Renegade trade off

[bravan.3876]

@shadowpass.4236 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:Just going to mention that renewed focus is the only elite skill in the game that gives an invuln. It's also by far the weakest one in the game. Seeing that you can't res, stomp or even use skyhammer platforms while channeling it. It also has almost triple the cooldown of obsidian flesh. There's absolutely no reason you should ever be able to cast through obsidian flesh rofl.

Edit: I guess the invuln on Earth shield conjure is weaker. But no one uses that.

Renewed Focus' effectiveness scales depending on how strong the Virtues it resets are.

On Core Guard and DH it might not make that big of a difference but it's super strong on Firebrand when you get the option to reset 15-24 impactful skills.

It has an pretty strong additional effect (according to core Virtues being not that much weaker than FB Virtues in the opinion of some Guard mains) it is a pretty strong second reward no matter what Guard spec. First it means the Guard is not doomed into total passivity because during you are invuln something happens on your skillbar, just that the player doesn't even need to do that himself, the game automatically does it for him. And you reset the access to the whole class mechanic with it, some pretty strong skills with 2 having high cds ( @shadowpass.4236 it only resets the access to tomes not all cds of the skills in the tomes, bu tyes those cds are kind of short anyway) . For that big extra reward it consumes an elite slot (what is not even necessary a bad thing, like Mesmer mains would love to have portal as elite so it doesn't consume an utility slot, means it depends on how good utilites/weaponskills are if this is bad or good, imagine giving up Judgment's Interention for RF?). It has a higher cd and it locks out of skill usage from playerside (without making it completely passive because it includes the action of automatically reseting other cds). Compared to Ele or Mesmer invuln it has no restriction in accessibility (Mesmer needs to build up clones for an equally long duration, Ele needs to be on right attunement what might even be on cd when needed) and no additionl costs aside from the cd itself (Ele needs to consume 2 cds, from attunement swap and the skill itself, Mesmer invuln consumes all class resources instead refreshing them aside from the cd of the skill itself).

All in all for all the restrictions and higher costs aside from the cd of the skill itself and the lower reward (only invuln nothing else) it is absolutely fair, that Ele and Mesmer have no skill lockout and a shorter cd on the skill itself. While Engis invuln is kind of in the middle of both, having cd lower than Guard and more than Mesmer/ Ele but getting a stunbreak and a very strong aoe stealthskill in additon for only 10 secs cd more on the invuln and the skill lock out. If you add skill lock out to Obsidian or Distortion they will be so much obvious and by far worse than Guard and Engi invuln skills that i am rly wondering why ppl even try to ask for it. Not to mention that Mesmer and (at least the squishy Ele builds like FA) are build around comboing with instant skills and cover casts and hp with invuln. And which have clearly designed weaknesses on other places to make it even necessary to have this strong defensive ability to survive without just leaving a fight from being a 2 shot to every autoattack in the game. How clunky it would make the specs by contradicting their whole fundamental playstyle, just unnatural.

I mean there is a reason they are differently designed since game release and tbh when i have to decide which balance/ dev team i consider has more gameknowledge and class knowledge and balance experience i would bet both legs on the origin team over this trade off mess team (no offense).

[The Ace.9105]

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs. The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

[bravan.3876]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs. The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

Anet then should just delete them, you know, for the consistency in their trade off actions. It was one of my suggestions to make bow a 3 skill weapon, but we should delete weaponswap ability too because we cannot let Renegade escape the trade off by using a core weapon instead bow! Also that something is trash (more trash than core already) doesn't matter for the trade off policy! Not contradicting/ not destroying class/elite mechanics or keeping skill ceiling high are also no parts of the trade off policy. L2life with that. Not my agenda though don't blame me.

[storm.3120]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

Wait, you think he was serious?I mean yes, the trade off of my main class is already that i still have to breathe during playing it, what is completely unfair considering that others only lose a dodge or a pet. Breathing makes the playstyle unnecessay clunky if not unplayable and clearly contradicts my basic nature as human being

[Shao.7236]

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The tradeoff is that you are taking a subpar traitline and legend in exchange for permanent alacrity and might spam. There is no other reason to use renegade, it's a badly designed spec held up solely because it poops an extremely valuable boon at instant cast and gives a damage buff. It changes absolutely nothing about how the class functions or brings anything unique to the class as a whole.

The renegade traitline is a jumbled mess of nonsense that doesn't work together. Bleed being introduced on a class with NO other sources of bleed output means no synergy with anything else, an absolutely terrible ranged weapon that killed any hope of core getting a condi ranged weapon, a new legend who's skills are just the rejected love children of Wells and Phantasms that not only did nobody want, but are functionally terrible; they die far too quickly and are easily CC locked and made completely useless, uninspired F skills held up because of might and alacrity.

There's a reason Herald is used for every viable PvP spec, and if you removed alacrity for groups and Kalla's Fervor, you'd see this spec die faster than chrono did. (Chrono is also dead because Anet are too full of themselves to realize they absolutely butchered the spec and can't swallow their pride and revert the changes.)

Renegade can get 105% aka immunity to condition damage for 10 seconds unstrippable or a fat passive 55% anytime it wants, could have possibly have perma vigor, fury, swiftness with a selection of perma 25 might or alacrity with high stability and protection uptime, still can in WvW.

Has few of the most dangerous AoEs that can support and destroy anyone given they try to contest it without using any of their sustain, that's only if you're not using Shiro which is the worst to pair with Kalla, why even bother.

Probably the greatest synergy out of all other traitlines given it's not made up and used with stupid intend, because 99% of the time that's what people do.

Playing it like it's meant to chase people (lol) or mash on someone like it's the lazy herald/shiro the entire playerbase is so used to, again only a few selected people can do and play outside that easy build and see the immense value renegade can achieve with the right plays and ideals.

[The Ace.9105]

@Shao.7236 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The tradeoff is that you are taking a subpar traitline and legend in exchange for permanent alacrity and might spam. There is no other reason to use renegade, it's a badly designed spec held up solely because it poops an extremely valuable boon at instant cast and gives a damage buff. It changes absolutely nothing about how the class functions or brings anything unique to the class as a whole.

The renegade traitline is a jumbled mess of nonsense that doesn't work together. Bleed being introduced on a class with NO other sources of bleed output means no synergy with anything else, an absolutely terrible ranged weapon that killed any hope of core getting a condi ranged weapon, a new legend who's skills are just the rejected love children of Wells and Phantasms that not only did nobody want, but are functionally terrible; they die far too quickly and are easily CC locked and made completely useless, uninspired F skills held up because of might and alacrity.

There's a reason Herald is used for every viable PvP spec, and if you removed alacrity for groups and Kalla's Fervor, you'd see this spec die faster than chrono did. (Chrono is also dead because Anet are too full of themselves to realize they absolutely butchered the spec and can't swallow their pride and revert the changes.)

Renegade can get 105% aka immunity to condition damage for 10 seconds unstrippable or a fat passive 55% anytime it wants, could have possibly have perma vigor, fury, swiftness with a selection of perma 25 might or alacrity with high stability and protection uptime, still can in WvW.

Has few of the most dangerous AoEs that can support and destroy anyone given they try to contest it without using any of their sustain, that's only if you're not using Shiro which is the worst to pair with Kalla, why even bother.

Probably the greatest synergy out of all other traitlines given it's not made up and used with stupid intend, because 99% of the time that's what people do.

Playing it like it's meant to chase people (lol) or mash on someone like it's the lazy herald/shiro the entire playerbase is so used to, again only a few selected people can do and play outside that easy build and see the immense value renegade can achieve with the right plays and ideals.

Been fighting all kinds of renegades and the shiro one is still the most efficient renegade build in conquest.

[The Ace.9105]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

Nice quoting, very entertaining!

[The Ace.9105]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

How about

The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

You already has these tradeoffs as renegade cause you have skills which if you use you'll be way less efficient in combat so you do way better if you just don't use them.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

This is an obvious salty troll thread but the obvious truth is that Renegades tradeoff is the abilities are overcosted for what they bring to PvP.

I used to play a meme Renegade build at around plat II a long time ago that was Shiro/Jalis. That same build is now played as core rev, purely because Ancient echo is more useful in PvP than all three skills that Renegade gets.

[Shao.7236]

@Master Ketsu.4569 said:This is an obvious salty troll thread but the obvious truth is that Renegades tradeoff is the abilities are overcosted for what they bring to PvP.

I used to play a meme Renegade build at around plat II a long time ago that was Shiro/Jalis. That same build is now played as core rev, purely because Ancient echo is more useful in PvP than all three skills that Renegade gets.

Expensive is not always a bad thing though when you're supposed to not camp legends, it only makes Charged Mists easier to proc when you have 3 extra skills to work with.

If anything it plays just like Herald but in the more energy focused way with just as much Might/Fury/Swiftness minus Infuse Light and rather have massive Siphon and big Condition Damage reduction.

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@CutesySylveon.8290 said:The tradeoff is that you are taking a subpar traitline and legend in exchange for permanent alacrity and might spam. There is no other reason to use renegade, it's a badly designed spec held up solely because it poops an extremely valuable boon at instant cast and gives a damage buff. It changes absolutely nothing about how the class functions or brings anything unique to the class as a whole.

The renegade traitline is a jumbled mess of nonsense that doesn't work together. Bleed being introduced on a class with NO other sources of bleed output means no synergy with anything else, an absolutely terrible ranged weapon that killed any hope of core getting a condi ranged weapon, a new legend who's skills are just the rejected love children of Wells and Phantasms that not only did nobody want, but are functionally terrible; they die far too quickly and are easily CC locked and made completely useless, uninspired F skills held up because of might and alacrity.

There's a reason Herald is used for every viable PvP spec, and if you removed alacrity for groups and Kalla's Fervor, you'd see this spec die faster than chrono did. (Chrono is also dead because Anet are too full of themselves to realize they absolutely butchered the spec and can't swallow their pride and revert the changes.)

Renegade can get 105% aka immunity to condition damage for 10 seconds unstrippable or a fat passive 55% anytime it wants, could have possibly have perma vigor, fury, swiftness with a selection of perma 25 might or alacrity with high stability and protection uptime, still can in WvW.

Has few of the most dangerous AoEs that can support and destroy anyone given they try to contest it without using any of their sustain, that's only if you're not using Shiro which is the worst to pair with Kalla, why even bother.

Probably the greatest synergy out of all other traitlines given it's not made up and used with stupid intend, because 99% of the time that's what people do.

Playing it like it's meant to chase people (lol) or mash on someone like it's the lazy herald/shiro the entire playerbase is so used to, again only a few selected people can do and play outside that easy build and see the immense value renegade can achieve with the right plays and ideals.

Been fighting all kinds of renegades and the shiro one is still the most efficient renegade build in conquest.

It's efficient because people are clueless, fight anyone that thinks of stunning the spirits and it's already over, bring any focus and it's already over. Jalis/Renegade has the superior synergy and makes the spirits more persistent rather that a mosquito to slap away. There's a reason why people call them defective wells when they just drop them in the middle of everything expecting something to happen where as just like themselves or any players, they'd get shredded regardless by any CC.

Every single bonus of the Renegade traitline screams for synergy yet the only thing that's ever achieved is something that people try to mold into Herald/Shiro instead.

[Crab Fear.1624]

i just bring kalla and mallyx cause they are both party animals

[storm.3120]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

How about

The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

You already has these tradeoffs as renegade cause you have skills which if you use you'll be way less efficient in combat so you do way better if you just don't use them.You have no idea what “trade off” means.@bravan.3876 see? He was pretty serious, because its Mase (his favorite thing to do - whine and 99% of what he says makes no sense, this time isnt an exception)

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

How about

The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

You already has these tradeoffs as renegade cause you have skills which if you use you'll be way less efficient in combat so you do way better if you just don't use them.You have no idea what “trade off” means.@bravan.3876 see? He was pretty serious, because its Mase (his favorite thing to do - whine and 99% of what he says makes no sense, this time isnt an exception)

Ok kinda funny. But these were the kind of answers i was aiming for tbh. I hoped ppl were more joking about them instead rly meaning them serious but whatever. Lets dismantle this threads goals (its not rly a troll thread but it was made like one to prove a point).

I think as confusing as the whole trade off thing is (as you can see in how different ppl in this forum define trade offs in particular for their main classes and when looking at how differently/inconsistent harder some specs are treatened than others) but one thing is clear:

Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.

I was sure stuff like "Renegade is shit","Renagde is a trade off in itself", "trade off are these and those useless skills or traits" etc will be posted. I was baiting for it. It was to show how confused the whole comunity (including myself) is about the whole trade off thing but also to show how inconsistent and unlocigal and unfair the trade off mess is executed, and also how biased the views of forum ppl about trade offs are when it comes to their main class. Like Ace trying to count weak traits or skills as trade off, what clearly is not what Anet means with mechanical trade off by deleting core mechanics from elites. Or the Psycoprophet guy who trys to argue with Anets definition of trade off on Soulbeast and Mirage without even seeing that it doesn't fit for Mirage at all which would just get a second trade off by the one dodge change in terms of Anets definition and is questionable on Soulbeast (because you can argue that Soulbeast already has a mechanical trade off in Anets definition), while not caring that his main class Warrior has no trade off on meta build.

In the end in Anets narrowed view of mechanical trade offs, Renegade has a trade off by losing the core f1 skill. It doesn't matter for Anets definition, that the replacing elite skills are much better or much worse than the core skills they replace. Mechanical trade off for Anet is ONLY about just deleting core mechanics in exchange for adding elite mechanics. It also doesn't matter that Anet literally just buffed and for that power creeped core by adding an f1 skill to it, instead rly trade offing the elites from Rev.So all Renegade player can calm down and don't need to construct artificial trade offs for their class to avoid a trade off ala Anet definition, while completely missing the one trade off Renegade already has (in Anets nonsense definition at least) by losing core f1 skill.

I will make another thread soon about trade off topic because it got pretty clear that the whole trade off topic is s till very confusing for most ppl. It is completely confusing because it has not rly to do with providing good balance in the first place and does not care if elites are actually rly op or power creeped compared to core or not. Also Anet did not rly explain it well and executed it inconsistent. So i think there still is a big need to dicuss and explain and for that i will make the new thread (if you hate reading wall of text you should ignore the new thread when its up :joy: ).

[otto.5684]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:No that is exactly my point. Soulbeast has an inherent trade off by having to decide between merging and pet skills. It didn't get a second class mechanic on top of the normal one. It only gets the ability to switch between 2 different ones, wheile the switch always lock Soulbeast out form the other one. It is even written on the Soulbeast description that the penalty for merging is to lose the pet during merge. That Soulbeast has overall more cds it can choose from and chain, means has a skill kit/ skill ensemble with overall more skills/button to use is than something you have to adjust by normal nerfs, means nerfing the overall power lvl of the skill kit of Soulbeast. So you can balance out the power of the Soulbeast skill kit without deleting active gameplay option, without just straight up deleting parts of the Soulbeast mechanic which are meant to be there. You can nerf dmg from merge skills and pet skills on Soulbeast, you can higher the cds of single skills, you can make the overall reward Soulbeast gets from Pet skills+merge skill overall the same lvl as core Ranger gets reward from pet only. Simple stat penalty on pets just like Druid got is a way better way of nerfing Soulbeasts power lvl. Combine that with nerfing merge skill power by higher cds and lower skill rewards (less dmg, deleting double and triple rewards) and Soulbeast will be fine compared to core. Because then Soulbeast needs to use more buttons to have the same dmg/ power lvl than core Ranger what jutsifies to have more buttons in the first place.

As said compared to what they do with Mirage Soulbeast still can be happy. The pet swap remove is not totally unlogical and totally contrary to the Soubeast mechanic. It is just an unecessary deletion of active gameplay options you could avoid and just balance out Soulbeats in better ways.

During Mirage gets completely overnerfed by the one dodge rule of the resource it even needs to work in a more active and skilled way. There is a reason another elite (Daredevil) which is also build around pretty strong dodges got MORE dodges compared to other classes and not less. Mirage in current state already has less access to dodges than most classes, what compensates already for having stronger dodges. Why they do not change Daredevil also to only one dodge? Because it would contradict the whole elite design. You cannot build a spec around dodges and then overnerf and with that overlimit the resource the elite needs to work. Mirage already had the trade off from higher opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management, that Mirage needs to use dodges for more than just evading attacks, while not rly having more access to the dodge resource than other classes. Mirage also got the weakest dodge trait in the game as basic mechanic of the spec , a dodge trait that needs a second trait to use or additional build-up work from the player to work like other dodge traits in the game. Mirage has the only dodge in the game can be affected by cripple and chill in its mobility distance.

Sure Mirage was still overperforming. But not in general, it only was overperfroming on specific builds because the condi ambushes are bad designed (they are too passive designed and too strong in the dmg they provide). You could solve all these problems by simply locking out Mirage from having clone normal autoattacks with passive condi dmg. So Mirage doesn't have double passive condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks (core mechanic) and from op condi clone ambushes making offensive dodges unnecessary and condi ambushes for that completely passive. You could just rework or nerf condi ambushes in addition to the lock out of normal condi autotattcks so that they are more like power ambushes (more about having effects the player needs to use well timed and by dodging offensive at needed times and for that less about big dmg).

If you want to add a 4. trade off to Mirage so badly because you say the dodge it got is so insanely powerful that it needs more than just normal nerfs and adjustments of the power lvl on top of the inherent trade offs Mirage already has, than you got ideas like a lower clone cap of 2 or locking out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos and Inspiration (to avoid the broken synergy Mirage has with those traitlines). Whatever there are more than enough ways to balance Mirage to a not overperforming lvl which doesn't contradict the whole basic elite mechanic, which doesn't overnerf the resource it is based on, which doesn't push Mirgae into even more passive and noobfriendly playstyle (by making offensive and tactical dodges impossible), which doesn't kill skill ceiling, which doesn't kill not overperforming, more active and highly skilled power builds as a spin-off.

You basically have no idea of what is a trade off and this is concerning...First of all, keep in mind that I don't think ANet do a good job with the "trade-off" given to most of the professions. The fact that you're content with the powercreep on the mechanism is also understandable because people prefer to have more than less. Objectively:

Elementalist:

• Tempest: the e-spec don't have much of trade-off and ANet should probably work on it. Yes it's weak but by definition it is still powercrept and in need of a trade off. (Note that I have no idea in what direction ANet should go to adress this powercreep and I like the tempest as is, but I'm aware that the powercreep is present and that it would be fair to introduce a true trade-off.)
• Weaver: It's stronger than tempest but still the trade-off is fair. No problem there.

Engineer:

• Scrapper: The new mechanism isn't worth much but there is a trade-off. It's fair.
• Holosmith: They basically gain a kit like the necromancer's shroud and have 4 tool belt skills. It's like have scourge with access to death shroud. There is a need for ANet to work on a true trade-off for this e-spec.

Guardian:

• Dragonhunter: A skill for a skill, nothing much to say, the trade-off is "fair".
• Firebrand: There is basically no trade-off there, it's pure powercreep. Pretty much like Holosmith there is a need for ANet to produce a true trade-off for the spec. The current don't make up for how much power is packed onto the tomes.

Mesmer:

• Chronomancer: The "double trade-off" they implemented is more crippling than anything. There is no reason for the loss of the self shatter after the change of the shatter skills. Here ANet objectively over did it on the trade-off. Personally, I'd have skill that create clones no longer create clone but only increase the clone pool which would be expanded by self shatter, effectively reducing much of the shatter damage of the chronomancer and the confusion generated by the poped AI (that wouldn't pop), obviously the shatter 'numbers' would have to be balanced around a single 'explosion'.
• Mirage: The "trade-off" of the 2nd dodge is "smart" (because it halve the access to mirage cloack out of the utility skills) but not "wise" (because dodge isn't the powercrept thing). The sensible choice would have been to reduce heavily the shatter skills' damage since more damage have been put on the "on dodge" option.

Necromancer:

• Reaper: Purely speaking the trade off with the core here is fair. The issue with him is the shroud design itself. A mechanism with such a defensive nature shouldn't have high offense. The sensible trade-off would be to remove the second health bar when entering this shroud.
• Scourge: Making the mechanism cluncky to use isn't a trade-off. Scourge's mechanism issue is that the shade skills end up doing to many things at the same time. Objectively, there is no reason for shade skills to deal damage since they do not lock the scourge out of it's weapon and utility skills. That's where the trade-off should be.

Ranger:

• Druid: The issue of this e-spec is that it's new mechanism have basically no correlation with the core mechanism. Reducing the pet's damage objectively isn't a trade-off to the powercreep introduced. Personnally I'd change it's pets to become shadows of the current pets, dealing token amount of damage but hardly damaged by any incoming damage (their only real usefulness becoming their support skills).
• Soulbeast: Objectively restraining access to a single pet feel like the proper trade-off here.

Revenant:

• Herald: Before they introduced
  Ancient echo
  , I'd have say that there is no trade off. Now if feel pretty fair.
• Renegade: Before they introduced
  Ancient echo
  , I'd have say that there is no trade off. Now if feel pretty fair.

Thief:

• Daredevil: Personally I don't think that the trade-off of mobility for an extra dodge is "fair" but it can be seen as agreeable.
• Deadeye: I'd say that the trade-off is fair here. Similar to the necromancer with the shroud, the issue is mostly in the bursty design of the stealth attacks. Trade offs on the profession's mechanism don't fix a design broken at the core of the profession as a whole.

Warrior:

• Berserker: An e-spec not designed with any trade-off that ended up crippled to keep a design without trade-off. The e-spec should just use
  berserk
  as it's default unique burst skill. (wanting to keep the primal bursts and slap toughness reduction is ANet's mistake, this is no trade-off)
• SpellBreaker: Slightly different than Berserker in the sense that ANet tried to slap a failed trade-off on it. The e-spec should have
  Full counter
  as it's main and only burst skill.

This is mostly... incorrect. It only really works if the core class is viable. This applies only to warrior, thief and guardian as a maybe. Changing a mechanic is not a trade-off. Having various builds with different strength and weakness, with similar performance is.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely retarded DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

No they are not up to give double or triple trade off to a class and have for that classes with no trade off at all. These are inconsistencies i will talk about in the big thread. I am not justifying what Anet did here. I just try to explain how they think and what they meant with the trade offs (at least the way i understand it). Anet clearly made mistakes , a lot, no matter on how you look at it and how you define trade off in the end. You will see in the other thread.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

No they are not up to give double or triple trade off to a class and have for that classes with no trade off at all. These are inconsistencies i will talk about in the big thread. I am not justifying what Anet did here. I just try to explain how they think and what they meant with the trade offs (at least the way i understand it). Anet clearly made mistakes , a lot, no matter on how you look at it and how you define trade off in the end. You will see in the other thread.Me and some others (Erzian, I'd say he is the one of these who makes sense and you should listen) said why soulbeast has no trade offs.You can do whatever thread you like, that wont change the fact that they destroy mesmer with double trade offs that make the class unplayble and classes like thief/holo/fb getting close to none and gain insanely more than they lose and they are still unhappy (daredevils lul) . My point is - their trade offs are inconsistent and not fair for everyone, some are getting way more than the others, who knows why

[The Ace.9105]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

How about

The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

You already has these tradeoffs as renegade cause you have skills which if you use you'll be way less efficient in combat so you do way better if you just don't use them.You have no idea what “trade off” means.@bravan.3876 see? He was pretty serious, because its Mase (his favorite thing to do - whine and 99% of what he says makes no sense, this time isnt an exception)

All I said was that the trade offs mentioned are already in place.

[The Ace.9105]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Can someone tell me what the trade off for Renegade is? They got 2 more f skills compared to core. That clearly cries for a trade off!!! I think deleting 2 of the five short bow skills or giving Renegade only 2 utility slots could be a good change. Also possible would be to lock them out of weaponswap (just as Rev was designed before HoT test weekend). Thoughts?

Renegade already has these tradeoffs.Yet presents zero evidence of any /shrug

How about

The bleed spirit is useless and not worth to use cause it wastes your energy and gives you nothing and the short bow has 2 useless skills number 2 and number 3 that you never use cause they can't hit anything and do less damage than your auto attack. It would be the exact same if 2 bow skills and that utility skill would be just deleted.

You already has these tradeoffs as renegade cause you have skills which if you use you'll be way less efficient in combat so you do way better if you just don't use them.You have no idea what “trade off” means.@bravan.3876 see? He was pretty serious, because its Mase (his favorite thing to do - whine and 99% of what he says makes no sense, this time isnt an exception)

Ok kinda funny. But these were the kind of answers i was aiming for tbh. I hoped ppl were more joking about them instead rly meaning them serious but whatever. Lets dismantle this threads goals (its not rly a troll thread but it was made like one to prove a point).

I think as confusing as the whole trade off thing is (as you can see in how different ppl in this forum define trade offs in particular for their main classes and when looking at how differently/inconsistent harder some specs are treatened than others) but one thing is clear:

Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.

I was sure stuff like "Renegade is kitten","Renagde is a trade off in itself", "trade off are these and those useless skills or traits" etc will be posted. I was baiting for it. It was to show how confused the whole comunity (including myself) is about the whole trade off thing but also to show how inconsistent and unlocigal and unfair the trade off mess is executed, and also how biased the views of forum ppl about trade offs are when it comes to their main class. Like Ace trying to count weak traits or skills as trade off, what clearly is not what Anet means with mechanical trade off by deleting core mechanics from elites. Or the Psycoprophet guy who trys to argue with Anets definition of trade off on Soulbeast and Mirage without even seeing that it doesn't fit for Mirage at all which would just get a second trade off by the one dodge change in terms of Anets definition and is questionable on Soulbeast (because you can argue that Soulbeast already has a mechanical trade off in Anets definition), while not caring that his main class Warrior has no trade off on meta build.

In the end in Anets narrowed view of mechanical trade offs, Renegade has a trade off by losing the core f1 skill. It doesn't matter for Anets definition, that the replacing elite skills are much better or much worse than the core skills they replace.

Mechanical trade off for Anet is ONLY about just deleting core mechanics in exchange for adding elite mechanics.

It also doesn't matter that Anet literally just buffed and for that power creeped core by adding an f1 skill to it, instead rly trade offing the elites from Rev.So all Renegade player can calm down and don't need to construct artificial trade offs for their class to avoid a trade off ala Anet definition, while completely missing the one trade off Renegade already has (in Anets nonsense definition at least) by losing core f1 skill.

I will make another thread soon about trade off topic because it got pretty clear that

the whole trade off topic is s till very confusing for most ppl. It is completely confusing because it has not rly to do with providing good balance in the first place and does not care if elites are actually rly op or power creeped compared to core or not.

Also Anet did not rly explain it well and executed it inconsistent. So i think there still is a big need to dicuss and explain and for that i will make the new thread (if you hate reading wall of text you should ignore the new thread when its up :joy: ).

So was your point all the time that anet sucks and can't develop classes? We all know this and we also know that anets idea of trade offs is not consistent. I doubt the company will change.

If we talk about the topic then yeah, go ahead and remove 2 bow skills and 1 utility slow. Doesn't change a thing and makes the build actually easier to play without 3 confusing skills nobody in the game reads cause nobody reads anything copied from metabattle.

[The Ace.9105]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

Even with double trade offs the class is somehow still meta. I think the "trade offs" are justified cause without them mesmer would be meta^2.

[storm.3120]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

Even with double trade offs the class is somehow still meta. I think the "trade offs" are justified cause without them mesmer would be meta^2.What you said is nonsense, like all your complains. In fact, even if they would nerf everything and made your main godtier, you would still find something to complain about, always.Show me that magical meta chronomancer used everywhere in ranked/unranked/at/mAT's ? SHOW ME NOW.Actually, nevermind, either you are just trolling or just that "smart" that cant understand simple meaning of "trade off". Not wasting my time on you

[The Ace.9105]

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

Even with double trade offs the class is somehow still meta. I think the "trade offs" are justified cause without them mesmer would be meta^2.What you said is nonsense, like all your complains. In fact, even if they would nerf everything and made your main godtier, you would still find something to complain about, always.Show me that magical meta chronomancer used everywhere in ranked/unranked/at/mAT's ? SHOW ME NOW.Actually, nevermind, either you are just trolling or just that "smart" that cant understand simple meaning of "trade off". Not wasting my time on you

Talking about mesmer. Anyways, I don't want renegade to be the class that's just stupid and op and that's why I am concerned about battle scars update for it. Believe it or not I am still ele main and I really don't have main class bias but what I have is bias towards players who play builds that play themselves and then think the are the thing.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

Even with double trade offs the class is somehow still meta. I think the "trade offs" are justified cause without them mesmer would be meta^2.What you said is nonsense, like all your complains. In fact, even if they would nerf everything and made your main godtier, you would still find something to complain about, always.Show me that magical meta chronomancer used everywhere in ranked/unranked/at/mAT's ? SHOW ME NOW.Actually, nevermind, either you are just trolling or just that "smart" that cant understand simple meaning of "trade off". Not wasting my time on you

Talking about mesmer. Anyways, I don't want renegade to be the class that's just stupid and op and that's why I am concerned about battle scars update for it. Believe it or not I am still ele main and I really don't have main class bias but what I have is bias towards players who play builds that play themselves and then think the are the thing.

play chrono, and tell me its good. please do untill then...

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

No they are not up to give double or triple trade off to a class and have for that classes with no trade off at all. These are inconsistencies i will talk about in the big thread. I am not justifying what Anet did here. I just try to explain how they think and what they meant with the trade offs (at least the way i understand it). Anet clearly made mistakes , a lot, no matter on how you look at it and how you define trade off in the end. You will see in the other thread.Me and some others (Erzian, I'd say he is the one of these who makes sense and you should listen) said why soulbeast has no trade offs.You can do whatever thread you like, that wont change the fact that they destroy mesmer with double trade offs that make the class unplayble and classes like thief/holo/fb getting close to none and gain insanely more than they lose and they are still unhappy (daredevils lul) . My point is - their trade offs are inconsistent and not fair for everyone, some are getting way more than the others, who knows why

Just read the new thread (rofl, i know you like wall of black text on white ground), it is exactly what i say too (with the only exception that i call the Soulbeast trade off arguable, i clearly say several times, that Mesmers specs get treatened unfair harder even as Soulbeast).

@The Ace.9105 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Trade offs in Anets agenda/ definition don't care for how good or bad elite specific mechanics or skills/ traits are. So that bow skills suck in your eyes or the traitline itself doesn't worth taking are clearly no trade offs in Anets definition. Only relevant is, if Renegade lost some core mechanic or not.Well, they are up to give absolutely kitten DOUBLE trade offs for mesmer?Why a class with absolutely NO trade off should stay out of it?You are also at guilt of not understanding what trade off means, on par with shadowpass, he is super biased thats no questions, but you ? xD

Even with double trade offs the class is somehow still meta. I think the "trade offs" are justified cause without them mesmer would be meta^2.

You have no clue about Mesmer mechanics it seems, if you want to understand feel free to read the wall of text in the new trade off thread. Otherwise better say nothing when it is that obviously wrong and biased. Some Mesmer specs (only the braindead ones and that even on freaking core) are barely in meta (Chrono not at all anymore). And that not because they deserved the trade off, that is only because Anet overnerfed the wrong things making the passive and braindead Condimirage playstyle carried by op condi ambushes, normal autoattacks from condiclones and Chaosline escape the needed nerfs to bring it down from the op and passive lvl. While skillful Powermirage builds are not rly viable even pre nerf. And it is in general pretty funny when ppl cry abotu "beyond broken ez passive condispam" Condimirage, while not even being able to play the passive Condmirage without noobcarry and even more passive Chaosline, and even less being able to play Powermirage.

As for Renegade trade off, it already has one. That it doesn't matter if the elite as a whole or the f skills it got in replacement of the core f skill is better or worse simply doesn't matter for Anet in the first place. That is one critical point i listed in my other thread.