Trade offs: Anets definiton and execution (an almost unbiased analysis try)

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:Ok, I will repeat myself, again.

I am just saying that Anets double trade off on Daredevil from their own PoV (not mine) is inconsistentThey didnt give DRD any trade off but a better evasion skill on their choice and +1 evade on top.Their didnt give up normal dodge, its still normal dodge but with additional effects(and different animation) on it, they are still locked in the direction they evade, it cost them normal 50 endurance and travel the same distance (unless special dodge for it). THAT is not a trade off, otherwise you would be calling warriors reckless impact a new elite worth level mechanic because it does additional unblockable damage and gives him might (just lacking new animation, LMAO). They overbuffed normal evade and gave an extra evade.Trade off that DRD recieved was -600 range, -cooldown reduction, + unblockable into addition to super evades,+1 evade and ALL MINOR TRAITS IT GETS.Yes, minor traits are very important, some classes get super minors to help with definition of what they want it to be. Some do not because they think they achieved their goal by giving it super strong mechanic. In my view at least. For an example - they want daredevil to be a brawler, they give him insane buffs and merge major traits they have to pick into minors to boost their offensive capabilities and defensive capabilities to achieve its goal on top of alrdy existing better evades and shorter range steal to be melee-centred spec. Spellbreaker get his minors to help him with his theme to remove boons (on cc) and dagger that also remove boons (and utilities blablabla) and burst reset on succcessful F2. Mirage or chrono got minor grandmaster filler traits - either unnecessary or something that should have been baseline (MC movespeed) because they alrdy have strong mechanics - super evade and split. Again, thats how I think it was done ? No idea.And I didnt read your whole post, only this crp about daredevil btw :)And as described their trade off agenda seems not to care for fair or logical balance in the first placeThats true. They removed every single phantasm trait to make mesmer shatter-centric entirely. Introduced phantasm spec and take away the fundamental SELF-SHATTER that allows mesmer to breathe. Phenomenal trade off. I would love to see thieves reaction if they had to steal from 100 range literally hugging your enemy and trying to search his pockets :joy:I guess Anet thinks they can rebalance with normal balance moves later if an elite get overnerfd by trade offThey think but they cant. I understand that well and you think I'm not. kek. Just like you think I dont understand their PoV of trade-offs. I understand how they give trade offs but why some classes get immesureable more than what they lose and get away with it and how its fair, thats another question, they dont understand themselves, I'm sure of it.A bunch of text you said below is a an eternal struggle of all mesmers in lenght of 8 years. Thats alow I would consider a trade off.Look : To bring in line chrono, core is nerfed, I give him some credit here, they nerfed chrono a bit too at that time when they had sane workers.Then what happens CP is too strong, phantasms are out of hand ! Phantasms, all of them get hit by a truck. Few times even. CP saved for PVE users. To make chrono shine you had to keep perma alacrity, bunker could maintain highest alacrity uptime and thus was way more effective than power build that briefely got it from random shatters. Its out of hand and CS with BD is too strong - BD got nurfs. CS left alone, surprisingly (got cd increases a bit?)Mirage - 1s evade is too long. Vigor trait that every class has 5/10 now exclusively for mirage is 3/10, thank you anet, you did help core and chrono to gain some vigor, I guess? /smirror allows to reflect and counterattack while evading at the same time - destroyed for all specs core/chrono/mirage,thanks I guess? /sBlurred frenzy was left alone for ~5 years but now its broken - almost 50% evasion frames removed, still hit 8 times to get destroyed in retal, thank you, core and chrono appreciate this change ! /sStaff recent nerfs, scepter nerfs. What actually happened to other builds that got hurt in the process? Well, power builds didnt make it , except for current PU core that can shot you because auto-deathsaveprocs are gone :)

Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @Leonidrex.5649 .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

[bravan.3876]

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is replaced by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

[storm.3120]

@bravan.3876 said:Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.I dont think mirage should get 3 evades, neither daredevil imo. Why even 3 evades when he alrdy have better evades? Idk.Also yes, thier dash dodge is different.Mirage dodge is stronger of course. The change it ever needed is stop evading in hard cc which means you can evade in daze and may be immob too?Mesmer shatters were nerfed and confusion application heavily reduced and its duration. When all shatters did 1 confusion they removed it from all shatters and packed into 1 and then nerfed it, of course, so then shatters became irrelevant and IH became bread and butter.w/e waiting for the clownpatch to hit

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"Odik.4587" said:(ironically everyone were happy with mesmer nerfs but then wasnt happy when thier core got touched)

So true.Demanding a ton of core mesmer nerfs and when it's their time, they're "nerf elite not core". Hypocrisy at its finest as usual in this forums.

As for DD, DD range on steal is a tradeoff with the unblockable. The elite spec itself hasn't got any tradeoff whatsoever.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:(ironically everyone were happy with mesmer nerfs but then wasnt happy when thier core got touched)

So true.Demanding a ton of core mesmer nerfs and when it's their time, they're "nerf elite not core". Hypocrisy at its finest as usual in this forums.

As for DD, DD range on steal is a tradeoff with the unblockable. The elite spec itself hasn't got any tradeoff whatsoever.

I am not sure i get you both right but i never was a fan of "don't nerf core, only nerf elites" opinion. You need to nerf the stuff that actually is op, no matter if it is in core traitlines or elite traitlines. Builds using elite lines are just builds as every other build without elite, 2 of the used traitlines are core, the whole elite mechanic is build up on core classes, respecting at least the one class defining fundamental basic mechanic (like initiative on Thief, only exception is Soulbeast). All traitlines have correlations and different kind of synergies to each other. Saying only nerf elites to balance overperforming meta builds using one elite and 2 core lines is narrowed. (For example i think that Chaosline is actually a way bigger balance problem than any other traitline including elites on Mesmer and that since game release. Still broken after so many nerfs, simply because per se bad designed, way too passive way to mistake friendly facetanky and insane low skill ceiling even on the not totally passive traits).For example the problem was not, that they nerfed the BD-Inpetitude synergy in the core traitline, that was super spammy and low skill ceiling and broken asf. It needed some nerfs, it was overshining the IH clone dmg back then. The problem is they OVERnerfed ALL shatter condi dmg with the time. While they never just touched condi clones normal autoattacks in the first place and then looked from there. Nerfing the passive condi ambushes on Mirage (or better rework them to be less about dmg and more about adding effects the player can actively and tactical work with and need another timing than just pure defensive dodging to be times well and played at optimum lvl, just as they did ít well for power dmg weapons).

The mistake of Anet was not to nerf core. The mistakes was simply to nerf the wrong things or nerfed the right things but way too hard and that no matter what traitline.

[ArlAlt.1630]

I’d like to politely invite @Cal Cohen.2358 and @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 to give us some insight into the decision making behind this change, as is one of the more puzzling ones.What is your vision for Mirage?What should it do in your own vision?What should be its strength and what should be its weakness?

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:(ironically everyone were happy with mesmer nerfs but then wasnt happy when thier core got touched)

So true.Demanding a ton of core mesmer nerfs and when it's their time, they're "nerf elite not core". Hypocrisy at its finest as usual in this forums.

As for DD, DD range on steal is a tradeoff with the unblockable. The elite spec itself hasn't got any tradeoff whatsoever.

I am not sure i get you both right but i never was a fan of "don't nerf core, only nerf elites" opinion. You need to nerf the stuff that actually is op, no matter if it is in core traitlines or elite traitlines. Builds using elite lines are just builds as every other build without elite, 2 of the used traitlines are core, the whole elite mechanic is build up on core classes, respecting at least the one class defining fundamental basic mechanic (like initiative on Thief, only exception is Soulbeast). All traitlines have correlations and different kind of synergies to each other. Saying only nerf elites to balance overperforming meta builds using one elite and 2 core lines is narrowed. (For example i think that Chaosline is actually a way bigger balance problem than any other traitline including elites on Mesmer and that since game release. Still broken after so many nerfs, simply because per se bad designed, way too passive way to mistake friendly facetanky and insane low skill ceiling even on the not totally passive traits).For example the problem was not, that they nerfed the BD-Inpetitude synergy in the core traitline, that was super spammy and low skill ceiling and broken asf. It needed some nerfs, it was overshining the IH clone dmg back then. The problem is they OVERnerfed ALL shatter condi dmg with the time. While they never just touched condi clones normal autoattacks in the first place and then looked from there. Nerfing the passive condi ambushes on Mirage (or better rework them to be less about dmg and more about adding effects the player can actively and tactical work with and need another timing than just pure defensive dodging to be times well and played at optimum lvl, just as they did ít well for power dmg weapons).

The mistake of Anet was not to nerf core. The mistakes was simply to nerf the wrong things or nerfed the right things but way too hard and that no matter what traitline.

Not talking about you Bravan, you always stood true to your ideas.Talking about certain members of "the knowledgeable community" who advocate both in favor of nerfing core mesmer and not nerfing core (on their profession).

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.Wtf you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

Can't find the old Vash video tutorial about it...Edit: crap there are removed .. : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Vashury-Buka-Videos

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Odik.4587 said:(ironically everyone were happy with mesmer nerfs but then wasnt happy when thier core got touched)

So true.Demanding a ton of core mesmer nerfs and when it's their time, they're "nerf elite not core". Hypocrisy at its finest as usual in this forums.

As for DD, DD range on steal is a tradeoff with the unblockable. The elite spec itself hasn't got any tradeoff whatsoever.

I am not sure i get you both right but i never was a fan of "don't nerf core, only nerf elites" opinion. You need to nerf the stuff that actually is op, no matter if it is in core traitlines or elite traitlines. Builds using elite lines are just builds as every other build without elite, 2 of the used traitlines are core, the whole elite mechanic is build up on core classes, respecting at least the one class defining fundamental basic mechanic (like initiative on Thief, only exception is Soulbeast). All traitlines have correlations and different kind of synergies to each other. Saying only nerf elites to balance overperforming meta builds using one elite and 2 core lines is narrowed. (For example i think that Chaosline is actually a way bigger balance problem than any other traitline including elites on Mesmer and that since game release. Still broken after so many nerfs, simply because per se bad designed, way too passive way to mistake friendly facetanky and insane low skill ceiling even on the not totally passive traits).For example the problem was not, that they nerfed the BD-Inpetitude synergy in the core traitline, that was super spammy and low skill ceiling and broken asf. It needed some nerfs, it was overshining the IH clone dmg back then. The problem is they OVERnerfed ALL shatter condi dmg with the time. While they never just touched condi clones normal autoattacks in the first place and then looked from there. Nerfing the passive condi ambushes on Mirage (or better rework them to be less about dmg and more about adding effects the player can actively and tactical work with and need another timing than just pure defensive dodging to be times well and played at optimum lvl, just as they did ít well for power dmg weapons).

The mistake of Anet was not to nerf core. The mistakes was simply to nerf the wrong things or nerfed the right things but way too hard and that no matter what traitline.

Not talking about you Bravan, you always stood true to your ideas.Talking about certain members of "the knowledgeable community" who advocate both in favor of nerfing core mesmer and not nerfing core (on their profession).

I see, nvm then^^

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

Let's PM then because it's your post but it worry me than guys who came here didn't had the full discussion....

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

Pretty sure the community named it Shatterplay, to differentiate.

P.S. Shatterplay can be power or condi. It’s just the skill prioritization and the way you play it that make it stand out as its own playstyle.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

Let's PM then because it's your post but it worry me than guys who came here didn't had the full discussion....

Nah, you are right. I opened the thread but i is not "mine", everyone can post what he wants, i don't want to (and can't) forbit and if you think it can be useful for others to read our "not agree to disagree" (xD) than feel free to post here (we also could switch to a more Mesmer focused thread and link the thread here as compromise maybe, that way this threads stays focused on the origin topic and ppl who are interested in more Mesmer focused stuff can use the link?)

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

P.S. Shatterplay can be power or condi. It’s just the skill prioritization and the way you play it that make it stand out as its own playstyle.

Yes true but condishatter was also different from powershatter and less relying on IP because the dmg was more spread out to all shatters (with f2 being the main condi dmg skill but in the end you applied condis with all shatters not only the f1/f2) and the way condi shatter traits were designed they always rewarded more clone shatter 1:1 more (condistacks per clone) while power shatter has decreased power dmg per clone the more clones are out on f1 and power dmg is only linked to f1 (and way weaker f2), while f3 and f4 were pure utility. Also back then vulnerability didn't higher condi dmg if i remember right, so comboing with using specific shatters in a row to prepare a burst with vulnstacks was not needed for condishatter.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

Let's PM then because it's your post but it worry me than guys who came here didn't had the full discussion....

Nah, you are right. I opened the thread but i is not "mine", everyone can post what he wants, i don't want to (and can't) forbit and if you think it can be useful for others to read our "not agree to disagree" (xD) than feel free to post here (we also could switch to a more Mesmer focused thread and link the thread here as compromise maybe, that way this threads stays focused on the origin topic and ppl who are interested in more Mesmer focused stuff can use the link?)

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Ok your argument is, that Daredevil still has normal dodges not a completely new dodge like Mirage? Where you see the difference? And i mean just mechanical difference not what is better or worse or op or up. That Daredevil dodges are better than normal dodges is not relevant for the categorisation if they are a trade off or not, only relevant is

if Daredevil lost normal dodges for mechanical different Daredevil dodges or if the dodges are just the same as normal dodges in a mechanical meaning.

Because i don't know, when playing them (Daredevil dodges) they all feel very different from normal dodges, including the part that a Dash or Bound also cannot rly jumpdodge (dash has higher range itself sure but that is not the point). I would say the Daredevil dodges are not normal dodges in a mechanical point of view (as long as you don't run without a major grandmaster trait on Daredevil traitline). But in case you are right, then delete inconsistency no. 5 from the list. Still the Dardevil trade off with the swipe range is hypocrite and bad made (more clunky but also more broken spec).You can dodge jump with any of DRD evades. Went to legacy and dodge jumped on that tower with each dodge on it... How you cant ? Not like this dodge-jump is intended thing but w/e. Its pretty much normal evades but overloaded with additional effects -> unremovable buffs on each that boost something and additional effect. Mirage evade is unique as it allows you to use skills in it but you arent making any distance with it. Well, technically, its overbuffed dodge skill, so its up to you to think whatever it is

You are sure that adding jump to the dodge increases the length of the Daredevil dodges itself? I mean Mirage can jump and dodge at same time too but it doesn't have the effect you would do a jumpdodge for (longer length of the dodge). If you want to jump up onto something while dodging you can do that and need to jump in addition of the dodge but as far as i would say the length (the forward travel distance) of the Daredevil dodge stays the same during that. But i am not sure here.

Still looking at the trait description:

"Your dodge ability is

replaced

by a long-range dash that removes inhibiting conditions and grants swiftness and damage reduction. Removing conditions in this way temporarily reduces endurance gain." Means normal dodge gets REPLACED by a DASH. It is a mechanical replacement i would say.

Btw would you think Mirage should have 3 dodges like Daredevil? Because when i say Mirage is unfair treatened compared to Daredevil than i sure do not mean that Mirage should have 3 dodges too. For the inherent costs of higher opportunity costs on dodges and harder dodgemanagement it makes sense that Mirage doesn't have more dodges than every other class. Also comparing the dodges from DD and Mirage, than the Mirage dodge is clearly stronger over all than any Daredevil dodge. Unfair it gets when Mirage gets overnerfed on the resource it is based on (like Daredevil is based on dodges). The one dodge change is clearly unfair compared to Daredevil and a total overnerf, leading to more passivity, lower skill ceiling etc (i said it often enough) for the whole Mirage spec.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:About chrono, like I wrote on mesmer forum, they can leave IP removed on chrono but if they do this, they have to double clones HP.(While also end the condi damage from clones to fix the balance issue it create in every mesmer spec.)Mean it will provide differents types of gameplay than core while having clone ressources not totally gut so that the spec can be played.Btw good analysis.

No they cannot leave IP. It is fundamental for shatterplaystyle no matter what Mesmer spec. Shattermesmer is build up on doing combos with instant shatters. That is where a lot of skill ceiling comes from. Everyone can spam clone generating weapon and utiltiy skills and press a shatter. Fast paced combo playstyle is what makes Shattermes hard to play. No higher hp pool on clones for even less stuff a Mesmer player needs to care for will compensate for the loss in skill ceiling. You try to create an old phantasm playstyle just with clones instead. Phantasm playstyle got removed for good reasons, for the same reasons it is good that neither minion master Necro nor old turret Engi is viable/ available anymore.

Anyway ty for reading! :+1:

Read my answer to @"Leonidrex.5649" .What I mean is that clone positionning matter before shatter.Basically on old shatter vanilla you will see that the opponent will wait that the target come between the clones before shatter.Mean chrono has the possibility thanks to trait who give superspeed to illusion to be a ranged shatter whereas core would be a melee shatter play.About skill it's the same spamming shatter from range than in melee getting free proc from IP,Moreover if chrono has better effects while comboing shatter like the first give slow, the second does moee damage on slow.Mean it can provide different gameplay from core and it can be more tactical.That's why IP isn't an issue if they balance clone HP and shatter to continue on their orientation.

I did read your answer to Leo before replying to you myself^^ If you don't see a difference between a range shatter clone spam style and a melee shatter style needs to combo specific skills (with and without cast time) in terms of skill ceiling i don't know... I mean obviously Chrono is meant for PvE only by Anet and a "stay at range and spam some clone generating weapon- and utilityskills and than just shatter watching clones running to the target with superspeed" is for certain a pretty chill PvE spec xDIt loses so much skill ceiling in terms of comboing different shatters in specific order with specific micro second timing in an overall very short time interval, in terms of clone placement and movement etc. that i am wondering that a Mesmer main cannot see it.

No problem, if you don't get it, it's probably because you don't play shatter mes during vanilla.

I will try to explain it in few world : it's more difficult to build a mindful combo than to clic on 3 buttons.

Now in details :

Current core shatter play can be resumed as : stealth and/or blink + GS1 + F1. With sometimes F3 in the cycle.The mirage equivalent add ambush and more window to cast GS1 thanks to mirage cloak and that's it. (and more CC but it's not realistic to reactively rupt on a 1 sec CC animation.)

Whereas back in time, basically look at old osicat vids for example, you had the bad mesmer who will just spam clones and spam shatter and the good one who will use shatter when he and the opponent are at the right position towards illusions. It was particulary visible with staff as weapon to shatter burst. And guess what ? the good one always win vs the bad one.Concrete example :

• You need to F3 rupt a melee, you will move the fight so that the opponent move near clones.
• You want to land a full F1, you will attract your opponent between 3 clones before shattering.
• You would land a long F3 chain, you will pop clone at different position before shattering.

All of this is only possible with illusion who don't get one shoted with random skill and who move fast enough to counter the mobility powercreep everyone got during exensions.

In top of that if you add an optimal situation where you have a setup before doing the best burst you can, basically set lock or slow on opponent (like add F2 in the setup chain.), you can end up with a good tactical play.

Well the conclusion is that playing without IP or clone/shatter spamming isn't a fatality if they :1) Compensate by increasing illusions life.2) Improving combo setup reward.

IP mean you don't care about illusions position, as at least it will proc the effect on you.

IP doesn't substitute good clone placement, that was literally one point i mention what adds skill ceiling to power shatter (superspeed on clones does way more in terms of replacing the need for good clone positioning). Also in core days no pure shatter oriented Powermes build was running without IP trait as far as i know. But lets agree to disagree here because i don't want this thread to become a Mesmer thread.

IP disable much clone management as you can proc usefull effect (F3,F4) at any time with no prerequite. We go from a key positionnig to a I shatter from mysefl and a clone then what come after is bonus. It's not possible to do what I'm talking about positionning because there is too much aoe and mobility buff since when It was first used. Old shatter had to do good positionning with or without IP. Now you can't do good clone positioning because the life duration of an illusion is too low. Which was not the case back in time.kitten you want to stop the discussion whereas I argue about a suggestion who is not a tunnelvisionned gameplay we have since HoT on core/chrono.

I think you mixing up oneshot playstyle with Powershatter what needs to actually outplay opponents and bait defensive skills before being able to hit a telegraphed combo and doesn't just repeat the gs burst combo out of longer stealth with barely any counterplay and with no interactions. That shatters are instant through IP is basic requirement to combo with shatters and combine them. Maybe some other Mesmer mains can explain better or maybe you just would believe them more than me^^ (whatever there was a reason no pure shatter based power build was ever running without IP trait during core, just that i know from your way of playing and what your strengths and weaknesses as a player are, why you prefer a slower paced playstyle on condi/hybrid or even the old phantasm playstyle over the fast paced Powershatter playstyle). Anyway if you like to discuss that further we can go pms because as said, this is not a Mesmer balance thread and i would prefer it doesn't become one.

As you say yourself in core also shatter with ip needed clone positioning, and you still do need it. That it got harder by more/higher random aoe spam is true but that will be solved by the dmg nerf patch.

I don't want to stop the discusssion at all i only want to replace it to a place it fits better, because this thread should not become a Mesmer balance thread. It is classwide about trade off agenda.

P.S. Shatterplay can be power or condi. It’s just the skill prioritization and the way you play it that make it stand out as its own playstyle.

Yes true but condishatter was also different from powershatter and less relying on IP because the dmg was more spread out to all shatters (with f2 being the main condi dmg skill but in the end you applied condis with all shatters not only the f1/f2) and the way condi shatter traits were designed they always rewarded more clone shatter 1:1 more (condistacks per clone) while power shatter has decreased power dmg per clone the more clones are out on f1 and power dmg is only linked to f1 (and way weaker f2), while f3 and f4 were pure utility. Also back then vulnerability didn't higher condi dmg if i remember right, so comboing with using specific shatters in a row to prepare a burst with vulnstacks was not needed for condishatter.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164309/#Comment_1164309

[bravan.3876]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:I’d like to politely invite @ Cal and @ Ben to give us some insight into the decision making behind this change, as is one of the more puzzling ones.What is your vision for Mirage?What should it do in your own vision?What should be its strength and what should be its weakness?

I think your ping to Cal failed here but not sure (not that i think pinging them will help anything anyway lol).I never rly expected a reaction from Anet to this thread but ofc it would be appreciated considering how confusing the trade off topic is for everyone.

Even my definition of trade off à la Anet is just a logical deduction based on the analysis of Anets behavior and what i found as explanations from them written in some forum post. I tried to find the best fitting definiton to Anets balance changes leading to the least logical inconsistencies. It is a pro Anet analysis try, i rly tried to find their PoV (even tho it still sounds very critical from my part), the point is: no matter how you define trade off, you always find an insane amount of inconsistencies (often even more than with the definition i used here) in terms of what Anet did and is planning to do.

I don't know if Anet just ignores all the concerns because they don't care or just think everything was said against the trade off agenda is wrong and for that doesn't deserve any attention or reaction from their side.

But taking the Mirage change as example, because it is the most obvious one (no matter if you call it a trade off or normal balance move) when you look at it:Even the Mesmer/ Mirage haters only are happy with that change because they hope it will just delete Mirage from competitive modes. Means even they see it as overnerf themself. They do not agree to that change because they think it makes Mirage more skillful and enables more skillful builds to be played instead the overperforming, passive Condistyle or because makes the condistyle itself more skilled (because in fact it doesn't make any Mirage build more skillful, quite the opposite, as already explained several times it hurts the more skilled and active power builds way more, without even adressing the passive playstyle Condimirage has. It also makes Condimirage ifself even less active and more dodgespammy on cd so even more braindead, so the whole change contradicts the goal of getting a Mirage meta build that is skillful and less passive and less noobfriendly to play). They just hope for a deletion of the elite just as happend to Chrono.Ppl are fine with Mesmers having no elites (what is obviously unfair by itself but even more when you see, that Mesmers elite meta builds are not more problematic, noobfriendly and op than meta builds from other classes. So how about we delete all Thief or Warriors or Guards or Ele etc elites too? Would make the world better too or not?). And that even despite the fact that there are very high skill ceiling builds for Chrono and Mirage with a healthy balance lvl which just got destroyed as a spin-off but no Mesmer hater cares (why care for builds that kills you when played very well but you don't have enough skill for to play yourself?), even tho it got explained several times that if you want a class to be less noobfriendly and op you better do not kill the skillful builds of the class/ spec as a spin-off for the sake of nerfing some op ones. They just want to get Mesmer specs deleted without even having enough skill themself to even play at least the most passive and easy condispam Mirage without a noobcarryline like Chaos. It is hypocrisies at max lvl from the playerbase and has nothing to do with unbiased options and healthy balance suggestions. That should ring the warning bells at Anet, at least that one...

Or Anet doesn't react and do not give any further explanations because they simply have no good explanation and know they did nonsense but cannot step back/ backtrack from it for some pride reasons or something like that. And me and others are only some irrelevant little annoying buzzing flies you cannot catch with a fly flap for whatever reasons, so you just try to ignore them.

We will never know it seems.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@bravan.3876It failed because CMC is not ping-able.I didn’t expect a response either. Was merely illustrating how selective they are with what they respond to.If I had to guess, I would’ve said there is not a balance Dev left, that has any understanding of how the class works, what makes it tick, what makes it OP, what makes it UP.

[bravan.3876]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:@bravan.3876It failed because CMC is not ping-able.I didn’t expect a response either. Was merely illustrating how selective they are with what they respond to.If I had to guess, I would’ve said there is not a balance Dev left, that has any understanding of how the class works, what makes it tick, what makes it OP, what makes it UP.

Yeah indeed sometimes feels like it. I like the overall balance patch philosophy (they now just need to make some outliners less tanky fast) but the trade off agenda is a big mess overall and that no matter how i tried to look at it and what definitions i used. And for some classes it feels like the devs in charge of these classes got fired with the lay off wave last year or even bit before...On the other side cmc is Ele player and still we get such a nonsense and unneeded nerf to Obsidian... no clue.

[shadowpass.4236]

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/98694/better-tradeoffs-for-elite-specs