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  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

    For real. I would straight up quit the class if the energy system was removed.

  • @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

    For real. I would straight up quit the class if the energy system was removed.

    Why? We dont have any advantage of the energy system anymore. High cds on weapon skills, utilities with high energy cost and most o them also with energy cost. Whats the benefit of energy? Cause i do not see any anymore

  • @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

    For real. I would straight up quit the class if the energy system was removed.

    Why? We dont have any advantage of the energy system anymore. High cds on weapon skills, utilities with high energy cost and most o them also with energy cost. Whats the benefit of energy? Cause i do not see any anymore

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

    For real. I would straight up quit the class if the energy system was removed.

    Why? We dont have any advantage of the energy system anymore. High cds on weapon skills, utilities with high energy cost and most o them also with energy cost. Whats the benefit of energy? Cause i do not see any anymore

    At ths point energy should stay just for the upkeep system and thats it

  • The energy system and the legend design seem to clash hard. On one hand, the energy system "should" give the advantage similar to initiative in that it determines what skills are available as opposed to cooldowns. The problem is that this doesn't work with the design of utility skills and especially the thematic nature of the legends. The theme of legends makes it so their respective utility skills have to be thematic around the legends so there are usually a lot of skills loaded with different effects. Then the fact that they're utility skills requires them to provide important functions like stunbreaks, condi cleanses, and other important combat functions. So the two criteria of needing the utilities to fulfill certain functions as other classes utilities skills while also being thematic enough to fit with the legend which must be represented in 5 skills results in skills that are usually to powerful to be spammed thus resulting in high cooldowns. And then you have weapon skills that are designed more like the average class and not like the thief.

    I think the weapon skills and utilities should be designed around cooldowns, but they also manipulate the energy bar in either a positive or negative direction, but dont require energy to use. And traits can be made revolving around whether or not the energy is positive, negative, or equilibrium and provide bonuses or whatever.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Scoobaniec.9561 said:

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @mrauls.6519 said:
    They need to remove energy management and make Rev a CD dependent class like Guardian

    We don't want rev to be as boring to play as guardian.

    For real. I would straight up quit the class if the energy system was removed.

    Why? We dont have any advantage of the energy system anymore. High cds on weapon skills, utilities with high energy cost and most o them also with energy cost. Whats the benefit of energy? Cause i do not see any anymore

    I mean to an extent you are right. But when I am playing the class I absolutely feel the energy system in effect. Some of them have short to medium cooldowns, yes, but generally the CD's don't feel too oppressive given their value. I mean there's something pretty special about being able to spam Banish Enchantment to completely neuter a bunker, to spam Riposting Shadows to get out of a hairy situation, to upkeep major RotGD under major incoming pressure, to completely coat a party in resistance for a long period of time, to pulse out big burst heals from Ventari to help survive repetitive incoming spikes. I don't like playing Kalla much because it feels less like a Revenant if that makes sense, but the core legends maintain something special about them. I feel that energy system intact even if I dont fully agree with every little change they have made in that regard. I still feel like I get to play as I choose, even with some restrictions. Not trying to advocate that it is perfect by any means. I was very vocal about my dislike of the Mallyx rework due to the longer cooldowns, but they adjusted the legend to what it is now, which is a very fluid and impactful kit.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think there is a degree to which, with cooldowns of weapon skills going up and the effectiveness going down, taking energy costs off weapon skills might well be justified. Making the revenant essentially an inverse of thief: weapon skills are cooldown-based, utility skills are largely resource-based.

    I don't think it's possible to lose energy costs on non-healing utility skills without also losing upkeep skills, however: upkeep skills need some resource to limit them, and if that resource is ONLY ever used for the upkeep skill, they'd almost be no-brainers.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2020

    Kinda curious if Corruption and Mallyx will gain any momentum for power builds, maybe something like a Corr/Dev/Invo core build with Resistance Runes and all the resistance traits from Corruption. It'd be pretty insane resistance uptime, which would not only provide damage reduction, but also a HoT from the GM. Could help replace the sustain from Steadfast Rejuv since it is getting nerfed. Hard to gauge whether it would be worth sacrificing another legend and traitline for it, but the boonrip and CC utility from Mallyx is still quite nice for power builds, especially with boon/stab and stunbreak uptime going down.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Energy should be reserved for Legend Utilities and not Weapon skills.

    The damage on Weapon skills are being nerfed down the more acceptable standards afterall, and the increased CD means it's just straight up robbery for making us have cooldowns and energy costs just to cast a weapon skill.

    @Pterikdactyl.7630 said:
    Kinda curious if Corruption and Mallyx will gain any momentum for power builds, maybe something like a Corr/Dev/Invo core build with Resistance Runes and all the resistance traits from Corruption. It'd be pretty insane resistance uptime, which would not only provide damage reduction, but also a HoT from the GM. Could help replace the sustain from Steadfast Rejuv since it is getting nerfed. Hard to gauge whether it would be worth sacrificing another legend and traitline for it, but the boonrip and CC utility from Mallyx is still quite nice for power builds, especially with boon/stab and stunbreak uptime going down.

    If Invoke Torment has any sort of Power Scaling, I assure yu people will run it on Core Rev at the very least.

    Plus Corruption's condi Transfer will single handedly solve all of Rev's Condi weakness.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think Energy should be reserved for Legend Utilities and not Weapon skills.

    This. Either that or have energy start at like 75% when switching legends in combat.

  • I only have 1 compliant about the changes, Corruption line is less "corruption-ish". I loved my opportune extraction boon steal. steal a boon, give a condition. it was nice flavor.
    with the changes to banish enchantment, this could be rolled in to the 3 hits. steal the first boon, corrupt the second, remove the third. And bam! i'm corrupting things again!
    The last thing i want is corruption rev to feel like a condition necro, Rev should be more about corrupting others, and less about self corruption. we already have the necro doing that.

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2020

    Am I the only one who thinks the changes to corr might be a net nerf? We'r gonna need to run the numbers real hard when the patch hits

  • Master Ketsu.4569Master Ketsu.4569 Member ✭✭✭✭

    The overall issue is defenses are getting overnerfed ( RS overnerf ) and offense is getting undernerfed ( Quickness access is still completely out of control ), leading Rev further and further down the path of a glass cannon cheese class.

  • RedShark.9548RedShark.9548 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JayAction.9056 said:
    Revenant damage nerfs are LOL.

    Rev was already the lowest damage class in PVP. This is hard LOL. Like I'm not even mad. Dead just laughing.

    They got rid of confusion on rev condi builds, but do they realize condi rev almost completely relies on the confusion proc from the corruption tree to score kills???
    The damage and duration of Revenant condis is entirely too low

    Power Rev is DEAD.

    They even nerfed the burn damage, so like now what is the point of mace #2. At this point the majority of Rev skills are looking like why are they there.

    I have not read the entirety of the patch notes but if they did not nerf other classes as severly Revenant will probably be dead after this patch.

    Not even whinning but this is 'LOL'

    Rev lowest dmg class in pvp? I guess thats why it was top pick in the last ATs next to firebrand.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    Am I the only one who thinks the changes to corr might be a net nerf? We'r gonna need to run the numbers real hard when the patch hits

    The new changes to Corruption is actually gonna make Burst Condi an even more prevailent strategy to employ on condi Revs.

    If the player chooses to trait for it, they can potentially jump on someone and drop alot of Burning and Torment with just a Legend swap.
    Song of the Mists + new Invoke Torment + new Diabolic Inferno + Sigil of Geomancy + Sigil of Hydromancy (Abyssal Chill)

    All on one Legend Swap.

    That's like Torment + Burning + Bleed + Poison in a burst.

    And considering they are passively gaining 120 Condition damage and 10% condi duration, they can straight up invest in pure Condition Damage, making them a Burst Condi character.

    So what yu would do is Axe 4 in and swap on the guy, then turn on EtD and just start whaling on the guy.

    And if Invoke Torment works on Legend Swap and not just Mallyx, they can do this while swapping into Glint as well.

    If yu translate this to PvE, it will be mostly swapping Mallyx and Kalla in melee range while camping Mace.
    (though for this case yu will not use SotM but use Charged Mists instead and upkeep Soulcleave's and EtD respectively)

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think Energy should be reserved for Legend Utilities and not Weapon skills.

    I hope this will happen in the future, since Legend Utilities get more and more expensive. Also having CDs on weapon skills AND having to pay energy for them is ridiculous.

  • Konrad Curze.5130Konrad Curze.5130 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    Am I the only one who thinks the changes to corr might be a net nerf? We'r gonna need to run the numbers real hard when the patch hits

    The new changes to Corruption is actually gonna make Burst Condi an even more prevailent strategy to employ on condi Revs.

    If the player chooses to trait for it, they can potentially jump on someone and drop alot of Burning and Torment with just a Legend swap.
    Song of the Mists + new Invoke Torment + new Diabolic Inferno + Sigil of Geomancy + Sigil of Hydromancy (Abyssal Chill)

    All on one Legend Swap.

    That's like Torment + Burning + Bleed + Poison in a burst.

    right I was talking about PvE

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    And considering they are passively gaining 120 Condition damage and 10% condi duration, they can straight up invest in pure Condition Damage, making them a Burst Condi character.

    rather, considering that we are losing Rampant Vex and our condi weapons still have kitten power coefs. we should invest in pure condition damage because precision is practically worthless now

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    If yu translate this to PvE, it will be mostly swapping Mallyx and Kalla in melee range while camping Mace.
    (though for this case yu will not use SotM but use Charged Mists instead and upkeep Soulcleave's and EtD respectively)

    translated to PvE we are gaining up to 25% (if traited) condi duration in general (5% for torment), gaining 5% condi damage in general, while losing 15% damage to torment (5% if traited), torment on crits, boon stealing, and confusion

    Now, the overwhelming majority of condi damage that revs do is in the form of torment with a small side of burning, with poison and bleeding barely being covers, and we are losing lots of stacks without Vex and losing raw torment damage from the rework on YE...Im dubious we'r gonna come out ahead here.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2020

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:

    Now, the overwhelming majority of condi damage that revs do is in the form of torment with a small side of burning, with poison and bleeding barely being covers, and we are losing lots of stacks without Vex and losing raw torment damage from the rework on YE...Im dubious we'r gonna come out ahead here.

    It probably means that "Condi" Revs for Raiding aren't gonna be true Condi anymore.

    They might go for some sort of Hybrid.
    Call me crazy but I have a theorized build that Corruption - Devastation - Kalla might be a thing.

    HEAR ME OUT.

    The idea is Mace/Axe - SB

    Use Brutality Devastation Grandmaster for self Quickness.
    EtD/Soulcleave will refresh Expose Defenses alot
    Battle Scarred for Battle Scar life siphon buff everytime yu activate heal, so activate for more DPS
    Alternatively use the new Unsuspecting Strikes to burst down 20% of the bosses' health fast
    Assassins Presence to buff allies

    I mean since they are gonna make Invocation horrible to use, I rather just swap Legends every 10 seconds to keep applying Invoke Torment rather than camp the Legend to drain out EtD/Soulcleave's.

    So... Grieving + Sinister probably.

    It's either that or yur gonna go for full Upkeep camping with their new Replenishing Despair + EtD/Soulcleave's and Charged Mists.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    translated to PvE we are gaining up to 25% (if traited) condi duration in general (5% for torment), gaining 5% condi damage in general, while losing 15% damage to torment (5% if traited), torment on crits, boon stealing, and confusion

    Now, the overwhelming majority of condi damage that revs do is in the form of torment with a small side of burning, with poison and bleeding barely being covers, and we are losing lots of stacks from missing Vex AND raw torment damage from the rework on YE...Im dubious we'r gonna come out ahead here.

    >
    The new torment bonus damage is 10% not 5%. We also need to consider the fact that the new 25% increased condi duration is for all damaging conditions, not just torment. We never capped on any condition durations other than poison (but that was only 5% of overall dps). Burning in the current build sits at a measly ~70% (68.87%) for only ~20% of overall dps, and bleeding just a few decimals under that (although bleeding has a 25% duration modifier. This will heavily increase the damage from burning, since its the highest damage condition per tick in the game. The 120 condition damage obviously also applies to all our condi's as well which will buff them all up helping compensate.

    Seeing as its only a 10% damage loss from torment, while gaining 5% more duration for torment (which rev did not cap out on with its 88.87% duration) and 25% more for burning, plsu the bsaeline condition damage bonus, we'll be able to stack much more condi than before and each of them will be doing more damage per stack than before. Seems like an overall buff in my eyes but, obviously we wont know for sure until patch hits.

    edit: condi renegade has an average 5.5 hits per second for a perfect rotation. With full endurance you get 100% crit chance under raid buffs (spotter, fury, banners), so 5.5 crits per second or 330 per minute on average. this means you would get an average of 1.815 (~2) rampent vex procs per second at 3second base durations (5 3/4s after duration increase) which maintains about 10 1/2 stacks, which at full buffs is about 188 dmg per second per stack @ 10.5 stacks = 1,972 dps, or about 5.5% overall dps.

    Thats significant, but not out of the ballpark that all the buffs outweigh.

    edit2: after more thought, if the new invoke torment applies 2 stacks at 10s base duration (which isn't unreasonable) it'll make up for about 76% of the dps loss from rampent vex, by itself.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Konrad Curze.5130 said:
    translated to PvE we are gaining up to 25% (if traited) condi duration in general (5% for torment), gaining 5% condi damage in general, while losing 15% damage to torment (5% if traited), torment on crits, boon stealing, and confusion

    Now, the overwhelming majority of condi damage that revs do is in the form of torment with a small side of burning, with poison and bleeding barely being covers, and we are losing lots of stacks from missing Vex AND raw torment damage from the rework on YE...Im dubious we'r gonna come out ahead here.

    >
    The new torment bonus damage is 10% not 5%. We also need to consider the fact that the new 25% increased condi duration is for all damaging conditions, not just torment. We never capped on any condition durations other than poison (but that was only 5% of overall dps). Burning in the current build sits at a measly ~70% (68.87%) for only ~20% of overall dps, and bleeding just a few decimals under that (although bleeding has a 25% duration modifier. This will heavily increase the damage from burning, since its the highest damage condition per tick in the game. The 120 condition damage obviously also applies to all our condi's as well which will buff them all up helping compensate.

    Seeing as its only a 10% damage loss from torment, while gaining 5% more duration for torment (which rev did not cap out on with its 88.87% duration) and 25% more for burning, plsu the bsaeline condition damage bonus, we'll be able to stack much more condi than before and each of them will be doing more damage per stack than before. Seems like an overall buff in my eyes but, obviously we wont know for sure until patch hits.

    edit: condi renegade has an average 5.5 hits per second for a perfect rotation. With full endurance you get 100% crit chance under raid buffs (spotter, fury, banners), so 5.5 crits per second or 330 per minute on average. this means you would get an average of 1.815 (~2) rampent vex procs per second at 3second base durations (5 3/4s after duration increase) which maintains about 10 1/2 stacks, which at full buffs is about 188 dmg per second per stack @ 10.5 stacks = 1,972 dps, or about 5.5% overall dps.

    Thats significant, but not out of the ballpark that all the buffs outweigh.

    edit2: after more thought, if the new invoke torment applies 2 stacks at 10s base duration (which isn't unreasonable) it'll make up for about 76% of the dps loss from rampent vex, by itself.

    My guess is that the new best way to build a pve dps condi renegade will be runes of the renegade, siglis of fire and torment duration, and full expertise duration infusions. Along with full Vipers, and consumables, that would put the condition durations at Bleed 104.87% Torment 99.87% Burning 99.87% Poison 79.87%.

    You will loose the bleeding and poison sigils that are currently used, but pick up 7% condition damage across the board, as well as higher durations for torment bleeding and burning than were previously the case with nightmare runes and the current corruption trait-line. Not sure if the bench will be lower higher or the same, but my guess is that it might actually be a bit higher than it is now...

  • Ertrak.9506Ertrak.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    My guess is that the new best way to build a pve dps condi renegade will be runes of the renegade, siglis of fire and torment duration, and full expertise duration infusions. Along with full Vipers, and consumables, that would put the condition durations at Bleed 104.87% Torment 99.87% Burning 99.87% Poison 79.87%.

    You will loose the bleeding and poison sigils that are currently used, but pick up 7% condition damage across the board, as well as higher durations for torment bleeding and burning than were previously the case with nightmare runes and the current corruption trait-line. Not sure if the bench will be lower higher or the same, but my guess is that it might actually be a bit higher than it is now...

    That's definitely a possibility. There's also been talk about elementalist runes. The biggest thing is giving up that double proc of being able to get 2 different on-swap sigils due to weapon + legend swap. They're the entire reason we don't run malice already. Definitely excited to see where it all ends up.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 20, 2020

    I did the math on 2earth geo doom and together they are about 2600dps or about 7% of the 37k large hit box bench. So it’s kind of a wash. But going the renegade rune route is more versatile as the 7% from that applies to times when you are forced to attack from range or when you can’t do the procs because of mechanics.

  • Jthug.9506Jthug.9506 Member ✭✭✭

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    My guess is that the new best way to build a pve dps condi renegade will be runes of the renegade, siglis of fire and torment duration, and full expertise duration infusions. Along with full Vipers, and consumables, that would put the condition durations at Bleed 104.87% Torment 99.87% Burning 99.87% Poison 79.87%.

    You will loose the bleeding and poison sigils that are currently used, but pick up 7% condition damage across the board, as well as higher durations for torment bleeding and burning than were previously the case with nightmare runes and the current corruption trait-line. Not sure if the bench will be lower higher or the same, but my guess is that it might actually be a bit higher than it is now...

    That's definitely a possibility. There's also been talk about elementalist runes. The biggest thing is giving up that double proc of being able to get 2 different on-swap sigils due to weapon + legend swap. They're the entire reason we don't run malice already. Definitely excited to see where it all ends up.

    On the elementalist thing I was watching Teapot today and in going over the upcoming changes he seemed to think that it's possible that because of the wording of the new "Yearning Empowerment: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the duration of all damaging conditions by 10%." it might mean that it increases the base duration of conditions rather than increasing the duration on the character panel. If that's true then yeah elementalist runes would probably be ideal.

  • Miellyn.6847Miellyn.6847 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    @Ertrak.9506 said:

    @Jthug.9506 said:

    My guess is that the new best way to build a pve dps condi renegade will be runes of the renegade, siglis of fire and torment duration, and full expertise duration infusions. Along with full Vipers, and consumables, that would put the condition durations at Bleed 104.87% Torment 99.87% Burning 99.87% Poison 79.87%.

    You will loose the bleeding and poison sigils that are currently used, but pick up 7% condition damage across the board, as well as higher durations for torment bleeding and burning than were previously the case with nightmare runes and the current corruption trait-line. Not sure if the bench will be lower higher or the same, but my guess is that it might actually be a bit higher than it is now...

    That's definitely a possibility. There's also been talk about elementalist runes. The biggest thing is giving up that double proc of being able to get 2 different on-swap sigils due to weapon + legend swap. They're the entire reason we don't run malice already. Definitely excited to see where it all ends up.

    On the elementalist thing I was watching Teapot today and in going over the upcoming changes he seemed to think that it's possible that because of the wording of the new "Yearning Empowerment: This trait has been reworked. It now increases the duration of all damaging conditions by 10%." it might mean that it increases the base duration of conditions rather than increasing the duration on the character panel. If that's true then yeah elementalist runes would probably be ideal.

    All base condition increases right now are skill specific, like scepter conditions for necro and pistols for ingis. The chance that the revenant trait will increase the base duration instead of the condition duration stat is pretty close to zero.

  • Pterikdactyl.7630Pterikdactyl.7630 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 26, 2020

    Haven't played too much Rev today, but a few notes:
    -Pulsating Pestilence got ninja-nerfed in PvP/WvW unmentioned in the patch notes since it got a "rework" aka interaction with Invoke Torment. 3 conditions to 2.
    -Also very relevant: Invoke Torment has a delay, maybe like 0.5-1s? So all of its interacting traits have a delay as well. Most notably, no more instant transfer. Counterplay is more clear now.
    -An addition: Previously, when both Pulsating Pestilence and Cleansing Channel, I think--although am not positive--that Pulsating Pestilence would take priority over Cleansing Channel. Now since Cleansing Channel procs before Pulsating Pestilence (er, Permeating Pestilence) due to Invoke Torment's delay, the cleanse is prioritized.