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NC Soft Q4 earnings report. GW2 25% decline over Q3


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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gehenna.3625" said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

Exactly my point, they've been focusing on the Open World PVE ALREADY, there are claims in this thread that they are not and that they should start focusing on it, which makes no sense. And that the game is suffering because it's spread too thin. It's NOT spread too thin, it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.

It is easy to blame one type of content as the reason for the suffering (of the game and players), but I do not think this is the real reason behind the scene.

When the lay-offs happened last year, I remember someone saying that the most people that were laid-off were not working on GW2, but on unannounced side-projects and now (at that time) the whole company will focus on GW2. But from the amount of content that was delivered until now, it does not look this way.

Of course Anet struggled a lot in 2019 and was (which is understandably) self-absorbed because of the lay-offs (and also people leaving the studio after that) and the following restructuring (which could also be called "groundwork") and this is probably a major reason, why they did not deliver more and better content, yet. On the other hand, there are again rumours and signs, that Anet is already (or still) working on side-projects.

Adding to that are misconceptions (that are sometimes typical for Anet) like the templates. Where it seems it was delivered unfinished and no one at Anet asked themself "Is what we deliver fun to use and helpful?" and Anet also was too greedy in their monetization.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @"Blaeys.3102" above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

They need to focus on their core differentiators - open world, story and WvW. Anything that doesn't feed into those game modes needs to be put on hold indefinitely - including sPvP, raids, strike missions, etc. Focus all of those resources in the same area and make it as good as it can possibly be. Stop trying to compete for raiders from WoW or pvpers from LoL and make the parts of the game that offer something unique better and more fun.

I wonder why you didn't post the same thing to them. Oh right because you agree with the "raids are evil" narrative.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):

  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

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@"Gehenna.3625" said:Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

You mean they made an error claiming that the reason for the revenue drop was because the company was spread too thin trying to cater to raiders and pvpers and not only open world players? I'm not the one insisting on that you are responding to the wrong person. Again.

Edit:You can also stop ignoring my response to you:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164577/#Comment_1164577

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @Blaeys.3102 above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.Well let me ask you why you insist on something that has been demonstrated to be a logic error?

You mean they made an error claiming that the reason for the revenue drop was because the company was too spread too thin trying to cater to raiders and pvpers and not only open world players? I'm not the one insisting on that you are responding to the wrong person. Again.The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.
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@"Gehenna.3625" said:The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.

You are talking about my comments, I'm talking about how you are dodging the other comments when they suit your narrative. I find it curious that you believe we are both wrong, yet you failed to answer that to the other side of the argument.

Also, I'm not dodging, I already provided an answer to you:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/1164577/#Comment_1164577Which you keep ignoring.

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

True, and that will have to remain to be seen. So far the pure focus on only casual content has not panned out, but I will agree that there are far more severe issues at stake: most notably lack of content overall (aka expansions), a disappointing reveal and overall well performing strong competition.

All I'm saying is: there is some posters who are absolutely sure that this game will thrive when all the resources get poured into open world casual content, when there is no strong numbers to support this assumption. It might very well be true, but it's not a given.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gehenna.3625" said:The thing is that you're both wrong. So pointing out that his conclusions are incorrect doesn't absolve you from doing the same. The other guy being wrong, doesn't make you right in other words. And I'm talking to you about your comments, so stop dodging that by pointing at the other guy.

You are talking about my comments, I'm talking about how you are dodging the other comments when they suit your narrative. I find it curious that you believe we are both wrong, yet you failed to answer that to the other side of the argument.

Also, I'm not dodging, I already provided an answer to you:
Which you keep ignoring.You are dodging the moment you refer to other people rather than yourself. His commentary is irrelevant to you confusing correllation and causation.The comment you refer to I've read and contains the same logic errors that you keep repeating.

It simply is impossible to attribute the population drop SOLELY to the focus on pve content without more data that actually supports that exclusivity. The data is just not sufficient but you keep saying it is. Saying that doesn't make it true. The drop CAN be attributed to other things just as easily and this is the problem in your reasoning.

You see, you said this:

@maddoctor.2738 said:it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.It's not a black or white thing. I also don't think that creating raids has anything to do with it but both sides of the arguments make false assumptions and just because one argument is more wrong, doesn't make the other argument right somehow.

So where it's perfectly fair to say that the creation of raids is not the problem or certainly not the entire problem, it's not fair to say that the open world focus can only be the issue.

True, and that will have to remain to be seen. So far the pure focus on only casual content has not panned out, but I will agree that there are far more severe issues at stake: most notably lack of content overall (aka expansions), a disappointing reveal and overall well performing strong competition.

All I'm saying is: there is some posters who are absolutely sure that this game will thrive when all the resources get poured into open world casual content, when there is no strong numbers to support this assumption. It might very well be true, but it's not a given.Well and I agree with you on that completely.
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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption> @Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

anyone who considers LW casual should take a look at other mmos, it is roughly on par with normal end game contentand the big difference is, that doing the same content in other games will give some CHARACTER PROGRESSIONi just spend over 5 hrs doing the latest story in STO, it was pretty hard, but at least i got a cool new cruiser for itand if they had made it easier, i would had done it on ALL my characters toovery few was complaining over dungeons, hardcores farmed them, and the casuals didnt carethen came fractals..same dealbut when raiding arrived, we rightfully yelled out..that was THE THIRD END GAME SYSTEM they spend resources onand now we are at number four...see a pattern here?they have made a few easy hearts here and there, but they are ALWAYS hidden behind end game contenti have never seen so good a game a with such a bad leadership, they never seemed to have any idea what they were going forand considering the manpower they have, we should have seen WAY more content, they are clearly still working on "other projects"

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@Gehenna.3625 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

Oh I absolutely agree that there are many factors involved, I posted some too, lack of expansions, the build template fiasco, uninteresting gem store items and so on. A revenue drop can never be attributed to the content type released alone, that's my stance and I will agree/promote it whenever I can. I can see how it might've been a contradiction, the "only" part was regarding content type released, didn't mean it as the Open World focus being the sole reason for the drop. Can't edit that "only" now as it would cause all other threads based on it make no sense. But I think I clarified it enough!

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@battledrone.8315 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption> @Cyninja.2954 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:You are right though that the focus of the game has been open world PvE and that's for very good reasons. I reckon it's the most used content by the player base and I think people should realise that things like PvP/WvW/Raids/Fractals are closer to niche content than general content. It's also the content you can do with sucky builds and that's important.

so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus.No it cannot only be attributed to that. That's my point. You are too narrow in your views to allow for other possibilities but I'll tell you this as a starting point: I am entirely focused on open world content, that's the part I enjoy in this game the most and I've stopped playing again.

It might not be the primary reason to attribute revenue loss to, but it certainly is a way more reasonable estimate than the contrary: raids (or hardcore content) are to blame for everything. Which is exactly the mantra continually presented by some players here.

The main difference between arguments presented in this thread, and I'll use the terms to represent both extremes here, casual and hardcore players (in a sense as far as taking part in challenging content):
  • hardcore players want some content be developed to them, with having had a niche of the development resources devoted to this content in the past
  • casual players want ALL the resources be devoted to their content, with a vast majority having been devoted currently and in the past already

Those are two very different points to start and base arguments off of. Having players blame the already very small resources devoted to challenging content when the vast majority of resources have always been spent on casual content makes a lot less sense than the other way around, aka complaining that the already small amount of resources for challenging content has hit 0.

Me personally, I've already expressed my position on this in the past: I think all players are needed. I think the current constraint on resources causes the prioritization of mass content, and open world content is mass content since most player partake in it, in hopes to keep as many players as possible.

I do think that most players who are in favor of only open world content will have a rude awakening when this game seizes to perform financially, due to the lack of part of the player base. I simply don't believe that the only open world crowd makes up sufficient of a revenue stream. But that's my personal assumption.

anyone who considers LW casual should take a look at other mmos, it is roughly on par with normal end game content

No it is not. You are comparing gear related endgame content in other games, where players are restricted in performance by gear, to this game's open world performance of players. Suffice to say, if you actually are able to play this game and are semi competent at it, open world content is irrelevant on the easiest to attain gear (exotic, not even talking about ascended). That's on par with players in other games severely out-gearing the open world content there.

There was a mention as to how big the performance disparity is between players recently. It was very big, along the lines of 1 to 10.

So yes, if you take the absolute low end performance as comparison, that might be true. The games combat system allows for far better performance though which is entirely skill and build based. Other games, while also having builds and skill involved, limit a huge part of the performance behind gear.

I honestly think every one should play this game as they see fit, and I too enjoy open world content. But if open world content in this game is a challenge to you, you are objectively very bad at the game (and this can have multiple reasons besides personal skill, it can be as simple as not bothering with creating a good build or understanding the very basics of this games combat). That's fine as is, but does not work as comparison to other games.

@battledrone.8315 said:and the big difference is, that doing the same content in other games will give some CHARACTER PROGRESSIONi just spend over 5 hrs doing the latest story in STO, it was pretty hard, but at least i got a cool new cruiser for itand if they had made it easier, i would had done it on ALL my characters toovery few was complaining over dungeons, hardcores farmed them, and the casuals didnt carethen came fractals..same deal

I can't speak to STO since I haven't played that game in ages. I do know that the game was very gear intensive back in the day, meaning if something was "to hard" it was easily compensated with some adjustments to gear of the officer setup one had (aka build).

As to gear progression, yes that is an issue for players who enjoy gear progressive systems (yet this has been the case for nearly 8 years by now). Not sure how this relates to instanced or open world content, since neither provides unique tier gear over the other.

@battledrone.8315 said:but when raiding arrived, we rightfully yelled out..that was THE THIRD END GAME SYSTEM they spend resources onand now we are at number four...see a pattern here?

I fail to see your argument here. During all this time, open world and story content has seen the primary amount of developer attention and resources devoted. The fact you consider something "end game" or not is not something that really matters in the resource allocation.

@battledrone.8315 said:they have made a few easy hearts here and there, but they are ALWAYS hidden behind end game content

That is factually untrue. The bulk of developer resources devote to GW2 has always been on open world and story content, 99% of which has been very easy. Not sure which endgame content you are referring to. I've been able to easily complete maps, stories and other goals in open world areas solo.

@battledrone.8315 said:i have never seen so good a game a with such a bad leadership, they never seemed to have any idea what they were going forand considering the manpower they have, we should have seen WAY more content, they are clearly still working on "other projects"

Well we can argue as much as we want about resources committed to other games, but this discussion has been about resource allocation WITHIN GW2.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:it's exclusively focusing on Open World content for at least the last 8 months, so any kind of population drop (or revenue drop) can only attributed to that Open World focus. When it comes to content type of course, other factors, like the lack of expansions, build templates, gem store and so on are regardless of content type released.Those two sentences contradict each other. You simply cannot say that it can ONLY be attributed to something and then add exceptions. Then it's not only.

So please make a choice. Are you maintaining the ONLY reason for the drop is the focus on open world or do you agree there are other factors involved that could cause the drop in revenue? Don't say both at the same time. That's called contradicting yourself.

Oh I absolutely agree that there are many factors involved, I posted some too, lack of expansions, the build template fiasco, uninteresting gem store items and so on. A revenue drop can never be attributed to the content type released alone, that's my stance and I will agree/promote it whenever I can. I can see how it might've been a contradiction, the "only" part was regarding content type released, didn't mean it as the Open World focus being the sole reason for the drop. Can't edit that "only" now as it would cause all other threads based on it make no sense. But I think I clarified it enough!

Cool, then I think ...get ready... we are in agreement :)

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It just hurts so much that my MMO franchise I played for so long is running into the downward spiral. I saw it coming; I mean how can you fare if you never really put out enough content? Even the expansions were not that big compared to the other big MMOs. And it was clear for me if they aren't even working on a new one this won't go well. And so it happened that I quite frankly quit playing the game after the prologue of Icebrood Saga. People want cantha, new land masses in a bunch and new features. But they aren't coming. So many things are stuck in time and never being released. It's just ridiculous. We aren't talking about a small chinese company which produces mobile games, we talk about Anet. Wow, I am speechless and sad.

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I have no doubt that content releases play some role in revenue. So, what else is involved? Maybe the answer lies in just what ANet is putting into the store to generate revenue.

Mount skins were the leaders in ensuring fairly stable revenue for 3 quarters in 2018. Then, the revenue plateau dropped from the 20-23 BKW level down to 15-16BKW from Q4-18 to Q3-19. How long has it been since we've seen a new mount skin package? It may well be that mount skins have reached a point of diminishing returns, due to an availability glut.

What are some of the other items that have contributed significantly to revenue from the store? I have little doubt that bag and bank slots and shared inventory have been significant contributors. However, how many of the target market for such things already have what they need? How likely is it that these items no longer provide as significant a contribution to revenue as they once did? To me, this seems a foregone conclusion.

So, were build/equipment loadouts/templates intended to take up the mantle of revenue leader? Whether ANet thought that or not, it's hard to imagine they didn't hope for big sales numbers on these items. Since Q4 is when these dropped, it certainly looks like that didn't happen.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gehenna.3625 said:So no, you cannot conclude from those revenue numbers that it can only be caused by a focus on open world content. The point that it coincides with the time period that other content is not coming out is called correllation and that is not the same as causation. That's the logic error you are making with your conclusion. It doesn't mean that it cannot be the cause, but it does mean that it doesn't prove that it's the actual cause and other causes are quite possible.

Not sure why you felt the need to respond again to a part that I already answered. But tell this to @"Blaeys.3102" above claiming that the game was losing revenue due to spreading too thin and creating Raids.

They need to focus on their core differentiators - open world, story and WvW. Anything that doesn't feed into those game modes needs to be put on hold indefinitely - including sPvP, raids, strike missions, etc. Focus all of those resources in the same area and make it as good as it can possibly be. Stop trying to compete for raiders from WoW or pvpers from LoL and make the parts of the game that offer something unique better and more fun.

I wonder why you didn't post the same thing to them. Oh right because you agree with the "raids are evil" narrative.

Ive never insinuated or even believed that raids are evil - just that they don't fit in this particular game. Yes, they can be fun. It is just that, to make raids work on the scale that will keep hardcore players interested, it would require a significantly higher investment and prioritization. From the beginning, you could tell the cadence would never match the demand and that players would have a hard time making a long term investment into them.

I want harder content in the game. I always have. Raids - in the way they were done - were just the wrong model to follow - and I believe they were done solely so Anet could use the word raids in their marketing - a short term good idea, but a long term recipe for disaster. Hard mode should integrate into the rest of the game - repeatable hard modes for story journal steps, triggerable versions of open world bosses/events (using the guild event trigger) with enhanced/new mechanics and difficulties - more competitive elements in wvw - etc.

Focus on the areas of the game that set you apart from the rest of the industry - and enhance those areas to appeal to a wider range of playstyle.

Again, it isn't about hating raids. I raided 25-man progression hardcore in WoW for 6+ years and have raided a lot in GW2. They just don't fit here.

Entry level marketing class tells us that when you try to be all things to all customers, you are going to lose the battle against competitors who master individual facets. Focus on what sets you apart and be better at it than anyone else out there (I cannot stress that enough - it is the underlying premise of almost every successful business worldwide). That is how you bring in customers that will remain loyal for years to come, which is really what the game needs more than anything.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months agoLast Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months agoLast time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

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I think almost all of the posters in this thread are focusing much too favorably on their own point of view.

Financially, only one thing makes sense: focus the resources where they will lead to an optimized revenue stream.

We can't see that data. And, neither ANet nor NCSoft is likely to tell us (although they should -- the game's life is at stake).

IF they are managing things correctly, they are finding which players spend the most money on the game. Then, how MUCH money do they spend vs. the rest of the population? Once they know those, it is trivial to place resources into the right areas. It's simple math.

The problem is that putting resources into game elements takes quite a bit of time to generate more revenue. They don't have that kind of time. Unless they start openly communicating that this is their intent, and what that intent is and how much they hope to make (in percentages, not raw money), the business will fail. There's not enough time left to hope they can produce well enough. They MUST tell the players what they're trying to do, and how they intend to do it. And then, hope that the players funnel enough money into the game to make this strategy pay off.

The past history of communicating only the barest minimum of information will almost certainly kill the game. Even if they DO start communicating, they will need to rely on the goodwill of the players. But, without it, it's hopeless.

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Financially, only one thing makes sense: focus the resources where they will lead to an optimized revenue stream.

We can't see that data. And, neither ANet nor NCSoft is likely to tell us (although they should -- the game's life is at stake).

IF they are managing things correctly, they are finding which players spend the most money on the game. Then, how MUCH money do they spend vs. the rest of the population? Once they know those, it is trivial to place resources into the right areas. It's simple math.The game needs content. PvE Fractals and raids is slow. Months; close to year(s) for one fractal stage or one raid (goes in kill 2-3 bosses). Any addition of such content usually sustained the rev for a period.

PvP/WvW game mode has remained the same for a very long time, there's 2v2 but it never stayed. There's balancing patch once in a while targeting PvP/WvW occasionally, little attention I suppose, but the game mode (capture points) remained the same since day one. Everytime a new competitive game mode is introduced, there's numbers.

Open world has story, but there's only so much it could do to retain after the players are done with the map/achievements. Replayability, not many will replay the story over and over and over.

There's a̶n̶n̶o̶u̶n̶c̶e̶m̶e̶n̶t̶ hints* for Fractals, no details; yet. Rehiring and hiring new staffs :smile:, not sure if it's a team for specific content or general.

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@Alyster.9470 said:Well, I blame to the overhyped icebrood saga announcement which made some people quit if they were not even going to. Continuous letdown releases such as build templates and no mention of elite specs also made it worse. Abandoning most content and not communicating with the community in time to give people something look forward to is just another thing that makes most people lose their faith thus they dont want to spend more on the game as they think its death is coming. Some good communication were made in the last few weeks but I guess that was a bit late considering all the backlash and drama already hit the point of no return for some players.

This pretty much hits the nail on the head. The misguided PAX event combined with the terrible rollout of build templates after a long time with very insufficient updates were a nail in the coffin.

It's really quite unreal how challenging it seems to be for Anet to develop the game. They don't have a small dev team... it seems obvious that something is extremely wrong with the way they're structured.

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Just something to keep in mind, that at some point, GW2 will go into maintenance mode with no new content. Probably bug fixes (so people can keep playing) and gemstore skins (so people spend money). This could be 2 years away, could be 10 years. Hard to really know.However, I would not expect this to be a sudden cutoff of all new content - I'd expect Anet to slowly drop the less important things (folks can debate what those things are and how that should be determined).I'd also think at some time, the transition may be to content to get players to come back, even if only for a few hours to complete the latest story or whatever that content is. In the hope that maybe they can hook them again, or get them to buy something else from the gemstore.I'd personally think that some types of contents may be more likely to draw those players back in than others, which might also determine what Anet puts their effort into.

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@Daddicus.6128 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:I know people love finding scapegoats to justify the loss in revenue but this is getting ridiculous.

Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months agoLast Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months agoLast time we got something (how matter small) for PVP/WVW was November 2018, 15 months ago

It's been a very long time that the game is almost exclusively focusing on open world PVE. So the reason for spreading so much and causing the revenue is because of the 5 Strikes they've released, out of which 2 of them were slight rehashes of story instance bosses. Meaning in almost 8 months the only non-open world content we got in the game was 3 platforms with a boss on top. Yes that can cause a massive split of resources and spread Arenanet too thin.

As for losing players, they are already losing players in troves because they only focus on the open world, we already see it in their revenue.

So, warclaw doesn't count as an update to WvW (no matter how small)?

Someone already responded to my post so editing it afterwards would make future posts make no sense.

Here you go:

Last Raid was released June 2019, 8 months agoLast time we got something for WVW was March 2019, 11 months agoLast Fractal was released January 2019, 13 months agoLast time we got something for PVP was November 2018, 15 months ago

I'm not sure how adding the Warclaw actually changes the results of my post though. The last 8 months, Q3 2019, Q4 2019 and Q1 2020 so far only contained open world releases. Exclusively. And yet there is talk about Arenanet spreading too thin to cater to all types of players.

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