Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Achievement Point Discussion


Recommended Posts

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:But no such proposal has been made . . .

You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .

I keep repeating that you have said it, yes.

Didn't say that.You say it again two sentences down . . .

You insist that the fact that players have ap available that they have not acquired means the unavailability of the lost content does not affect them.

And this is true. A player to be affected by the missing AP needs to get all the other AP first, or at least most of them.This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it. As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .

If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

But it doesn't affect them.A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content. If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .

You accept that many of the players who do not currently have access to the lost content would reap at least some of its rewards if it was available.

No. They would get some of the AP, nothing to do with the rewards. If they want the rewards, there is tons of AP available to them. If they want to see that number going slightly higher, then it's a different story.AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

So now you're back to arguing that they would not do the story? Either they would or they wouldn't, pick a lane. If you're arguing they wouldn't, the data doesn't support you, as you noted. If you're arguing that they would, you must acknowledge that they would receive the rewards . . .

They wouldn't and the data does support that they don't. But if they did, they wouldn't receive most of the rewards simply by finishing the 10 AP of the story. The story has nothing to do with AP rewards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 312
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

@"Gop.8713" said:I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet

So just four titles? That's your big problem here the 4 missing titles? And the key word is "yet", meaning they will become available sooner or later.

They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

What are you on here? The current maximum is at ~42500 AP, removing the 5800 missing AP means a player that has ALL THE OTHER AP unlocked, will be at 36700, meaning the unique rewards they will be missing are the 39k and the 42k, the 2 backguards. And that assumes a player finished ALL THE OTHER AP. And also that no future AP will be added to allow them to get the 39k and 42k reward in the first place. You said it yourself above, the key word is "yet", which makes removing them pointless in the first place.

Do you count pinnacle skins as "missing" because everyone has access to them at very low AP counts. It's their choice which one to pick.

AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

AP is how rewards are unlocked yes. Someone that has 35k AP to go, cannot complain that they are missing 5k AP, get the 35k first and then you can complain all you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Gop.8713" said:I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet

So just four titles? That's your big problem here the 4 missing titles? And the key word is "yet", meaning they will become available sooner or later.There's the pinnacle skin choices as well. They are not obtainable through any other means. I take it by your reaction here that you did not have a good understanding of the proposed solution and now seem to consider the unique rewards a much smaller issue? And, as always, the 'yet' only matters if no more rewards are introduced . . .

They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.

What are you on here? The current maximum is at ~42500 AP,Ty, I've been asking for that number for some time. It helps tremendously . . .removing the 5800 missing AP means a player that has ALL THE OTHER AP unlocked, will be at 36700,This number is also helpful, ty again . . .meaning the unique rewards they will be missing are the 39k and the 42k, the 2 backguards. And that assumes a player finished ALL THE OTHER AP. And also that no future AP will be added to allow them to get the 39k and 42k reward in the first place. You said it yourself above, the key word is "yet", which makes removing them pointless in the first place.They would also be missing a title and four weapon skins. And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap. This is how it affects everyone that does not have access to the lost content. And, again, the yet only works if future unique rewards are not introduced. If you see that as a solution, introducing the solution now by removing the unique rewards should be desirable. Now that you have provided numbers that indicate both armor sets have been completed, I am even more inclined to believe this is a great time to make the change . . .Do you count pinnacle skins as "missing" because everyone has access to them at very low AP counts. It's their choice which one to pick.Yes, and you get more choices as you go along. Having six choices is four more than having two . . .

AP is how the rewards are unlocked. Missing ap affects how many rewards are unlocked . . .

AP is how rewards are unlocked yes. Someone that has 35k AP to go, cannot complain that they are missing 5k AP, get the 35k first and then you can complain all you want.Well, first off, there is no ap that has that requirement. Nowhere is anyone forced to do ap they don't want to do before they can do the ap they do want to do. Second, if you're acknowledging that players who do meet your criteria are affected, you are acknowledging the problem . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap.

That assumes a player that has all that AP to acquire but doesn't, will acquire the missing ones. There is zero evidence to support that.

Yes, and you get more choices as you go along.

It's highly unlikely, and unreasonable, to have part of a reward acquired in one way, then mid way through change it.

You will have your answer by the developers once one player reaches 43k. At that point the 45k reward will become viewable. If Arenanet wants to do something about the unique rewards they won't add anything there. I have a feeling that they will, although I'm not sure what. My personal preference would be a radiant/hellfire infusion, to upgrade the looks of the current skins which were created a very long time ago and are missing in quality.

But I'll postpone responding here until that time comes, it should take 2 episodes at best, maybe 1 depending on how many AP they provide, and what other AP, outside episodes, they add. The Visions of the Past should provide new AP too, and the upcoming early game revamp will bring new AP as well. I can't wait to see that 45k reward!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake.It's limited availability of story content that is an acknowledged mistake. Not the limited availability of APs from that content. In fact, seeing as Anet has made one achievement no longer obtainable as recently as last month (and didn't bother to address that issue in other content where they could have easily done that - like with reinstated Queen's Pavillon and Gauntlet achievements), we can be quite sure they do not consider that one to be a mistake at all.

If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .The only consequence of the admitted mistake is lost access to LS1 story.

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here:
and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?

Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . ."freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did *
not
work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.

Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other,
similar
cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?

You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources? Hint: it's nowhere close to the 5900 amount that is being thrown about. Most of those APs
weren't
directly part of the story, while also requiring a lot of effort and high investment in order to obtain them. So high, that, as far as i know, not even the top leaderboard player has
all
of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.

This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they
would
get it. And most would
not
.

As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).

If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

But it doesn't affect them.A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.No. Anyone missing lost content is as much APs behind as they would have obtained from that content if it would be available, nothing more. For a vast majority of players that would be probably around 100-200 AP behind total from all the no longer available achievements (and even that might be overstating it - most of the APs were
not
from the story - they were from other things that happened alongside the story, and required well above average investment of time and effort to obtain).Don't assume players would obtain all APs from it, or even a large part of it, because that simply isn't true.

If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.

Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that were active then, but still ignored the APs.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:And if you change that 36,700 number to any lower number, you will find around six unique rewards covered by the missing ap.

That assumes a player that has all that AP to acquire but doesn't, will acquire the missing ones. There is zero evidence to support that.No, it just assumes they'll have access to it . . .

Yes, and you get more choices as you go along.

It's highly unlikely, and unreasonable, to have part of a reward acquired in one way, then mid way through change it.I don't think so . . .You will have your answer by the developers once one player reaches 43k. At that point the 45k reward will become viewable. If Arenanet wants to do something about the unique rewards they won't add anything there. I have a feeling that they will, although I'm not sure what. My personal preference would be a radiant/hellfire infusion, to upgrade the looks of the current skins which were created a very long time ago and are missing in quality.I would be very surprised if they actually did anything about this problem. I would be less surprised, but still very surprised, if they added a new reward at 45k. I would also be a little disappointed . . .But I'll postpone responding here until that time comes, it should take 2 episodes at best, maybe 1 depending on how many AP they provide, and what other AP, outside episodes, they add. The Visions of the Past should provide new AP too, and the upcoming early game revamp will bring new AP as well. I can't wait to see that 45k reward!That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

@Gop.8713 said:I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake.It's limited availability of
story
content that is an acknowledged mistake. Not the limited availability of APs from that content. In fact, seeing as Anet has made one achievement no longer obtainable as recently as last month (and didn't bother to address that issue in other content where they could have easily done that - like with reinstated Queen's Pavillon and Gauntlet achievements), we can be quite sure they do
not
consider that one to be a mistake at all.

If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .The only consequence of the admitted mistake is lost access to LS1
story
.

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:For anyone that thinks the problem exists in the present, they can go here:
and figure out that more AP is coming in the future.They can also see that more rewards are coming in the future, which will tell them that the additional ap will do nothing to solve the problem, until the rewards stop . . .You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . ."freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did *
not
work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other,
similar
cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?More than they have now . . .Hint: it's nowhere close to the 5900 amount that is being thrown about. Most of those APs
weren't
directly part of the story, while also requiring a lot of effort and high investment in order to obtain them. So high, that, as far as i know, not even the top leaderboard player has
all
of them.

@Gop.8713 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".Where did I say that . . ?I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they
would
get it. And most would
not
.They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .

If you are now accepting that the lost ap is affecting those players, great, one less thing . . .

But it doesn't affect them.A player might indeed go for Season 1 AP without first finishing all other AP, that doesn't mean they are affected by your so called "problem" of not getting rewards. If they want the rewards, they can go for all the other AP instead. So they aren't affected by your problem of missing rewards due to missing AP. You are for some reason combining the two, but they are completely separate.They are not. Anyone missing lost content is around half a dozen rewards behind where they would be if they had the ap from that content.No. Anyone missing lost content is as much APs behind as they would have obtained from that content if it would be available, nothing more. For a vast majority of players that would be probably around 100-200 AP behind total from all the no longer available achievements (and even that might be overstating it - most of the APs were
not
from the story - they were from other things that happened alongside the story, and required well above average investment of time and effort to obtain).Don't assume players would obtain all APs from it, or even a large part of it, because that simply isn't true.Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that
were
active then, but still ignored the APs.So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Gop.8713 said:That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

So the second back is not yet attainable. Generally, ap rewards have been datamined long before they were viewable in the available portion of the ap track on the hero panel. If they choose to introduce some additional reward at 45k, I doubt we would have to wait for a player to be able to view it in game before we could see it . . .

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm sitting at just over 38k and my wife is a few hundred points higher than I am. I do agree that not having LS 1 story is a disadvantage. There are other retired achievements as well. > @"Daddicus.6128" said:

I was very sad when I learned that nobody has attained a full set (including back item) of radiant (or hellfire) armor. I thought I just didn't play enough (although, one would think averaging almost 5 hours a day for the life of the game SHOULD be enough).

Apparently, ANet intended this game to live 10 years or more, because STILL nobody has made it to 39,000.

I still play, but I've lost all hope of every getting my goal of full radiant armor. If the gods of the game can't do it, what hope have I?

I'd definitely doable. My wife is approaching 39k right now and I've broken 38k, so it can happen, particularly if you have the Seaosn 1 stuff done. Since I don't do raid achievements, that's one other thing I don't have. I do however have some PvP and WvW achievements.

It's a long term goal. It's always been a long term goal. I'll definitely get to the back piece at least, and I'm by no means a "god of the game". I guess the question is how much of your life do you really want to devote to getting achievements.

I do think it sucks that Season 1 isn't available anymore for new players, though. Also 500 of my points come from doing content in Guild Wars 1 (which you can still get but it's a slog).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:That's 2500 ap away, according to the numbers you provided. I don't feel like we're getting 1,250 new ap per ep, are we? Even with the additional ap in between with festivals and whatnot, that seems ambitious . . .

A player that has above 42.5k AP will be able to see the 43k, 43.5k, 44k, 44.5k and 45k reward chests so I was a bit wrong, they don't need to reach 43k to see the 45k reward, 42.5k is enough. The top player at the moment has 41881, which means they'll need to acquire 619 more AP to see that reward. So based on how many they are missing, it's about 2 to 3 episodes but Visions of the Past should provide achievements and that's not an episode. The starting game revamp will provide some, there is Super Adventure Box coming back in April too so I think at about May (??? Start game revamp + Visions of the Past + Episode 3 + Super Adventure Box + Episode 4 ???) the top player will be able to hover their mouse over the 45k reward chest and see what's coming.

So the second back is not yet attainable. Generally, ap rewards have been datamined long before they were viewable in the available portion of the ap track on the hero panel. If they choose to introduce some additional reward at 45k, I doubt we would have to wait for a player to be able to view it in game before we could see it . . .

The first EU player to get to 39k and unlock the first backguard did so in January 10, 2019. The actual backguard skins were added to the game in November 10, 2015... so it took the top player 3 years and 2 months to unlock the first one. I think they learned their lesson and will reveal the next step when at least one player is close to seeing it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?

Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . ."freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did *
not
work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .This is a direct consequence of your fix. Basically, you want to remove the rewards from AP track - this means, any work someone put into reward track would no longer count for obtaining them. That's obviously very bad for those that are already very close to getting them - their 7 years of hard work would go to waste. Consequently, that's also a very good news for many people that did
not
work on their APs for the last 7 years, because they would now be able to obtain those rewards without that effort.We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?

Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other,
similar
cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?If they did, then yes, they probably would have done the same for LS1, but that's a tiny minority of all players.
Very
tiny minority.

You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?More than they have now . . .Yes, but would those 50 Ap more matter?

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".Where did I say that . . ?Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that
everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire
"Remember, that this new system would
not
count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).

I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?

This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they
would
get it. And most would
not
.They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .The population of the game at that time was around 4 million players. That's how many players "had the opportunity". The amount of players that would go for anything above the easiest of the missing achieves (of whose there wasn't many) is far, far smaller. Seriously, the whole population of the game now likely is below 500k, and of those the number of people that do achieves to the point where it actually matter is a small fraction of that.So, no, you are factually wrong here.

As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .The
vast majority
got maybe 100 AP or less out of those 5900. Why do you think that the situation would be different now? Especially seeing, as most of the people you're talking about are
the very same people
.

Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .What i don't acknowledge is that they are disadvantaged enough to even think about implementing your solution. Especially considering how bad that solution is.

If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.

Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that
were
active then, but still ignored the APs.So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .No. I acknowledged that most players then didn't want to put an effort into obtaining those APs. How did you got from that to "they got damaged and need help" i have no idea.And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:You mean the "problem" of having to work on that reward you want for some time still, instead of getting it "right now, gimme gimme"?The proposed solution does not accelerate the arrival of any rewards. Why would anyone pretend otherwise, absent some other motive . . ?It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?Nor would it . . .

Also, who are these freeloaders you've mentioned? They are new to the discussion . . ."freeloaders" as, every person that in your solution would obtain these rewards you want removed from AP track even though they did *
not
work for them. Because that's what your "fix" is all about - taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and giving them to those that didn't.This is a tremendous leap from anything I've said. Pls quote where you obtained this impression so that I may disabuse you of it . . .This is a direct consequence of your fix. Basically, you want to remove the rewards from AP track - this means, any work someone put into reward track would no longer count for obtaining them. That's obviously very bad for those that are already very close to getting them - their 7 years of hard work would go to waste. Consequently, that's also a very good news for many people that did
not
work on their APs for the last 7 years, because they would now be able to obtain those rewards without that effort.We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.no . . .How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .

Any of the stories and all the stories is completely different. You assume that a player that finished one of the stories would finish the story of S1,And you assume that a player with access to LS1 would only choose to do it after every other ap in the game has been acquired.No, he assumes that a player would treat LS1 the same way he treats other,
similar
cases. If someone didn't do achievements for most of LS chapters, why would you think he'd do them for LS1?And if they did, why wouldn't they . . ?If they did, then yes, they probably would have done the same for LS1, but that's a tiny minority of all players.
Very
tiny minority.

You're assuming again that players will have all ap from all sources, when the reality is most players only gather their ap incidentally as they move along through the content . . .Bingo. How many of those APs do you think players might have obtained from all those no longer available sources?More than they have now . . .Yes, but would those 50 Ap more matter?Yes . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".Where did I say that . . ?Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that
everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire
"Remember, that this new system would
not
count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .This is not true. Any missing cheeve affects all players who do not have it. Bc if it was available, they could get it.No, it doesn't affect them if they could get it - only if they
would
get it. And most would
not
.They are affected either way, but if you insist on caring only about those who would, that's fine too, still a larger population than those who had the opportunity . . .The population of the game at that time was around 4 million players. That's how many players "had the opportunity". The amount of players that would go for anything above the easiest of the missing achieves (of whose there wasn't many) is far, far smaller. Seriously, the whole population of the game now likely is below 500k, and of those the number of people that do achieves to the point where it actually matter is a small fraction of that.So, no, you are factually wrong here.So you acknowledge that players have been harmed, you just don't care about them bc there aren't more of them . . .As it is not, they cannot. If your point is that not all of them would choose to participate in the lost content, that is true. But the evidence says the vast majority would . . .On the contrary, the evidence shows that the vast majority wouldn't bother to obtain those lost APs at all. In fact, vast majority that could have obtained it then didn't (hint: the game had around 3-4 million of active players then. And yet, most of them didn't get those achieves).But the vast majority got some of those cheeves. It's not an all or nothing proposition . . .The
vast majority
got maybe 100 AP or less out of those 5900. Why do you think that the situation would be different now? Especially seeing, as most of the people you're talking about are
the very same people
.You just claimed the player population has been reduced threefold, but most of the players now playing were playing seven years ago? That would be an unfortunate reality, if it were true . . .Don't select numbers arbitrarily. If you acknowledge players without access to the lost content are disadvantaged, as you do here, that is sufficient cause for a remedy . . .What i don't acknowledge is that they are disadvantaged enough to even think about implementing your solution. Especially considering how bad that solution is.While I feel your apathy towards the affected players and your willful ignorance of the proposed solution is at fault . . .If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .Again, to reiterate the point you keep missing: At that point in history, the game had around 3-4 million of active players. Only a very small fraction of those bothered to get more than a handful of APs from the LS1 story and surrounding events - even with full knowledge of how those APs won't be available later. Many of the people you want to help come, in fact, from that very group of players that
were
active then, but still ignored the APs.So you acknowledge that players were damaged and need help. Great. Let's find a remedy . . .No. I acknowledged that most players then didn't want to put an effort into obtaining those APs. How did you got from that to "they got damaged and need help" i have no idea.If 'most' players didn't, some did. That would remain true after the content was lost . . .And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"TheQuickFox.3826" said:We REALLY need a solution for all those players who missed Living World season 1 and its achievements.

Also, I would still love to see ArenaNet's Long-term plans for achievement rewards. I keep wondering for instance what the path is to 60,000, if there ultimately will be more rewards for achievement ranks.

I also wonder why the recent expansion and living world releases seem to be a bit lacking in AP rewards. Especailly when you compare it to the amount of AP in LW Season 1 and 2 as well as temporary festivals. Players who miss the festivals really will get a hard time to reach the upper levels, as well as players who missed Season 1.

I agree with this and I have been playing since launch and have all the living story season 1 achievements completed. I had fun getting those achievements and would not mind at all if Arena Net retroactively gave players unattainable points some how

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?Nor would it . . .Please, do tell me how it would
not
do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.

We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.no . . .Again, how it
doesn't
do that?

How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".Where did I say that . . ?Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that
everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire
"Remember, that this new system would
not
count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.

I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?

So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?

If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .The only workable solution would be to reintroduce LS1 (and at least some of the missing achieves) in some form. I don't believe there exists any "simple" and "easy" solution that would not cause more problems it might solve, however. Your "fix" definitely
doesn't
meet those standarts.

And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .It may seem like this to you because you keep handwaving all the negative effects and claim that they will be solved somehow (but without any clear vision about how that solution should like). The only reason why this solution might be "delightful" to you is because you, personally, simply do not care about the negative effects it will inflict on
other
players.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it
was
maintenance mode, of course.

It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

Not particularly relevant to my point. Depriving others of the results of their decisions is a bad thing IMO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Game of Bones.8975 said:If a person completed all AP quests to date (minus the Daily Achievements), what is the max number?

There are 27504 available achievements points registered on the API, so that's the max number. With the 15k daily ones we reach the total of 42504

Is the 60K there to allow for future Achievements?

The 60k reward was datamined a very long time ago and it's a title. When the game was released we had a very limited amount of achievement rewards, it went only up to ~20k. Then in November 2015 they added rewards up to 42k even though it took the top player up to January 2019 to unlock the first backguard (at 39k) so they ARE future rewards.

I do wish the skins (weapons or armor) would come with every 500 AP earned.

Well that would mean they'd have to add a LOT more rewards.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?Nor would it . . .Please, do tell me how it would
not
do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.no . . .Again, how it
doesn't
do that?Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.Okay :)

@Gop.8713 said:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:You proposed to remove the unique rewards and add them somewhere else?I proposed that we remove the unique rewards no one has acquired yet, so that players disadvantaged by erroneously lost content could catch up. I did not suggest anyone be 'given' anything for less than what anyone else had to do. I then pointed out that if those as-yet unlocked rewards were important to ppl, they could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire . . .Notice, how some of the players have already put a lot of work into obtaining said rewards, while others didn't put any. Yet you propose to treat them exactly the same. And you call that "equity".Where did I say that . . ?Where you said that these rewards "could be reintroduced into some other, equitable, reward system that
everyone would also have to do the same work to acquire
"Remember, that this new system would
not
count all the past work (because if it did it would have to count all the work put into LS1, and other now missing content, and then we'd be back to point zero).Why do you believe this? We could easily devise a solution that accounts for the existing ap track while accounting for the lost content. Removed rewards could be barred until existing rewards are acquired, for example. I'm not really sure how it could work otherwise, as players would be unlocking rewards farther along the track than they'd already accomplished . . .Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.I just did . . .I mean, in your solution, someone that starts the game today and someone at the top of AP leaderboard would need to put the same amount of effort (starting now) to obtain the items. Which ignores the "small" and "inconsequential" fact, that the latter has already worked on it (and worked very, very hard) for
7 years
. Apparently all that work in your eyes is not worth anything.No, someone who starts today would go through the same process everyone else went through, without the disadvantage of the lost content . . .But "everyone else" went through the process of obtaining achievements, some of whose came from that lost content. And you specifically want to disassociate these rewards from that system.Yes, bc that lost content is lost. Unfairly disadvantaging the vast majority of players . . .So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .

If they would have done less than all of the content, they are fewer rewards behind, but if they had done any of the content, they are behind by that much . . .Which would not be very much. Frankly, not even enough for one
minor
reward chest.There is no way to know the severity of each player's injury. Best to just find a solution that addresses everyone equitably . . .Your "solution" does not address everyone equitably. It doesn;t affect a huge majority of players, helps some a little bit, helps others more (but not in a way you think it does - specifically, it opens a way for some to get rewards even though they never bothered to put any effort into obtaining them), and hurts others.It really does. But if you feel it doesn't, do better . . .The only workable solution would be to reintroduce LS1 (and at least some of the missing achieves) in some form. I don't believe there exists any "simple" and "easy" solution that would not cause more problems it might solve, however. Your "fix" definitely
doesn't
meet those standarts.Reintroducing LS1 would be vastly preferable, but it is not a workable solution, unfortunately . . .And as for the remedy... if you want to find one, go ahead, So far you haven't found any that might actually work and do not cause bigger problems on its own however. Well, unless you're like that one american general that once said that "there's no problem that cannot be solved by way of carpet bombing".

I've created a solution with very few negative effects that completely solves the existing problem. Very few players would even notice the transition. It's delightful in every respect . . .It may seem like this to you because you keep handwaving all the negative effects and claim that they will be solved somehow (but without any clear vision about how that solution should like). The only reason why this solution might be "delightful" to you is because you, personally, simply do not care about the negative effects it will inflict on
other
players.If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .

@Gop.8713 said:

@Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:So, it is believed that ArenaNet will not be aware beforehand when the game will be going into maintenance mode or shutting down? That they won't address the issue at that time? Of course, it would only need be address if it
was
maintenance mode, of course.

It's too bad the Devs have never, ever spoken about any missing APs issues. I'm guessing they don't really find it concerning...at this point in time, as no player, missing APs or not, could attain all known rewards.

I think that this point is important. The game seems, to me at least, to be designed so that no player could attain all known rewards. It is not supposed to happen.

Some players chose to not pursue the (now) missing AP. Depriving people of the results of their decisions is not a good thing IMO.

I know it's a lot to read through at this point, but this has been addressed. The reason this problem is worth trying to solve is that the limited availability of the content is an acknowledged mistake. If it were possible to do so, the content would still be available, so addressing the consequences of that unavailability is appropriate . . .

Not particularly relevant to my point. Depriving others of the results of their decisions is a bad thing IMO.Well, if you're saying your point isn't relevant to the discussion, I guess there's really not much I can say about that, I admit :p
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Kinda curious, reading the posts, and eating popcorn, but y'all skipped right on by Vayne's take on this. Along with another poster who is very high.

Also, Gop, for those who have skipped the back and forth, what IS your exact, precise proposal to 'fix' the inequalities? I am also curious as to how missing festival points will be included in this solution? Or other removed achievements?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?Nor would it . . .Please, do tell me how it would
not
do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .I have already explained why i think that would be the case. If you think i am wrong, don;t keep saying that i am wrong - show us
why
. Meaning: you would need to present how exactly are the removed rewards going to be reintroduced, in such a way where our worries would be proven wrong. Don't just keep saying that "it's going to work out somehow" without ever sayinga nything more specific than that.And yes, your proposal
does
change the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, because it specifically removes some rewards from the curent system. No matter what other system you would use for reintroducing them, the amount of work needed for those rewards would
not
be the same. Why? Because there's no other system in game that would mirror the effort of the AP track perfectly, while at the same time taking in consideration work already done (or not done) on those rewards. And remember, your proposal is supposed to be really easy and cheap to implement, which means no new systems should need to be created for it.

We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.no . . .Again, how it
doesn't
do that?Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .Again, please, specify, how your proposal would reintroduce those rewards while taking in consideration work already done (and not done) on them by different people. Do not jump around the issue, say it to us clearly. Unless, of course, you yourself have no idea how it would work.

How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.Okay :)Glad that you agreee that your "fix" is missing a core part without which it cannot work well.

Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.I just did . . .Then tell us what that solution you devised is. We're still missing like half of your explanation about how this system of yours is going to work. The critical part, by the way.

So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .So, depriving players of the results of their hard work is fine by you. Check.

So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .Okay, then, if it's not true, tell us how exactly the birthday rewards, or rewards tied to future releases, differentiate between "players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years", and "those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it"? Because i sure would like to know...

If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .But you
didn't
really consider those consequences, and
didn't
include any measures to mitigate them. Or if you did, you never told us what exactly those measures are.

TL/DR;If you want to make a suggestion, you need to present it fully and explain why you think is going to work. Don't try to omit the problem parts of it, and confound that issue by trying to make it as if we're the people that need to explain to you how the parts you didn't describe won't work as you claim they will. The burden of explaining how they will do what you say they will is on you, not on us.

Because, at this moment, your "explanation" still has that big question mark at the step before before the "profit!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Gop.8713 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:It switches the mode of acquisition away from AP track to something else. What exactly that "something else" should be to
not
decrease the time most players would be able to obtain those rewards, seeing as most players are still like 7 years of hard work away from the backpacks?Nor would it . . .Please, do tell me how it would
not
do it. Specifics, please, not "it would not do it because it would not do it". Without that part your "fix" is glaringly incomplete and definitely not ready to be introduced as a serious suggestion.I think you'd need to explain how it would. Nothing about my proposal changes the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, other than closing the gap created by the missing content . . .I have already explained why i think that would be the case. If you think i am wrong, don;t keep saying that i am wrong - show us
why
. Meaning: you would need to present how exactly are the removed rewards going to be reintroduced, in such a way where our worries would be proven wrong. Don't just keep saying that "it's going to work out somehow" without ever sayinga nything more specific than that.And yes, your proposal
does
change the amount of time it would take anyone to get anything, because it specifically removes some rewards from the curent system. No matter what other system you would use for reintroducing them, the amount of work needed for those rewards would
not
be the same. Why? Because there's no other system in game that would mirror the effort of the AP track perfectly, while at the same time taking in consideration work already done (or not done) on those rewards. And remember, your proposal is supposed to be really easy and cheap to implement, which means no new systems should need to be created for it.

We have a group of people that worked hard for those rewards. We also have a group of people that didn't bother to put even the slightest effort into it so far. Your "fix" makes both groups equal.no . . .Again, how it
doesn't
do that?Again, how does it? There's just nothing to support your claim . . .Again, please, specify, how your proposal would reintroduce those rewards while taking in consideration work already done (and not done) on them by different people. Do not jump around the issue, say it to us clearly. Unless, of course, you yourself have no idea how it would work.

How else do you think i can interpret your suggestion as not the intention of taking away rewards from those that worked for them, and offering help in getting them to those that didn't?by taking it as it is stated, rather than how you have twisted it . . .You have stated nothing about that part of your suggestion beyond some handwaving and claiming that it will magically work somehow - but in a way you are unable to describe.Okay :)Glad that you agreee that your "fix" is missing a core part without which it cannot work well.It's just frustrating to discover you've been raging against something all this time without bothering to understand it first . . .Then devise such a solution. Don't claim though that it definitely exists, while refusing to mention any specifics, because at the moment i just don't see how it could be done.I just did . . .Then tell us what that solution you devised is. We're still missing like half of your explanation about how this system of yours is going to work. The critical part, by the way.

So, basically, you want to deprive the players that put work into that content of the just rewards for that work. Don;t you think that's also extremely unfair?No, I do not believe repairing the consequences of the error is unfair . . .So, depriving players of the results of their hard work is fine by you. Check.I'm not the one arguing in favor of locking players out of rewards . . .

So, how exactly are you going to achieve your goal
without
running into the problem i have pointed out? Without creating a completely new system, by the way, becaus you already said that your "fix" is supposed to be easy and cheap, and creating a new rewards system would be anything but that.So, what of the currently existing systems are you going to use for those removed rewards?I've already suggested birthday rewards, as loyalty rewards are something other posters expressed an interest in. Prior to that I would have preferred rewards directly tied to future releases, similar to meta rewards now . . .None of those solutions differentiate between players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years, and those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it. Care to comment why you think that is fine?Primarily bc It just isn't true . . .Okay, then, if it's not true, tell us how exactly the birthday rewards, or rewards tied to future releases, differentiate between "players that worked for those rewards for the last 7 years", and "those that stopped playing on the first day, and just relogged yesterday, without bothering to put even one hour of work into it"? Because i sure would like to know...It's just impossible to understand this without knowing how you came to this conclusion, as it wasn't from anything I've said. All I've ever proposed is that everyone be required to do the same thing to get the same rewards. I'm not trying to maintain the distinction between players who had access to the lost content and those who did not . . .If that were true I wouldn't have considered those consequences and included measures to mitigate them, in much the same way that you ignore the consequences of the existing situation . . .But you
didn't
really consider those consequences, and
didn't
include any measures to mitigate them. Or if you did, you never told us what exactly those measures are.

TL/DR;If you want to make a suggestion, you need to present it fully and explain why you think is going to work. Don't try to omit the problem parts of it, and confound that issue by trying to make it as if we're the people that need to explain to you how the parts you didn't describe won't work as you claim they will. The burden of explaining how they will do what you say they will is on you, not on us.

Because, at this moment, your "explanation" still has that big question mark at the step before before the "profit!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Going to request it again: what is your solution? I actually thought of something, but I'm not sure I like it: put the rewards all in one chunk at the highest ap currently obtainable. I have scrolled past the exact number, but add dailies, and every single(and I do mean every single) achievement currently available in game, and then award all the pieces of the sets currently available. That would, I think someone said, allow something like 86 folks to get them? EDIT: 86 folks would immediately get them, I mean. Everyone else would still have to work for more points).

I would then add things to replace the missing ones at future steps. The question would be whether those would be things already available in game, kinda(infusion box, with a choice of infusions?) New infusion?

That way those who have actually worked for the rewards would get them, and no one would be locked OUT of getting them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Etria.3642" said:I would then add things to replace the missing ones at future steps.

Currently there is only the backguards that will be "missing". If you allow players to get the backguards at a lower point and then add future rewards after them, wouldn't that lead you back to where you started?

That way those who have actually worked for the rewards would get them, and no one would be locked OUT of getting them.

As long as the game doesn't die and provides new AP, nobody is actually locked out of getting them. Remember the backguards were added in 2015 and were obtained in 2019 (the first) and the second one is obtainable given the available AP total, top player is almost there.

As I said earlier, in a few releases the top player will see the 45k reward and we'll know of Anet's plan (if any)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Gop.8713" said:It's just impossible to understand this without knowing how you came to this conclusion, as it wasn't from anything I've said. All I've ever proposed is that everyone be required to do the same thing to get the same rewards. I'm not trying to maintain the distinction between players who had access to the lost content and those who did not . . .It's not about distinction between players that had access to the lost content, and those who did not. It's about not differentiating between those that already put some work into obtaining those rewards, and those that didn't. I'm not saying that you did that intentionally, mind you, but it's nevertheless a consequence of your solution.

In your solution, someone that was at 35k AP when your fix went in will need to work exactly hard to obtain the removed rewards as someone that had 1 AP. All that past work put into obtaining those 35k AP would be ignored as far as those rewards are concerned. And unless the new method would require another 7 years of hard work on the level similar to obtaining those ~40k APs (or whatever AP cutoff value you would use for unique reward removal), the 1 AP player would be able to obtain it far easier than it's possible currently.

And while the second result (low AP players obtaining another, possibly easier path to rewards) could potentially be argued for, the first result (veteran players having all their work invalidated) is definitely not fair and should never be allowed to happen.

And please, don't try to tell me that "this wouldn't happen" unless you're ready to supply an actual proposal of how those rewards would be redistributed that takes this into consideration (notice, that neither the "birthday presents", nor the "future content rewards" one does that - both of those completely ignore any past work someone might have done for those rewards already).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...