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[Spoilers] I don't trust Jhavi


Stephen.6312

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I'd be worried this would be a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist since so far, everything points against it. Why would she cosy up to Jormag then lead an attack on Drakkar? It's not like Jhavi would replace Drakkar. Plus she interpreted the code and told us where to find the body. There's not much logic in her doing that if she went to the trouble of killing and burying her out of the way.

Unless she was somehow not in control of herself and did something without memory. That could be a way round - I'm just not sure if that's something that usually coexists with potential corruption. I'm sure someone can clarify on that either way

There are ways round it and it will require a lot of stretching, albeit the essence of a good plot twist did exist - esp given her bloodline is connected to Svanir as well as Jora, I'm just not convinced it has been handled right so far to foreshadow it and make it a twist that holds together

There is also the question of whether the story can handle the addition of such a wrinkle, given the focus is on what appears to be Bangar and and his army seemingly turned to hostility - willingly or manipulated.

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@Randulf.7614 said:

Unless she was somehow not in control of herself and did something without memory. That could be a way round - I'm just not sure if that's something that usually coexists with potential corruption. I'm sure someone can clarify on that either way

There haven't been any previous cases where dragon corruption is known to have caused the subject to forget what occurred 'under the influence'. The closest we've seen to corruption-induced amnesia is the difficulty Mordrem Guard seem to have holding on to who they used to be, but A.) that seems to be a difficulty in focusing, not remembering, and B.) it worked in the opposite direction from what's being proposed here. In fact, minions and ex-minions willing to discuss the matter with us describe the killing they did as fairly vivid memories...

... but, then again, a lot of what Jormag's doing right now seems to be unprecedented. We've never had a dragon deliberately lure us in before, or treat us as a piece on their board. In short, while there's no precedent for dragon-related, targeted, memory loss, there is a precedent for ANet throwing twists out of the blue, wherever they might have the most impact. Jhavi's loyalties might simply rest on what comes next. If she stays with us for the rest of the arc, they almost need some twist or other to justify it, considering how undeveloped her character has been prior to this point. On the other hand, if she quietly drops out of events now that Drakkar is dead, she's likely in the clear, even if she does crop up again as one more face in the crowd when we gather our allies for the final push.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:At the meta you can hear Jhavi talking for a moment as if she is Jormag. Not just a voice in your head, its actually her character talking (like the dead Svanir). Just saying :p

I've never seen or heard this. But I imagine that they're just using Jhavi as the NPC relaying the voice for Jormag so that it remains local and on the move since Jormag speaks multiple times in the meta. This isn't an unusual thing for them to do, and is pure mechanics not lore.

@Randulf.7614 said:I'd be worried this would be a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist since so far, everything points against it. Why would she cosy up to Jormag then lead an attack on Drakkar? It's not like Jhavi would replace Drakkar. Plus she interpreted the code and told us where to find the body. There's not much logic in her doing that if she went to the trouble of killing and burying her out of the way.My thoughts exactly.

Hence why they'd have to be careful with how they would pull such a twist. Having plot twists for the sake of plot twists is never a good thing - just look at the Balthazar reveal coming out of asshat nowhere and having little to no logical reasoning behind it.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:At the meta you can hear Jhavi talking for a moment as if she is Jormag. Not just a voice in your head, its actually her character talking (like the dead Svanir). Just saying :p

I've never seen or heard this. But I imagine that they're just using Jhavi as the NPC relaying the voice for Jormag so that it remains local and on the move since Jormag speaks multiple times in the meta. This isn't an unusual thing for them to do, and is pure mechanics not lore.But if you
also
hear whispers related with the meta, its not for mechanical reasons.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:But if you also hear whispers related with the meta, its not for mechanical reasons.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Mechanically, all voice dialogue has to have an origin point. Usually this is the NPC that's actually speaking - when so, the dialogue will trigger said NPC to also do some mouth flapping.

When the dialogue triggers regardless of your location, the source of the dialogue is usually the PC itself.

If the NPC Jhavi's mouth is flapping during Jormag's dialogue, this means that Jhavi's NPC is being used as the source for Jormag's dialogue. You can tell that during the Drakkar events, Jormag's whispers are local to Jhavi's location because if you're not near her when she passes through the tunnels, you won't hear Jormag's whisper (even if you get the whisper effect). Most likely, rather than having some hidden NPC in the ground that triggers dialogue as Jhavi gets close, they just used Jhavi herself.

Elsewhere in the map, the whispers seem to use the PC as the origin point. Though it also seems that they disabled mouth flapping for that. Presumably, if Jhavi's mouth does move during Jormag's voiced dialogue, it's because they're both using her as the origin point (so players not near the meta won't get the whispers and they don't need to add another NPC to the area - what with having seventeen Drakkar props in the arenas) and they forgot to disable mouth flapping for those lines.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:But if you
also
hear whispers related with the meta, its not for mechanical reasons.

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Mechanically, all voice dialogue has to have an origin point. Usually this is the NPC that's actually speaking - when so, the dialogue will trigger said NPC to also do some mouth flapping.

When the dialogue triggers regardless of your location, the source of the dialogue is usually the PC itself.

If the NPC Jhavi's mouth is flapping during Jormag's dialogue, this means that Jhavi's NPC is being used as the source for Jormag's dialogue. You can tell that during the Drakkar events, Jormag's whispers are local to Jhavi's location because if you're not near her when she passes through the tunnels, you won't hear Jormag's whisper (even if you get the whisper effect). Most likely, rather than having some hidden NPC in the ground that triggers dialogue as Jhavi gets close, they just used Jhavi herself.

Elsewhere in the map, the whispers seem to use the PC as the origin point. Though it also seems that they disabled mouth flapping for that. Presumably, if Jhavi's mouth does move during Jormag's voiced dialogue, it's because they're both using her as the origin point (so players not near the meta won't get the whispers and they don't need to add another NPC to the area - what with having
) and they forgot to disable mouth flapping for those lines.That's an awfull long response for basicly saying... you can hear Jhavi talking for a moment as if she's Jormag.

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@"Dawdler.8521" said:

That's an awfull long response for basicly saying... you can hear Jhavi talking for a moment as if she's Jormag.

And that's an awfully short way to reveal you entirely missed the point.

The point is that the devs merely use Jhavi's body as a microphone for the whispers - most likely not for any story reason whatsoever, but just to make sure that most players actually hear the whisper during the meta. That's not at all "Jhavi talking for a moment as if she's Jormag," if it wasn't meant to make Jhavi actually serve as a story mouthpiece for the dragon, but just the most convenient mechanical tool for it.

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@voltaicbore.8012 said:

@"Dawdler.8521" said:

That's an awfull long response for basicly saying... you can hear Jhavi talking for a moment as if she's Jormag.

And that's an awfully short way to reveal you entirely missed the point.

The point is that the devs merely use Jhavi's body as a microphone for the whispers - most likely not for any story reason whatsoever, but just to make sure that most players actually hear the whisper during the meta. That's not at all "Jhavi talking for a moment as if she's Jormag," if it wasn't meant to make Jhavi actually serve as a story mouthpiece for the dragon, but just the most convenient mechanical tool for it.But how do you know that, when she's doing it ingame?

It's like saying that instead of insta-teleporting to the event, the escort from the waypoint to the first drakkar boss is just a 10m timer and that Jhavi is a convenient mechanical tool for delaying the players arriving.

Well yeah. Duh. It is. But in the game she's still being escorted there.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

It's like saying that instead of insta-teleporting to the event, the escort from the waypoint to the first drakkar boss is just a 10m timer and that Jhavi is a convenient mechanical tool for delaying the players arriving.

Well yeah. Duh. It is. But in the game she's still being escorted there.

Not a good analogy. There are actually objectives that are more than mere delay - anyone completely out of essences can charge up all 3 colors on the way to the first room. You can also top off with the enemy waves at the end of the first room, but for whatever reason I've found it much harder to land a full 30 during those phases than in the pre-first-room portal fights.

As for how anyone knows for sure that the devs chose to use Jhavi for purely mechanical and not story reasons, I don't know for sure. I just think they decided to avoid further weird bugs like the Light of Deldrimor skritt voice being audible to everyone on the Thunderhead map, and found that localizing the whispers on the escort npc would simultaneously ensure that everyone doing the meta would hear the whisper, and non-participants would be spared.

So yes, you are correct that nobody knows (short of a dev confirming it directly) 100% why the whispers are localized on Jhavi. But the point is that there are other good potential explanations besides Jhavi's voice not being her own anymore.

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I'm not sure I understand the reasoning of using a character that was bugged but was supposed to talk as the character, as evidence that another character that talks as the character is purely for mechanical reasons. But ok. I guess nothing is as it seems ingame and Almorra probably burried herself for mechanical reasons so she wouldnt have to talk to the commander.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:I guess nothing is as it seems ingame and Almorra probably burried herself for mechanical reasons so she wouldnt have to talk to the commander.

That's an even worse analogy than voltaicbore mentioning the skritt in Thunderhead Keep.

All you need to know is that there is a separation between mechanics and lore.

For example: Mechanically, there are seventeen Drakkars in the map. Lorewise, there's only one.

Mechanically, Jhavi is being used as the source for the whisper dialogue. Lorewise, the whispers come from Jormag via Drakkar.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I guess nothing is as it seems ingame and Almorra probably burried herself for mechanical reasons so she wouldnt have to talk to the commander.

That's an even worse analogy than voltaicbore mentioning the skritt in Thunderhead Keep.

All you need to know is that there
is
a separation between mechanics and lore.

For example: Mechanically, there are seventeen Drakkars in the map. Lorewise, there's only one.

Mechanically, Jhavi is being used as the source for the whisper dialogue. Lorewise, the whispers come from Jormag via Drakkar.That wasnt an analogy. I know exactly what the separation between mechanics and lore is and that's why I consider the the lore reasoning flawed.

Again... It's not a whisper. That was my entire point, but you keep going back to that. Was it Drakkar that whispered in your mind through the dead fraenir and made him move? No. The dead really did move and it was Jormag that talked through the corpse... Face to face. Jormags own words. This means that lorewise, Jormag can talk through other people, not just whisper through Drakkar. Otherwise that mission makes no sense.

As a further note on that... Crecia Stoneglow: So that comm from Almorra... Jormag was using.. Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: Oh, Spirits.... Which means that the coms you heard from Almorra wasnt whispers in your mind either, it really was Almorra. So why couldnt Jormag use Jhavi, albeit for a brief moment before she take control and tell you not to listen to the voice?

If we had seen zero evidence that Jormag could do any of this, I would agree with you. And if you can tell me how I am lorewise completely wrong with the above points and that Jormag most definetly cannot speak through characters, that's fine and dandy.

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@Dawdler.8521 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I guess nothing is as it seems ingame and Almorra probably burried herself for mechanical reasons so she wouldnt have to talk to the commander.

That's an even worse analogy than voltaicbore mentioning the skritt in Thunderhead Keep.

All you need to know is that there
is
a separation between mechanics and lore.

For example: Mechanically, there are seventeen Drakkars in the map. Lorewise, there's only one.

Mechanically, Jhavi is being used as the source for the whisper dialogue. Lorewise, the whispers come from Jormag via Drakkar.That wasnt an analogy. I know exactly what the separation between mechanics and lore is and that's why I consider the the lore reasoning flawed.

Again...
It's not a whisper
. That was my entire point, but you keep going back to that. Was it Drakkar that
whispered
in your mind through the dead fraenir and made him move? No. The dead really did move and it was
Jormag that talked through the corpse
... Face to face. Jormags own words. This means that lorewise, Jormag can talk through other people, not just whisper through Drakkar. Otherwise that mission makes no sense.

As a further note on that...
Crecia Stoneglow: So that comm from Almorra... Jormag was using.. Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: Oh, Spirits...
. Which means that the coms you heard from Almorra wasnt whispers in your mind either, it really was Almorra. So why couldnt Jormag use Jhavi, albeit for a brief moment before she take control and tell you not to listen to the voice?

I think it's better to think of Drakkar similarly to a magic microphone.It's Jormag's voice and power it's just amplified through Drakkar to increase Jormag's range of influence without having to move itself.If Drakkar wasn't in the area then Jormag would probably have had to be physically closer in order to speak directly through the corpse of the fraenir.

Now with Drakkar dead it's possible we won't hear much from Jormag until we get closer to it, unless it has more than one champion acting as a mouthpiece.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:I guess nothing is as it seems ingame and Almorra probably burried herself for mechanical reasons so she wouldnt have to talk to the commander.

That's an even worse analogy than voltaicbore mentioning the skritt in Thunderhead Keep.

All you need to know is that there
is
a separation between mechanics and lore.

For example: Mechanically, there are seventeen Drakkars in the map. Lorewise, there's only one.

Mechanically, Jhavi is being used as the source for the whisper dialogue. Lorewise, the whispers come from Jormag via Drakkar.That wasnt an analogy. I know exactly what the separation between mechanics and lore is and that's why I consider the the lore reasoning flawed.

Again...
It's not a whisper
. That was my entire point, but you keep going back to that. Was it Drakkar that
whispered
in your mind through the dead fraenir and made him move? No. The dead really did move and it was
Jormag that talked through the corpse
... Face to face. Jormags own words. This means that lorewise, Jormag can talk through other people, not just whisper through Drakkar. Otherwise that mission makes no sense.

As a further note on that...
Crecia Stoneglow: So that comm from Almorra... Jormag was using.. Warmaster Jhavi Jorasdottir: Oh, Spirits...
. Which means that the coms you heard from Almorra wasnt whispers in your mind either, it really was Almorra. So why couldnt Jormag use Jhavi, albeit for a brief moment before she take control and tell you not to listen to the voice?

I think it's better to think of Drakkar similarly to a magic microphone.It's Jormag's voice and power it's just amplified through Drakkar to increase Jormag's range of influence without having to move itself.If Drakkar wasn't in the area then Jormag would probably have had to be physically closer in order to speak directly through the corpse of the fraenir.

Now with Drakkar dead it's possible we won't hear much from Jormag until we get closer to it, unless it has more than one champion acting as a mouthpiece.I dont see it as a magic microphone. I see two different things here:

Drakkar is the propaganda machine of Jormag. Basicly "give up" etc whispers across every soul nearby. The things Jormag cant be arsed to do herself.But Jormag can also take direct control and talk through others.

And in the event... both things happen. And that Jhavi may be closer to Jormag than we think. I dont know, maybe I'm just bad at explaining.

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