CondiRev WvW/PvP weapon

[lodjur.1284]

There's similar threads but since this isn't the necro forum I figured a new one was in order given the old one's age. Especially as there's a big balance patch.

Mace is greatAxe no is longer really a condi weapon, 1 stack 1 sec torment is 1/5th of an autoattack (will still be okay as a utility weapon for condi rev tho)Shortbow is a meme (mostly cause of the 3 skill being comically bad and none of the other skills being busted enough to compensate)Shield is a meme (world's tiniest heal and an actively suicidal "block")Staff is power (decent defensively but making yourself completely unable to do any relevant dmg for 10 sec is way too big of a tradeoff)Hammer is powerMH Sword is powerOH Sword is power (and lost it's block sadly)

In shortRework shortbow 3, Allow shortbow 4 to be used no matter what direction you're facing.and/orMake staff also do 1 stack of torment on autoattacks (ie a worse weapon dmgwise than mace, but at least not 0 dmg)

[mindcircus.1506]

Now... try and solve the problem without power creep.

[lodjur.1284]

@mindcircus.1506 said:Now... try and solve the problem without power creep.

I am all for avoiding powercreep, but having 2 functional weapons for condirev isn't asking for all that much. Buffing a weapon that's essentially a joke isn't necessarily powercreep.

Avoiding powercreep doesn't mean you cant ever buff anything, it just means that you can't solve everything with buffs (tho I fail to see what you would nerf to give condirev 2 viable weaponsets). I am all for this patch overall, I love that it's almost entirely nerfs (I am not actually ironic), but this has been a problem since revenant's release.

[doogal.9368]

This thread helped me realize, I never use shield 5.I run the divine booner as a dps with long azz buffs (glint/jalis) with salvation-retribution-herald (I've always been partial to the survival side of the game)

facet of nature

[draxynnic.3719]

@mindcircus.1506 said:Now... try and solve the problem without power creep.

Create a new weapon.

Aside from that, though... a lot of revenant weapons are or are going to be in a position where a bit of buffing is what they need. Hammer is almost unseen out of WvW pirate meta and PvE situations where you need a ranged weapon and that's what you've got. Condi shortbow is a meme (power shortbow can be made to work, since overall shortbow is a hybrid and the poorly functioning skills are where most of the condition weighting is).

I probably wouldn't go adding to staff, sword, or mace, since they're all doing okay. Shortbow skills 2 and 3 need fixing, and making hammer a hybrid weapon at the cost of some straight power damage might well be a more elegant solution to pirate ship meta than what they're doing.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

I support adding condi to staff. Shortbow is an elite spec weapon. There are two specs (core and herald) that cannot use it, and it's absurd if your core profession cannot have a full set of condi weapons. Offhand axe barely fits the role coupled with mace, but after that? There's literally nothing. Shield, hammer, sword (both main and offhand) are all power weapons. Staff has 0 condies on it.

I agree with OP that staff should receive condition application. Though not on auto attack, but rather opportunistic one tied to skills 2,3 and 5.

My proposition:Mender's Rebuke - 3 stacks of torment in aoe along with healing detonation (so enemies have fair chance to move out of the way, or if they stay on you, they get punished).Whirling Mists - burning or confusion on blocking an attack. If with internal cooldown, then it should be stronger (like 2 stacks of burn, 3 of confusion)Surge of the mists - 4 stacks of confusion or 6 stacks of torment when interrupting an enemy action

This functionality (or parts of) could be added with a trait if it's too op to have it baseline.But yeah, one weapon gated behind elite spec does not justify the condi weapon shortage for core and herald.

[Yasai.3549]

If Mace is gonna be the "heavy" Condi weapon, I feel like Rev could use a "light" Condi weapon as well.

Something like Mainhand Axe would be a simple and great addition.

It doesn't even have to be super complicated with its skills :

• Basic 3 hit Auto which focuses Torment
• A skill which has some range to apply Bleed/Torment/Burning
• A skill which multi hits and inflicts Bleed/Torment/Burning.

Axe offhand would be a perfect fit for it as the mobility set.

Regarding Staff....It's primarily a defensive weapon set so idk about seriously allowing it to inflict conditions.

I think it would be good to at least put some Chill onto it so it works with Abyssal Chill.

I wouldn't mind Chill on Warding Rift and maybe an Ice Field for 5 seconds on Mender's Rebuke.And to make it fun, we can have SotM be a Whirl finisher.

[draxynnic.3719]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I support adding condi to staff. Shortbow is an elite spec weapon. There are two specs (core and herald) that cannot use it, and it's absurd if your core profession cannot have a full set of condi weapons. Offhand axe barely fits the role coupled with mace, but after that? There's literally nothing. Shield, hammer, sword (both main and offhand) are all power weapons. Staff has 0 condies on it.

Shield isn't a power weapon - neither of its skills do any damage at all. It's purely a sustain option. Which does have the effect that it's equally (in)effective for both power and condition builds...

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@draxynnic.3719 said:

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:I support adding condi to staff. Shortbow is an elite spec weapon. There are two specs (core and herald) that cannot use it, and it's absurd if your core profession cannot have a full set of condi weapons. Offhand axe barely fits the role coupled with mace, but after that? There's literally nothing. Shield, hammer, sword (both main and offhand) are all power weapons. Staff has 0 condies on it.

Shield isn't a power weapon - neither of its skills do any damage at all. It's purely a sustain option. Which does have the effect that it's equally (in)effective for both power and condition builds...

True that, my bad. The general point still stands - core and herald are suffering condi weapon shortage.

[Arkantos.7460]

ithink you can still conert chill into torment, so make a Frozenherald

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

@Arkantos.7460 said:ithink you can still conert chill into torment, so make a Frozenherald

Unfortunately after the changes to Call to anguish (now a leap with no torment application and only single chill applied) that trait lost it's value. The other sources of chill are either too small or too costly (banish enchatment post upcoming balance patch) to use as a viable torment source.

[draxynnic.3719]

@ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

@Arkantos.7460 said:ithink you can still conert chill into torment, so make a Frozenherald

Unfortunately after the changes to Call to anguish (now a leap with no torment application and only single chill applied) that trait lost it's value. The other sources of chill are either too small or too costly (banish enchatment post upcoming balance patch) to use as a viable torment source.

I think Banish Enchantment is going to get that synergy back, though, since that's going to be inflicting three packets of Chill. Whether that makes it worth using is another question. Conversely, the changes to Precision Strike look like they'll reduce the potential to hit one target with three stacks of Chill, but replace it with more potential to inflict AoE Chill, which might bring back some functionality for the trait with sword.

But sword as a quasi-condi weapon is massively losing out through the loss of Rampant Vex.

Best case scenario for condi core revs and heralds as an alternative to just running double mace is probably going to be a similar approach to condi mesmers using sword - the weapon itself is there for defensive and/or mobility purposes while the condition application comes from another source. But even then, application of damaging conditions on legends other than Mallyx is pretty weak - Glint has Elemental Blast, while Renegede has Razorclaw's It-Would-Probably-Be-A-Buff-If-This-Was-Just-Removed-And-The-Space-Left-Blank-So-People-Don't-Accidentally-Waste-Energy-On-It.

[Shao.7236]

Axe is the best weapon for conditions not because of just the weapon itself but what it allows you do. All those effects and CC aren't just for you to press, they have purposes.

[lodjur.1284]

@Shao.7236 said:Axe is the best weapon for conditions not because of just the weapon itself but what it allows you do. All those effects and CC aren't just for you to press, they have purposes.

Yes of course. Even losing the little bit of torment/confusion on axe 5 it will still be a great weapon to go with mace as a utility weapon. But there's still absolutely a lack of weapons for condirev. I am okay with the axe nerf as when you use axe you do still have good damaging but what I find more problematic is that there isn't a second off-hand weapon or a 2 hand weapon that isn't terrible to use together with your Mace+Axe setup. An offensive off-hand weapon choice would also be fairly nice given that axe is now placed firmly in the utility category.

[Shao.7236]

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Axe is the best weapon for conditions not because of just the weapon itself but what it allows you do. All those effects and CC aren't just for you to press, they have purposes.

Yes of course. Even losing the little bit of torment/confusion on axe 5 it will still be a great weapon to go with mace as a utility weapon. But there's still absolutely a lack of weapons for condirev. I am okay with the axe nerf as when you use axe you do still have good damaging but what I find more problematic is that there isn't a second off-hand weapon or a 2 hand weapon that isn't terrible to use together with your Mace+Axe setup. An offensive off-hand weapon choice would also be fairly nice given that axe is now placed firmly in the utility category.

You can blame Anet for listening to the players that said Axe 4 has an identity crisis that requires removing Chill/Slow on Sword 5 and not putting back Duelist Preparation with the newer Shackling Wave, only making a certain amount of blocks required to riposte.

Sigil of Intelligence does wonders for Revenant as legend swaps do the work, Axe 4 and Sword 5 big hitters are no exception to hybrid models.

Because that would make for an interesting turn to not be forced running Staff all the time, reminder that Revenant was designed to only have one weapon set afterall.

[Downstate.4697]

If they fixed shortbow 3 it would actually be a good condi weapon.

Frankly I'm pretty interested in transferring conditions when you swap legends. You could self stack torment on yourself then transfer it. Chill is gonna be important specifically for mace since it allows you to land autos easier. I personally I think mace would benefit more if the 3rd auto did like 2s of weakness instead of applying poison. They could get rid of weakness on echoing eruption and give it an evade frame instead.

[Shao.7236]

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:If they fixed shortbow 3 it would actually be a good condi weapon.

Frankly I'm pretty interested in transferring conditions when you swap legends. You could self stack torment on yourself then transfer it. Chill is gonna be important specifically for mace since it allows you to land autos easier. I personally I think mace would benefit more if the 3rd auto did like 2s of weakness instead of applying poison. They could get rid of weakness on echoing eruption and give it an evade frame instead.

The poison is fine, it spreads to 3 people and can last a while, great cleave.

Mace 3 weakness is what makes it so great because you add conditions over conditions that are beneficial for yourself to stay in range. Blindness is often added.

As for transferring conditions, you've been missing out. That's been possible since 2018, that's how condi rev been so great to play.

One of the things I do often as core is IR > FE > Axe 4 > Mallyx Swap > Elite > Mace 3. In between the swap you can also re-cc with CtA from IR if there's a stunbreak or Axe 4 misses, still chills and counts as a double CC since it's going to be a dazing strike.

Otherwise Axe 4 is my go to secure transfers because it's unblockable and both Jalis and Mallyx add conditions on top.

I made a suggestion in this section for shortbow 3 to become a circle of arrow forward than a obnoxious "LiNe" that requires a distance for optimal damage, it's usually best used when people run out of the AoE's but everyone would do Scorchshot to stop the person first regardless.

[Downstate.4697]

@Shao.7236 said:

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:If they fixed shortbow 3 it would actually be a good condi weapon.

Frankly I'm pretty interested in transferring conditions when you swap legends. You could self stack torment on yourself then transfer it. Chill is gonna be important specifically for mace since it allows you to land autos easier. I personally I think mace would benefit more if the 3rd auto did like 2s of weakness instead of applying poison. They could get rid of weakness on echoing eruption and give it an evade frame instead.

The poison is fine, it spreads to 3 people and can last a while, great cleave.

Mace 3 weakness is what makes it so great because you add conditions over conditions that are beneficial for yourself to stay in range. Blindness is often added.

As for transferring conditions, you've been missing out. That's been possible since 2018, that's how condi rev been so great to play.

One of the things I do often as core is IR > FE > Axe 4 > Mallyx Swap > Elite > Mace 3. In between the swap you can also re-cc with CtA from IR if there's a stunbreak or Axe 4 misses, still chills and counts as a double CC since it's going to be a dazing strike.

Otherwise Axe 4 is my go to secure transfers because it's unblockable and both Jalis and Mallyx add conditions on top.

I made a suggestion in this section for shortbow 3 to become a circle of arrow forward than a obnoxious "LiNe" that requires a distance for optimal damage, it's usually best used when people run out of the AoE's but everyone would do Scorchshot to stop the person first regardless.

Personally I'd just change it to tab target and reduce the arrows to 5 to compensate. I'd rather get a reliable 5 hits in on my target instead of 1 or 2 with the way it currently works

[lodjur.1284]

@Shao.7236 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:If they fixed shortbow 3 it would actually be a good condiI made a suggestion in this section for shortbow 3 to become a circle of arrow forward than a obnoxious "LiNe" that requires a distance for optimal damage, it's usually best used when people run out of the AoE's but everyone would do Scorchshot to stop the person first regardless.

@FrownyClown.8402 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@FrownyClown.8402 said:Personally I'd just change it to tab target and reduce the arrows to 5 to compensate. I'd rather get a reliable 5 hits in on my target instead of 1 or 2 with the way it currently works

Anything but the current state would be an improvement

[Buran.3796]

I just ended my first byzantium chest in this 20th PvP season playing exclusively a condi Herald; the build is a iteration from the PvE one from Hizen but still I was able to end in gold III ~1400 (my best this season was 1420) with 48 wins over 87 matches. Is a Mallyx/Glint build with corruption/retribution/herald and mace+axe/mace+shield:

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?PmABkel7lpQIMLKidRSMMCiJSgsCSgj7SdrD-zZoOleFBRLBaXIkwCwfDA

The build works good enough at that level; is strong at small skirmishes despite lacking empty vessel and any kind of stability; mostly due the large amount of cc it can inflict, the high HP and the way in which both Pulsating Pestilence and Embrace the Darkness scale scale when you have multiple foes in range. The main issues are fighting against Thieves with interrupt chains and some Spellbreakers which can ignore/recover from conditions very easily. The axe is great due the fast cast times (0.5 secs) and the mixed tools that offers; the shield is weak but #5 combined with Embrace the Darkness has its uses.

I think I'll test the build from Cevni (Renegade with Mallyx + Jalis and mace + axe/short bow, to see which one provides me more fun/better results. I think that after the incoming patch the damage from power Herald (and most of +1 builds from other classes) will be too low to overcome the bunker builds, so I'm more interested in pure tanks or condi bruisers than in anything burst-oriented.

[Gustaff.6581]

Whats the diference between off hand sword and axe anyway? both of them have a shadowstep and a control skill.

Sevenshot is also a funny skill, 7 stacks of torment of 7 seconds each, just wth? i dont know what to do with this skill. I really like to buff SB 2 or SB 4 an make this something defensive, like set a trap or whatever.

[lodjur.1284]

@Conqueror.3682 said:Whats the diference between off hand sword and axe anyway? both of them have a shadowstep and a control skill.

Not very much anymore, axe has a bit better CC, sword has a lot more power dmg

Sevenshot is also a funny skill, 7 stacks of torment of 7 seconds each, just wth? i dont know what to do with this skill. I really like to buff SB 2 or SB 4 an make this something defensive, like set a trap or whatever.

Sevenshot is more realistically 1-2 stacks of torment, 3 of you're lucky, 7 is downed people when the stars align and you happen to be at the exact right distance

[Shao.7236]

@Conqueror.3682 said:Whats the diference between off hand sword and axe anyway? both of them have a shadowstep and a control skill.

They've pretty much ruined the sword by removing the block. Both weapons were similar but had slight different means that would achieve better outcomes compared one another.

Axe 4 is meant to help the player do whatever they need close up by having an unblockable factor and conditions with a delay that lets the user think.

Sword 5 would do the same but without the need for a hit and the unblockable factor in favor of power, without the conditions now, it's pretty much pointless to have as a hybrid weapon and the block being gone makes Staff mandatory as a Revenant weapon. There was a delay for the same reasons as Axe 4, most of all Revenant skills have a delay for those reasons.

Duelist Preparation should have stayed with the new Shackling Waves based on the amount of hits blocked while the newer Deathstrike was the better choice over the old pulling skill.

[Yasai.3549]

@Conqueror.3682 said:Whats the diference between off hand sword and axe anyway? both of them have a shadowstep and a control skill.

OH Sword is more versatile because it has a Shadowstep that can be target casted and still teleports yu to the target.This is better for chasing and running.

Also it does more damage.

Axe needs yu to land the Axe hit for the follow up, but it has 900 range, so yur threat range is further reaching.

[Konrad Curze.5130]

@mindcircus.1506 said:Now... try and solve the problem without power creep.

you could buff the ever loving shit out of rev's condi weapons and still wouldnt classify as power creep, because the base is so jawbreakingly low that even enormous buffs would still barely bump them to the average