Why is boon removal still random? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why is boon removal still random?

After a bit of testing with my friends in game and searching through the wiki I cannot find any reasoning behind how boon removal order works in this game. Duration, intensity, order applied, or even type of boon. None of these factor into what boons are removed when someone uses boon rip. For example, stability is an extremely important boon to pay attention to in all game modes. If a necromancer wanted to corrupt the stability on a guardian and the guardian has four or five boons there is no way the necro can ensure that he will get the guardian's stability with just one well timed skill. This also makes it so that, ironically enough, the best way to counter boon corruption on boon heavy builds is to simply spam more boons so that you have a higher chance of keeping the important ones.

While this seems like just a PvP and WvW issue I feel like it has left a design space unused in PvE. If there was some way to specifically target boons you could theoretically make more precise builds in raids and fractals that only corrupts the boons necessary. This could also lead to more boon usage overall because players would not need to corrupt a full bar of boons to rip protection 100% of the time. They could choose when to rip to get the most value out of the skill. This would also allow Anet to show the value of boons to newer players if they went back and rebalanced older content. Corrupt boon wouldn't seem like such a useless skill in open world then.

For a suggestion on how to design a system I would look at our current condition system. Conditions in this game are cleansed in a last in first out system. This allows for condition builds to try and ensure damaging conditions stay applied through small cleanses by placing less impactful cover conditions on top of it. Why dont boons work the same way? It would force players to think about what order they apply boons in to keep the most important ones safe from small removals. This would allow greater consistency for boon stripping classes as well to know what exactly they are corrupting.

With the next massive balance patch coming up aiming to make the game more consistent and force players to use their cooldowns tactfully removing this unneeded randomness would only reinforce this. Allowing those who pay attention to be rewarded by protecting their boons, and rewarding clever players who can snipe those same boons at the perfect moment instead of simply spamming more corruption and praying.

Comments

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Each boon removal skill has its own priority.

  • @phokus.8934 said:
    Each boon removal skill has its own priority.

    This is not true. We used the same skill for each test, corrupt boon, and each time we got different corruption results.

  • Unless something has changed recently - it's been LIFO (Last in, First Out) for quite some time. HoT condi meta consisted of stacking boons after your Rev uses resistance to ensure your resistance didn't get stripped.

    Double check your testing, I'd be very surprised if this has changed - and I'd imagine it's a bug if it's so.

  • Khisanth.2948Khisanth.2948 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is definitely not random. When using Unholy Feast on Ensolyss it always leaves behind the same boon(Protection).

  • Here is a link to a video showing some of the tests we did. We test a necro using corrupt boon on a guardian using "Save Yourselves!" then testing corruption. Then testing "Hold the line" and "Stand your ground" on a corrupt. Each time different boons are corrupted despite using the same skills in the same order. We also tested using path of corruption on necromancer in order to corrupt a single boon at a time then giving the guard retaliation and regen. Despite repeating the same test in the same boon order several times the corruptions were different.

    Perhaps boon corrupt is not random, but it certainly is a much different system than condi cleansing. And even then we did some more testing on cleansing one condition at a time and found results different from the normal LIFO system that we assumed was how it worked. But that is besides the point for now.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shady.9036 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Each boon removal skill has its own priority.

    This is not true. We used the same skill for each test, corrupt boon, and each time we got different corruption results.

    That’s how it’s always been and I don’t recall this ever changing. Will have to revisit it at some point.

  • phokus.8934phokus.8934 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Shady.9036 said:
    Perhaps boon corrupt is not random, but it certainly is a much different system than condi cleansing. And even then we did some more testing on cleansing one condition at a time and found results different from the normal LIFO system that we assumed was how it worked. But that is besides the point for now.

    Boon corrupt skills work different than condition cleanse. Condi cleanse is LIFO where boon corrupt (depending on the skill) is not.

  • Shady.9036Shady.9036 Member
    edited February 16, 2020

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Shady.9036 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Each boon removal skill has its own priority.

    This is not true. We used the same skill for each test, corrupt boon, and each time we got different corruption results.

    That’s how it’s always been and I don’t recall this ever changing. Will have to revisit it at some point.

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Shady.9036 said:
    Perhaps boon corrupt is not random, but it certainly is a much different system than condi cleansing. And even then we did some more testing on cleansing one condition at a time and found results different from the normal LIFO system that we assumed was how it worked. But that is besides the point for now.

    Boon corrupt skills work different than condition cleanse. Condi cleanse is LIFO where boon corrupt (depending on the skill) is no

    You say that depending on the skill it changes, yet there is simply NOT a priority for the skill. We used the same skill corrupting the same boons in the same order each time, and each time the corrupt was different. Therefore, boon corruption is random.

    You could say that each skill has different corruption/removal priorities and that just because corrupt boon is random does not mean that all boon removal is random. But we also tested path of corruption and found similar results. I think its highly unlikely that Arenanet would make a seperate corruption priority for each skill and in the many years the game has been up not list it. And even if it was only corrupt boon and path of corruption that was random and every other skill had a different boon removal order, this is still a bad design choice for necromancer, a class based around boon corrupt!

    This however, is not true. Before I made this video I tested other boon removal and found no priority in what we tested, if need be I can certainly attempt to test it all again. But so far boon removal seems completely random.

  • Cyninja.2954Cyninja.2954 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    @Shady.9036 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Shady.9036 said:

    @phokus.8934 said:
    Each boon removal skill has its own priority.

    This is not true. We used the same skill for each test, corrupt boon, and each time we got different corruption results.

    That’s how it’s always been and I don’t recall this ever changing. Will have to revisit it at some point.

    @phokus.8934 said:

    @Shady.9036 said:
    Perhaps boon corrupt is not random, but it certainly is a much different system than condi cleansing. And even then we did some more testing on cleansing one condition at a time and found results different from the normal LIFO system that we assumed was how it worked. But that is besides the point for now.

    Boon corrupt skills work different than condition cleanse. Condi cleanse is LIFO where boon corrupt (depending on the skill) is no

    You say that depending on the skill it changes, yet there is simply NOT a priority for the skill. We used the same skill corrupting the same boons in the same order each time, and each time the corrupt was different. Therefore, boon corruption is random.

    You could say that each skill has different corruption/removal priorities and that just because corrupt boon is random does not mean that all boon removal is random. But we also tested path of corruption and found similar results. I think its highly unlikely that Arenanet would make a seperate corruption priority for each skill and in the many years the game has been up not list it. And even if it was only corrupt boon and path of corruption that was random and every other skill had a different boon removal order, this is still a bad design choice for necromancer, a class based around boon corrupt!

    This however, is not true. Before I made this video I tested other boon removal and found no priority in what we tested, if need be I can certainly attempt to test it all again. But so far boon removal seems completely random.

    You are incorrect, thief steal will ALWAYS remove stability first. Always. That has been tested and is an established approach to dealing with warriors in GvG fights.

    Not all boon removal is random, some have unique priorities.

    I do agree though that this should be streamlined and addressed sometime down the road. A clearer anti boon game play would be beneficial overall.

  • chiri.9087chiri.9087 Member ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2020

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    .

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sikieiki.3189 said:
    Corrupt boon has an anti priority, it will always avoid removing fury/regen/quickness. Each skill has unique priorities for example steal will prioritize removing stability and aegis before everything else. Only boon removal with absolutely no priority I've found were sigil of revocation and sigil of absorption.

    in the video above corrupt boon removed regen over 4 other boons, just quickness seems untouched
    is there any data available for priorities? is there difference between corrupt, steal or remove boon skills?

  • chiri.9087chiri.9087 Member ✭✭
    edited May 7, 2020

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    .

  • Koen.1327Koen.1327 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sikieiki.3189 said:

    @Koen.1327 said:

    @Sikieiki.3189 said:
    Corrupt boon has an anti priority, it will always avoid removing fury/regen/quickness. Each skill has unique priorities for example steal will prioritize removing stability and aegis before everything else. Only boon removal with absolutely no priority I've found were sigil of revocation and sigil of absorption.

    in the video above corrupt boon removed regen over 4 other boons, just quickness seems untouched
    is there any data available for priorities? is there difference between corrupt, steal or remove boon skills?

    This is the only extensive testing done anytime lately that I know off
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/90781/list-of-skill-and-trait-boon-rip-priority-here

    The only consistent difference I know off is that all corrupts ignore the duration of the boons while boon steals either grant you a preset duration of every boon or the full duration of the stolen boon

    unfortunately the list isn't accurate, or only accurate for pve
    bountiful theft and dune cloack i know are correct, but corrupt boon and arcane thievery prioritizing stab is 100% not correct

  • Stand The Wall.6987Stand The Wall.6987 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 16, 2020

    I did a boon rip test of every skill in the game on the special forces training golem. needless to say it was a giant waste of time. I sincerely hope that anet finally updates boon rip priority to make it transparent to everyone. have different priorities for some powerful skills, and 1 priority set for the rest. by priority set I mean all of these skills remove x, x, then x and so on.

    Te lazla otstara.
    fingers crossed meta ~