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SehferViega.8725

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The balance patch sets a limit to damage modifiers to 2.0 for one handed weapon skills and 1.82 for two handed weapon skills for burst skills - with only very few exceptions like channeled skills where at least a part of the cannel can easily be avoided and the channeling player is very vulnerable (to skills like PI for example). Skills that have an additional value to raw damage are meant to deal less damage.

PI procs on an interrupt and can be spammed and stacked. This adds a ton more of utility to the damage. On top of that it is only a trait. And damage inflicting traits are nerfed for all classes to promote active and versatile gameplay (spamming headshots and benefit from that is the opposite of the latter).

0.75 is even pretty high compared to other classes. For example chill of death (a major master like PI) is nerfed from 1.2 to 0.1 and so basically left with just being a boonstrip every 20 seconds at a specific threshold.

The OP could have answered all his questions by himself when he would have read the balance patch aims.

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@KrHome.1920 said:PI procs on an interrupt and can be spammed and stacked. This adds a ton more of utility to the damage. On top of that it is only a trait. And damage inflicting traits are nerfed for all classes to promote active and versatile gameplay (spamming headshots and benefit from that is the opposite of the latter).

PI need a skill to be interrupted: at least you can stack two (cause initiative cost and of course the necessary condition to interrupt an enemy skill).Spamming Headshot is not a good thing, every decent thief know that, but maybe you're not a thief player.PI is not passive: is an additional effect to an active skill/action (Chill of Death is instead passive: autocast a skill when you hit someone with less then 50% life).Kill entire trait line don't promote versatile gameplay.

0.75 is even pretty high compared to other classes. For example chill of death (a major master like PI) is nerfed from 1.2 to 0.1 and so basically left with just being a boonstrip every 20 seconds at a specific threshold.

0,75 means that PI will hit for circa 200-800 in WvW.. in pvp his damage will be lower: who the hell will spend 4 initiative to make 400 damage or less?Chill of Death is a boonremover trait that inflicts Chill and is also a passive trait, PI is only a pure damage trait.

Killing PI will force no staff Daredevil Thieves to play only Havoc Specialist that is a no sense passive mechanic to increase damage.

@"RedShark.9548" said:Keep in mind that stability is also going to be nerfed, you will have much more windows in which you can interrupt ppl now.

StabilityThe biggest point of feedback that we’ve seen on the WvW side of things is the concern about longer cooldowns on stability skills and the effect it will have on large scale engagements. Based on that feedback, we won’t be applying most of these changes in WvW for the initial update. Stability is still something that we want to keep an eye on, but we want to see how everything adjusts before making larger changes to these skills.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97626/balance-update-update-wvw/p1

So Stability is not going to be nerfed heavily.

"Having much window" is not a great advantage cause

  1. Interrupting an enemy always has a cost: initiative if you use Headshot, utilitis if you use Distracting Daggers or Reflexive Strike or Impact Strike.. or your Swipe. So have more windows doesn't necessarily mean more interrupt.
  2. Thief can easily rip/remove stability, so we can create ourself the "windows".
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@KrHome.1920 said:The balance patch sets a limit to damage modifiers to 2.0 for one handed weapon skills and 1.82 for two handed weapon skills for burst skills - with only very few exceptions like channeled skills where at least a part of the cannel can easily be avoided and the channeling player is very vulnerable (to skills like PI for example). Skills that have an additional value to raw damage are meant to deal less damage.

PI procs on an interrupt and can be spammed and stacked. This adds a ton more of utility to the damage. On top of that it is only a trait. And damage inflicting traits are nerfed for all classes to promote active and versatile gameplay (spamming headshots and benefit from that is the opposite of the latter).

0.75 is even pretty high compared to other classes. For example chill of death (a major master like PI) is nerfed from 1.2 to 0.1 and so basically left with just being a boonstrip every 20 seconds at a specific threshold.

The OP could have answered all his questions by himself when he would have read the balance patch aims.

0.75 is really low compared to other classes. Chill of Death still rips 3 boons, and applies chill. Theyre nerfing utility skills damage to have a more solid distinction. Power Block, which compared to PI also adds weakness, also increases the cooldown, will have 1.5 damage still.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:The balance patch sets a limit to damage modifiers to 2.0 for one handed weapon skills and 1.82 for two handed weapon skills for burst skills - with only very few exceptions like channeled skills where at least a part of the cannel can easily be avoided and the channeling player is very vulnerable (to skills like PI for example). Skills that have an additional value to raw damage are meant to deal less damage.

PI procs on an interrupt and can be spammed and stacked. This adds a ton more of utility to the damage. On top of that it is only a trait. And damage inflicting traits are nerfed for all classes to promote active and versatile gameplay (spamming headshots and benefit from that is the opposite of the latter).

0.75 is even pretty high compared to other classes. For example chill of death (a major master like PI) is nerfed from 1.2 to 0.1 and so basically left with just being a boonstrip every 20 seconds at a specific threshold.

The OP could have answered all his questions by himself when he would have read the balance patch aims.

0.75 is
really
low compared to other classes. Chill of Death still rips 3 boons, and applies chill. Theyre nerfing utility skills damage to have a more solid distinction. Power Block, which compared to PI also adds weakness, also increases the cooldown, will have 1.5 damage still.The bigger picture is worth to take a look here:

Headshot will see an increased value because stability is excessively nerfed. D/P thieves will be back at 2k14 levels in terms of just interrupt everything important on their target. There have to be some noticeable nerfs to a trait that further improves that skill. Btw. PI does now even reliably proc on shortbow4 (rework to 1s daze on impact) on up to 5 targets. Mesmer is a different story. It's one of the professions that are hit the most overall with the patch.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:The balance patch sets a limit to damage modifiers to 2.0 for one handed weapon skills and 1.82 for two handed weapon skills for burst skills - with only very few exceptions like channeled skills where at least a part of the cannel can easily be avoided and the channeling player is very vulnerable (to skills like PI for example). Skills that have an additional value to raw damage are meant to deal less damage.

PI procs on an interrupt and can be spammed and stacked. This adds a ton more of utility to the damage. On top of that it is only a trait. And damage inflicting traits are nerfed for all classes to promote active and versatile gameplay (spamming headshots and benefit from that is the opposite of the latter).

0.75 is even pretty high compared to other classes. For example chill of death (a major master like PI) is nerfed from 1.2 to 0.1 and so basically left with just being a boonstrip every 20 seconds at a specific threshold.

The OP could have answered all his questions by himself when he would have read the balance patch aims.

0.75 is
really
low compared to other classes. Chill of Death still rips 3 boons, and applies chill. Theyre nerfing utility skills damage to have a more solid distinction. Power Block, which compared to PI also adds weakness, also increases the cooldown, will have 1.5 damage still.The bigger picture is worth to take a look here:

Headshot will see an increased value because stability is excessively nerfed. D/P thieves will be back at 2k14 levels in terms of just interrupt everything important on their target. There have to be some noticeable nerfs to a trait that further improves that skill. Btw. PI does now even reliably proc on shortbow4 (rework to 1s daze on impact) on up to 5 targets. Mesmer is a different story. It's one of the professions that are hit the most overall with the patch.

D/P thieves in 2014 did not use Headshot unless they fucked up or wanted to interrupt a heal skill. And even the latter usually was the former, since you should have steal for that, or be able to kill them before they can get it off. So yeah, Thieves basically didnt use headshot, because 4 initiative for an interrupt isnt worth. And no, there dont have to be any nerfs. In fact, there has to be a small buff (or basically a retroactive fix of an accidental overnerf). Fact is, the trait is terrible, and D/P thieves straight up stopped using it months ago. If it were left unnerfed and given the retroactive fix to 2.0 instead of 1.5, maybe it would be viable on D/P Thief again. With the planned nerf? The trait becomes useless. One of the worst traits you can pick in the entire game. Never the correct choice.

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@Kodama.6453 said:Takedown Round from the engineer goes down from 2.0 to 0.5. It is also a pure damage trait that has 10 seconds ICD, unlike PI which has no CD at all. Damage traits are getting nerfed across the board, adapt to it.

If you don't want Takedown Round anymore I'll take it, I might like the cd more than the usual Initiative cost, plus I can tag multiple targets with it and it might be a little more reliable than trying to land the timed interrupt.

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Based on the numbers the balance team gave, PI is definitely getting overnerfed.

The problem is that the numbers aren't right.

In PvP modes, Mug does very slightly more damage than PI with Marauder stats. Mug does 1,187 while PI does 1,183. You can take a look if you don't believe me.

Yet, the Patch notes say that Mug is getting reduced from 1.5 to 0.75, and PI is getting reduced from 2.0 to 0.75. These numbers don't make sense because they imply that PI currently does 33% more damage than Mug... When Mug actually does very slightly more damage than PI.

One or both of these coefficients is incorrect, either Mug's 1.5 or PI's 2.0. I'm not sure which. ANet is basing their numbers off of what the Wiki says and the Wiki isn't always correct.

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@"Kodama.6453" said:Takedown Round from the engineer goes down from 2.0 to 0.5. It is also a pure damage trait that has 10 seconds ICD, unlike PI which has no CD at all. Damage traits are getting nerfed across the board, adapt to it.

Difference is, Takedown Round is just free damage. You dont need to invest any resources in it. It also ironically does more damage (it can crit) and has more effects (it is an explosive) than PI. Takedown Round will still be a fine trait if the other traits are likewise relatively low power. 0.75 scaling PI however is useless. Its one of the by far worst traits in the game, and even D/P thief will always choose Havoc Training over it. So the only "adaptation" to that change is for every single build to Drop PI, and for the trait to become a troll pick that either needs to be buffed up majorly, or completely reworked to be playable.

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@KrHome.1920 said:

Headshot will see an increased value because stability is excessively nerfed. D/P thieves will be back at 2k14 levels in terms of just interrupt everything important on their target. There have to be some noticeable nerfs to a trait that further improves that skill. Btw. PI does now even reliably proc on shortbow4 (rework to 1s daze on impact) on up to 5 targets.

People, and you first, seem to not understand the difference between Headshot or Choking Gas (Shortbow 4) and interrupt a skill: you still talking about PI like at EVERY Headshot it will correspond a Pulmonary Impact, so spamming HS is like spamming PI.This is not true and every decent player know that.

Headshot is the best defensive skill against some skill: Ranger's Rapid Fire, DH's True Shot (if they don't have aegis), PP Thief's Unload, Necro's Ghastly Claws, War's Rush, Deadeye's Shadow Meld, Thieves' Combo Black Powder+Heartseeker, ecc..This is active gameplay that require ability and timing. Casual spam of Headshot is self-defeating.

Let's see what happens when you spam 4 Headshot and you get 4 skill interrupted (never happend to me in 3 years of D/P thief gameplay, but let suppose it):-Headshot of his own critically hits around 500-700.. so 700x4=2'800 damage.-PI: against a full marauder thief hits for 1'700-1'900 (with my 3114 power build), but as I posted, it usually hits for 1'300-1'500 in most cases, considering the meta builds. We are talking about: 1'500x4=6'000 (and is not an immediate damage) or 1'900x4=7'600. Against a boonbeast: 500x4=2'000..So you have spent all you initiative, to achiev 10'400 damage in the best case against a full marauder Thief.. less damage then if you use two Shadow Shot or a single Swipe+Backstab.Now you have to consider

  1. that every thief player know that Headshot is a counterplay for some skills, not something to spam blindly,
  2. that there is a boon called Stability
  3. that you can hit your target with Headshot while he is not using any skill (gaining nothing).

So what are we talking about?

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imo they should remove pi as a trait entirely since it will never be invested in, keep the low coefficient but add it into headshot to make it feel more useful to use. Put an ICD on the interrupt if you want, or make it into a split skill where as if you do interrupt -> second part is a use to do damage with

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@appelflap.8310 said:They dont want to nerf sigil of draining in wvw/pve so they nerfing PI in all game modes. lmao

But for real, PI has to get nerfed with the new deadly aim trait (pistol and harpoon skills can pierce up to 5 enemies) coming next patch otherwise PI would be too good with sigil of draining, absorption,... Imagine headshotting and interrupting 3-5 ppl dealing 2k dmg from PI on every1 and proccing sigil of draining 3-5 times for just 1 skill with a 4 initiative cost lol. The dmg potential it could have (on interrupt) if it isn't getting nerfed would be too high for a defensive skill so yes PI deserves that nerf, no need to save it.

Are you even sure headshot will interrupt all the people it hits in the pierce? Or will it simply interrupt the first person it hits then the damage pierces?

The fact is we dont know since the patch isnt out yet to even test this.

What you are saying is speculation. If what you are saying isnt true do you feel the nerf justified?

With the nerf, I agree with bluri(sind) that they might as well remove it as a trait.

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@appelflap.8310 said:They dont want to nerf sigil of draining in wvw/pve so they nerfing PI in all game modes. lmao

But for real, PI has to get nerfed with the new deadly aim trait (pistol and harpoon skills can pierce up to 5 enemies) coming next patch otherwise PI would be too good with sigil of draining, absorption,... Imagine headshotting and interrupting 3-5 ppl dealing 2k dmg from PI on every1 and proccing sigil of draining (dmg+healing) 3-5 times with just 1 skill that has a 4 initiative cost lol. The dmg potential it could/would have if it isn't getting nerfed would be too high for a defensive skill so yes PI deserves that nerf, no need to save it.

It doesnt. Ignoring the magical christmasland that is enemies lining up perfectly for a single headshot to hit all 5 while they are all also using an interruptable skill at the same time and there is no projectile destruction or block about (which basically rules out 1v1s, small scale skirmishes, teamfights and zerg vs zerg situations), there already was a way to proc both of those on multiple targets. Chokebow. Guess what? Its not a very good build, and its already much better than your hypothetical headshot build could ever be. So no, it wouldnt be too high at all. It doesnt deserve a nerf, it deserves a buff. I mean for fucks sake, even roaming D/P Thieves have just dropped PI (and Sigil of Draining) entirely because its not worth it.

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@appelflap.8310 said:

@appelflap.8310 said:They dont want to nerf sigil of draining in wvw/pve so they nerfing PI in all game modes. lmao

But for real, PI has to get nerfed with the new deadly aim trait (pistol and harpoon skills can pierce up to 5 enemies) coming next patch otherwise PI would be too good with sigil of draining, absorption,... Imagine headshotting and interrupting 3-5 ppl dealing 2k dmg from PI on every1 and proccing sigil of draining 3-5 times for just 1 skill with a 4 initiative cost lol. The dmg potential it could have (on interrupt) if it isn't getting nerfed would be too high for a defensive skill so yes PI deserves that nerf, no need to save it.

Are you even sure headshot will interrupt all the people it hits in the pierce? Or will it simply interrupt the first person it hits then the damage pierces?

The fact is we dont know since the patch isnt out yet to even test this.

What you are saying is speculation. If what you are saying isnt true do you feel the nerf justified?

With the nerf, I agree with bluri(sind) that they might as well remove it as a trait.

It literally saysDeadly Aim: This new trait causes the pistol and harpoon gun skills to pierce, affecting up to five enemies but reducing the damage inflicted by those skills by 5%.

we will see tomorrow

The daze wont apply to all of them tho lmao

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While yes a single PI via headshot was underwhelming but 1-2k damage was fantastic supplemental damage with a daze steal > pistol whip > Heashot spam (as they attempt to heal). This is during a +1 on node with a teammate and it was great at extending lock down with decent damage. But yeah, it won't ever be used as is now.

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@appelflap.8310 said:They dont want to nerf sigil of draining in wvw/pve so they nerfing PI in all game modes. lmao

But for real, PI has to get nerfed with the new deadly aim trait (pistol and harpoon skills can pierce up to 5 enemies) coming next patch otherwise PI would be too good with sigil of draining, absorption,... Imagine headshotting and interrupting 3-5 ppl dealing 2k dmg from PI on every1 and proccing sigil of draining (dmg+healing) 3-5 times with just 1 skill that has a 4 initiative cost lol. The dmg potential it could/would have if it isn't getting nerfed would be too high for a defensive skill so yes PI deserves that nerf, no need to save it.

It doesnt. Ignoring the magical christmasland that is enemies lining up perfectly for a single headshot to hit all 5 while they are all also using an interruptable skill at the same time and there is no projectile destruction or block about (which basically rules out 1v1s, small scale skirmishes, teamfights
and
zerg vs zerg situations), there already was a way to proc both of those on multiple targets. Chokebow. Guess what? Its not a very good build, and its already much better than your hypothetical headshot build could ever be. So no, it wouldnt be too high at all. It doesnt deserve a nerf, it deserves a buff. I mean for kitten sake, even roaming D/P Thieves have just dropped PI (and Sigil of Draining) entirely because its not worth it.

Chokebow used to be alright in WvW, but I haven't played it since the trap reworks admittedly (trapper rune stealth plus bow immob was what made it work, with P/D offset). It definitely wasn't top tier, but it was a fun lockdown build for a time.

That said, it seems a bit OTT to nerf PI so heavily in the same patch that choking gas finally has been brought in line, unless they are planning on removing that type of gameplay altogether. I'd assume that what people have said earlier in the thread about PI being a placeholder until it's reworked has some truth in it, based on that.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@appelflap.8310 said:They dont want to nerf sigil of draining in wvw/pve so they nerfing PI in all game modes. lmao

But for real, PI has to get nerfed with the new deadly aim trait (pistol and harpoon skills can pierce up to 5 enemies) coming next patch otherwise PI would be too good with sigil of draining, absorption,... Imagine headshotting and interrupting 3-5 ppl dealing 2k dmg from PI on every1 and proccing sigil of draining (dmg+healing) 3-5 times with just 1 skill that has a 4 initiative cost lol. The dmg potential it could/would have if it isn't getting nerfed would be too high for a defensive skill so yes PI deserves that nerf, no need to save it.

It doesnt. Ignoring the magical christmasland that is enemies lining up perfectly for a single headshot to hit all 5 while they are all also using an interruptable skill at the same time and there is no projectile destruction or block about (which basically rules out 1v1s, small scale skirmishes, teamfights
and
zerg vs zerg situations), there already was a way to proc both of those on multiple targets. Chokebow. Guess what? Its not a very good build, and its already much better than your hypothetical headshot build could ever be. So no, it wouldnt be too high at all. It doesnt deserve a nerf, it deserves a buff. I mean for kitten sake, even roaming D/P Thieves have just dropped PI (and Sigil of Draining) entirely because its not worth it.

Chokebow used to be alright in WvW, but I haven't played it since the trap reworks admittedly (trapper rune stealth plus bow immob was what made it work, with P/D offset). It definitely wasn't top tier, but it was a fun lockdown build for a time.

That said, it seems a bit OTT to nerf PI so heavily in the same patch that choking gas finally has been brought in line, unless they are planning on removing that type of gameplay altogether. I'd assume that what people have said earlier in the thread about PI being a placeholder until it's reworked has some truth in it, based on that.

I have swapped to using Pressure strike with SB. This is very effective with the new Daze. You can likely generate more damage off a head shot in a grievers build with pressure strike then when taking PI.

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@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:That said, it seems a bit OTT to nerf PI so heavily in the same patch that choking gas finally has been brought in line, unless they are planning on removing that type of gameplay altogether. I'd assume that what people have said earlier in the thread about PI being a placeholder until it's reworked has some truth in it, based on that.

@"bluri.2653" said:imo they should remove pi as a trait entirely since it will never be invested in, keep the low coefficient but add it into headshot to make it feel more useful to use. Put an ICD on the interrupt if you want, or make it into a split skill where as if you do interrupt -> second part is a use to do damage with

Well, I don't know if their plan is to replace Impacting Disruption as trait.Distracting Daggers (that I think nobody use), for example, without Impacting Disruption (and then PI) has no sense to exist.Same for Fist Flurry "second part" Palm Strike.Reflexive Strike too, considering that now it makes no damage by itself, is really weak without PI.Remove PI leads to a review to Daredevil Physical skills.

To be honest, I really like PI as game mechanic: it something that suits to D/P-S/P Daredevil, something that require timing and then some skill. But now it's really useless.IMHO, the best thing would be revert the last patch change.Or makes PI hit like Sigil of Draining: a fix damage that is unaffected by target armor. But it should deal at least around 1000-1100 damage.

New PI damage, always with my 3114 power Daredevil Build:

https://imgur.com/a/vyWZobc

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