Riddle: If condi damage is supposed to be damage over time compared to power which comes in bursts..

[saerni.2584]

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

[ZDragon.3046]

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:its questionable case by case some condi burst out ramp power burst and that just simply shouldnt happen the game is not balanced correctly.Even now fire weaver (provided it can land everything) still has more burst in condi then just about any other power burst thats not a 1 shot gimmick.

In pve its insane to see how fast a condi weaver ramps vs almost any other power build

Reality is that weavers condi burst is mad high but its hard for it to land all its skills on you but 1 touch could mean your death if you have no clears it only takes 1-3 baby taps to apply 7+ burn .

In the case of Mirage its more like (at least before the staff nerf) that the conditions never stopped incoming and it was just a constnat stream of burn, bleed, and torment with higher burst ontop of it the duelst combo alone could stack like 15-20+ bleeds

Ive been hit by some combos off of one magic bullet that exceeded 25 bleed 25 torment with confusion on the side too but this is on a profession with limited evades and some times you dont have a choice but to soak the damage but yeah condi burst are just insanely high right now and dont work the way they "should work" as some one else pointed out there is too much cleanse in the game. We are looking at you

[shake it Off!]

(just an example for laughs)

Every condi build imo should be ramping at about the speed necro ramps condi without fear dealing damage which if you test it out is actually pretty slow compared to almost every other condi option in the game even when you land all your big skills. IF every condi build got scaled back to that condi would feel like its actually over time and not instant melts.

This is just plain wrong. Condi burst on fire weaver comes from pyro vortex, usually with support from PS/GoEP. You only get massive burn stacks if you stand in the fire for 2.5s like braindead AI in PvE.

if you say so.... ive only been hit with various things that set me up to 7 burn that was not pyro vortex but you are better than me and know everything

Its not like you can press primordial stance or glyph of elemental power which applies burns on hits from any strike meaning 1 hit from ANY SKILL can apply 2-3 stacks of burn depending on the situation... so yeah getting hit 1-3 times from any attack under the right situation certainly cant apply 7+ burn im wong yup... ok my guy.

Im not going to argue with someone who thinks fire weaver is not silly in the current build where it can just smash stances and run at a target with stability and be extra safe while applying passive burn. Most weavers know their builds are silly and extra oppressive pyro vortex is litterally one of the most rare skills to get hit with from a fire weaver cause its range is extra short you literally dont land it unless the target is cc'ed and cant break the stun or stands there like an AI (which i dont do).... but thats the only skill that makes fire weaver insane... ok.. dude....

You said:

"It's questionable case by case some condi burst out ramp power burst and that just simply shouldnt happen the game is not balanced correctly.Even now fire weaver (provided it can land everything) still has more burst in condi then just about any other power burst thats not a 1 shot gimmick."

A 7 stack burn just from getting close to a weaver is definitely OP. No argument from me. However, it is not "condi burst that out-ramps power burst". As I said, that is just plain wrong. The killing burst you were initially talking about can only come from standing in the fire (usually CC'd or just not paying attention!). Pyro vortex with GoEP/PS is where you get that "1-shot" meme kind of burst that feels a lot more like a power burst build than a condi build.

Normally you would be correct but fire weaver is the exception sorry.

ITs not as noticeable in pvp but as some one who raids and fractals some what often and has a friend who plays fire weaver at the highest level for the most part it out ramps all power builds in almost every group. The dps he outputs ramps so high so fast that people will even allow him to use it on bosses where power builds are meta and preferred while condi is considered bad. The condi ramps so fast to such high numbers it just does not matter. Now i know what you are thinking (But thats pve and this is pvp)

Again the only reason you dont see this in pvp noticeably is because skills like pyro vortex are harder to land on a moving target. But this does no excuse the fact that it still ramps faster. A fire weaver can totally do more dps than a lot of power burst (especially if those power burst can only be done over time in melee range) even if pyro vortex is not even part of the equation. The initial flame uprising strike , a single auto, one or two primordial stance pulses + the glyph will do just as much if not more damage than pyro vortex will and thats more realistically to land than actually landing pyro vortex and that alone is more than 7 stacks of burn This is assuming you dont even get hit by the full duration of the pulsing skills.

Thankfully the skills are hard to land in pvp which has naturally helped balance it out to some extent (not enough) but just a bit.

But yes, of course weaver is overtuned. The ability to deal that kind of damage while evading, healing, and pumping out boons and barrier is just too much. It's also about the only way a build designed for PvE like sword weaver can be meta in PvP. Seriously, ask yourself this question. How else do you make a competitive build with bottom tier health and armor along with almost zero mobility or ranged capability? It almost has to be tanky as hell with excellent damage to even stand a chance!

I dont agree witht the zero mobility part but generally you take extra evades and or blocking skills which weaver does generally have. The issue is not with how tanky it is the issue is more with the fact that the current weaver is too safe with stability from Bolstered Elements to just run at someone while doing their burst. Also being invuln while outputting heavy dps is not acceptable by any means no matter what your hp value or mobility looks like. Thats just not ok for any profession to have in a competitive mode. The only options realistically to walk away until they have burned their offensive options because the offensive options are super safe to everyone except a heavy boon corrupt necro. How ever this is being removed and so is the invuln while doing damage which anet was right to fix.

Trust me, factually fire weaver out ramps almost any power burst globally its just not as noticeable in pvp. I wouldnt say it if i had not seen plenty of examples myself. But generally yes in most cases condi does not outperform power burst but weaver is the exception.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

Wizard is simply a more defensive Grieving. That being said, I’ve favored it over all other amulets, for the past year and a half.

[Bladestrom.6425]

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:

@AliamRationem.5172 said:

@ZDragon.3046 said:its questionable case by case some condi burst out ramp power burst and that just simply shouldnt happen the game is not balanced correctly.Even now fire weaver (provided it can land everything) still has more burst in condi then just about any other power burst thats not a 1 shot gimmick.

In pve its insane to see how fast a condi weaver ramps vs almost any other power build

Reality is that weavers condi burst is mad high but its hard for it to land all its skills on you but 1 touch could mean your death if you have no clears it only takes 1-3 baby taps to apply 7+ burn .

In the case of Mirage its more like (at least before the staff nerf) that the conditions never stopped incoming and it was just a constnat stream of burn, bleed, and torment with higher burst ontop of it the duelst combo alone could stack like 15-20+ bleeds

Ive been hit by some combos off of one magic bullet that exceeded 25 bleed 25 torment with confusion on the side too but this is on a profession with limited evades and some times you dont have a choice but to soak the damage but yeah condi burst are just insanely high right now and dont work the way they "should work" as some one else pointed out there is too much cleanse in the game. We are looking at you

[shake it Off!]

(just an example for laughs)

Every condi build imo should be ramping at about the speed necro ramps condi without fear dealing damage which if you test it out is actually pretty slow compared to almost every other condi option in the game even when you land all your big skills. IF every condi build got scaled back to that condi would feel like its actually over time and not instant melts.

This is just plain wrong. Condi burst on fire weaver comes from pyro vortex, usually with support from PS/GoEP. You only get massive burn stacks if you stand in the fire for 2.5s like braindead AI in PvE.

if you say so.... ive only been hit with various things that set me up to 7 burn that was not pyro vortex but you are better than me and know everything

Its not like you can press primordial stance or glyph of elemental power which applies burns on hits from any strike meaning 1 hit from ANY SKILL can apply 2-3 stacks of burn depending on the situation... so yeah getting hit 1-3 times from any attack under the right situation certainly cant apply 7+ burn im wong yup... ok my guy.

Im not going to argue with someone who thinks fire weaver is not silly in the current build where it can just smash stances and run at a target with stability and be extra safe while applying passive burn. Most weavers know their builds are silly and extra oppressive pyro vortex is litterally one of the most rare skills to get hit with from a fire weaver cause its range is extra short you literally dont land it unless the target is cc'ed and cant break the stun or stands there like an AI (which i dont do).... but thats the only skill that makes fire weaver insane... ok.. dude....

You said:

"It's questionable case by case some condi burst out ramp power burst and that just simply shouldnt happen the game is not balanced correctly.Even now fire weaver (provided it can land everything) still has more burst in condi then just about any other power burst thats not a 1 shot gimmick."

A 7 stack burn just from getting close to a weaver is definitely OP. No argument from me. However, it is not "condi burst that out-ramps power burst". As I said, that is just plain wrong. The killing burst you were initially talking about can only come from standing in the fire (usually CC'd or just not paying attention!). Pyro vortex with GoEP/PS is where you get that "1-shot" meme kind of burst that feels a lot more like a power burst build than a condi build.

Normally you would be correct but fire weaver is the exception sorry.

ITs not as noticeable in pvp but as some one who raids and fractals some what often and has a friend who plays fire weaver at the highest level for the most part it out ramps all power builds in almost every group. The dps he outputs ramps so high so fast that people will even allow him to use it on bosses where power builds are meta and preferred while condi is considered bad. The condi ramps so fast to such high numbers it just does not matter. Now i know what you are thinking (But thats pve and this is pvp)

Again the only reason you dont see this in pvp noticeably is because skills like pyro vortex are harder to land on a moving target. But this does no excuse the fact that it still ramps faster. A fire weaver can totally do more dps than a lot of power burst (especially if those power burst can only be done over time in melee range) even if pyro vortex is not even part of the equation. The initial flame uprising strike , a single auto, one or two primordial stance pulses + the glyph will do just as much if not more damage than pyro vortex will and thats more realistically to land than actually landing pyro vortex and that alone is more than 7 stacks of burn This is assuming you dont even get hit by the full duration of the pulsing skills.

Thankfully the skills are hard to land in pvp which has naturally helped balance it out to some extent (not enough) but just a bit.

But yes, of course weaver is overtuned. The ability to deal that kind of damage while evading, healing, and pumping out boons and barrier is just too much. It's also about the only way a build designed for PvE like sword weaver can be meta in PvP. Seriously, ask yourself this question. How else do you make a competitive build with bottom tier health and armor along with almost zero mobility or ranged capability? It almost has to be tanky as hell with excellent damage to even stand a chance!

I dont agree witht the zero mobility part but generally you take extra evades and or blocking skills which weaver does generally have. The issue is not with how tanky it is the issue is more with the fact that the current weaver is too safe with stability from Bolstered Elements to just run at someone while doing their burst. Also being invuln while outputting heavy dps is not acceptable by any means no matter what your hp value or mobility looks like. Thats just not ok for any profession to have in a competitive mode. The only options realistically to walk away until they have burned their offensive options because the offensive options are super safe to everyone except a heavy boon corrupt necro. How ever this is being removed and so is the invuln while doing damage which anet was right to fix.

Trust me, factually fire weaver out ramps almost any power burst globally its just not as noticeable in pvp. I wouldnt say it if i had not seen plenty of examples myself. But generally yes in most cases condi does not outperform power burst but weaver is the exception.

This is exactly why balancing for pvp requires skills to be split. Damage on a npc with a huge hp base is irrelevant to 97% of content in GW2, and 100 percent irrelevant in pvp where people dodge and cleanse.

[Shao.7236]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

Giving you my current results, I lost 35% condition damage and some sustain from going Deadshot to Wizard, I'm fairly certain that this is easier and better compared lowering all the condition time and making expertise mandatory the other way around.

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

Giving you my current results, I lost 35% condition damage and some sustain from going Deadshot to Wizard, I'm fairly certain that this is easier and better compared lowering all the condition time and making expertise mandatory the other way around.

Deadshot was a crutch, really. I think of it as the pvP version of TB. Obviously a much more limited version of TB :lol:

[Leonidrex.5649]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

Giving you my current results, I lost 35% condition damage and some sustain from going Deadshot to Wizard, I'm fairly certain that this is easier and better compared lowering all the condition time and making expertise mandatory the other way around.

Deadshot was a crutch, really. I think of it as the pvP version of TB. Obviously a much more limited version of TB :lol:

deadshot is a cruch as much as demolisher/maruder

[ArlAlt.1630]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

Giving you my current results, I lost 35% condition damage and some sustain from going Deadshot to Wizard, I'm fairly certain that this is easier and better compared lowering all the condition time and making expertise mandatory the other way around.

Deadshot was a crutch, really. I think of it as the pvP version of TB. Obviously a much more limited version of TB :lol:

deadshot is a cruch as much as demolisher/maruder

fair point. Those 2 need to go, Demo for sure.

[Zexanima.7851]

People are correct in saying condi doesn’t out burst power. Condi does however tick too hard for the rate at which it can be applied. It makes it way more forgiving than power. Not every condi build has this problem but some do. Its that forgiving damage application with being able to build tanky that makes them so overwhelming.

[Shao.7236]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Shao.7236 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@Shao.7236

Burn has been an interesting condi since the update a while back. It was basically

the

burst condition outside of what confusion eventually became as a conditional burst condi. But the durations were always on the high side for a burst condition in part because burn durations were boosted so much.

Most other conditions should have their durations increased (even post patch) to actually make condition damage ramping up possible. But burn is one case where lower durations may be justified even after nerfing the stacks involved somewhat.

I think the conditions are fine now, given Wizard is the new Deadshot and Grieving the Vipers so on.

I’m skeptical that removing amulets is the best way to go. But I’m curious to see how the changes work out.

Giving you my current results, I lost 35% condition damage and some sustain from going Deadshot to Wizard, I'm fairly certain that this is easier and better compared lowering all the condition time and making expertise mandatory the other way around.

Deadshot was a crutch, really. I think of it as the pvP version of TB. Obviously a much more limited version of TB :lol:

deadshot is a cruch as much as demolisher/maruder

IMO most of the builds that use Deadshot are getting quite a hit by the removal while those that rely on Marauder and Demolisher have had the things that carry them nerfed.

[Strider.7849]

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@"Anput.4620" said:Then why is that "time" so short on Mirage.

Pls help i haven't figured this one out yet.

These are some damage per second numbers I calculated a while back;

Condition Mirage Pistol 4 in to Staff 3 Clones Ambush Spam: 2465Fire Weaver Lava Skin Into Fire Attunement Glyph of Elemental Power and Primordial Stance: 3279

vs

Photon Forge Corona Burst Might stack into quickness autos: 4468Ranger Quickening Zephyr into Maul into greatsword autos with Rock Gazelle: 4452Sic Em Soulbeast Merged Quickening Zephyr Rapid Fire into autos: 5232Reaper's Shroud Reaper's Onslaught Autos: 4436Reaper's Shroud Soul Spiral into Autos: 5822Herald Phase Traversal into Sword 4+5 then Auto Attacks: 5882Herald Phase Traversal into Auto Attacks with Impossible Odds: 6576Core SA Thief Assassin Signet into Backstab+Steal into Auto Attacks: 8612Daredevil Pistol Whip Spam with Lesser Haste Proc: 4361Deadeye Binding Shadows into Mark into Three Round Burst Spam: 7162Warrior Bull's Charge into Frenzy Arcing Slice then Hundred Blades then Whirlwind Attack Right Before the knockdown ends: 7714

Power damage has significantly higher burst than condition builds, literally anywhere between 33% higher to over 250% higher burst DPS. Even when comparing the burstiest condition classes using their burst combos. These numbers are all based on meta builds with realistic stats that you'd find from Gods of PvP or MetaBattle.

Basically, a condition mirage might kill you in 6.5 seconds if you stand still eat every attack and don't cleanse. Multiple power builds can kill you in under 2 seconds. The idea that any condition build is bursting you faster than any power build is literally just in your head and does not play out when damage numbers are properly calculated.

You didn't factor in a burst that can come completely from stealth or while being invulnerable. Not disagreeing here that straight condi takes slightly longer to kill. Comparing damage numbers across classes without looking at their means of applying that damage simply doesn't work.

[Obtena.7952]

Understanding why it works this way isn't a prerequisite to be killed by it, using it to kill others ... or preventing being killed by it. If there is some veiled complaint here, the veiled answer is as short and cryptic as the complaint.

"because condition damage in THIS game isn't simple"