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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, the PvP game with PvE lobby was indeed the original intention for this game. It didn't last through beta however - and i mean GW1 beta. Frankly, most of the players never cared about PvP in the first place. And the PvE/WvW didn't matter only to those that weren't playing it.

I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the "vision" of the game of Anet/Devs, their vision was PvP was the serious bit, PvE/WvW the casual bit. The combat / class design and balance reflected that for the first couple of years until they decided to change the game direction with HoT / Raids.

Raids caused about as much problems...

So like I said and contrary to what you claimed, raids did cause balance problems.

And all of that still doesn't change the fact, that it's the core game design, not raids, that cause the current balance problems.

Wrong, the core game design for combat/classes worked fine for what it was designed for - PvP, it only became an issue when they wanted to change the game into something else (more serious PvE than they initially planned) that the core game design did not fit that, that is down to them completely changing the direction of the game.

There are a ton of things you could possibly blame raids for, but balance is not one of those.

Wrong. The game was never intended to have "serious" PvE, so it was not designed for that in mind, the core game was fine for what was originally intended. Raids screwed balance up because the game was never supposed to have them and they had to wreck their own combat system to fit in BS for raids like "healers", make condie damage useful in PvE, have "tanks", etc all things that went against what the game was designed around.

And what did they get, nothing other than a heavily declining game which is still considered a joke for PvE raiding when you can go play FF14 or something that does that sort of thing much better.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, the PvP game with PvE lobby was indeed the original intention for this game. It didn't last through beta however - and i mean
GW1
beta. Frankly, most of the players never cared about PvP in the first place. And the PvE/WvW didn't matter only to those that weren't playing it.

I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the "vision" of the game of Anet/Devs, their vision was PvP was the serious bit, PvE/WvW the casual bit. The combat / class design and balance reflected that for the first couple of years until they decided to change the game direction with HoT / Raids.

Raids caused about as much problems...

So like I said and contrary to what you claimed, raids did cause balance problems.

And all of that still doesn't change the fact, that it's the core game design, not raids, that cause the current balance problems.

Wrong, the core game design for combat/classes worked fine for what it was designed for - PvP, it only became an issue when they wanted to change the game into something else (more serious PvE than they initially planned) that the core game design did not fit that, that is down to them completely changing the direction of the game.

There are a ton of things you could possibly blame raids for, but balance is not one of those.

Wrong. The game was never intended to have "serious" PvE, so it was not designed for that in mind, the core game was fine for what was originally intended. Raids screwed balance up because the game was never supposed to have them and they had to wreck their own combat system to fit in BS for raids like "healers", make condie damage useful in PvE, have "tanks", etc all things that went against what the game was designed around.

And what did they get, nothing other than a heavily declining game which is still considered a joke for PvE raiding when you can go play FF14 or something that does that sort of thing much better.

The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/archive/balance/PvX-Balance-Iteration-Wrongdoing

“On the various forums one can find dozens of threads, often pertaining to – and addressing and re-addressing – the same issues, over and over. This is a problem, because it leads to a community perception of paralysis, which causes:

  1. A perception of neglect
  2. Accumulation of negative PR
  3. A perception of broken promises”

“Balance and build diversity:Overall, build diversity in GW2 has been severely curtailed by the fact that entire lines of Utility skills and Traits have been underwhelming – yet balance has focused almost exclusively on the rare few “meta” builds and skills. This often comes to the detriment of multiple skills and Utilities. Arenanet’s insistence on “letting the meta settle” has resulted in patches coming every few months that iterate on balance – yet the changes within reflect an increasing disconnect of balance intention and balance result.”

“Community Frustration and perceptionThe lack of iteration has bred community frustration and resentment towards Arenanet who feel that the pace of development is glacial.”

“balance should be in such a way that more builds than those listed above can have a place in a team composition without those builds shutting out others to the point of exclusion.”

“For PVE, the so-called “Damage, Support, Control” alternative trinity so trumpeted as the innovation over the “Tank, Healer, DPS” trinity has dissipated in favour of “DPS, DPS, DPS”."

“Slow, extremely hard hitting attacks have negated the need for Support – there is little need to support allies with healing if taking a hit means almost certain death. DPS with just enough Support through Boons has become the one true god and PvE encounters have devolved into a “stack mobs, cleave to death” DPS race over thoughtful, deliberate challenges that tax a group’s ability to co-ordinate and problem solve.”

“Finally, there also exists the issue of balancing errors, and bugs affecting balance being unaddressed for significant periods.”

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@Swagger.1459 said:The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

The devs here recognized the berserker meta was unhealthy for the game, hence the changes brought with HoT

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@Swagger.1459 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

Tell it to the multitudes of PvE zombies who scream in every MMO that does things a little different, where are my raids, where are heals/tanks/DPS, why doesn't this game have addons, where is the DPS meter, where are the hard/easy modes, where is the LFG tool, etc...

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:The original designs were the problem. Unless of course players like mmo games where the majority run zerker/damage builds and see who can spam kill the fastest.

The class designs and their combat mechanics were fine for a game that had super casual PvE. If people wanted to speed run dungeons then they picked the wrong game, but that is a problem with many PvE players in MMOs fullstop, too many think every MMO should be WoW and then cry about it when it isn't.

There are a ton more examples of class designs than wow.

Tell it to the multitudes of PvE zombies who scream in every MMO that does things a little different, where are my raids, where are heals/tanks/DPS, why doesn't this game have addons, where are the hard/easy modes, where is the LFG tool, etc...

There is a lot different out there than wow.

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@Sylosi.6503 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Yes, the PvP game with PvE lobby was indeed the original intention for this game. It didn't last through beta however - and i mean
GW1
beta. Frankly, most of the players never cared about PvP in the first place. And the PvE/WvW didn't matter only to those that weren't playing it.

I'm not talking about the players, I'm talking about the "vision" of the game of Anet/Devs, their vision was PvP was the serious bit, PvE/WvW the casual bit. The combat / class design and balance reflected that for the first couple of years until they decided to change the game direction with HoT / Raids.So? All it means is that the vision caused them to create a game that they could not properly balance. It's not raids' fault, it's the fault of that original design.

Raids caused about as much problems...

So like I said and contrary to what you claimed, raids did cause balance problems.No, not raids specifically, but
everything
. Anytime they balanced the game for one part, it caused problems for everyone else. And that's a consequence of game design.So, yeah, balancing something around raids was a problem. So were changes made for SPvP, or WvW, or, earlier, dungeons, or...get the picture? Raids were just one more point of unbalance added to the game that already had a lot of those.

And all of that still doesn't change the fact, that it's the core game design, not raids, that cause the current balance problems.

Wrong, the core game design for combat/classes worked fine for what it was designed for - PvPToo bad it wasn't a PvP game and a majority of the players did not play PvP at all.

Notice, you are basically agreeing with me here - if the core game design for combat/classes worked fine for PvP subsystem, but not for the huge majority of the game, then i'd call that a major design failure.

, it only became an issue when they wanted to change the game into something else (more serious PvE than they initially planned) that the core game design did not fit that, that is down to them completely changing the direction of the game.The game was never PvP-centered in the first place. There was no change here - PvE was always way more important to a vast majority of players. And most of the other parts of the game acknowledged that - it was only the combat system that was out of place.

Besides, no, the system didn't work in PvP either. It worked only on the top end of the PvP ladder (and even there it never worked as good as you think you remember), but started unraveling the lower you got. It was one of the reasons why SPvP didn't get any new players - the system was extremely unfriendly for them.

Basically, it was a system that was designed to work only in the hands of hardcore veterans (both PvE and PvP) but completely kittened over more casual players. Unfortunately, the game cannot survive on hardcore players alone.

There are a ton of things you could possibly blame raids for, but balance is not one of those.

Wrong. The game was never intended to have "serious" PvE, so it was not designed for that in mind, the core game was fine for what was originally intended.It wasn't fine. It was just that those problems were not important
to you
. PvP players (the veteran ones anyway, see above) might have considered it a minor thing, but you can trust me, anyone in PvE that found their ranger nerfed over and over and over again due to SPvP, or heard that their necro will never get buffs because "they are too good in PvP already" very much cared about those issues.

Raids screwed balance up because the game was never supposed to have them and they had to wreck their own combat system to fit in BS for raids like "healers", make condie damage useful in PvE, have "tanks", etc all things that went against what the game was designed around.It wasn't raids that shifted the balance more towards PvE side. It was the total failure of SPvP mode that did it. Raids were just one of the
consequences
of that.

And what did they get, nothing other than a heavily declining game which is still considered a joke for PvE raiding when you can go play FF14 or something that does that sort of thing much better.So, according to you, they should have kept shafting vast majority of the game's population in order to keep the few PvP players satisfied. And then the game would have been fine.Except PvE balance would still have been atrocious. And SPvP would still be dead.

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My thoughts/reason raids have low pop is because players aren't willing to learn.

Before even getting into a group (for first timers or ppl joining trainings) you should learn your class build from snowcrow, practice dps on the golem till you can get close to bench mark and also listen in discord.

The amount of players I come across in raids that have their own build with your own rotation being out dps'd by the druid is just cringe... its meant to be the hardest content in game and you want to accept the challenge then atleast prepare your self and not the 'oh I'm just gonna play what I want cos I can and face tank all mechanics' attitude. This is one of the issues I see alot. If you dont know mechanics and have joined training group JOIN discord and listen. Very frustrating when you get stuck on one simple mechanic that one person does not do and either downs or dies.

Raids are fun and challenging and definitely a learning curve jump from your average pve open world. BE PREPARED FOR IT.

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@"DoRi Silvia.4159" said:Raids are fun and challengingBut only for a small minority of players - because, ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply do not find them fun. Telling them "just BE PREPARED" won't change that - not when quite often it's that very preparation part that they dislike most.

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For me it's just a matter of time. Specifically, time to train rotation, and time to learn the encounter.

I've yet to run my rotations with boons on the training golem, but I'm just not reaching the sort of numbers I should be. Sure, my gear isn't 100% done (missing higher-end infusions), but it's more than good enough for raiding, but I fall quite short of benchmarks. I'm sure with more sessions in the training arena can get me there, but I find it exceedingly boring and feel stung by the opportunity cost of all the other cool things I could be doing rather than beating up a golem. The problem with practicing in the other parts of the game world have to do with not having optimal comps, enemies dying too fast, etc.

But if I get right down to it, everything I said above about "time to train" are just excuses. After all, I can just put in a bit more effort on the special forces golem and I'm sure I'd build the muscle memory to get it right. The real time problem I have is finding a block of time where I post my own LFG, enter a raid, and fail for hours (and somehow find 9 people to share those hours of failure with me). If I were still a college student and could burn a huge chunk of prime gaming hours on weekends to learn raids at my own pace with a like minded group, this wouldn't be a problem.

I suspect that a lot of the other competent 305 mastery folks that I run into for fractals and dungeons are in a similar position.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"DoRi Silvia.4159" said:Raids are fun and challengingBut only for a small minority of players - because, ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply
do not
find them fun. Telling them "just BE PREPARED" won't change that - not when quite often it's that very preparation part that they dislike most.

So, if people find preparing for raid is the issue to play raids then should anet lower the difficulty to suit players with lesser skill to clear with lesser rewards? (no leggy armors, less loots etc) because that looks like it won't be happening.ANET has been asked many times to have a difficulty scaling system with lesser rewards but it has not happened and the way things are going it wont be changing either (due to anet trying to train up player skill level through strikes instead).Tell me then how can new players (to raiding) do the current raids and training without preparing their rotations and builds while learning to do mechanics? because DPS is very important on most bosses in raids

By all means I am all in for increasing raiding population because it means more interest for the devs to make more content but i am against raids becoming something so easy that you do not need to prepare for it at all - say like grothmar/bjora(1) strike difficulty for example - skinner being the exception

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@DoRi Silvia.4159 said:

@DoRi Silvia.4159 said:Raids are fun and challengingBut only for a small minority of players - because, ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply
do not
find them fun. Telling them "just BE PREPARED" won't change that - not when quite often it's that very preparation part that they dislike most.

So, if people find preparing for raid is the issue to play raids then should anet lower the difficulty to suit players with lesser skill to clear with lesser rewards? (no leggy armors, less loots etc) because that looks like it won't be happening.If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

Tell me then how can new players (to raiding) do the current raids and training without preparing their rotations and builds while learning to do mechanics? because DPS is very important on most bosses in raidsThey can't, obviously. Which is one of the main reasons why raids are not very popular.

Strikes won't help there. They just ramp up difficulty, but don't actually teach anything that could not have been already learned elsewhere (and specifically teach nothing about builds, rotations etc). Nor have they a chance of causing players to suddenly start liking things they didn't like before.

By all means I am all in for increasing raiding population because it means more interest for the devs to make more content but i am against raids becoming something so easy that you do not need to prepare for it at all - say like grothmar/bjora(1) strike difficulty for example - skinner being the exception

There's no magic solution here. If the raids are to become more popular, they'd need to change into a type of content more players would like - there's no way around it. If they are to stay the way they're now, however, they won't become more popular, and they wont be developed anymore.Whichever way is chosen, it's going to disappoint some people. Possibly even those same people, but for different reasons in each case. One thing i think we can safely expect is for strikes to not be of any help in that regard

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I can't speak for others but I can speak for why I've never completed a raid. Even as a player that has a good grasp of all other game modes, effective dodging, meta builds, and skillful play - if you don't have KP or lack experience you won't get accepted into a group - you have to run with beginners who still struggle with using dodge or run inefficient wacky builds. The biggest reason though is 10 man instanced combat really sucks. It's near impossible to put together a group of people that fits your schedule in a group of 10.

I won't be doing raids regardless of how many strike missions or incentives they put in. The only way I'd even try it is if they reduced the number of people required to 5 OR made a hotjoin/quick join button to automatically put you into a raid group, like WoW.

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@thepenmonster.3621 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:ultimately, the main reason raids have low pop is because most players simply
do not
find them fun.

Apparently we just don't know any better and it's the ultimate form of pleasure.

Yeah, it's always strange to hear people say "just create your own group", or "if you would just put in effort".@Astralporing.1957 hit the nail on the head. Raiding is just not fun to some. And games are there to have fun.

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There is a population of players that just don't have the ability to commit a chunk of time to get into Raids. A lot of people (myself included) have full time jobs, kids, school, etc that just make it almost impossible to be able to sit down and play uninterrupted for any period of time. I can log on for several hours a day, but actual time spent playing may only be 30 min to 1 hour because of distractions. Maybe difficulty scaling would change that like others have suggested...maybe if players could experience the raid content in a condensed version with similar mechanics and fractal level rewards it would make the transition easier. I think personally if i could experience raid bosses in 5 man content (fractals) I would be much more willing to try and get into the Raids for the better rewards and achievements as it would be a less time consuming endeavor than trying to learn everything from scratch.

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@SamuraiJack.7156 said:There is a population of players that just don't have the ability to commit a chunk of time to get into Raids. A lot of people (myself included) have full time jobs, kids, school, etc that just make it almost impossible to be able to sit down and play uninterrupted for any period of time. I can log on for several hours a day, but actual time spent playing may only be 30 min to 1 hour because of distractions. Maybe difficulty scaling would change that like others have suggested...maybe if players could experience the raid content in a condensed version with similar mechanics and fractal level rewards it would make the transition easier. I think personally if i could experience raid bosses in 5 man content (fractals) I would be much more willing to try and get into the Raids for the better rewards and achievements as it would be a less time consuming endeavor than trying to learn everything from scratch.

Frankly, at this point in game history, we can't really expect any sort of meaningful transition into raid content. The players that it might have affected are already raiding. The players that are not raiding are those that do not like raids as they are now.

Easy mode would not really directly expand population of the current raids by the way of transition. There would be a trickle of players moving from them to the normal mode, but it would not affect the normal mode population in significant way. What easy mode might do, however, would be to expand the population of raids as a whole (so, easy + normal mode) to the point where Anet might feel assigning some dev time to them is not a waste. And that might indeed positively impact normal raid population, or at least slow/stop the decay of the current raid community.

Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

That's assuming the barrier for Raid popularity is difficulty

Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

That's assuming the new difficulty mode will attract enough players to not only justify its own existence, as it will take resources to make, but also this increase will lead to an overall increase in Raid activity/popularity.

Let's assume that there are 1000 players that Raid and a Raid has a "development cost" of 100. It's not worth making Raid content because there are too many resources needed, per player. Now they add another difficulty mode which attracts some more players into Raids, but increases the development cost to 120. In order for this extra mode to be worth it in the first place, the number of players it brings in must be (in the example above) higher than 200, otherwise the end result of resources/player will be the same as without it. And if it attracts let's say 100 players, then it will be a net reduction and overall make the situation worse, not better.

It's easy to assume that adding a new difficulty mode will bring in new players. The question is how many will it bring and if this investment will be worth it. Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.

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Someone said, that there are 4 types of (MMO) players: Achievers, Explorers, Socializers and Killers.

Achievers want to beat the game. They want levels, gear, gold, points.Explorers want to explore, see everything that can be seen.Socializers want to interact with other player. Socialize, chat.Killers are into competitive mode. PvP.

I don't totaly buy this classification, but I do agree with the fact that different people play the same game for different reasons. And that they are all legit players.

Raid goes under Achievers. Raid is not 100% of Achievers. Raid is a part of a part of a game. So if you are not into Achievers, nothing will change that. Even if you are Achiever, it still doesn't mean you are into raids.

You can't "shit" not-raiders to like raid more. Explorers will do it maybe once(to explore it), Socializers will want to chat in the middle of boss fight and Killers will just want to join boss monster and kill other players.

The only way to get more raiders is to increase overall population so that some would be Achievers and also Raiders.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:If they want more players to raid, then yes, they will have to either lower the difficulty of the current version, or create a separate, lower difficulty one.

That's assuming the barrier for Raid popularity is difficultyBecause it is. Or, rather, all the consequences that difficulty brings with it.Many players are simply not interested in putting a lot of time into keeping their builds up to date, practicing their rotations (and redoing all that everytime Anet messes with the meta), having to train boss mechanics many times over, having to find a group of people that would also do that (and potentially having to train them to be up to standarts). Having to replace/train new players in case one of their static members decides to leave. Even, if they are personally capable of doing exactly that.And that's for statics. With pugs we have the added "fun" of having to deal with players that are definitely
not
up to standarts, and, obviously, worse group coherency and organization.Most players just do not find it fun at all, and don't consider raids to be worth having to deal with all that.

Basically, with more than one difficulty mode, it would be okay to spend resources on unpopular mode, because most of those resources would also be used by the more popular one (and thus wouldn't be wasted). It would also be okay to do more difficult raid fights, because Anet would no longer need to feel constrained by having to adjust the difficulty of raid wings so it would satisfy the whole raid community (which obviously doesn't work all that well, as the past history has shown).

That's assuming the new difficulty mode will attract enough players to not only justify its own existence, as it will take resources to make, but also this increase will lead to an overall increase in Raid activity/popularity.

Let's assume that there are 1000 players that Raid and a Raid has a "development cost" of 100. It's not worth making Raid content because there are too many resources needed, per player. Now they add another difficulty mode which attracts some more players into Raids, but increases the development cost to 120. In order for this extra mode to be worth it in the first place, the number of players it brings in must be (in the example above) higher than 200, otherwise the end result of resources/player will be the same as without it. And if it attracts let's say 100 players, then it will be a net reduction and overall make the situation worse, not better.

It's easy to assume that adding a new difficulty mode will bring in new players. The question is how many will it bring and if this investment will be worth it.Yes, that is a question. If it will, that's obviously good for raids. If it won't, then probably nothing will help them anyway.Although at this point i think there's no point anymore. It was something that should have been done long ago, but by now it is way too late to change anything. There's simply nothing to salvage anymore.

Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.I don't think they will show anything like that. Anet is pushing way too hard for strikes to become "bridge to raids", but at the same time they are pushing them at players the least likely to be interested in midcore content (but most likely to get angry for having to deal with 10-man "raidlike" content in their open world LS metaachieves).

Besides, like i said, i am afraid it is way too late. The players that might have been potentially interested in "easy mode" for the most part do not want to even hear anything about raids anymore - they either no longer care, or are too angry about the issue. And the community that wanted raids in the first place also mostly decayed beyond the point of recovery, and won't be coming back even if Anet decided to assign some resources to raid development again.

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@"Astralporing.1957" said:I don't think they will show anything like that. Anet is pushing way too hard for strikes to become "bridge to raids", but at the same time they are pushing them at players the least likely to be interested in midcore content (but most likely to get angry for having to deal with 10-man "raidlike" content in their open world LS metaachieves).

They release instanced 10-man content that is considerably easier than most Raids. I find it really unlikely that someone that doesn't run the Shiverpeak Pass or Fraenir of Jormag Strikes would be interested in an easier version of Vale Guardian. Which is why I say that Strikes can show at least the upper limit of players interested in instanced content.

Besides, like i said, i am afraid it is way too late. The players that might have been potentially interested in "easy mode" for the most part do not want to even hear anything about raids anymore - they either no longer care, or are too angry about the issue. And the community that wanted raids in the first place also mostly decayed beyond the point of recovery, and won't be coming back even if Anet decided to assign some resources to raid development again.

That's why they released Strike Missions and not an easy version for Raids, they probably know it's too late. At the very least, if Strike Missions fail to get more players into Raids, they ARE new content that could possibly stand on its own, an easier version for the Raids would have a much harder time to stand on its own. So Strike Missions was the logical choice over easier Raids.

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I don't see why there's all this tension around the raids, the raid development team is small compared to the other teams.

Also, stop saying that raids are a waste of time, nothing is a waste of time.All assets, FX, game design elements, boss mechanics, skeleton, models and others are made to be reusable in living history and fractal or open world.It's a waste of time if they are not reused.I give you an example Drakkar takes a lot of mechanics from Tequattle or samarog.

After the raid doesn't work because :

  1. already 10 people have grouped together it's long.

  2. Raids are at one end of open world where you just have to spam 1 and there is no difficulty.

  3. Personally I think they should rework the balance, and a little bit the fighting system to reduce the difference between a casu player and hardcore on the same build.And so do like a lot of mmo, guided implicitly the players used or not this skill.Example a CC makes 0 of damage thus no utility of the used for a casu player, on the other hand when there is a bar of CC this one should light up. (in open world)

Finally increased the difficulties of the open world and living history, to implicitly force players to master their character a little more than spamm 1 for 20 minutes once every 2 or 3 months.If this is resolved the general level will be higher and the level between casu and hard core will be lower.

  1. As in many games (FF14, WoW, ...), the strike or raid missions are directly included in the basic story so that the whole player base goes through it and there is an easy mode and a hard mode. (these should have been done from the beginning.)

  2. After that arenanet the only thing they can do to attract people to raid is to put in even more attractive rewards, but they can't do more.

    The rest is just personal investment is what you accept to spend several hours trying a boss, learning mechanics, and for that die in a loop with your 9 other companions.

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@"maddoctor.2738" said:Regardless of their shortcomings, Strike Missions show this population that will be interested in a more easy version of challenging group content. It remains for someone at Arenanet to do the math and figure out if it's worth it.I know this is the topic of another thread, but the way they're going about this is one that'll create false positives. I've done strike missions. Because I needed to to get the new emote. I sure hope they don't consider my exactly 20 strike mission successes as an indication that I'm interested in them, nor all the other people for whom this was a "done with it forever now I got the reward" situation.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

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