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Balance Patch Preview - PvP


Cal Cohen.2358

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"kmfart.7480" said:Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as
"Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before"
. That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

PvP is stale, change is good.I think there is alot of things that are overnerfed, and alot of things that are not nerfed that should be.but at the very least there is going to be something new.If I was warrior main I would be looking forward to playing with hammer and rifle, they propably wont be any good but its something new to try.20might signet looks interesting too. Hopefully we wont end up with same meta or bunker meta, and if we do lets hope devs will be fast to act.

There goes your credibility, hammer and rifle are going to be trash. Sorry you're so bad that you think evade spamming is healthy for the game, and that you're the only one having trouble with warrior Axe 1. Real pathetic, ANET balancing around trash players with a reaction time of a turtle.

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One has to understand the logic.... I thought anet reached their level of incapacity by making Stability aka Stand your Ground stackable.

Now you want to reduce powercreep and INCREASE the CD of Stability?

Just one dude on this universe - tell me the point? Why are you - only after 6years finally - reducing powercreep and then in the same move nerfing the most important buff in WvW to make people "feel" the reduced powercreep.

You want peole to hit like noodles and stay in stuns/knockdowns etc.... Nice gameplay.

Years after releasing one of the best MMOs ever - being in maintenance mode - we still are waiting for competent changes. So finally after losing even the last loyal fans of the Gamemode you touch powercreep and in the same time you remove the basis of fun, long, interesting and adrenaline filled fights - Stability.

It's funny that no one on anet wonders "why the hell all the people quit the game? What are we doing wrong? Was giving mounts a 1shot skill in wvw a good idea? Was removing stab basically a good idea? Was Desert Borderlands a good idea?"

Just hire finally some people who are competent in their jobs, so you can maybe earn money again with this game.

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@tunococman.7324 said:

@"kmfart.7480" said:Profession combat skills arent meant to be perfectly balanced across all classes, but "the meta skill balance" is more about the skill balance helping to drive interesting combat encounters that have many different variables in play. A perfect balance would be boring, and prolly also lead to alot of fights ending in another boring "draw".

While all these nerfs can be negatively summed up as
"Everything you do in Tyria.. now means even less than before"
. That is not a good thing we all agree, but I guess we will have to wait and see how it actually works in practice, before drawing such a conclusion. I just hope we dont end up with a "mass exodus" scenario, because theres always a certain percentage of the playerbase that never returns.

I also hope these upcoming changes are done with great care, & with a multitude of devs agreeing with it, & that it (surprisingly) turns out as fun. "Fun" is the keyword here, and if its not more fun, then we prolly are better off with keeping the "un-balance" roughly where it is.

PvP is stale, change is good.I think there is alot of things that are overnerfed, and alot of things that are not nerfed that should be.but at the very least there is going to be something new.If I was warrior main I would be looking forward to playing with hammer and rifle, they propably wont be any good but its something new to try.20might signet looks interesting too. Hopefully we wont end up with same meta or bunker meta, and if we do lets hope devs will be fast to act.

There goes your credibility, hammer and rifle are going to be trash. Sorry you're so bad that you think evade spamming is healthy for the game, and that you're the only one having trouble with warrior Axe 1. Real pathetic, ANET balancing around trash players with a reaction time of a turtle.

First of all, learn to read and comprehend what you read before you post.sec of all, axe chain from warrior deals as MORE damage then soul spiral from reaper.

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@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:get rid of the might stacks from mantra of pain... a power mes with full might and full vuln is a huge buff to the skill. you're making it 100% more broke.Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /sWhat is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

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@"Odik.4587" said:Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /sWhat is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

with the trait, the only thing that will be nerfed on gs is the auto.

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Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes

So what's supposed to be the point of Mirages after this change? A class that was build around the idea of evading (aka a Mirage) get's one less dodge than all the other classes??

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@"Odik.4587" said:Ye, so broke, nerfed all phantasms/weapon skills and shatter by 33%. A class with worst sustained damage, good job I'd say /sWhat is "broken" (not in a good sense lmao) is chrono(its not just useless but its clunky as hell even in pve)/onedodgeman xD. (mantra face req. is dumb).

with the trait, the only thing that will be nerfed on gs is the auto.Slap yourself and read patchnotes again. Especially about MoP.

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@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@Odik.4587 said:Slap yourself and read patchnotes again. Especially about MoP.

you're the one that needs to read it again. shatter isn't nerfed 33% lol.Thats average for most of classes, shoulda mention it was 13/20/20 exclusively? See how much MoP damage was nerfed ?It would be actually good if at least one build would be playble since mirage and chrono arent comign back anymore .But yes, they should have nerfed might stacks ~6.
Might
be be needed now :joy:

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Neil.3825 said:Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.My 2 cents.

Fair idea.

Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable).

With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

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@Neil.3825 said:Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.My 2 cents.

I'd rather have Anet give Mirage two regular dodges and make Mirage Cloak only accessible via those mirrors.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Neil.3825 said:Just thinking about the mirage nerf. Maybe you can add 50 endurance on Dune Cloak ?No more infinite horizon and double dodge combo, no more elusive mind and double dodge combo and an option avable for mirage to have 2 dodge but at a cost.My 2 cents.

I'd rather have Anet give Mirage two regular dodges and make Mirage Cloak only accessible via those mirrors.

This makes far more sense to me than removing a dodge which game wide save for DD is set at 2.

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@bravan.3876 said:Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

Mind restating/requoting what those reasons are? I believe you've done this before, but I have no idea what thread or page.The only thing I want is for mirage in its current state is what you mention below. How we get there is up for debate. If this dodge nerf isn't it, then communicate what is.

When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable). With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

Let's assume this is correct.What are we looking for then, if it isn't making people pick Dune Cloak for dodges so they can play axe, removing dodge while stunned from Infinite horizon and giving it to EM, or adding vigor uptime to a GM that isnt IH so that they can dodge more frequently if they don't commit to burst?

Any solution that fixes the current issue with Mirage is debatable.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@bravan.3876 said:Makes no sense at all for several already mentioned reasons. Even more considering Dune Cloak is less skillful and active as a dodgetrait then IH when ambsuhes are designed well. You just try to be generous on a low reward trait to justify an overnerf and the deletion of skill ceiling at other places of the spec.

Mind restating/requoting what those reasons are? I believe you've done this before, but I have no idea what thread or page.The only thing I want is for mirage in its current state is what you mention below. How we get there is up for debate. If this dodge nerf isn't it, then communicate what is.

When your goal is to create a viable but less op and more skilled/ less noobfriendly Mirage meta then the one dodge change is nothing you shoud vote for because it does quite the opposite. If anything will be viable on Mirage after that change you can be sure it will be more passive, more braindead and most likely more or at least as annoying to fight as the current meta Condimirage build. Same will count for replacing core Mesmer builds in the case Mirage will not be played. So all what the one dodge change does, is deleting skillful and active power Mirage builds from the game while Condimirage still stays passive and noobfriendly, with more dodge on cd spam with even less incentives (and per se no ability anymore) for active, reactive and tactical pure offensive dodges while having a higher need of specing into passive and non reactive facetank sustain (from Chaosline or Inspiration) to compensate the overnerf in active and reactive dodge sustain (ofc only in case it still will be viable). With other words: Voting for the one dodge change only makes sense when you hope that Mirage will dissapear completely because of this. In terms of making it more skilled/less noobcarry the change is completely nonsense.

Let's assume this is correct.What are we looking for then, if it isn't making people pick Dune Cloak for dodges so they can play axe, removing dodge while stunned from Infinite horizon and giving it to EM, or adding vigor uptime to a GM that isnt IH so that they can dodge more frequently if they don't commit to burst?

Any solution that fixes the current issue with Mirage is debatable.

@bravan.3876 said:The change to Mirage Cloak never was called a trade off from Anet side if you read closely. It just feels like one because the change literally does the same as an mechanical Anet trade off (deleting core mechanics, even more deleting a game/classwide basic mechanic of having at least 2 dodge available. The minimum of 2 dodges makes absolutely sense in terms of giving the player the ability of reactive dodge gameplay and skillful management of endurence reggen/vigor in a combat system like gw2 has. It makes no sense at all (no matter how strong the dodges of a class are) to limit dodge bar to only one dodge. On not a single class that one dodge change would make sense, but in particular not on classes/specs are build around doing more with dodges than just avoiding attacks (that is why Daredevil got more dodges and not less). So no matter if you call that change to Mirage an additional trade off (what you could because it just is doing the same, by deleting core mechanics) or if you just call it a normal nerf move doesn't matter, this change is totally unlogical, it removes skill ceiling and makes Mirage even more passive (making pure offensive dodges and for that tactical and active uses of ambushes/IH completely impossible, tactical deepneess and harder decisionmaking and the higehr opportunity costs in dodgemanagement are gone), completely contradicts the elite mechanic itself by overnerfing the resource it actually needs to even work, makes the spec unnecessary clunky (if not unplayable) and hurts in particular high skill ceiling and active power builds more while not rly adressing the root problems of passive Condimirage. Once again, if we even see any Mirage after patch than you can be sure they will be even more braindead and passive (forcing players to trait into passive chaosline sustain even more and maybe even in addition to inspiration to compensate the lose in active and reactive dodge defense) and it will be condi or hybrid because condistyle is still ez passive playstyle (even on core Mesmer, aka passive condi dmg from normal clone autoattacks). And that dear forum nerf complain camper is contradicting the goal of all of you to make Mirage less noobfriendly. You simply delete skillful builds from Mirage by overnerfing them for the sake of balancing Condimirage. So don't be surprised when you will not find any Mesmer with a skillful Powermirage build after patch anymore.

@bravan.3876 said:I guess Anet thinks they can rebalance with normal balance moves later if an elite get overnerfd by trade off (or a normal nerf that just act like a trade off by removing core mechanics as we have on Mirage), while not seeing that they sometimes even
remove fundamental core mechanics an elite needs to work or nerf in ways completely contradicting to the elite mechanic itself
, what does not make sense in the first place and often at least
removes skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexety and make specs unfun and clunky by touching basic (core or elite) mechanics
. Means all compensating buffs they might do in later patches at other place of the elite or the class as a whole will just lower the skill cap even more and will not help vs the artificial produced clunkyness of specs by acting versus their underlying core and elite mechanics in the first step. Follow up buffs in other places will not make up for previous nerfs at wrong places in terms of how fun and unclunky something is to play and in terms of lowered skill ceiling/ tactical deepness and mechanical complexity.

Here is a perfect example for that:I found a funny (actually more sad) suggestion somewhere on how to rebalance/ buff Mirage later if it turns out that the one dodge change is too hard of an overnerf. I cannot remember where i read/saw it, i watched too many videos and read too many posts about the upcoming patch to remember where i noticed what. But it got suggested, that they could introduce a new trait in Mirage line that gives Mirage endurance back when applying confusion. I thought i didn't get that right first. Sometimes i ask myself if ppl even do the effort to enable their brains before starting to tinker with balance or if the problem only is, that the Mesmer mechanics are too complicated/ complex and too high IQ for most ppl to understand. But at least use basic logic then or not?I mean you kill the whole spec first with all build diversity and inlcuding all high skill ceiling and active Powermirage builds (which do not cause any balance problem at all currently) with the one dodge change for the sake of balancing Condimirage and then the only problematic op build is the only one you will later compensate by a "get more dodges for applying condis" trait? Seriously? Means in the end Condimirage will be the only playstyle gets compensated for previous nerfs (while still being clunky) not even addressing the passive condi playstyle and for that will maybe be viable again, while being even more passive and dodge spammy because with only one dodge and higher endurance gain or -reggen you force the player to just spam dodges on cd (means as soon as the one endurance bar is full) while on the other side they will not have the ability to use dodge pure offensive for active and well timed tactical outplays (because in 90% of all cases you have no dodge rdy when a well timed moment for an pure offensive and tactical outplay dodge will be up). Well done, you just produced an even more braindead, passive and dodge spammy Condimirage than we currently have while you killed all already way more active and high skill ceiling power builds and with that all build diversity for Mirage for nothing. Condimirage will be meta again because the only playstyle that got compensated for previous nerfs but now with lower skill ceiling, less tactical deepness, less mechanical complexity but more clunky and still the same op balance problem with passive and spammy playstyle. If you add a trait will give more endurance for either confusion or vuln (so that Powermirage builds gets compensated too) you then have the same problem with Powermirage: more clunky more dodgespammy, less active. GG you created the same status we have now just on a higher clunky lvl with more passive, more dodgespammy and more noobfriedly and more toxic/ annoying playstyle but you now turned even Powermirage into that.

That is the big big point: you can't compensate deleted skill ceiling/ tactical deepness/ mechanical complexity with later buffs on other places. You might bring elites back into meta when overnerfed yes, but with even easier and more toxic and passive playstyle.

@bravan.3876 said:Mirage now is supposed to have only one dodge. It got said several times already why this is a bad plan, it downgrades skill ceiling in several aspects of the spec, it is contrary to the spec mechanic and it will make Mirage clunky if not completely unplayable in competitive modes, without even fixing the passive playstyle on Condimirage . Looking at Mesmer player and Mesmer hater this is a lose-lose situation just that Mesmer hater don't even have enough clue of the spec to even see that. Because in case Mirage will be playable in any form than you can be sure it will be even less skillful and even more lame then what we have today, probably some chaos-inspi-bunker kitten no one will like.

Other ideas for trade offs are mentioned i will not repeat. Another idea (even though not rly doable and probably too harsh) would be to lock out Mirage from traitlines like Chaos or Inspiration. That would be an insane restriction in build diversity but at least would not kill the whole playstyle and makes sense in the way that Mirage is supposed to have high active sustain from dodges and counterpressure from each dodge and for that it doesn't need more passive sustain (from Chaos) or less reactive/ more spammy sustain (from Inspiration) in addition because the synergy is too strong. The Mirage trade off would be that player cannot use Chaos or Inspiration in addition to Mirage traitline. I would never suggest such thing because it is crazy and better would be to just rework those 2 lines into something more active (Chaos) or less spammy/ more reactive (Inspiration). But even this crazy trade off i would prefer over the current plan. That shows how even more crazy that one dodge trade off idea is.

There are many more, i also do not quote all the posts where i explained why IH is not the issue what makes Condimirage op, and i also do not quote the posts of other player describing why Mirrors can not count as substitution for normal dodges. Just check Mirage trade off threads (there are a few on page 1 and 2).

In the end, from Anets PoV of trade off (the definition Anet seems to have for trade offs), Mirage already has one. Additonally Mirage also has several inherent costs for using ambush/IH elite mechanic. It also already is nerfed to a point where it has clearly less dodges available than most other classes (and dodges from Mirrors are not even equal to nomal dodges, they worth clearly less). There is per se no reason at all to nerf Mirages ability to dodge even more.

The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage. And the reason is not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed (or at least op in dmg application) while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).

Means all you need to do is

  1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and

  2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg (for example make scepter ambushes only have one or two hits with a balanced amount of confusion stacks, so it doesn't overperform with a traits like Sharper Images). To make a dodgetrait less passive which is only build around dmg and not about effects in the first place, you need to find the equilibrium between not adding a too weak dmg-reward on dodge (so it doesn't worth active offensive dodging only for a timed application of that weak effect, what we have with Dune Cloak atm) but also not too strong (so pure defensive dodging is enough to get good reward from the dodge trait as a pure passive side effect, what we have on Condi ambushes with IH atm). I would prefer the first way to rework condi ambushes to be more about effects and less about pure dmg. But a simple direct nerf of condi clone ambush dmg to a good equilibrium would do the job too, with less work from Anet. That would make Condimirage more balanced, less passive and more skilled instead making it less op by deleting every skill ceiling the IH/ambush mechanic can have and without deleting not overperforming and active and high skill ceiling Powermirage builds as a spin-off.

If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work (not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have at least a 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar. Mirage just gets double dumbed down by that because the whole mechanic gets contradicted and with that all inherent skill ceiling it has. It makes pure offensive and for that well timed, active and tactical dodges for ambush rewards impossible).

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Thanks for the reminder.Regarding this:

@bravan.3876 said:

-Snip-

The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage.

The core of that is true. I have no issue with power mirage as it stands.

And the reason is not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed (or at least op in dmg application) while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).
**Means all you need to do is

  1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and
  2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg.**

Fair.

If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work (not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have a least 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar.

Also fair. I don't mind taking condi damage from shatters. That's telegraphed and is predictable.

I wouldn't mind the above in lieu of the dodge nerf. If I played staff mirage and devs said -1 dodge, I'd just get angry and lean harder into the passive spam and blink away when anyone got close to me. I'd also probably never consider touching axe unless I found a burst combo that made it work like backstab thief does now. Bravan's right in that sense. I'm pretty sure not having 2 dodges is just going to make mirages not put themselves in a position where that drawback can be exploited, which will weed out bad players and make the good ones even more obnoxious/noncommittal.

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Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Thanks for the reminder.Regarding this:

-Snip-

The only playstyle on Mirgae that is just as braindead, noobfriendly and power creeped as every other meta build from other classes (so not even more problematic than other classes metabuilds) we currently have and for that problematic in terms of the new balance patch for less power creep is Condi/ Hybridmirage.

The core of that is true. I have no issue with power mirage as it stands.

And the reason is
not that Mirage can dodge while stunned or cover some casts with dodging, the reason is that condi ambushes are bad and too passive designed
(or at least op in dmg application)
while Mesmer barely has active ways of condiapplication through shatters anymore
. But it starts with normal autoattacks from clones on condi weapons already, they do insane amount of passive dmg, while clones autoattacks on power weapons do nearly zero dmg (core problem has nothing to do with Mirage).

**Means all you need to do is
  1. directly nerfing condi clones normal autoattacks to have zero dmg like power clone autoattacks and
  2. either rework condi ambushes (that they are less about only applying dmg but more about having effects the player can active and tactical work with and require a different timing then pure defensive dodges, means they force the player to go for pure offensive dodges to perfectly time an effect on the opponent, analogical to sword ambush) or at least directly nerf condi clone ambush dmg.**

Fair.

If you think Mirage needs a second trade off, just because it sounds good, then trade off suggestions like
limited clone cap are way better because they do not contradict the whole Mirage mechanic and do not overnerf the resource the elite even needs to work
(not to mention that it is a game-and classwide mechanic to have a least 2 dodges bar for good reasons, because having only one dodge would lower the skill ceiling in terms of dodge management on all classes by making it more spammy on cd, and it gets the more braindead spammy the more you add endurance reggen as compensation to a one dodge bar.

Also fair. I don't mind taking condi damage from shatters. That's telegraphed and is predictable.

I wouldn't mind the above in lieu of the dodge nerf. If I played staff mirage and devs said -1 dodge, I'd just get angry and lean harder into the passive spam and blink away when anyone got close to me. I'd also probably never consider touching axe unless I found a burst combo that made it work like backstab thief does now. Bravan's right in that sense. I'm pretty sure not having 2 dodges is just going to make mirages not put themselves in a position where that drawback can be exploited, which will weed out bad players and make the good ones even more obnoxious/noncommittal.

Hopefully this isn't obnoxious but if it is feel free to warn/infract:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

Some thoughts instead of the dodge nerf, potentially.

That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

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@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Cal Cohen.2358 said:we’re expecting to make further adjustments based on player feedback as well as our own internal review.

I think it would be beneficial to examine how the mirage playstyle works and balance based on that first. Right now the bulk of the damage delivered through the only variant they have that causes major issues is condi damage through clones, as Bravan states. The dodge shave doesn't get to the core of the issue. Can you for this iteration at least have all clones for mirage that do condition ticks on auto do no damage or have a tiny chance to do a single condi stack on auto instead of the dodge nerf?

That way fixing mirage doesnt break power variants.

:+1:

@"Psycoprophet.8107" said:Would clones doing dps along side mesmer make sense cuz their clones. Mirages can't damage cuz their mirages.Would it not make sense if mirages trade off was the damage being applied by the mirage player itself and the mirages move and attack randomly to confuse the player but do no damage, maybe provide some utility as well. This way if done right it's not a nerf or trade up but a trade off. Clones damage but mirages don't. Obviously some skill would have to be altered as well as damage increased on the mirage skills but it would be a trade off that makes sense and could still be made very viable if done right. I dont play a lot of mesmer so the idea may be very flawed. Losing a dodge is to much a trade off for any class, their evasiveness could have been slightly shaved in way less detrimental ways.

Hard to say anything to that idea, you would need to get way more detailed about how you imagine that spec to work. If you want clones to be main (and if i understand right, the ONLY) sourge of dmg and effects (like daze) you would need to add more command skill buttons, so everything the clones do becomes player controlled and for that active. You could use shatters for that, so instead of clone destoying for effects they become clone command buttons and Mirgae doesn't use the dodge button anymore for that. But that is a very big and time consuming rework i doubt will ever happen. Keep that idea for the next elite spec (if we ever will get other elite spec). I don't think it is necessary to rework Mirage that heavily. The "command clones via dodge button"-idea and IH/ambush mechanic is per se active and an interesting and skillful way of playing. All that is needed is that ambushes (from Mesmer itself and from clones) are well designed (preferable about applying effects you need to time well and different from pure defensive dodges over simple pure dmg application) and not op in dmg. You can fine adjust Mirage in so many ways to only nerf roots of balance problems (you just need to have some class knowledge to see that) but Anet decided to use the hammer for a big killing move and that in a very unlogical elite mechanic contradicting way, will not even make Condimirage less passive and less noobcarry.

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