Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta


Vayne.8563

Recommended Posts

@Vayne.8563 said:Because we've never had to do ten man content to get a meta ever. In what way would you open a restaurant that only servers vegetarian dishs and then start serving meat, and then asking us to accept it, because it's on the menu?

Because achievements are never meant to be food served on a silver platter in the first place, they are voluntary challenges.

GW2 Living World meta achievements had used to include challenging combat trials (if any players old enough to remember what doing all these LWS2 achievements before ANY expansions feels like), Scarlet wiped out more player and failed more events than we could ever encountered, and that never stopped players from overflowing maps. They got tuned down so much since PoF that everything turns into a mindless grind, but that doesn't meant it's supposed to be the tradition.

Let's be honest, your statement about the whole thing isn't about meat and vegetables. Closed instance or not, squad based boss fights isn't anything new even for map grinders. It's the added difficulty of combat in strike missions that scared you so much that you would go so far to call quit, instead of progress what you are missing.

That doesn't make you represent the majority of players.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Because we've never had to do ten man content to get a meta ever. In what way would you open a restaurant that only servers vegetarian dishs and then start serving meat, and then asking us to accept it, because it's on the menu?

Because achievements are never meant to be food served on a silver platter in the first place, they are
voluntary challenges
.

GW2 Living World meta achievements had used to include challenging combat trials (if any players old enough to remember what doing all these LWS2 achievements before ANY expansions feels like), Scarlet wiped out more player and failed more events than we could ever encountered, and that never stopped players from overflowing maps. They got tuned down so much since PoF that everything turns into a mindless grind, but that doesn't meant it's supposed to be the tradition.

Let's be honest, your statement about the whole thing isn't about meat and vegetables. Closed instance or not, squad based boss fights isn't anything new even for map grinders. It's the added difficulty of combat in strike missions that scared you so much that you would go so far to call quit, instead of progress what you are missing.

That doesn't make you represent the majority of players.

Well I probably do represent the majority of players, since the devs said he average player does 500% less damage than a good player. That would probably make me the majority.

Again the problem is the change, not the challenge. You're so used to the same argument you're not actually listening to mine. This isn't about, and has never been about difficulty, not for me anyway.

Zone metas really started with HoT. Throughout Season 3 and Season 4, we never had to group for instanced content to do a zone meta. Now that's changing and it's a change people will resent, partially because it's a change. You want to add a multiplayer instanced content meta, go ahead. But to change an existing meta, specifically for the purpose of promoting an area of the game that doesnt' have the support of the fan base to being with is going to kitten people off.

It absolutely doesn't matter what the word achievement means in the English language. In this game, we've had metas that give people options to complete them. It doesn't matter if any one group of people think it's okay to have stuff that most people won't beat as part of a zone meta, generally some of the easiest metas in the game. WHat matters is disenfranchsing what is likely a fairly large segment of the playerbase.

I don't care about the difficulty. I care about being prepared for raids I'm never going to be into, and don't care about and didn't want in the game in the first place. You may think it's okay. I'm almost 100% certain more people dislike raids than raid.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vilin.8056 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Because we've never had to do ten man content to get a meta ever. In what way would you open a restaurant that only servers vegetarian dishs and then start serving meat, and then asking us to accept it, because it's on the menu?

Because achievements are never meant to be food served on a silver platter in the first place, they are
voluntary challenges
.

GW2 Living World meta achievements had used to include challenging combat trials (if any players old enough to remember what doing all these LWS2 achievements before ANY expansions feels like), Scarlet wiped out more player and failed more events than we could ever encountered, and that never stopped players from overflowing maps. They got tuned down so much since PoF that everything turns into a mindless grind, but that doesn't meant it's supposed to be the tradition.

Let's be honest, your statement about the whole thing isn't about meat and vegetables. Closed instance or not, squad based boss fights isn't anything new even for map grinders. It's the added difficulty of combat in strike missions that scared you so much that you would go so far to call quit, instead of progress what you are missing.

That doesn't make you represent the majority of players.

The problem isn't that people want to be 'served on a silver platter'. Nothing being discussed or suggested in this thread would change the fact they are voluntary challenges. Regardless, they are voluntary challenges that Anet, in their best interest, want people to do. Hiding the issue behind this 'voluntary' label is not a smart approach; maybe you don't understand it but Anet delivering content in consistent manner is at the heart of what ails this game. While this thread has ebb and flow like any other long thread, the issue here is about Anet being consistent with how they present content to players, not people complaining it's too hard or wanting anything easy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I probably do represent the majority of players, since the devs said he average player does 500% less damage than a good player. That would probably make me the majority.

Again the problem is the change, not the challenge. You're so used to the same argument you're not actually listening to mine. This isn't about, and has never been about difficulty, not for me anyway.

Zone metas really started with HoT. Throughout Season 3 and Season 4, we never had to group for instanced content to do a zone meta. Now that's changing and it's a change people will resent, partially because it's a change. You want to add a multiplayer instanced content meta, go ahead. But to change an existing meta, specifically for the purpose of promoting an area of the game that doesnt' have the support of the fan base to being with is going to kitten people off.

It absolutely doesn't matter what the word achievement means in the English language. In this game, we've had metas that give people options to complete them. It doesn't matter if any one group of people think it's okay to have stuff that most people won't beat as part of a zone meta, generally some of the easiest metas in the game. WHat matters is disenfranchsing what is likely a fairly large segment of the playerbase.

I don't care about the difficulty. I care about being prepared for raids I'm never going to be into, and don't care about and didn't want in the game in the first place. You may think it's okay. I'm almost 100% certain more people dislike raids than raid.

A good player generally average around 25k dps, since you have played for least 5 years, yet still lingers around 5k, then yes, you do have difficulty with battles mechanics.

And no, that still don't represent yourself as the majority of players, I'm in multiple casual guilds, and most don't cares about full meta achievements or the shiver emotes, it's the map chat, currency, skin, minis and loots worth of gold they want. Ask around the map, how many people has fully unlocked Cosair skins of the past?

The Change is about adding Strike Mission into the list, and Strike Mission DO represent challenge. As said, squad based boss fights isn't uncommon among map contents, the difference on a 10 man instance is simply the added difficulty and transparency of personal performance. If you really don't care, then there wouldn't be this thread. In reality, many casual pugs we played with truly don't care, they simply wants to get this over and done with, we cleared the boss all the same.

It's simply a matter of denial and avoidance.Which is a common casual mentality: people deny contents simply so they could avoid to be judged by other players, especially when they under-perform by a vast degree. No multiplayer games could thrive in this mentality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@sevenDEADLY.5281 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I know a whole lot of people who have no interest in raids, having raided in other games. None. Zero. Burned out on raids. Came here to get away from raids. Relaxing, not min/maxing, as one guy put it. You can say I'm wrong because there's a thread on the forums that asks for easy mode raids, but probably half the people in that thread were against it.

But the 100 response long pages of requests for easy mode raids that constantly gets brought up is direct evidence against what you're saying. Saying "I know people" is literally just anecdotal evidence. Also the fact that you think you NEED to download a dps meter and that you NEED to copy a meta build from a top tier raiding website also shows that you're out of touch with what it takes to raid. I don't have a dps meter and you just need to have slightly more than a basic grasp of mmo mechanics and build synergy to raid, and again, people who literally just press 1 and down world bosses in a mix of random gear with random traits don't have this because they've never had to. These are the same people that complain that story mode is too hard when most people can can sleepwalk through story mode.

Edit: Heres a quote from @"Fundor.2098" I just found in another thread about the whispers of jormag strike. He seems to be exactly the type of person you're saying doesn't exist.

"Is it truly so difficult, it's comparable to raids?I've never done raids before (well, after a couple of epic failures after Vale Guardian was added to the game), but I'm quite interested in them nevertheless. Always expected them to be far out of my skill level though, and finding a group to learn them with has been too much of a hassle thanks to my irregular gaming times. Let me tell you, a three-shift work and a long-distance relationship make it impossible to attend literally anything regularly.But after figuring out the strategy for the Whisper, the groups I've attended haven't failed a single run, despite there having been people who were new to it. A simple explanation of what is to come and what to keep an eye for, making sure at least a portion of the people are playing with team support focused builds, and everything goes smoothly!

Are the Strike Missions actually doing their job? If so, I'm even more grateful for them, than I was before!

Anyhow, your point numer 5, about a strike mission currency, the like of raid currencies, was a very good one."

Yap, we exist!I won't even pretend having read the whole thread through, but there are some interesting points here!I too have voiced my support for easy mode raids in the past, not because of rewards, but for easier access to learning the mechanics of the different raid bosses first hand, and as an avid lore nerd, to experience the lore behind them. If it were up to me, "easy mode raids" could very well be completely rewardless, but still very much needed and beneficial.

That said, and coming back to the original topic of the thread, I'm not against including Strike Mission achievements into the meta achievement list. It's a great way to encourage people to step into a game mode, that's actually beneficial for their gameplay in the long run. And it's seriously not like the meta achievement list even requires the completition of each and every last one of the Strike Mission achievements.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Vayne.8563" said:Do you know what I was told when I bought this game? No holy trinity. No need for a healer. No need to wait to have fun, you can have fun right now. Five wariors can do a dungeon. Five mesmers. Five eles. Five necros. That's what I was sold on. Don't wait to have fun, do it now. And in raids it's back to needed a healer and a tank which frankly is not the game I bought. It was advertised as a different game.

You're assuming wanting an easier raid means we're not good enough. In my case at least, wanting an easier raid is to see the story, without having to go along with the other nonsense raids bring to the game without breaking my own game. I'd rather have not had raids here at all, but once they were here I don't want to be excluded from an area, just because I want to play the game I purchased, that was advertised a certain way. If I wanted a trinity I'd be playing WoW or Final Fantasy XIV. I've always hated the trinity long before Guild Wars 2. Hence, an easy mode raid request. Nothing to do with not good enough...for me. Having to change the way I play to play content I didn't want to play in the first place or be locked out of story? Bad design on Anet's part.

I agree, that it is a bad design choice on Anet's part. it is not the first, and it will not be the last.

I think the underlaying bad design choice is the skill system. Let me explain this with some examples: When I startet as a new player, I played engi exclusively with the flame-thrower. Because it was fun and I play a game only if it is fun. I did not care about effectiveness or DPS. I played the weapon I had fun with. This was so much different than other games (at least for me) , how the weapons feel. And in the several years after that I have seen (and talked to) to a lot of rangers. 80% I talked to (friends, guild, randoms) choose the pets, they like the most, but not because they are most efficient. I can go on with staff-eles that play staff because they feel this is the appropriate weapen for an ele. etc. etc.

In the openworld and the personal story it doesn't matter how much DPS a player is doing. Everyone can have fun.

The bad design-choice that Anet made is: The weapon that is fun is not always the most efficient weapon. This results in, for example in raids, that some classes/weapons/etc. are not good options, they are not viable. A player can (often) not play the i.e. weapon he likes, but has to play what is required for the group to fill in a role. So Anet gave first a lot of choices to players and then removed a lot of them if they want to play the content. Because they wanted to remove the "classic" holy-trinity and replaced it with something else, that is kind of worse (we do not have in GW2 raids the classical holy-trinity, its something else, some call it a cluster-kitten).

So the core of the friction between "I play what I want" and "You should play what the group needs / what is more efficient" is not stupid players, but a bad design choice on Anet's part when mixing those player types together.

Of course it is not black and white and players can move from one group to the other. When my guild started with a raid group long time ago, I looked up what viable roles could be fun to play and then I made that character raid-ready, to be most efficient, and raiding became fun too with the right people.

I do not believe, that the core of the weapons and skill system will be changed (changing some numbers does not count). So Anet should reduce the friction between this different player types (i.e. players that want to play more efficient, players that want to use the pet/weapon that is the most fun, etc. etc.) and should give each of them the content they like/want, without mixing the content too much between them.

And when Anet wants to motivate players of one type to try out another type, they should not push/force them with putting content of one type into the achievements/ requirements of another type. Anet already learned this lesson long time ago, when they, for example, removed the WvW-maps from PvE-world-completion (yes, I know, there is still the Gift of Battle, but that is a different story) and they also made the PvP/WvW reward tracks where you can get PvE items without doing PvE.

I think it is good that Anet wants to motivate players to try out strike-missions and raids. But forcing players to do strike-missions, if they want the story-meta-achievements, is a bad design choice on Anet's part. This does increase the friction between the different player types/groups. This thread (and the others about the same topic) is proof for that.

EDIT: A better way would be: Give players a choice for the story-meta-achievements and make the strike-mission achievements optional, easy and a little bit more convenient. Then players can choose if they want to do "some fast/easy strike-mission achievements" or if they want to take the longer tour without the strike-mission-achievments.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Vayne.8563" said:You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

@"Vayne.8563" said:You know who does have metrics? Anet. And what those metrics tell them will be a bit more useful, even though those too can be misleading.

And their metrics "told them" to add the Strike Mission achievements to the meta. Using the "Anet has the data" argument selectively when it fits ones argument isn't a very good idea.

That said I haven't even started the meta of Shadow in the Ice but I see there are 45 available achievements and you need 37 to complete the meta? That leaves 8 achievements as "extra"? 12 achievements are from Strike Missions, meaning a player to complete the meta requires 4 Strike Mission achievements.

I'm gonna state the "easy mode ones":Reflections in the Ice: defeat your frozen clone. The Whisper of Jormag is a very easy boss for any 10-man group (or even with less people) at the start but it gets significantly harder as the fight progresses. Yet, to get this achievement you must reach 75% of the boss health and during the first 25% he doesn't use any of his party wipe attacks. There is very little difference between the Whisper of Jormag and many story bosses, so getting this achievement is essentially a freebie for -almost- everyone. Even a bad or low-man team can bring him to 75%, get the achievement, get out. There is more than enough time to do so.

High Shaman, High Stakes, Fraenir Frolic, Elemental Elegy: these 3 are also relatively easy because the Fraenir of Jormag Strike Mission is probably the easiest Strike Mission after the Grothmar one. This is the entry level mission that requires zero planning and zero roles, meaning it's perfectly doable WITHOUT creating a squad first, just walk through the portal, get some random team, finish it. All the achievements are personal too.

I cannot commend on the Voice and Claw achievements because I frankly haven't done that mission yet. There are probably easy ones there too?

The Boneskinner and the rest of the Whisper of Jormag achievements can be safely skipped (other than Reflections in the Ice)

It's mostly an incentive to play the Strike Missions, at least their PUBLIC version, no need to group up, no need to make a squad, no need to open up the LFG to finish the meta. It's a "try this, if you like it you will play it, if you don't, get your easy achie and don't come back.". If they required you to finish the harder missions then I'd be mad too, those have no reason to be in the requirements for the meta.

We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Vayne.8563" said:We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

The same thing can be said about every other situation where "Anet has the data".

By the way, I gave you a list of freebie Strike achievements to do and complete the meta. They don't even require grouping up with other people as Strikes have a public/open version. Simply walk through the portal as you'd do with any open world event, get the achievements, profit. And for some players, maybe not you, they might enjoy the experience too, which is a huge plus for the Strike missions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

The same thing can be said about every other situation where "Anet has the data".

By the way, I gave you a list of freebie Strike achievements to do and complete the meta. They don't even require grouping up with other people as Strikes have a public/open version. Simply walk through the portal as you'd do with any open world event, get the achievements, profit. And for some players, maybe not you, they might enjoy the experience too, which is a huge plus for the Strike missions.

I'm worried about the slippery slope here. This is one meta. Yes, you can walk through and get the results now, but strike missions are getting harder and the next zone isn't out yet. I'm not convinced Anet is going to stop here which has been my issue since the beginning of this conversation. If this is the future, it's an issue for me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones. So unless they add a load of varying difficulties again, no slippery slope.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the same arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating ad infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Randulf.7614 said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true. We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Vayne.8563" said:The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

Correction: the Bjora Marches Strike Missions have been getting harder. Grothmar has a single Strike of very low difficulty.The next map(s) should do the same. I don't think going above Whisper of Jormag would make any kind of sense, it's already high enough on the difficulty chart, so the Strikes of the next map(s) will also go lower in difficulty and start going up as they release more of them.

The order of the Bjora Marches Strike Missions:Fraenir of JormagVoice of the Fallen and Claw of the FallenBoneskinnerWhisper of Jormag

There is lots of variety here. And achievements like the freebie "Reflections in the Ice" can be used to give incentive to players to try the harder Strike Missions, to see if they like them. Overall the design isn't bad, and including the Strike Mission achievements as requirements for the zone meta isn't prohibiting any kind of player from finishing the zone meta.

Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

A trend like that makes sense as long as we stay in the same map, since the initial Strike Missions were very very easy. And it's better to go progressively higher, rather than start with something really hard then try to balance the next ones, a lesson that Arenanet (hopefully) learned from their Raids that are known for being all over the place regarding their difficulty.

You have all the reasons for concern, after all it's Arenanet that is known for changing their attitude and direction quickly, but I think there is little reason to believe that the next Strike Missions will start from the Whisper of Jormag difficulty. It would essentially mean the death of Strike Missions as a concept/idea (and the concept/idea of a map/zone meta) so I'm quite confident they won't do that.

Also

I'm worried about the slippery slope here. This is one meta. Yes, you can walk through and get the results now, but strike missions are getting harder and the next zone isn't out yet. I'm not convinced Anet is going to stop here which has been my issue since the beginning of this conversation. If this is the future, it's an issue for me.

I can understand the problem in the future, if they continue the trend of rising difficulty. But the way you worded your first post was against the idea of instanced group content (Strikes have a public version btw, no need to actually "group") used in the zone meta. So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

Terrible? i wouldn't go that far, but it's not good; players want consistent offerings ... it's an important indicator that companies understand and deliver what their customers want. Survival is not necessary for Anet; they can choose to dictate to customers if they want to. There are other games.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true. We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

Let me rephrase it .

No one person in this thread despite their claims to the contrary represents the majority of the playerbase

Yes they are getting harder, but they almagmated all the ones from the same map - including the easy ones. If they are adding only harder, it is unlikely in my opinion they will add just the harder again ones as mandatory to the meta. They did it this way because it includes a variety of difficulties - keeping ti fair, whilst maintaining the goal of bringing players together. And bringing players together acros communities has been the pillar of GW2 since day one.

Yes saying something is absolutely right. Yes feeding back is absolutely right. Saying it over and over and over and over and over and over in the same thread to bump it the front page however is cycling the same argument without bringing anything new to the table whilst arbitrarily inflating the thread size to make it look important

@maddoctor.2738 said:So I'm gonna ask, worries about the future aside, was it a terrible idea to have the Strike achievements part of the zone meta? Given their current difficulty progression

Not really. People are right to think otherwise, but it's just a meta and it brings more people to Strikes. If anything I'm seeing more people doing them which is helping to make groups easier to get. There's plenty of difficulty progression here to appeal. Fraenir alone requires virtually no effort

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:Let me rephrase it .

No one person in this thread despite their claims to the contrary represents the majority of the playerbaseTrue. Some of the opinions voiced in this thread
may
however be representative of the opinions shared by majority of playerbase.

Considering the views are wide and varied, that would be logical

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:We have no idea whether that decision was based on metrics or trying something because they had no idea how it would go. They had certain assumptiions they made, and it wasn't necessarily based on metrics or solely on metrics. And if their metrics show it's not working they won't do it again. This is what I believe happend with migraine.

The same thing can be said about every other situation where "Anet has the data".

By the way, I gave you a list of freebie Strike achievements to do and complete the meta. They don't even require grouping up with other people as Strikes have a public/open version. Simply walk through the portal as you'd do with any open world event, get the achievements, profit. And for some players, maybe not you, they might enjoy the experience too, which is a huge plus for the Strike missions.

But you still have to do the Strike, public or not, that's also the point...I don't like them, I got that from doing the easiest Strike out there, the Grothmar one, therefore I'm not even going to bother with the Map Meta, just like I've ignored many others, it's not important, but putting any of it behind something that most people will already have made a decision on from trying the very first one is not a good or smart choice.

@Randulf.7614 said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones. So unless they add a load of varying difficulties again, no slippery slope.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

~snip~

See my above answer as to why it wasn't a smart choice to include the Strike missions(even a part of them) as part of the Map Meta.

MMO does not mean today what it meant 20, 15 or 10 years ago, it doesn't mean people have to group up together, whether random or organized either, by the definition of those words means it's a world populated with many other people, that's it, nothing more, nothing less...or to make it even simpler, a single player game inhabited by thousands of other people playing the same single player game, at least that's what they've evolved to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Vayne.8563 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true.
We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

No one "represents" a majority. That would be a designated position, elected position, or some other thing that does not currently exist among GW2 players. This is entirely different from majorities existing or not. Of course they do, but then you must also assign definitions of "majority". Majority of whom? Those who login consistently? Those who have an account? Those who have x number of achievements? Those who have ever tried a raid? Those who have not? Those who login once a day? At some point waybackwhen in this thread where half of the posts are from yourself, you claim you are the majority. You then proceeded to pigeonhole where your definition of the majority was.

The facts are, none of us have the facts. We do not know why the Strike Mission was included. We do not know if future episodes will have Strikes included. All I know, is after all these posts, I have gone from not wanting them included to heartily hoping they are. Thank you, Vayne, for changing my mind.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Etria.3642 said:

@"Randulf.7614" said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true.
We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

No one "represents" a majority. That would be a designated position, elected position, or some other thing that does not currently exist among GW2 players. This is entirely different from majorities existing or not. Of course they do, but then you must also assign definitions of "majority". Majority of whom? Those who login consistently? Those who have an account? Those who have x number of achievements? Those who have ever tried a raid? Those who have not? Those who login once a day? At some point waybackwhen in this thread where half of the posts are from yourself, you claim you are the majority. You then proceeded to pigeonhole where your definition of the majority was.

The facts are, none of us have the facts. We do not know why the Strike Mission was included. We do not know if future episodes will have Strikes included. All I know, is after all these posts, I have gone from not wanting them included to heartily hoping they are. Thank you, Vayne, for changing my mind.

@"Randulf.7614" said:Yes but they included the easy ones as well as the hard ones. They are no different to an open world boss fight or a bounty just with a wall around them. They didn’t include must do the hard ones.

It’s an mmo and it brings together players from various content and various communities and metas are perfectly set up to do that

This isn’t new, it isn’t a oroblem that I can see, if anything it is a positive and for players like me and some others, it has worked

There are clearly differences of opinion but I think everyone reasserting the sane arguments over and over is just causing this thread the cycle around now without moving forward.

No one represents a majority, there is no single casual community like players think and no one is “right” here. Perhaps it is time to let others have their say or let the thread run its course because repeating as infininum is prob hurting the cause more than anything since it misrepresents how many people actually care about the issue

The started with easier ones and said they would get harder. I can see the earlier ones are much easier. Once we have a new zone, if they continue to get harder it will be a whole different situation.

As for no one representing a majority that's simply not true.
We may not know the majority but that doesn't mean a majority doesn't exist. For example a while back Mo said that 60% of the playerbase was predominantly PVE, 30% WvW and 10% PvP. That would make PvE players a majority. Saying no one has a majority is factually untrue. You can only say we don't know the who the majority is.

As for cycling, people continue to try to make this about something it's not. Even your post, saying well, there are easier ones and harder ones, and I agree. But the trend is that they're getting harder.

Let me ask, if you don't say something at the beginning of the trend, isn't it your fault then if the trend continues unabated? It's an issue worthy of discussion.

No one "represents" a majority. That would be a designated position, elected position, or some other thing that does not currently exist among GW2 players. This is entirely different from majorities existing or not. Of course they do, but then you must also assign definitions of "majority". Majority of whom? Those who login consistently? Those who have an account? Those who have x number of achievements? Those who have ever tried a raid? Those who have not? Those who login once a day? At some point waybackwhen in this thread where half of the posts are from yourself, you claim you are the majority. You then proceeded to pigeonhole where your definition of the majority was.

The facts are, none of us have the facts. We do not know why the Strike Mission was included. We do not know if future episodes will have Strikes included. All I know, is after all these posts, I have gone from not wanting them included to heartily hoping they are. Thank you, Vayne, for changing my mind.

It is my belief the majority of players of this game are mostly found in the open world. If not more than 50%, at least the largest demographic. Not sure why anyone wants to really argue about this. We know the raid community is really small, so a minority of the playerbase raids. You can say there's no majority but when I say I represent a majority I don't mean the term represent as in I'm speaking for them. I'm not representing them in court. I'm simply saying I'm part of that majority as in as an older game, I represent the first generation of people who grew up on video games. Like I'm representing a guild in Guild Wars 2. It doesn't mean I'm speaking for them, only that I'm a part of them.

If it makes you feel better, you can replace the word represent with the words "I'm a part of". Hope this clarifies some of the confusion.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...