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Jormag IS Koda

So I am going to preface this by saying I am not a huge lore buff, so I might recall some details incorrectly. However, this idea popped into my head and I enjoyed the thought so much I thought why not share it. And on the extremely rare chance I am even partially correct, atleast I get bragging rights to say I came with the idea first (atleast I couldn't find any discussions for this inane idea anyways). So with that outta the way, here is my theory.
While exploring the new map extension of Bjora I noticed that the devs went into the effort of implementing a Claw of Jormag that flies around the sky and roaring occasionally. You don't seem to be able to interact with it as far as I can tell, but it is a really nice feature to put in the environment. It was then it got me thinking, this map now not only has a Claw of Jormag, but Drakkar throughout the story is repeatable refer to as its "mouthpiece". Interesting phrasing. I guess you could say..... Drakkar is its voice....a "Voice" of Jormag. I think you see what I am getting at.

For some reason or other Jormag has both a Voice and a Claw. Similar to that of the Kodan and their belief system with Koda. Isn't it also interesting that there is SUCH an emphasis on the kodan whenever Jormag is involved. It is the kodan who are holding the line in Bitterfrost frontier, it is they who shut themselves out from the rest of the world in Still Waters Speaking to prevent the whispers from spreading father. Now of course an easy explanation is because of course they are the only ones you would interact this far up north-no other race is this far north since the norn fled. And yet, during the meta event on the new map Jormag says it themselves.....they are trying to help the kodan and the norn. Why so specific? Why not just say "I am trying to help you all." Why specifically call out the kodan. It almost as if they have a deeper connection with one another wink wink

Another thing I would like to point out, is the tendency for the Voice of Koda to go ....insane during their duties. Recall if you will from vanilla gw2 maps like Frostgourge Sound where you have events like "passifying"(beating the kitten out of) the Voice at one of their floating sanctuaries when they go beserk. Hell I think even one of the dungeons, Honor the Waves, even touches on that as a plot point where you attempt to rescue the Voice only to find out later they've been turned by Jormag. So it seems it is pretty common for the Voice of Koda to eventually go insane upon listening to it after awhile. Know who also makes you go insane when you listen to it's whispers? That's right...Jormag. Hell in this patch alone we have not one but TWO examples of this happening. The first we hear about Ushers-In-Spring who was the Voice of Still Waters Speaking who attempted to listen to the whispers and was turned. The second being the norn scholar you follow while doing the achievement "A Hunger for Knowledge" where we find them dead after mistakenly listening to Jormag's voice because they thought it was a friend's. It seems curious how Jormag and Koda seems so alike in how they operate doesn't it. Both how their own Voice and Claw, both whisper knowledge and guidance, and both will eventually make you crazed by their whispers.

So I know what you are thinking, no-they cannot be the same, surely the kodan themselves would be able to tell the difference between Koda speaking to them and Jormag right? Once again this patch explains it very well. That norn scholar I mentioned earlier, recall how I said that the reason they died was cause they mistakenly thought the voice they were listening to was their friend's voice. So we know that Jormag can change their voice to sound like basically ....anyone they want. A friend..... a family member... maybe even Koda itself?

So my theory is simply that either Jormag is essentially Koda, or at the very least highly connected and intertwined with Koda (maybe Koda is a piece of Jormag like (spoilers the Whisper of Jormag end spoilers). There are just too many similarities between the two for it to just to be a coincidence. Now I am going to leave the post here for now cause I actually have to go to work. XD Hope you enjoy reading my stupid idea.

Comments

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 2, 2020

    @Xanthia.7209 said:
    So I am going to preface this by saying I am not a huge lore buff, so I might recall some details incorrectly. However, this idea popped into my head and I enjoyed the thought so much I thought why not share it. And on the extremely rare chance I am even partially correct, atleast I get bragging rights to say I came with the idea first (atleast I couldn't find any discussions for this inane idea anyways). So with that outta the way, here is my theory.
    While exploring the new map extension of Bjora I noticed that the devs went into the effort of implementing a Claw of Jormag that flies around the sky and roaring occasionally. You don't seem to be able to interact with it as far as I can tell, but it is a really nice feature to put in the environment. It was then it got me thinking, this map now not only has a Claw of Jormag, but Drakkar throughout the story is repeatable refer to as its "mouthpiece". Interesting phrasing. I guess you could say..... Drakkar is its voice....a "Voice" of Jormag. I think you see what I am getting at.

    For some reason or other Jormag has both a Voice and a Claw. Similar to that of the Kodan and their belief system with Koda. Isn't it also interesting that there is SUCH an emphasis on the kodan whenever Jormag is involved. It is the kodan who are holding the line in Bitterfrost frontier, it is they who shut themselves out from the rest of the world in Still Waters Speaking to prevent the whispers from spreading father. Now of course an easy explanation is because of course they are the only ones you would interact this far up north-no other race is this far north since the norn fled. And yet, during the meta event on the new map Jormag says it themselves.....they are trying to help the kodan and the norn. Why so specific? Why not just say "I am trying to help you all." Why specifically call out the kodan. It almost as if they have a deeper connection with one another wink wink

    Another thing I would like to point out, is the tendency for the Voice of Koda to go ....insane during their duties. Recall if you will from vanilla gw2 maps like Frostgourge Sound where you have events like "passifying"(beating the kitten out of) the Voice at one of their floating sanctuaries when they go beserk. Hell I think even one of the dungeons, Honor the Waves, even touches on that as a plot point where you attempt to rescue the Voice only to find out later they've been turned by Jormag. So it seems it is pretty common for the Voice of Koda to eventually go insane upon listening to it after awhile. Know who also makes you go insane when you listen to it's whispers? That's right...Jormag. Hell in this patch alone we have not one but TWO examples of this happening. The first we hear about Ushers-In-Spring who was the Voice of Still Waters Speaking who attempted to listen to the whispers and was turned. The second being the norn scholar you follow while doing the achievement "A Hunger for Knowledge" where we find them dead after mistakenly listening to Jormag's voice because they thought it was a friend's. It seems curious how Jormag and Koda seems so alike in how they operate doesn't it. Both how their own Voice and Claw, both whisper knowledge and guidance, and both will eventually make you crazed by their whispers.

    So I know what you are thinking, no-they cannot be the same, surely the kodan themselves would be able to tell the difference between Koda speaking to them and Jormag right? Once again this patch explains it very well. That norn scholar I mentioned earlier, recall how I said that the reason they died was cause they mistakenly thought the voice they were listening to was their friend's voice. So we know that Jormag can change their voice to sound like basically ....anyone they want. A friend..... a family member... maybe even Koda itself?

    So my theory is simply that either Jormag is essentially Koda, or at the very least highly connected and intertwined with Koda (maybe Koda is a piece of Jormag like (spoilers the Whisper of Jormag end spoilers). There are just too many similarities between the two for it to just to be a coincidence. Now I am going to leave the post here for now cause I actually have to go to work. XD Hope you enjoy reading my stupid idea.

    I love where you're going with this and I'm open to this possibility. However, there is a detail hidden within this theory that the playerbase has long abandoned. It goes something like this: If Koda is an aspect of Jormag and, therefore, Jormag is Koda, then it is entirely possible that the Spirits of the Wild are aspects of Jormag, such that they are Jormag; and, last but by no means least, that means that...

    The human gods may be aspects of the Elder Dragons and, if so, the Elder Dragons are the human gods. The latter possibility is raised by Varajar Fells and excluded by Dragons and Gods, or so it would seem.

    What I have outlined is impossible to avoid, should you embrace the idea that Koda is Jormag. And don't get me wrong: I'm not here to tell you not to correlate Koda, the Spirits of the Wild, or the human gods, with the Elder Dragons. In fact, I find the constant broaching of topics such as this, in which players try to associate the races' greater powers with the Elder Dragons, forms compelling evidence that the gods and the dragons are somehow related. However, I recommend that you adopt the simplest explanation at this point: As Dragons and Gods reveals, even if there is a correlation between greater powers and the Elder Dragons, there is no direct evidence demonstrating as much and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that, somehow, Koda and Jormag are distinct. It falls to us to understand why they are different.

    Here's a take that might help you to discern a difference: The kodan are fighting against Jormag and those who have complete mastery of their minds do not easily form pacts with Jormag. If Koda really was Jormag, we would expect that the entire kodan race would be easily corrupted by the Elder Dragon and that we would not meet so many of their kind who actively resist the serpent's influence.

    I encourage you to explore the other side of the mystery (the idea that Koda is somehow distinct from Jormag) that you have touched-upon, so that whatever position you take, you demonstrate through eloquence of writing and fair-mindedness why other players should adopt your viewpoint.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I like this and had another crackpot theory the other day. Let me drop this in real fast:

    "According to kodan beliefs, Koda is a primal spirit who formed Tyria and the spirits in it.[1] The spirits were untamed, and some of them took physical form over time. One day, the bear stood up and asked Koda why the spirits had to go through endless cycles of creation and destruction. Koda was pleased by this show of curiosity and made the bear an offer:"

    What if Koda is the Spirit of the Dragon that's been mentioned a few times. What if Koda is the FIRST elder dragon, the one that shaped Tyria.

    Then - what if the the spirits that took physical form over time were the other elder dragons? The other spirits being the ones that didn't take physical shape?

    The only downside to this is the whole thing with the All. But it could be possible that the elder dragons that took physical form were greater spirits than the spirits of the wild. The top tier. OR - the possibility that the elder dragons were imbued at some point, but the idea of them being greater than the greater incorporeal spirits we know like Bear/Raven and such seems a bit more plausible.

    Just a wild and unlikely theory. In terms of the true connection between Jormag and Koda, it could be as simple as Jormag abusing Koda's nature similar to how he's abusing the other lost spirits. Twisting their nature with its own.

    It is an important thing to note though, and I never made the connection. They're definitely getting at something with the fact that Jormag has "Whispers" and a mouthpiece, and a Claw.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Problems with Koda being Jormag:

    • The Kodan are adamantly opposed to Jormag, as is most of the imagery associated with Koda. Sky and fire, life and warmth, harmony with nature, "balance" and so on. Very much NOT the description of ANY Elder Dragon, much less Jormag. If anything, the description of Koda has more in common with Melandru or the Spirits of the Wild than with anything about the Elder Dragons.

    • It's also highly unlikely that Jormag, who apparently was one of the biggest havoc-wreakers of the last rising, would have warned the Kodan to hide through the Dragonstorm as Koda did.

    More on Koda here...

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Koda

  • I feel like this is accidental parallelism. Maybe one can argue for intentional parallelism made out of an opportunity.

    Drakkar wasn't always intended to be a champion, let alone some "mouthpiece". The original design for it was to be Jormag itself in that frozen lake (and the remnants of this is even visible in some core game NPCs that say Jormag rose from Drakkar Lake). They needed to make Drakkar a "mouthpiece" of sorts to fit with EotN's story and lore, when they decided that the creature in Drakkar Lake was too small to be an Elder Dragon (it's roughly on par to Claw of Jormag's size, though Drakkar's GW2 model is on par to Vlast, Glint, and Elder Aurene).

    Beyond the existence of many Claws and a singular "mouthpiece", there isn't really a solid parallel between Jormag and Koda so I'm inclined to think it's accidental.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    Jormag's an opportunist, and it wouldn't surprise me that he's capable of utilizing terminology and structure of Kodan society as a tool to better convert them. By saying he has Claws and Voices, he's already setting the seed of being 'part' of Kodan Society of which is a healthy race for him to corrupt in the far north by being relatable.

    There's a higher than normal possibility this was a long-running lore parallel from when Jormag was first drafted, and maybe it might come to shine that maybe he is Koda though.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    To be honest? I always figured it was the other way around. The kodan saw these dragons coming after them, they saw the icebrood following these dragons into battle, and the term for a war leader in kodan society is Claw. 'Claw of Jormag' from a kodan is like 'Champion of Primordus' from an asura.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Xanthia.7209 said:
    So I am going to preface this by saying I am not a huge lore buff, so I might recall some details incorrectly. However, this idea popped into my head and I enjoyed the thought so much I thought why not share it. And on the extremely rare chance I am even partially correct, atleast I get bragging rights to say I came with the idea first (atleast I couldn't find any discussions for this inane idea anyways). So with that outta the way, here is my theory.
    While exploring the new map extension of Bjora I noticed that the devs went into the effort of implementing a Claw of Jormag that flies around the sky and roaring occasionally. You don't seem to be able to interact with it as far as I can tell, but it is a really nice feature to put in the environment. It was then it got me thinking, this map now not only has a Claw of Jormag, but Drakkar throughout the story is repeatable refer to as its "mouthpiece". Interesting phrasing. I guess you could say..... Drakkar is its voice....a "Voice" of Jormag. I think you see what I am getting at.

    For some reason or other Jormag has both a Voice and a Claw. Similar to that of the Kodan and their belief system with Koda. Isn't it also interesting that there is SUCH an emphasis on the kodan whenever Jormag is involved. It is the kodan who are holding the line in Bitterfrost frontier, it is they who shut themselves out from the rest of the world in Still Waters Speaking to prevent the whispers from spreading father. Now of course an easy explanation is because of course they are the only ones you would interact this far up north-no other race is this far north since the norn fled. And yet, during the meta event on the new map Jormag says it themselves.....they are trying to help the kodan and the norn. Why so specific? Why not just say "I am trying to help you all." Why specifically call out the kodan. It almost as if they have a deeper connection with one another wink wink

    Another thing I would like to point out, is the tendency for the Voice of Koda to go ....insane during their duties. Recall if you will from vanilla gw2 maps like Frostgourge Sound where you have events like "passifying"(beating the kitten out of) the Voice at one of their floating sanctuaries when they go beserk. Hell I think even one of the dungeons, Honor the Waves, even touches on that as a plot point where you attempt to rescue the Voice only to find out later they've been turned by Jormag. So it seems it is pretty common for the Voice of Koda to eventually go insane upon listening to it after awhile. Know who also makes you go insane when you listen to it's whispers? That's right...Jormag. Hell in this patch alone we have not one but TWO examples of this happening. The first we hear about Ushers-In-Spring who was the Voice of Still Waters Speaking who attempted to listen to the whispers and was turned. The second being the norn scholar you follow while doing the achievement "A Hunger for Knowledge" where we find them dead after mistakenly listening to Jormag's voice because they thought it was a friend's. It seems curious how Jormag and Koda seems so alike in how they operate doesn't it. Both how their own Voice and Claw, both whisper knowledge and guidance, and both will eventually make you crazed by their whispers.

    So I know what you are thinking, no-they cannot be the same, surely the kodan themselves would be able to tell the difference between Koda speaking to them and Jormag right? Once again this patch explains it very well. That norn scholar I mentioned earlier, recall how I said that the reason they died was cause they mistakenly thought the voice they were listening to was their friend's voice. So we know that Jormag can change their voice to sound like basically ....anyone they want. A friend..... a family member... maybe even Koda itself?

    So my theory is simply that either Jormag is essentially Koda, or at the very least highly connected and intertwined with Koda (maybe Koda is a piece of Jormag like (spoilers the Whisper of Jormag end spoilers). There are just too many similarities between the two for it to just to be a coincidence. Now I am going to leave the post here for now cause I actually have to go to work. XD Hope you enjoy reading my stupid idea.

    I love where you're going with this and I'm open to this possibility. However, there is a detail hidden within this theory that the playerbase has long abandoned. It goes something like this: If Koda is an aspect of Jormag and, therefore, Jormag is Koda, then it is entirely possible that the Spirits of the Wild are aspects of Jormag, such that they are Jormag; and, last but by no means least, that means that...

    The human gods may be aspects of the Elder Dragons and, if so, the Elder Dragons are the human gods. The latter possibility is raised by Varajar Fells and excluded by Dragons and Gods, or so it would seem.

    What I have outlined is impossible to avoid, should you embrace the idea that Koda is Jormag. And don't get me wrong: I'm not here to tell you not to correlate Koda, the Spirits of the Wild, or the human gods, with the Elder Dragons. In fact, I find the constant broaching of topics such as this, in which players try to associate the races' greater powers with the Elder Dragons, forms compelling evidence that the gods and the dragons are somehow related. However, I recommend that you adopt the simplest explanation at this point: As Dragons and Gods reveals, even if there is a correlation between greater powers and the Elder Dragons, there is no direct evidence demonstrating as much and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that, somehow, Koda and Jormag are distinct. It falls to us to understand why they are different.

    Here's a take that might help you to discern a difference: The kodan are fighting against Jormag and those who have complete mastery of their minds do not easily form pacts with Jormag. If Koda really was Jormag, we would expect that the entire kodan race would be easily corrupted by the Elder Dragon and that we would not meet so many of their kind who actively resist the serpent's influence.

    I encourage you to explore the other side of the mystery (the idea that Koda is somehow distinct from Jormag) that you have touched-upon, so that whatever position you take, you demonstrate through eloquence of writing and fair-mindedness why other players should adopt your viewpoint.

    The Varajar Fells things seems to be a result of the alliance between the human gods, the Forgotten, and Glint. The aspects are fundamentally equivalent to those in Glint's lair, except that the Facet of Elements - which possibly once represented Abaddon - is replaced by the Facet of Spirit, representing Kormir.

    One of the important things to note about the human gods is that they explicitly came from somewhere else. As a result, the strongest connection that can realistically be made is that the gods were a more benign equivalent to the Elder Dragons from the world they came from.

    Koda, by contrast, seems to be a native to Tyria. Therefore, the case made here could apply to Koda (a Tyrian native deity) while not applying to the human gods (aliens to Tyria, or at least in the case of gods that have ascended since they arrived, the divine power that makes them gods is alien to Tyria).

    That said, I do think it's more likely that the coincidences are accidental, or even that similarities in names comes from the kodan themselves using terms from their culture to apply to analogues among Jormag's minions.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @draxynnic.3719 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Xanthia.7209 said:
    So I am going to preface this by saying I am not a huge lore buff, so I might recall some details incorrectly. However, this idea popped into my head and I enjoyed the thought so much I thought why not share it. And on the extremely rare chance I am even partially correct, atleast I get bragging rights to say I came with the idea first (atleast I couldn't find any discussions for this inane idea anyways). So with that outta the way, here is my theory.
    While exploring the new map extension of Bjora I noticed that the devs went into the effort of implementing a Claw of Jormag that flies around the sky and roaring occasionally. You don't seem to be able to interact with it as far as I can tell, but it is a really nice feature to put in the environment. It was then it got me thinking, this map now not only has a Claw of Jormag, but Drakkar throughout the story is repeatable refer to as its "mouthpiece". Interesting phrasing. I guess you could say..... Drakkar is its voice....a "Voice" of Jormag. I think you see what I am getting at.

    For some reason or other Jormag has both a Voice and a Claw. Similar to that of the Kodan and their belief system with Koda. Isn't it also interesting that there is SUCH an emphasis on the kodan whenever Jormag is involved. It is the kodan who are holding the line in Bitterfrost frontier, it is they who shut themselves out from the rest of the world in Still Waters Speaking to prevent the whispers from spreading father. Now of course an easy explanation is because of course they are the only ones you would interact this far up north-no other race is this far north since the norn fled. And yet, during the meta event on the new map Jormag says it themselves.....they are trying to help the kodan and the norn. Why so specific? Why not just say "I am trying to help you all." Why specifically call out the kodan. It almost as if they have a deeper connection with one another wink wink

    Another thing I would like to point out, is the tendency for the Voice of Koda to go ....insane during their duties. Recall if you will from vanilla gw2 maps like Frostgourge Sound where you have events like "passifying"(beating the kitten out of) the Voice at one of their floating sanctuaries when they go beserk. Hell I think even one of the dungeons, Honor the Waves, even touches on that as a plot point where you attempt to rescue the Voice only to find out later they've been turned by Jormag. So it seems it is pretty common for the Voice of Koda to eventually go insane upon listening to it after awhile. Know who also makes you go insane when you listen to it's whispers? That's right...Jormag. Hell in this patch alone we have not one but TWO examples of this happening. The first we hear about Ushers-In-Spring who was the Voice of Still Waters Speaking who attempted to listen to the whispers and was turned. The second being the norn scholar you follow while doing the achievement "A Hunger for Knowledge" where we find them dead after mistakenly listening to Jormag's voice because they thought it was a friend's. It seems curious how Jormag and Koda seems so alike in how they operate doesn't it. Both how their own Voice and Claw, both whisper knowledge and guidance, and both will eventually make you crazed by their whispers.

    So I know what you are thinking, no-they cannot be the same, surely the kodan themselves would be able to tell the difference between Koda speaking to them and Jormag right? Once again this patch explains it very well. That norn scholar I mentioned earlier, recall how I said that the reason they died was cause they mistakenly thought the voice they were listening to was their friend's voice. So we know that Jormag can change their voice to sound like basically ....anyone they want. A friend..... a family member... maybe even Koda itself?

    So my theory is simply that either Jormag is essentially Koda, or at the very least highly connected and intertwined with Koda (maybe Koda is a piece of Jormag like (spoilers the Whisper of Jormag end spoilers). There are just too many similarities between the two for it to just to be a coincidence. Now I am going to leave the post here for now cause I actually have to go to work. XD Hope you enjoy reading my stupid idea.

    I love where you're going with this and I'm open to this possibility. However, there is a detail hidden within this theory that the playerbase has long abandoned. It goes something like this: If Koda is an aspect of Jormag and, therefore, Jormag is Koda, then it is entirely possible that the Spirits of the Wild are aspects of Jormag, such that they are Jormag; and, last but by no means least, that means that...

    The human gods may be aspects of the Elder Dragons and, if so, the Elder Dragons are the human gods. The latter possibility is raised by Varajar Fells and excluded by Dragons and Gods, or so it would seem.

    What I have outlined is impossible to avoid, should you embrace the idea that Koda is Jormag. And don't get me wrong: I'm not here to tell you not to correlate Koda, the Spirits of the Wild, or the human gods, with the Elder Dragons. In fact, I find the constant broaching of topics such as this, in which players try to associate the races' greater powers with the Elder Dragons, forms compelling evidence that the gods and the dragons are somehow related. However, I recommend that you adopt the simplest explanation at this point: As Dragons and Gods reveals, even if there is a correlation between greater powers and the Elder Dragons, there is no direct evidence demonstrating as much and, therefore, it is reasonable to conclude that, somehow, Koda and Jormag are distinct. It falls to us to understand why they are different.

    Here's a take that might help you to discern a difference: The kodan are fighting against Jormag and those who have complete mastery of their minds do not easily form pacts with Jormag. If Koda really was Jormag, we would expect that the entire kodan race would be easily corrupted by the Elder Dragon and that we would not meet so many of their kind who actively resist the serpent's influence.

    I encourage you to explore the other side of the mystery (the idea that Koda is somehow distinct from Jormag) that you have touched-upon, so that whatever position you take, you demonstrate through eloquence of writing and fair-mindedness why other players should adopt your viewpoint.

    The Varajar Fells things seems to be a result of the alliance between the human gods, the Forgotten, and Glint. The aspects are fundamentally equivalent to those in Glint's lair, except that the Facet of Elements - which possibly once represented Abaddon - is replaced by the Facet of Spirit, representing Kormir.

    One of the important things to note about the human gods is that they explicitly came from somewhere else. As a result, the strongest connection that can realistically be made is that the gods were a more benign equivalent to the Elder Dragons from the world they came from.

    Koda, by contrast, seems to be a native to Tyria. Therefore, the case made here could apply to Koda (a Tyrian native deity) while not applying to the human gods (aliens to Tyria, or at least in the case of gods that have ascended since they arrived, the divine power that makes them gods is alien to Tyria).

    That said, I do think it's more likely that the coincidences are accidental, or even that similarities in names comes from the kodan themselves using terms from their culture to apply to analogues among Jormag's minions.

    I was always curious as to why we think that humans came from somewhere else. Do you have a source that you can direct me to for this?

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head: our understanding of Jormag is based, in part, on paradigms passed on to us by the kodan. Their worldview forms part of our own.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I was always curious as to why we think that humans came from somewhere else. Do you have a source that you can direct me to for this?

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head: our understanding of Jormag is based, in part, on paradigms passed on to us by the kodan. Their worldview forms part of our own.

    It was mentioned all the way back in Guild Wars 1 that the god brought humanity from somewhere else. Its been mentioned in GW2 also, there's some scrolls in Orr that mention it
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    "She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."
    "Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame."
    "It was he who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat. It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong."
    "Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse. She urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded."
    "When she saw destruction, she brought creation. Where she saw anger, she grew love. With this, Melandru prepared for a future she knew would be troubled."
    "The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past."
    "For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."
    "Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember."
    "Abaddon, Abaddon. Your name has been erased from the towers, your cathedral condemned to the sea. Turn your faces away, oh sons and daughters, and let not his gifts tempt you."
    "Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow.
    "Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise."

    From what little we know, it seems the 6 brought humanity to Tyria after fleeing some sort of conflict on whatever world they came from, one that, seemingly, claimed the life of Balthazar's father.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I was always curious as to why we think that humans came from somewhere else. Do you have a source that you can direct me to for this?

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head: our understanding of Jormag is based, in part, on paradigms passed on to us by the kodan. Their worldview forms part of our own.

    It was mentioned all the way back in Guild wars1 that the god brought humanity from somewhere else. Its been mentioned in GW2 also, there's some scrolls in Orr that mention it
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    "She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."
    "Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame."
    "It was he who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat. It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong."
    "Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse. She urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded."
    "When she saw destruction, she brought creation. Where she saw anger, she grew love. With this, Melandru prepared for a future she knew would be troubled."
    "The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past."
    "For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."
    "Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember."
    "Abaddon, Abaddon. Your name has been erased from the towers, your cathedral condemned to the sea. Turn your faces away, oh sons and daughters, and let not his gifts tempt you."
    "Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow.
    "Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise."

    From what little we know, it seems the 6 brought humanity to Tyria after fleeing some sort of tragedy on whatever world they came from.

    Hmm...I concede that one interpretation of Dwayna's bringing "humanity to the world" is that humans migrated from one world to another. However, that isn't the only interpretation of the text. I don't think that the OHS is meant to be a historical record of mankind's migration. When the Scroll says that Dwayna places her "pale foot" on a world, it could mean that the goddess guides the evolutionary path of races already present on it. In other words, the first line could mean that, without Dwayna's guidance, races like humanity cannot be cultivated from the raw stock of barbaric lifeforms present on a planet.

    I would prefer the reference from GW1. (Does anyone know it? If so, please post it in the comments of this discussion.) That, in my opinion at least, would be far more authoritative.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Hmm...I concede that one interpretation of Dwayna's bringing "humanity to the world" is that humans migrated from one world to another. However, that isn't the only interpretation of the text. I don't think that the OHS is meant to be a historical record of mankind's migration. When Dwayna places her foot on a world, it could just as easily mean that she has guided the evolutionary development of races already present on it, including humanity. In other words, the first line could mean that, without Dwayna's guidance, races like humanity cannot be cultivated from the raw stock of barbaric lifeforms present on a world.

    I would prefer the reference from GW1. That, in my opinion at least, would be far more authoritative.

    Read the whole thing next time. As it states later on
    -"She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."
    -"The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past."
    Its specifically stated that Dwayna led her people(humanity) to peace on Tyria after choosing it as the new world for them, and Lyssa mingled with humanity to help them forget whatever troubled past they had.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    I was always curious as to why we think that humans came from somewhere else. Do you have a source that you can direct me to for this?

    I think that you've hit the nail on the head: our understanding of Jormag is based, in part, on paradigms passed on to us by the kodan. Their worldview forms part of our own.

    It was mentioned all the way back in Guild wars1 that the god brought humanity from somewhere else. Its been mentioned in GW2 also, there's some scrolls in Orr that mention it
    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six

    "The first of the gods to step forth from the mists was Dwayna, goddess of air and life. She placed her pale foot on the stones of Arah, opened the gates, and brought humanity to the world."
    "She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."
    "Balthazar came in fire and wrath, carrying the head of his father and leading his fierce hounds, Temar and Tegon. He swept Orr with a cleansing flame."
    "It was he who claimed Tyria for humanity; he who said the other races would be easy to defeat. It would not be the only time that the Master of War was wrong."
    "Next came the goddess of nature. Wise Melandru, oldest of them all, made of Orr a green and flowering expanse. She urged peace with the races already present on this world, but her advice was not heeded."
    "When she saw destruction, she brought creation. Where she saw anger, she grew love. With this, Melandru prepared for a future she knew would be troubled."
    "The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past."
    "For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road."
    "Among them was Abaddon—once secret-keeper, now betrayer. How you have fallen from the glorious days of old. What passed beyond in the Mists, only you remember."
    "Abaddon, Abaddon. Your name has been erased from the towers, your cathedral condemned to the sea. Turn your faces away, oh sons and daughters, and let not his gifts tempt you."
    "Grenth, son of Dwayna, first god born of Tyria. His powers deal in mortality and judgment. Defeater of Dhuum, Lord of the Seven Reapers, he is the prince of ice and sorrow.
    "Standing before his immortal mother, Grenth claimed his place among the gods. Where his father had fallen, Grenth would rise."

    From what little we know, it seems the 6 brought humanity to Tyria after fleeing some sort of tragedy on whatever world they came from.

    Hmm...I concede that one interpretation of Dwayna's bringing "humanity to the world" is that humans migrated from one world to another. However, that isn't the only interpretation of the text. I don't think that the OHS is meant to be a historical record of mankind's migration. When the Scroll says that Dwayna places her "pale foot" on a world, it could mean that the goddess guides the evolutionary path of races already present on it. In other words, the first line could mean that, without Dwayna's guidance, races like humanity cannot be cultivated from the raw stock of barbaric lifeforms present on a planet.

    I would prefer the reference from GW1. (Does anyone know it? If so, please post it in the comments of this discussion.) That, in my opinion at least, would be far more authoritative.

    It is mentioned throughout the personal story step "Cathedral of Silence"

    The Seventh Reaper: So shall it be. You seek the heart of Orr? Then you must go to the very beginning. The rock where the gods first set foot upon this world.

    Trahearne: Human myth says that when the Six Gods came to Tyria, they built the city of Arah. The "source" must be the place where they first set foot on Tyria.

    It was also explicitly confirmed by the devs a few times over. Off the top of my head is this commentary:

    Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own.

    And there are many, many, many more similar statements. It's long confirmed that humans, Forgotten, and the Six Gods are non-native to Tyria but come from (or beyond) the Mists.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    Hmm...I concede that one interpretation of Dwayna's bringing "humanity to the world" is that humans migrated from one world to another. However, that isn't the only interpretation of the text. I don't think that the OHS is meant to be a historical record of mankind's migration. When Dwayna places her foot on a world, it could just as easily mean that she has guided the evolutionary development of races already present on it, including humanity. In other words, the first line could mean that, without Dwayna's guidance, races like humanity cannot be cultivated from the raw stock of barbaric lifeforms present on a world.

    I would prefer the reference from GW1. That, in my opinion at least, would be far more authoritative.

    Read the whole thing next time. As it states later on
    -"She chose Tyria and brought with her those who would make this world a paradise. As she had promised, Dwayna led her people to peace."
    -"The two who are one, Issa and Lys, brought with her the hope and beauty of humanity. While the other gods focused on building Arah and beginning a new future, Lyssa gave them joy and helped them forget the past."
    Its specifically stated that Dwayna led her people(humanity) to peace on Tyria after choosing it as the new world for them, and Lyssa mingled with humanity to help them forget whatever troubled past they had.

    Fair enough. I will read it all next time.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Bast.7253Bast.7253 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would be interested to find out if Skorvald the Shattered and Viirastra have any connection to any of the ancient Tyrian races or how old they are in comparison the the Human Gods. Viiastra is just weird in general, but Skorvald always seemed like some ode to a Norse deity. With the Jotun being heavily into astronomy and originally being highly magically adept, I've always wondered if it was possible that they were Jotun that somehow wound up in the mists. Jotun before their civilization's fall, when they weren't such ugly mugs.

    It's probably cannon somewhere that Jotun and Norn aren't related in anyway, but I've always found it strange that current indications are that Norn are descendents of migrating Kodan. Especially when we have this race that looks far more typically humanoid. Then I again, I suppose somewhere in ancient history they could have all derived from the same beings.

    So many mysteries.

  • Skorvald, based on the dialogue, seems to just be a norn mercenary trapped in a fractal loop and somehow made aware of such by Arkk and seeking release/freedom. I imagine that the Legendary Brazen Gladiator from Chaos Fractal is the same. The way he mocks the group as heroes like Arkk does and wears mostly normal norn clothing but with "bling touchup" much like PCs, is largely what makes me think such.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Humans are from Somewhere Else. That has been explicitly stated in many places in the game lore ever since GW1. Now mind you, most humans these days probably don't know that their species isn't native to Tyria, and they certainly don't know what world humans originally came from; first Lyssa and then the distance of time have helped them forget. Just as immigrants in the real world grow distant from their Old Country generation by generation, so too have humans; humans today are native Tyrians, even if their species originally wasn't.

    The timeline on the official GW2 wiki fixes the date of the Six Gods' arrival -- with humans -- in 786 BE, roughly 2100ish years before the game present and at a bit over 9000 years after the last Dragonrise. Which would explain why the human gods were unpleasantly surprised by the Elder Dragons' existence, EXCEPT that Glint stated she was placed on Tyria as a guardian over 3000 years ago, and the Forgotten were apparently around for the last Dragonrise in roughly 10000 BE.

    One possible implication of these contradictory dates is that the Six may have been scouting and watching Tyria for a long time before their arrival. In any case, humans were known to have been in Cantha as early as 786 BE, and later spread to Orr and Elona in 205 BE, Orr being the place where the Six first revealed themselves at the Artesian Waters and then built Arah.

    But of course, another implication of all the vague dates and contradictions is that it could all be wrong. As the Durmand Priory likes to say, "History never lies. Historians, however..."

  • @Jimbru.6014 said:
    The timeline on the official GW2 wiki fixes the date of the Six Gods' arrival -- with humans -- in 786 BE, roughly 2100ish years before the game present and at a bit over 9000 years after the last Dragonrise. Which would explain why the human gods were unpleasantly surprised by the Elder Dragons' existence, EXCEPT that Glint stated she was placed on Tyria as a guardian over 3000 years ago, and the Forgotten were apparently around for the last Dragonrise in roughly 10000 BE.

    That is when humanity arrived on Cantha, not the world. Based on An Empire Divided, humans arrived on Cantha from across water - both in how the first Canthans are said to have arrived on shores, and Luxons having folklore about a home across seas.

    We do not have a date for when the Six Gods arrived on the world, nor humanity. It's said the Forgotten arrived on the world in 1769 BE, which coincides with Glint's 3,000 year comment. We don't really know for sure if the Forgotten were around prior to the previous dragonrise, or showed up in the middle of it, nor how long that dragonrise lasted (all lore surrounding Glint suggests that the date of 3,000 years ago is the date the Forgotten performed their ritual on her, in the end days of the dragonrise).

    Should be noted that the Six Gods were well aware of the Elder Dragons for quite some time, long before they woke up. So they weren't really surprised by their existence except for after arriving on the world. Which would imply they arrived post-Dragonrise. So our "best guess" for when the Six arrived would be in the 1,000 year gap between 1769 and 786 BE.

    Orr being the place where the Six first revealed themselves at the Artesian Waters and then built Arah.

    The Artesian Waters is where the Six Gods arrived on the world, rather than being where they "revealed themselves." And if we take the Orrian History Scrolls as accurate, Orr is where they first brought humans - but would have had to have taken them elsewhere for the rest of the timeline to work, with humans sailing their way back to Orr and Elona in 205 BE. The notion that humanity was taken to a third continent (perhaps the Sunrise Crest continent shown on the Durmand Priory map that has a naval route to The Battle isles) also makes the most sense given that the humans which sailed to Orr/Elona were not Canthans, and the Canthans sailed from somewhere.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Jimbru.6014Jimbru.6014 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The Artesian Waters is where the Six Gods arrived on the world, rather than being where they "revealed themselves." And if we take the Orrian History Scrolls as accurate, Orr is where they first brought humans - but would have had to have taken them elsewhere for the rest of the timeline to work, with humans sailing their way back to Orr and Elona in 205 BE. The notion that humanity was taken to a third continent (perhaps the Sunrise Crest continent shown on the Durmand Priory map that has a naval route to The Battle isles) also makes the most sense given that the humans which sailed to Orr/Elona were not Canthans, and the Canthans sailed from somewhere.

    When I said "revealed themselves" I meant that was when the gods arrived and became actively present in Tyria. Though again, their servants were here mucking about long before that.

    As for the movement of humans, I don't see a need for a third place in the middle. The stories say Balthazar "swept Orr with a cleansing flame" -- implying conflict in Orr with whatever existed there when the gods and humans arrived. So it could have gone something like this...

    • Gods and humans arrive in Orr.
    • The Six: "Oops, there's already other things here. Humans, go south to Cantha where it's safe. We'll handle this. Get em Balthy!"
    • So the humans go south to Cantha -- "across the sea" from Orr -- and establish themselves there while the gods do some divine urban renewal on Orr. Balthazar's "cleansing", Melandru making the earth fertile and green, and so forth.
    • Eventually, after Orr is cleared and human civilization is ready to spread from Cantha, naturally the first place they return to is Orr.
    • Whether the gods built Arah before humans returned to Orr or after, is a question I haven't fully figured out yet. Not sure it matters.
  • The issue is that humans arrived in Cantha at three separate times (northern Canthans, then Kurzicks and Luxons at separate times). So if the gods took humans to Cantha from Orr, then why would they do so in batches years/decades apart? And the Luxons have a myth about a homeland, not a mere reststop from another orld, being across the sea.

    On top of that, humans who arrived in Orr/Elona are confirmed to not have come from Cantha but "somewhere else". So there is 100% a third location involved, where Tyrians/Elonians came to independent of Cantha's development.

    (786 BE) Even in Tyria, we humans have forgotten where we came from...literally. All that is known of the origin of the Tyrian human race is that our species appeared more than 1,200 years ago on the northern continent. Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.

    [...]

    (205 BE) Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence. Perhaps, if the Canthans had seen fit to drive north and expand their empire, history would have played out very differently. But with the concerns and needs of an already sprawling realm, the emperors of Cantha chose to remain within their borders. And so the various Tyrian cultures developed, unhindered by—and for the most part, unaware of—their southern neighbors.

    [...]

    (221 AE) The Empire of the Dragon had been a unified power for centuries when the kingdoms of Tyria finally made contact. The first ships to arrive on the southern continent found a culture much more advanced than their own, and in a display of wisdom that likely prevented Tyria's first intercontinental war, chose to make peace as soon as possible.

    [...]

    Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    In short: Tyrian/Elonian humans developed independently and without contact or awareness from Cantha (and vice versa) for roughly 425 years after Tyrians/Elonians arrived on their shores. Wherever the Tyrian/Elonian humans came from, it wasn't Cantha, either directly or indirectly. Given that Canthans, Kurzicks, and Luxons arrived at different points in time as well, it would imply that Canthans and Tyrians hold a shared origin point inbetween that of the portal at Orr, and arrival on their respective continents.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    The issue is that humans arrived in Cantha at three separate times (northern Canthans, then Kurzicks and Luxons at separate times). So if the gods took humans to Cantha from Orr, then why would they do so in batches years/decades apart? And the Luxons have a myth about a homeland, not a mere reststop from another orld, being across the sea.

    On top of that, humans who arrived in Orr/Elona are confirmed to not have come from Cantha but "somewhere else". So there is 100% a third location involved, where Tyrians/Elonians came to independent of Cantha's development.

    (786 BE) Even in Tyria, we humans have forgotten where we came from...literally. All that is known of the origin of the Tyrian human race is that our species appeared more than 1,200 years ago on the northern continent. Humans settled Cantha even earlier, however, and appear to have done so on multiple occasions during what Canthans call the Late Pre-Imperial Era. Even less is known about the origin of the Luxon and Kurzick peoples, who arrived on the continent after the tribes that would become modern Canthans settled the northwest coast and Shing Jea Island. The humans of Cantha may have actually originated on Shing Jea, though this has never been proven.

    [...]

    (205 BE) Though the news would not arrive in the Empire of the Dragon for several decades after the fact, the year 305 by Canthan reckoning saw the arrival of humans on the continent of Tyria. When news of these primitive barbarians did eventually reach Cantha, it was considered of little consequence. Perhaps, if the Canthans had seen fit to drive north and expand their empire, history would have played out very differently. But with the concerns and needs of an already sprawling realm, the emperors of Cantha chose to remain within their borders. And so the various Tyrian cultures developed, unhindered by—and for the most part, unaware of—their southern neighbors.

    [...]

    (221 AE) The Empire of the Dragon had been a unified power for centuries when the kingdoms of Tyria finally made contact. The first ships to arrive on the southern continent found a culture much more advanced than their own, and in a display of wisdom that likely prevented Tyria's first intercontinental war, chose to make peace as soon as possible.

    [...]

    Luxon children still hear stories of their people's original home, a nameless place far across the open ocean and lost now to the land-bound faction, seemingly forever. Some historians believe that new discoveries point to a Luxon presence in the Crystal Desert more than a thousand years ago, but just as many believe this to be a misinterpretation of the evidence.

    https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/An_Empire_Divided

    In short: Tyrian/Elonian humans developed independently and without contact or awareness from Cantha (and vice versa) for roughly 425 years after Tyrians/Elonians arrived on their shores. Wherever the Tyrian/Elonian humans came from, it wasn't Cantha, either directly or indirectly. Given that Canthans, Kurzicks, and Luxons arrived at different points in time as well, it would imply that Canthans and Tyrians hold a shared origin point inbetween that of the portal at Orr, and arrival on their respective continents.

    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    Isn't the Claw of Jormag named as such because it was first encounted by the Kodan and it was they who give it the name/title of Claw of Jormag?

    In Kodan culture there is both a Voice and a Claw, the voice being their spiritual leader that gives guidance and messages from Koda to the Claw and the Claw being their physical leader and protector.. a warrior basically who protects the tribe and the Voice.

    Attributing those Kodan perceptions to Jormag it would make sense for the Kodan to label Jormag in the role of a Voice.. the big leader who whispers and speaks to it's victims.. and the Claws as basically it's protectors and warrior leaders.. Jormags variant pretty much of what a Kodan Claw does.

    Jormag and it's Claws don't have the same relationship as the Voice and Claw of the Kodan that much is clear and the Kodan obviously know this too.
    But back when they were first driven South by the rise of Jormag it's possible that they simplified their perceptions of Jormag and it's minions by projecting such labels onto the Dragon and it's lieutenants.
    Jormag possibly whispering to the Kodan at this time could have even inspired these namess too since Jormag would be essentially acting as a Voice and the Claws acting as well Claws.

    It's possible these names even go back to the last Dragon rising too and have been passed down over generations.
    They are one of the few races to have survived the last Dragon Rising by seeking refuge on the northenmost shores and have had little to possibly no interaction with the other races for a very long time, many of which are younger than them anyway and likely didn't know about the Kodan's existence until they were driven south by Jormag and it's Claws.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

    Me becoming the king of Tyria technically isn't out of the realm of possibilities either, doesn't mean that its going to happen.

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Stephen.6312Stephen.6312 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

    Me becoming the king of Tyria technically isn't out of the realm of possibilities either, doesn't mean that its going to happen.

    Lol. Back to the Maguuma with you!

    Want to delve into some theories about the lore and story of GW2? Check these posts out: The Search For Answers P1 and The Search For Answers P2.

  • @Stephen.6312 said:

    @The Greyhawk.9107 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

    Me becoming the king of Tyria technically isn't out of the realm of possibilities either, doesn't mean that its going to happen.

    Lol. Back to the Maguuma with you!

    Hate Is Fuel.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Stephen.6312 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Stephen.6312 said:
    You're assuming that the origin of Tyrian humans hasn't been (at least partially) resolved. LS4, "Chaos Theory", suggests that the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is linked to temporal and physical displacement from the Crystal Desert, quite possibly as a result of magical fallout from the Great Battle at the Gates of Heaven; the ferocious conflict between the "human" gods that saw Dwayna's pantheon cast some very arcane magic.

    In my opinion, the amnesia suffered by Tyrian humans searching for their origins is tied to The Exodus. Both events involve the wide-scale memory wipe of large swathes of humanity. That is to say, the spell that we refer to as The Exodus, possibly cast by Lyssa at Dwayna's behest, hid not only the persistent existence of mankind's gods on Tyria, but also the region of Tyria from which humans of the northern continent came.

    There's absolutely nothing in Season 4 that ever touches or hints to touch upon the origin of humanity.

    Nor is there really any solid suggestion of amnesia - the Orrian History Scroll talking about "Lyssa helped them forget the past" never 1) specifies what past it refers to, or 2) specifies who "them" is (humans? the other gods? both? a third party?).

    But nothing in Season 4, let alone in Chaos Theory, at all ever suggests an implied relation to humanity arriving on the world.

    It's certainly never openly stated. That doesn't mean that it is out of the realm of possibility. Of all the scenarios that make sense to my mind, this one is one of the most compelling.

    There is a vast difference between "not out of the realm of possibility" and "has been (partially) resolved". The difference is wider than the Atlantic Ocean.

    There's even a vast difference between "not out of the realm of possibility" and "it suggests". One larger than the Pacific Ocean.

    That difference is the same difference between implications of canon lore, and the fabrication of head canon / fan canon.

    Is what you said outside the realm of possibility? Definitely not.

    Is it suggested or partially resolved? Also definitely not.

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Isn't the Claw of Jormag named as such because it was first encounted by the Kodan and it was they who give it the name/title of Claw of Jormag?

    I don't think it's ever suggested who named the Claws, or first encountered them.

    That said, while the kodan call Drakkar the mouthpiece of Jormag, the Sons of Svanir during the idol ceremony events call it the voice of Jormag (note the lowercase). Which I find curious in relation to this thread.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Sajuuk Khar.1509Sajuuk Khar.1509 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just an FYI, at least one Kodan considers a similar possiblity in the newest release

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirits'_Refuge

    Kodan Villager (1): She fought bravely. Until her dying breath, she tried to protect us. We've never gone without a Voice.
    Kodan Villager (2): Others have managed. But has any kodan Voice had to contend with Elder Dragons?
    Kodan Villager (1): Well, during the great Dragonstorm of the last awakening, our Voices told the kodan to wait and hide.
    Kodan Villager (2): Maybe an Elder Dragon spoke to the Voices then. As Jormag tries to speak to us now.
    Kodan Villager (1): Then we would not be children of Koda; we would be in debt to dragons. You know better than that.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 27, 2020

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    I don't think it's ever suggested who named the Claws, or first encountered them.

    That said, while the kodan call Drakkar the mouthpiece of Jormag, the Sons of Svanir during the idol ceremony events call it the voice of Jormag (note the lowercase). Which I find curious in relation to this thread.

    I don't think it is mentioned specifically either.
    It is mentioned that the Kodan were around during the last Dragon awakening though and with Jormag awakening in the North and driving the Kodan south it's possible they were the first to have contact with Jormag during this cycle, potentially even prior to the events of Eye of the North in much a similar way that Svanir did.
    I don't think there is any confirmed information or statements on this though, I cannot find any myself anyway but Jormag's icebrood does contain both Norn and Kodan so it's definitely been corrupting both races for a long time.

    As far as the Norn go they too had contact with Jormag as far back as Gw1 however I do not know if the Dragons name was ever disclosed to them, Sons of Svanir usually refer to Jormag as just Dragon so in the early years of the cult they may not have even known it's real name as I don't think Svanir did either as I am pretty sure there was never any mention of the name Jormag in Gw1.

    I don't know if there is any information about when the Kodan and Norn first met each other either but I'd bet it was after Jormag's rise since it was Jormag who ultimately drove both of them South.
    (Kodan lore even claims a group of Kodan went south and never returned which they now believe to be the origins of the Norn race so I expect the two races really didn't interact or know of each other before Jormag awakening in this era forced them closer together)

    What I wonder is if this encounter took place before, during or after the Norn marched north to kill Jormag, or whether the Norn even knew Jormag by anything other than Dragon at that point.. again I can find no specific information on this.
    But it would make sense if during those events the two races met for the first time and the Kodan having been around during the last rising could have passed on knowledge of Jormag and it's minions to the norn who were possibly either marching to kill it or fleeing from the loss they suffered.
    Part of that information could have been Jormags name along with the Kodan's names for it's Icebrood and Claws of Jormag.

    Then again Jormag itself could have named its own minions and spred that information although I expect these names have changed over the many different cycles among the various races that have encountered them.
    Recorded lore after all only goes back so far and the dragons have awoken and slept many times before.

    Kralkatorriks branded minions were named after the Dragonbrand that cuts across Ascalon so I would assume that it was the Charr that originally named his minions since they were very likely the first to encounter them in this era.
    I expect this is a common occurance in this universe, much like in Gw1 and by extention Gw2 Humans continue to refer to Primordus minions as Destroyers because when we first encounted them in Gw1 it was the name Ogden and Vekk used to identify them leading to our Human characters asking what a Destroyer was and amusingly turing to Vekk and asking what he was as well since this was also our first time encountering an Asura.

  • ZDragon.3046ZDragon.3046 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Dont scare me with plot twist like this jfc seriously if this is true im gonna lose my mind 🤔

  • Sykper.6583Sykper.6583 Member ✭✭✭

    @Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:
    Just an FYI, at least one Kodan considers a similar possiblity in the newest release

    https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Spirits'_Refuge

    Kodan Villager (1): She fought bravely. Until her dying breath, she tried to protect us. We've never gone without a Voice.
    Kodan Villager (2): Others have managed. But has any kodan Voice had to contend with Elder Dragons?
    Kodan Villager (1): Well, during the great Dragonstorm of the last awakening, our Voices told the kodan to wait and hide.
    Kodan Villager (2): Maybe an Elder Dragon spoke to the Voices then. As Jormag tries to speak to us now.
    Kodan Villager (1): Then we would not be children of Koda; we would be in debt to dragons. You know better than that.

    That's an unsettling but intriguing notion to put in the game so blatantly.
    I still think Jormag is playing the long game, and the more I think on it, Jormag's playing a similar game to Zhaitan with manipulating emotions. He's probably more cunning, Zhaitan was relatively blunt given his rule over death, as in "Since all of your friends perished, why not join them?"

    Jormag's way more nuanced I think.