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Thief permastealth is nerfed in this upcoming patch


flyingplanet.6912

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So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

I dunno maybe use your dodge to actually dodge damage, like thieves keep telling everyone to use, instead of dodging for stealth. There are other defense mechanics in the game, there's classes that actually have to play without stealth and avoid damage. Traitlines can easily be rewritten, they already did it to guards and warriors necros in the past year, necros even got a new mechanic out of it. But I suppose thieves play in stealth so much and can easily avoid dealing with other stealth they really wouldn't give two figs how annoyingly broken the whole mechanic is to the rest of the game.

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@Crackmonster.2790 said:Honestly, the ideal class design would be that the stealth classes had not the biggest burst damages, and the classes who you could see coming from far away where the ones with the big hammer. It doesn't make sense to give enormous hits to classes that can do it from stealth and disappear right after.

Just last night i was hit for 18k insta death from someone in stealth i never even saw him in the middle of 5 other guys i was standing.

You only get backstabbed like that if you run a glass build, on any nonglass build ive never been oneshot.

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@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@"flyingplanet.6912" said:
ydVHJVS.jpg

There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
  1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
  2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
  3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

This doesn't kill perm stealth.

Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

D:

Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere
near
enough for permastealth.

Oh neat they nerfed that back in July of last year. So I have been able to get "perma" stealth with that being true on base thief? So yes you are right the +1 second doesn't work on combo fields, but it still applies to shadow refuge (no need), concealing restoration, and (if you so choose) hide in shadows. Furthermore, you are still gaining the +1 initiative every 3 seconds if you choose the Shadow's Rejuvenation while stealthed (so you can spam heartseeker 1 or 2 times more) in addition to your normal rate of initiative. Although I have never tried the newer updates of those other two shadow traits, as they looked like dookie. Hidden Thief would help further of course, and I don't deny Deadeye makes perma stealth waaaaayeeee easier (for example: rifle smoke field is cheaper than black powder, roll for that tiny stealth, and their elite grants stealth while clearing revealed).

You can maintain "permastealth" with the shadow trait, trickery trait, + w.e trait. Using withdraw (yes, that's not even a stealth skill!) to proc +3 stealth from concealing restoration, smoke screen + heart seeker to get 12 to 14 secs of stealth, or heartseeker + black powder for 6 secs of stealth. I don't know how much more "near" permastealth you want. Again my point was that currently you don't need half of what the OP has for just permastealth, so the balance update will nerf what I presented. If you wanted an order for this short list to test for yourself then do Smoke screen combo (+14) , withdraw (+3), let it tick down to 5ish seconds of stealth to where initiative maxes out then do black powder combo (+6), then at 3-5ish seconds of stealth repeat. If the goal was just permastealth this is the bare minimum. Should you use this for actual engagements? Prolly not. But I'm operating under the goal was just "permastealth." Deadeye's trait allows them to engage back into some form of stealth loop much easier than base thief of course, so they're more practical for combat while having high stealth uptime.

TLDR: I'm assuming the point of the person I was re-quoting was that even after the nerf of cooldowns "permastealth" thieves can still exist with the abilities/traits that the OP presented. I was suggesting it currently existed without half of what the OP had. So in theory the balance update should make "permastealth" harder for non-deadeyes, while still a little harder for Deadeyes. Did this help you understand what I was saying? I have a habit of not explaining enough.

D:

They never nerfed that. At no point in the games history did Shadow Meld ever affect combo finishers. It always specified that it only affects skills. And well, thats why it affects Shadow Refuge. Though Ill say this, at this point Shadow Refuge is so bad outside of permastealth builds, that it should probably be reworked. The fact that stealth (especially with the recent changes to SA) basically leaves you defenseless means a skill that lets your opponent know where you are while youre stealthing up just becomes an invitation to be destroyed. No idea what youd rework it to, though.

Yeah but thats the thing, even with Shadow's Rejuvination, your initiative regen rate is below 1 per 1 second, so even with the free smoke field from Smoke Screen, you end up with a net loss of initiative vs stealth, and thats if you can cover the inbetween. Far as Im aware, you cant.

Uh, literal permastealth? Thats what permastealth means. If its just "stealthing up for a decent amount of time", that usually means the opponent can see you stealthing up and knows where you are, which defeats the whole point of the build (which shouldnt exist, but thats neither here nor there).

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@Invictorum.7643 said:

@"cobbah.3102" said:Just delete thief , problem solved.

delete Stealth across the board; simple as that

So what defensive buffs will you give to thief to make up for losing stealth, as well as nullifying almost an entire traitline for the class?

it wouldn't only be Thief Profession, but including all Professions.

-intentionally giving stealth 8 years of power to cause chaos...nothing to compensate for its loss

-this should be enough to compensate for it

(in fact, just this morning 8 new players quit because they've had enough of Thief Profession. These 8 players are part of large guilds in a healthy competitive game. It didn't take long for them to share their Toxic experience in twitch. Guild Wars 2 is Anti-Healthy, Anti-Competitive and it is very well deserve when especially new players suddenly leaves it. Nothing will change in the next upcoming Patch if Stealth is not dealt with or to be completely removed. Anet is fully accountable for allowing this Toxic Mechanic pushing even new player away from playing the game) Even guild wars 2 once dedicated streamers are no longer dedicated after opening their eyes of seeing how truely the game does promote and encourages Toxicity and how it continue finding any excuses to not completely address it at its core root. Most importantly, how Anet never cared about our concerns especially when it comes to us begging them when Toxicity is being exploited

As long Anet continues defending Toxic Thief Profession and Toxic Stealth mechanics, nothing will ever change. The next patch is proof of it and that is why it is a big joke and once again, another slap on our faces for believing in it

-take a look at this-

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

@"flyingplanet.6912" said:
ydVHJVS.jpg

There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
  1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
  2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
  3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

This doesn't kill perm stealth.

Ikr? You can get "perma" stealth with smoke field, shadows trait +1 seconds to stealth, and hitting a heal for the stealth proc. Of course, fill in any gaps with black powder and the heart seeker that you would already have anyway. Don't even need to be Deadeye or even spec for the deception cooldown. I don't personally care for shadow refuge but that also doesn't require Deadeye either.

D:

Fun fact: Meld with Shadows does not work on combo finishers. So dropping a Smokefield and spamming Heartseeker will give you the same amount of Stealth, whether you run Shadow Arts, or dont run Shadow Arts. Its uh, nowhere
near
enough for permastealth.

Oh neat they nerfed that back in July of last year. So I have been able to get "perma" stealth with that being true on base thief? So yes you are right the +1 second doesn't work on combo fields, but it still applies to shadow refuge (no need), concealing restoration, and (if you so choose) hide in shadows. Furthermore, you are still gaining the +1 initiative every 3 seconds if you choose the Shadow's Rejuvenation while stealthed (so you can spam heartseeker 1 or 2 times more) in addition to your normal rate of initiative. Although I have never tried the newer updates of those other two shadow traits, as they looked like dookie. Hidden Thief would help further of course, and I don't deny Deadeye makes perma stealth waaaaayeeee easier (for example: rifle smoke field is cheaper than black powder, roll for that tiny stealth, and their elite grants stealth while clearing revealed).

You can maintain "permastealth" with the shadow trait, trickery trait, + w.e trait. Using withdraw (yes, that's not even a stealth skill!) to proc +3 stealth from concealing restoration, smoke screen + heart seeker to get 12 to 14 secs of stealth, or heartseeker + black powder for 6 secs of stealth. I don't know how much more "near" permastealth you want. Again my point was that currently you don't need half of what the OP has for just permastealth, so the balance update will nerf what I presented. If you wanted an order for this short list to test for yourself then do Smoke screen combo (+14) , withdraw (+3), let it tick down to 5ish seconds of stealth to where initiative maxes out then do black powder combo (+6), then at 3-5ish seconds of stealth repeat. If the goal was just permastealth this is the bare minimum. Should you use this for actual engagements? Prolly not. But I'm operating under the goal was just "permastealth." Deadeye's trait allows them to engage back into some form of stealth loop much easier than base thief of course, so they're more practical for combat while having high stealth uptime.

TLDR: I'm assuming the point of the person I was re-quoting was that even after the nerf of cooldowns "permastealth" thieves can still exist with the abilities/traits that the OP presented. I was suggesting it currently existed without half of what the OP had. So in theory the balance update should make "permastealth" harder for non-deadeyes, while still a little harder for Deadeyes. Did this help you understand what I was saying? I have a habit of not explaining enough.

D:

They never nerfed that. At no point in the games history did Shadow Meld ever affect combo finishers. It always specified that it only affects skills. And well, thats why it affects Shadow Refuge. Though Ill say this, at this point Shadow Refuge is so bad outside of permastealth builds, that it should probably be reworked. The fact that stealth (especially with the recent changes to SA) basically leaves you defenseless means a skill that lets your opponent know where you are while youre stealthing up just becomes an invitation to be destroyed. No idea what youd rework it to, though.

For the 14 to 16 seconds of stealth that it gives you on a 60 second cooldown (untraited)? Yeah idk if I like that. I mean you can reset the fight if you're losing, but the chance of being knocked out into a reveal is also a down side. Whereas smokescreen at least blocks ranged projectiles, and blinds melee with a shorter cooldown (albeit you need the initiative for the stealth combo). So yeah shadow refuge is a bit dated unless you are indeed going for the perma stealth crap.

Yeah but thats the thing, even with Shadow's Rejuvination, your initiative regen rate is below 1 per 1 second, so even with the free smoke field from Smoke Screen, you end up with a net loss of initiative vs stealth, and thats if you can cover the inbetween. Far as Im aware, you cant.

Uh, literal permastealth? Thats what permastealth means. If its just "stealthing up for a decent amount of time", that usually means the opponent can see you stealthing up and knows where you are, which defeats the whole point of the build (which shouldnt exist, but thats neither here nor there).

Ahhh now I know what you mean. While the above combo technically let's you have the effect of "stealth" indefinitely (which is what I considered "perma stealth"), you add on that the enemy's are also completely unaware of the general position for longer periods of time (things like shadow refuge/smoke fields broadcast would conversely tell locations of the stealth player).

I think a simple fix is to give the current subtle stealth skills a larger tell if you want it along the lines of shadow refuge/smoke fields by letting others know the general location. This also includes the stealth gained from traits. Whereas now it's a brief dark swirl at best for such things.

D:

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@Tinnel.4369 said:

@"flyingplanet.6912" said:
ydVHJVS.jpg

There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
  1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
  2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
  3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

This doesn't kill perm stealth.

All of which take up a utility slot. This forces the char to give up damage potential or utility in exchange for high stealth. You can talk about the numbers, but this does help enforce a fairly hefty tradeoff at a mechanical level.

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For the love of everything you can either tell the op why he's wrong by providing your own examples or you can just continue to just post pointless back and forth attacks on each other for your opinions.

The op came here with his own opinion and math on the nerfs and regardless if he's wrong or not he's shown something, don't just pointlessly tell him again and again that he's wrong just give your own examples so that we can hopefully have a constructive conversation here.

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:I think after all these yrs it's pretty clear what anets vision and stance on stealth is at least regarding thief so no topic pls, time to move on. Getting pretty old.

'A vision is successful when it “speaks” to a wide audience, tells an engaging story that people want to be a part of, challenges people, and creates a sense of urgency. Success occurs when the vision becomes embedded in the daily decisions and actions taken of those you want to lead. A vision is not merely an extended strategic plan or “mission.” When we see a vision that is working, guiding an organization to sustained growth, we know that behind it are leaders who are comfortable leading with their hearts as well as their heads'

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@JonnyForgotten.4276 said:

@"flyingplanet.6912" said:
ydVHJVS.jpg

There are many posts about the permastealth, but I just want to let you know that the most popular way of getting permastealth is heavily nerfed in this upcoming patch.In case you didn't know the way to get easy permastealth :
  1. Pick "Hidden thief" in shadow art that gives 20% cd reduction on deception skills.
  2. Pick "smoke screen" which is a deception skill. (its cd went from 25 sec to 20 sec)
  3. Use heartseeker in the smoke screen until it goes away

then the duration of stealth should be approximately equal to the remaining cd of smoke screen.And in this upcoming patch, the smoke screen cooldown increased from 25 sec to 35 sec as well as shadow meld stealth duration decrease from 3 sec to 2 sec.So you don't even need deadeye trait to maintain permastealth and now it is getting nerfed.I am posting this because it looked like people were requesting thief permastealth nerf without suggesting specific methods.If you have any other opinions, feel free to write reply

You're saying this with 4 other sources of stealth on your bar..........

This doesn't kill perm stealth.

All of which take up a utility slot. This forces the char to give up damage potential or utility in exchange for high stealth. You can talk about the numbers, but this does help enforce a fairly hefty tradeoff at a mechanical level.

Stealth synergizes with traits and weapon skills to give.....utility, damage, and sustain. It's true if you take the stealth you don't take something else, but stealth isn't just stealth.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Reduce their damage across the board by 50% and let them keep their perma-stealth. Remove all damage on ANY cc like everyone else and viola everyone wins~ You can't one shot anyone from stealth and you can have your gimicky cheesy build and play it all day long. You also shouldn't be able to spike in stealth and you should have an inability to enter stealth while in combat~ If you're going to commit them commit. Force that kind of playstyle to use Zerker or some other squishy build so they are glass cannon all in, or all out type class.

This bullshit Hybrid brawler type gameplay is trash and should not exist in its current form with how the game preforms. Messmers are in much the same boat, if their gonna have stealth and be able to summon tons of clones then they should do less overall damage than EVERYONE ELSE to compincate from all the places damage is coming from. These two classes are cancerous as hell, and they have been a problem since PoF and need to be culled a bit. Make them high risk, high reward classes requiring hardcore mastery of their mechanics to be successful.

Dunno, and don't care how mains of these two classes feel. It needs to be addressed and since they have very strong yet gimmicky mechanics, they need to be culled in a way to make it fun to fight and engage with for THE OTHER PLAYERS. Nothing like being one shot or dominated by a messmer who just has so much shit going on, breaks target and can have clones everywhere while dumping condis on your while at the same time having insane burst. PLUS stealth. Much goes to thief as well, high burst and either tons of evades and cc or perma-stealth one shot builds. (And the occasional condi dead-eye who dumps condi's on you and just keeps stealthing.)

Glad daredevil is getting hit with the nerf-bat, now the rest of it needs a good wack too.

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  • 2 months later...

@"Loke.1429" said:thief permastealth is still a problem, fix it for f sake. talentless. horrible boring gameplay

What matchup and time zone is this army of perma stealth thieves playing that we hear about in this forum? The very few times I see one creeping around I can see they've spent all day trying to pull something off and only rarely catch an easy kill. Ignore them and let them be bored and if they're dumb enough to get close, lock them down and blow them up.

If they actually are "permastealth" then they're not going to have enough answers for what you can throw at them. There's also the possibility that when you see a thief go into stealth once and you get shook and they turn into permastealth thieves when you post about them.

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@kash.9213 said:

@"Loke.1429" said:thief permastealth is still a problem, fix it for f sake.
talentless. horrible boring gameplay

What matchup and time zone is this army of perma stealth thieves playing that we hear about in this forum? The very few times I see one creeping around I can see they've spent all day trying to pull something off and only rarely catch an easy kill. Ignore them and let them be bored and if they're dumb enough to get close, lock them down and blow them up.

If they actually are "permastealth" then they're not going to have enough answers for what you can throw at them. There's also the possibility that when you see a thief go into stealth once and you get shook and they turn into permastealth thieves when you post about them.

'Guild Wars 2 - How To Perma-Stealth'

is this still functionable?

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Easily fix add in shadow / smoke auras when leaping though a smoke field. Stealth is a support effect when use of field why it gives whom ever leaps though it stealth is game braking. By adding this aura in you will give an self support effect that will give you stealth when hit for 1 sec on a 2 sec delay as well as applying reviewl for 2 sec on a 2 sec delay. At the same time by leaving stealth blasting you give a real counter play of sitting on that field to take dmg to stop the thf or whom ever from stealing over and over.

All fields should work like this a leap should give you an aura of that field and a blast should be the support effect of that field. CDR higher cost of skill use will never fix the underlying problems of gw2 there needs to be a major update to old effects that are being exploited in some ways like stealth leaps or not being used at all other blasting or leaping effects though other fields.

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@Jski.6180 said:Easily fix add in shadow / smoke auras when leaping though a smoke field. Stealth is a support effect when use of field why it gives whom ever leaps though it stealth is game braking. By adding this aura in you will give an self support effect that will give you stealth when hit for 1 sec on a 2 sec delay as well as applying reviewl for 2 sec on a 2 sec delay. At the same time by leaving stealth blasting you give a real counter play of sitting on that field to take dmg to stop the thf or whom ever from stealing over and over.

All fields should work like this a leap should give you an aura of that field and a blast should be the support effect of that field. CDR higher cost of skill use will never fix the underlying problems of gw2 there needs to be a major update to old effects that are being exploited in some ways like stealth leaps or not being used at all other blasting or leaping effects though other fields.

Fields should work how they're working right now. Stealth when hit is as dumb as it gets and you might well give all other professions a Down a Thief for Free trait if you're going that route. Why the convoluted system of non deliberate cooldowns that takes all control away from the thief and puts into the hands of professions already with more and better tools?

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"Loke.1429" said:thief permastealth is still a problem, fix it for f sake.
talentless. horrible boring gameplay

What matchup and time zone is this army of perma stealth thieves playing that we hear about in this forum? The very few times I see one creeping around I can see they've spent all day trying to pull something off and only rarely catch an easy kill. Ignore them and let them be bored and if they're dumb enough to get close, lock them down and blow them up.

If they actually are "permastealth" then they're not going to have enough answers for what you can throw at them. There's also the possibility that when you see a thief go into stealth once and you get shook and they turn into permastealth thieves when you post about them.

'Guild Wars 2 - How To Perma-Stealth'

is this still functionable?

That's a how-to video, anyone can figure out how to stealth for long duration with a few minutes of reading through traits and skills. Doesn't mean "perma stealth" is good or useful.

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@kash.9213 said:

@Jski.6180 said:Easily fix add in shadow / smoke auras when leaping though a smoke field. Stealth is a support effect when use of field why it gives whom ever leaps though it stealth is game braking. By adding this aura in you will give an self support effect that will give you stealth when hit for 1 sec on a 2 sec delay as well as applying reviewl for 2 sec on a 2 sec delay. At the same time by leaving stealth blasting you give a real counter play of sitting on that field to take dmg to stop the thf or whom ever from stealing over and over.

All fields should work like this a leap should give you an aura of that field and a blast should be the support effect of that field. CDR higher cost of skill use will never fix the underlying problems of gw2 there needs to be a major update to old effects that are being exploited in some ways like stealth leaps or not being used at all other blasting or leaping effects though other fields.

Fields should work how they're working right now. Stealth when hit is as dumb as it gets and you might well give all other professions a Down a Thief for Free trait if you're going that route. Why the convoluted system of non deliberate cooldowns that takes all control away from the thief and puts into the hands of professions already with more and better tools?

@"Loke.1429" said:thief permastealth is still a problem, fix it for f sake.
talentless. horrible boring gameplay

What matchup and time zone is this army of perma stealth thieves playing that we hear about in this forum? The very few times I see one creeping around I can see they've spent all day trying to pull something off and only rarely catch an easy kill. Ignore them and let them be bored and if they're dumb enough to get close, lock them down and blow them up.

If they actually are "permastealth" then they're not going to have enough answers for what you can throw at them. There's also the possibility that when you see a thief go into stealth once and you get shook and they turn into permastealth thieves when you post about them.

'Guild Wars 2 - How To Perma-Stealth'

is this still functionable?

That's a how-to video, anyone can figure out how to stealth for long duration with a few minutes of reading through traits and skills. Doesn't mean "perma stealth" is good or useful.

Its not like thf losing there class stealth effects as if you want to stealth as a thf the risk reward should be your utility. It sounds like thf wants a "free" ride type of balancing.

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@"Jski.6180" said:Easily fix add in shadow / smoke auras when leaping though a smoke field. Stealth is a support effect when use of field why it gives whom ever leaps though it stealth is game braking. By adding this aura in you will give an self support effect that will give you stealth when hit for 1 sec on a 2 sec delay as well as applying reviewl for 2 sec on a 2 sec delay.

How is this even supposed to be any kind of useful utility, let alone a defensive one? You got hit? No worries, ONE SECOND STEALTH! How exactly does it help anyone, lmao.

major update to old effects that are being exploited in some ways like stealth leaps or not being used at all other blasting or leaping effects though other fields.

See, it's pretty funny because you try to dress it like something new came along in these 8 years that suddenly allows to "exploit the old effects", but that's just false. It's not "exploiting old effects", it's how it was purposefully designed.

Yes, perma stealth is bad and shouldn't be a thing.No, what you're proposing is not a solution, it's a bad joke. Your "one second of stealth after being hit after already using up ini to even get the aura in the first place" is worthless. Do you even play the very thing you're commenting on? Because for me it's a pretty safe bet that you're out of your depth.

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