but Anet will immediately remove my post. I would like to also mention; if only Anet kept the original Anet visions of Guild Wars 1; none of this would've been happening. In fact; we would be in a place of throwing ideas of what would make Guild Wars 2 greater

    Sounds more like an unjustified argument tbh. A lot of people are quick to say that thief stealth is broken because of exploits and bugs, but nobody seems to want to actually name them when challenged, and most people that say this also don't seem to actually play thief themselves so it makes me wonder if they even could point it out. If it's a genuine exploit or bug, submit a report and get it fixed. If it's just you not liking or understanding how something works, you probably need to just accept it and move on.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Jugglemonkey.8741Jugglemonkey.8741 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It's also pretty hilarious how a class that's NOT EVEN META for WvW group play is apparently ruining WvW. Just pointing that out.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.
    “If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.” - John Steinbeck

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:
    It's also pretty hilarious how a class that's NOT EVEN META for WvW group play is apparently ruining WvW. Just pointing that out.

    The hate is real!

  • XenesisII.1540XenesisII.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    They should bring back ghost thieves, they weren't meta.

    ^ Another derailing post - Anet
    Perma stealth is needed to outrun zergs - Thieves
    A skill overpowered? just nerf their dodge, balanced. - Anet
    There's no power creep you just don't recognize more people hitting you - Flat Earther

  • A class with high access to vertical mobility, stealth and evades has free reign in the large open fields of WvW. There are some builds that are durable or evasive enough to stay aggressive while in melee range ( eg. staff Daredevil, Pistolwhip builds ) but many cannot afford to trade hits and heavily rely on hard kiting and spiking.

    There are numerous areas in WvW that cannot be teleported to or that are awkward to maneuver. Narrow hills, ledges, etc. are the best places to linger near when dealing with Thieves. First consider whether or not the location is more beneficial to you or to them, if the former, use it as a pillar of defense to force the Thief in to over extending. Next, if extending beyond it's location, return to it when/if you're pressured to force the Thief in to a bad position if they want to continue pressuring you.

    You will not always have the advantage of terrain, but it is an important thing to consider. Some builds may not want to force melee fights or may be stronger in an open field ( eg. Ranger ) but that doesn't mean you can't use certain locations to cushion you when dealing with something that has as much mobility as a Thief. There are more mechanics to combat than just skills and traits so always remember to consider these variables.

    Stealth in general is a poorly designed mechanic, but with practice, there are plenty of tells that can make dealing with it much easier. I won't disagree that there are times you can't do much to fight against it, such as when there are multiple Deadeyes targeting you, but times like those ( outnumbered ) will be just as unfortunate for you whether they have stealth or not.

    I do think stealth can be used excessively by certain builds and can carry people through otherwise fight deciding mistakes, but I don't think Thieves ruin WvW. I think they chase away the people who shouldn't be in WvW anyway.

    Witchery [YWY] | Maguuma | Diamond Legend
    Adorable creatures with unacceptable features ... ♫

  • Dralor.3701Dralor.3701 Member ✭✭✭

    @SpellOfIniquity.1780 said:
    A class with high access to vertical mobility, stealth and evades has free reign in the large open fields of WvW. There are some builds that are durable or evasive enough to stay aggressive while in melee range ( eg. staff Daredevil, Pistolwhip builds ) but many cannot afford to trade hits and heavily rely on hard kiting and spiking.

    There are numerous areas in WvW that cannot be teleported to or that are awkward to maneuver. Narrow hills, ledges, etc. are the best places to linger near when dealing with Thieves. First consider whether or not the location is more beneficial to you or to them, if the former, use it as a pillar of defense to force the Thief in to over extending. Next, if extending beyond it's location, return to it when/if you're pressured to force the Thief in to a bad position if they want to continue pressuring you.

    You will not always have the advantage of terrain, but it is an important thing to consider. Some builds may not want to force melee fights or may be stronger in an open field ( eg. Ranger ) but that doesn't mean you can't use certain locations to cushion you when dealing with something that has as much mobility as a Thief. There are more mechanics to combat than just skills and traits so always remember to consider these variables.

    Stealth in general is a poorly designed mechanic, but with practice, there are plenty of tells that can make dealing with it much easier. I won't disagree that there are times you can't do much to fight against it, such as when there are multiple Deadeyes targeting you, but times like those ( outnumbered ) will be just as unfortunate for you whether they have stealth or not.

    I do think stealth can be used excessively by certain builds and can carry people through otherwise fight deciding mistakes, but I don't think Thieves ruin WvW. I think they chase away the people who shouldn't be in WvW anyway.

    Some thief builds are fine but those relying so heavily on stealth are not. There is no counter play and there is no fun to be had by anyone having to fight them. Saying someone doesn’t belong in WvW because they don’t enjoy fighting a build with infinite resets is ridiculous.

    If anything abet has just made it worse with deadeye when it was already a huge problem.