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[Feedback] New Drakkar Fight


Randulf.7614

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@"Nidome.1365" said:I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Maybe they know what cc is, but were just waiting for the PVP phase after the fail?

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@Zok.4956 said:

@"Nidome.1365" said:I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Maybe they know what cc is, but were just waiting for the PVP phase after the fail?

There is that risk for sure. There's likely also a lot of players who haven't finished their mastery or didnt join the escort phase to stack it. And it's the mastery that is most essential for the cc phase.

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"Nidome.1365" said:I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Maybe they know what cc is, but were just waiting for the PVP phase after the fail?

There is that risk for sure. There's likely also a lot of players who haven't finished their mastery or didnt join the escort phase to stack it. And it's the mastery that is most essential for the cc phase.

Yup, ive done the Drakkar fight quite a bit without having any of the mastery skills stacked up so i have no CC ability. Also the rest of the CC i can bring is not even able to be seen moving the bar...

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had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.And how many of those people do you think there are? Cause if this is a big group then it's a major group of customers for this game.

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@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.From the whole whooping 2 drakkars I've done (one prepatch and one after, both successfull) that looks to be the same reason as always - too many people scaling the mobs. It's the same thing as in every other event. 5 competent players with decent dps and CC will kill champions faster than 30 with mediocre dps that barely understand what CC is. And of course, everyone rushes the first gate.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.From the whole whooping 2 drakkars I've done (one prepatch and one after, both successfull) that looks to be the same reason as always - too many people scaling the mobs. It's the same thing as in every other event. 5 competent players with decent dps and CC will kill champions faster than 30 with mediocre dps that barely understand what CC is. And of course, everyone rushes the first gate.My feeling though is that the mediocre or worse players are the vast majority of the player base. And there are things that ArenaNet could do to improve that situation but this isn't it.

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@ZolracAtrox.2908 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Why does this boss destroy minion builds. We shouldn't have to change builds right in front of a world boss.... I just realized this when I did this on my Necromancer. :-1:

'cause a lot of minionmancers are afk/passive people, and this boss requires a lot of dps

This. MANY necros use their minions as a crutch instead of a tool, and Drakkar's constant AOE erases minions quickly, leaving the minion masters having to rely on their own relatively low DPS compared to non-minion builds. Every build has its strong and weak points; big AOE heavy bosses are the weak point for minion builds. As the Kodan would say, balance...

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@Jimbru.6014 said:

@Josiah.2967 said:Why does this boss destroy minion builds. We shouldn't have to change builds right in front of a world boss.... I just realized this when I did this on my Necromancer. :-1:

'cause a lot of minionmancers are afk/passive people, and this boss requires a lot of dps

This. MANY necros use their minions as a crutch instead of a tool, and Drakkar's constant AOE erases minions quickly, leaving the minion masters having to rely on their own relatively low DPS compared to non-minion builds. Every build has its strong and weak points; big AOE heavy bosses are the weak point for minion builds. As the Kodan would say, balance...

Room for thought... The most powerful Power DPS Reaper build uses 3 minions... This shouldn't kill minions that live through raids.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"Nidome.1365" said:I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Maybe they know what cc is, but were just waiting for the PVP phase after the fail?

There is that risk for sure. There's likely also a lot of players who haven't finished their mastery or didnt join the escort phase to stack it. And it's the mastery that is most essential for the cc phase.

Yup, ive done the Drakkar fight quite a bit without having any of the mastery skills stacked up so i have no CC ability. Also the rest of the CC i can bring is not even able to be seen moving the bar...

I just bring rocks although I carry those around for other stuff as well not just for this fight. Having a literal pile of CCs with no cooldown is useful in many places.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.From the whole whooping 2 drakkars I've done (one prepatch and one after, both successfull) that looks to be the same reason as always - too many people scaling the mobs. It's the same thing as in every other event. 5 competent players with decent dps and CC will kill champions faster than 30 with mediocre dps that barely understand what CC is. And of course, everyone rushes the first gate.My feeling though is that the mediocre or worse players are the vast majority of the player base. And there are things that ArenaNet could do to improve that situation but this isn't it.

It's not just a feeling. The vast majority of players are of the extra casual sort who don't have proper builds and don't care to learn how to DPS or apply boons properly. Many are so oblivious to what is going on that they will stand and die in the middle of a big red pulsating circle and then ask what happened.

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@Dante.1763 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"Nidome.1365" said:I had a meta fail today because too many people were standing around "Bored under javi shield because no gate buff" instead of killing the spawning mobs. About three of us were trying to kill the mobs while the rest just stood around under the shield. The mobs destroyed the shield and the meta failed.

The other thing I noticed was that too many people don't seem to know and/or understand what 'cc is. Anet already have a dodge tutorial, perhaps they should add a 'cc tutorial as well and block people from entering high level maps until they have completed it?

Maybe they know what cc is, but were just waiting for the PVP phase after the fail?

There is that risk for sure. There's likely also a lot of players who haven't finished their mastery or didnt join the escort phase to stack it. And it's the mastery that is most essential for the cc phase.

Yup, ive done the Drakkar fight quite a bit without having any of the mastery skills stacked up so i have no CC ability. Also the rest of the CC i can bring is not even able to be seen moving the bar...

This is why you max out your Essence masteries while escorting Jhavi to the fight. The lasers have a strong CC effect against Drakkar.

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my comments:for open wrold word boss I need special set, special build, and special class ?? What happen ? I don't believe that everyone say what we go right direction.

Also I am sure that people who say "that ok, nice WB" is do trolling and nothing more.

Someone say "prepare people for raid". Oh, people who want go raid - go raids. Who don't want - don't go.

Addeded "winter Infusion" ... who need this ? sad. May be better add something more valuable ? whit more rare drop ? like bee infusion?

why I think so? I was try do it at weekend many times. Also attract members from guild. result 0 times killed.At last try no one from my guild go try it. People say "what we reason go if it will be failed again and again??"

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@"lare.5129" said:my comments:for open wrold word boss I need special set, special build, and special class ?? What happen ? I don't believe that everyone say what we go right direction.

Also I am sure that people who say "that ok, nice WB" is do trolling and nothing more.

Someone say "prepare people for raid". Oh, people who want go raid - go raids. Who don't want - don't go.

Addeded "winter Infusion" ... who need this ? sad. May be better add something more valuable ? whit more rare drop ? like bee infusion?

why I think so? I was try do it at weekend many times. Also attract members from guild. result 0 times killed.At last try no one from my guild go try it. People say "what we reason go if it will be failed again and again??"

You do not need any special class, build or skills. It’s just a normal big standard boss fight. At best it is useful to max your masteries.

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@Bassdeff.1895 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.From the whole whooping 2 drakkars I've done (one prepatch and one after, both successfull) that looks to be the same reason as always - too many people scaling the mobs. It's the same thing as in every other event. 5 competent players with decent dps and CC will kill champions faster than 30 with mediocre dps that barely understand what CC is. And of course, everyone rushes the first gate.My feeling though is that the mediocre or worse players are the vast majority of the player base. And there are things that ArenaNet could do to improve that situation but this isn't it.

It's not just a feeling. The vast majority of players are of the extra casual sort who don't have proper builds and don't care to learn how to DPS or apply boons properly. Many are so oblivious to what is going on that they will stand and die in the middle of a big red pulsating circle and then ask what happened.Well that makes it an interesting, because the game does cater a lot to casuals, except when it comes to character builds. Considering the content, I think the character builds including weapon choice, stat choice, spec choice, trait choice etc. it seems that it's rather unnecessarily complex compared to the simplicity of the actual combat and player base.

One of the things I never understood in this game for example is the huge impact of which weapons you choose. So for flavour purposes I may want to play a staff and scepter/focus on my necro but then it would mean that that will destroy my dps output, especially in combination with the spec choices. And a lot of it is micromanaging buffs/boons and durations in 1.x second durations and such. That just seems such a crazy approach for a game that is otherwise so casual oriented and then punishes people for caring about flavour and punishing other players by association in groups.

It just seems entirely superfluous just like many choices that aren't actually choices when it comes down to it. Like most stat sets should be ignored if you want to do decent DPS, so why do we even have them?

And you see, you can blame players for not wanting to learn "proper" builds and such but the game shouldn't be made to appeal to casual players and then make the character build system so convoluted that people get lost too easily or simply don't care about it cause they don't or because they make choices based on what they like. The difference in DPS output is also too large between such players and "pro" players. I can get that being a good player should result in a better output but the range is so big in this game and it caters to a minority of players so it's never gonna get better like this.

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Some things I have encountered/noticed:

  • Yesterday after the pvp following a failed Drakkar I was left "in-combat" and therefore not able to mount to leave or to waypoint, I had to logout in order to get out of combat, and I didn't attack anyone, I just res'ed a few people. There's that 8 minute condition that stops you from entering gates, but even after that expired I was still "in-combat". It was the second time that happened to me.
  • I also noticed that trying to res other players is punished hard in this fight due to the myriad aoe and shock waves etc., I would end up downed myself if I tried to wait for the whole res.
  • In the mob shield phase every time I pulled something to the shield it would almost immediately be pushed away, does the shield do that or was it players?
  • I have never been able to open the big sphere thing that appears with the rewards, is there a condition you have to fulfill for that?
  • With the green circles/dropping orbs, does it make any difference how many people go in the circle or is one enough? I.e. should I go to the circle if there is already at least one player there?
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@blp.3489 said:

  • I have never been able to open the big sphere thing that appears with the rewards, is there a condition you have to fulfill for that?

The only things that appear are;

  • The big ice chest which is auto opened if you have auto loot on (once a day)
  • The 3 chests with the coloured bubbles require t2 of your mastery before you can open manually
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@Randulf.7614 said:

@blp.3489 said:
  • I have never been able to open the big sphere thing that appears with the rewards, is there a condition you have to fulfill for that?

The only things that appear are;
  • The big ice chest which is auto opened if you have auto loot on (once a day)
  • The 3 chests with the coloured bubbles require t2 of your mastery before you can open manually

The big icy chest is lootable if you come on a different character

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@TallBarr.2184 said:

@blp.3489 said:
  • I have never been able to open the big sphere thing that appears with the rewards, is there a condition you have to fulfill for that?

The only things that appear are;
  • The big ice chest which is auto opened if you have auto loot on (once a day)
  • The 3 chests with the coloured bubbles require t2 of your mastery before you can open manually

The big icy chest is lootable if you come on a different character

Ah that is useful to know. i'd heard it was once per account. Thanks

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:had Drakkar fail today, because the first raven's gate phase took ages, after the first breakbar took ages. The time lost there was never recovered.

There are two problems:

a) people who think that pressing 1 is enoughb) people who think that cc is something they do not need to do.

there is another general problem haunting the whole game:idiots pushing mobs out of the melee group with knockback.

but at least those people are not a problem during Drakkar.From the whole whooping 2 drakkars I've done (one prepatch and one after, both successfull) that looks to be the same reason as always - too many people scaling the mobs. It's the same thing as in every other event. 5 competent players with decent dps and CC will kill champions faster than 30 with mediocre dps that barely understand what CC is. And of course, everyone rushes the first gate.My feeling though is that the mediocre or worse players are the vast majority of the player base. And there are things that ArenaNet could do to improve that situation but this isn't it.

It's not just a feeling. The vast majority of players are of the extra casual sort who don't have proper builds and don't care to learn how to DPS or apply boons properly. Many are so oblivious to what is going on that they will stand and die in the middle of a big red pulsating circle and then ask what happened.Well that makes it an interesting, because the game does cater a lot to casuals, except when it comes to character builds. Considering the content, I think the character builds including weapon choice, stat choice, spec choice, trait choice etc. it seems that it's rather unnecessarily complex compared to the simplicity of the actual combat and player base.

One of the things I never understood in this game for example is the huge impact of which weapons you choose. So for flavour purposes I may want to play a staff and scepter/focus on my necro but then it would mean that that will destroy my dps output, especially in combination with the spec choices. And a lot of it is micromanaging buffs/boons and durations in 1.x second durations and such. That just seems such a crazy approach for a game that is otherwise so casual oriented and then punishes people for caring about flavour and punishing other players by association in groups.

It just seems entirely superfluous just like many choices that aren't actually choices when it comes down to it. Like most stat sets should be ignored if you want to do decent DPS, so why do we even have them?

And you see, you can blame players for not wanting to learn "proper" builds and such but the game shouldn't be made to appeal to casual players and then make the character build system so convoluted that people get lost too easily or simply don't care about it cause they don't or because they make choices based on what they like. The difference in DPS output is also too large between such players and "pro" players. I can get that being a good player should result in a better output but the range is so big in this game and it caters to a minority of players so it's never gonna get better like this.

If the options are there to either bring more DPS or Support and the player chooses not to use them then that is the player's fault. This is a multiplayer game, the way you play affects other people's experience and Drakkar is a fine example of that. Do you want to be a burden and have people carry you through or do you want to bring something worth while to the fight and have the satisfaction of pulling your own weight? If you want to bring something worthwhile to the group then you need a half decent build and half decent rotation. It doesn't have to be meta, you just need to make sure there is some synergy between you trait and weapons/utilities, armor that isn't all toughness/vitality, and know how to press something other than 1.

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@"Bassdeff.1895" said:If the options are there to either bring more DPS or Support and the player chooses not to use them then that is the player's fault.

Not if the game caters to casuals and makes it largely unnecesary to dig into the skills and traits.This is a multiplayer game, the way you play affects other people's experience and Drakkar is a fine example of that.

Since most of the game's content can be soloed, that's not an argument. You know just as I do, that most world bosses are snooze fests that can be beaten just by being there long enough. In other words the game doesn't require you to be better, so why would you?Do you want to be a burden and have people carry you through or do you want to bring something worth while to the fight and have the satisfaction of pulling your own weight?

A lot of people just want to have fun. They're not interested in complex systems and "pulling their weight". That sort of thing should be kept in actual structured group content like fractals, raids and strike missions.If you want to bring something worthwhile to the group then you need a half decent build and half decent rotation.

But not everybody does or cares about that, especially if it's an annoying build system.It doesn't have to be meta, you just need to make sure there is some synergy between you trait and weapons/utilities, armor that isn't all toughness/vitality, and know how to press something other than 1.It doesn't have to be anything. It's open world content and ArenaNet just needs to make a decision on how they view it. There are a few world bosses that are hard. Drakkar is not such one. If the group is big enough the fight will succeed. It's just smaller groups that fail now.

Listen, this game caters to casuals more than anything. You're not going to change the casual player. A world boss is open world content and you will have a lot of casuals there. In the end it's clear to me that GW1 had a much more effective build system also because it was a LOT more straightforward. Just look at the irony of this game catering to casuals and then you see the upcoming patch notes for class changes with things like durations being changed from 1.2 seconds to 0.9 seconds. That level of micro management of skills and traits doesn't actually fit in a game that caters to casuals.

I would agree with you in other games on most of your points. But because this game is mostly casual, the character build system is just way too complex for what this game is and you're not going to get casuals on board with this. Everything you mention in your post simply doesn't make sense because GW2 is casual oriented and open world content isn't really group content...it's zerg content. If you were talking about raids, sure, but don't expect casuals to even set foot in there...as we know ArenaNet themselves have said that raids are for a very small group of people. They added strike missions to be a stepping stone to raids but the problem is the build system with all the stuff like weapon choices, traits, stat sets, etc. That's the first barrier and everything after that is irrelevant as long as you don't take down the first barrier.

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