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STORY MODE FOR RAIDS


Kaizer.8261

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Hello everyone!

So, i started playing this game not so long ago, less than a year, and i'm really passionate about the game PVE content (specially LWS content), but i never did any fractals or even raids, only Dungeons to this moment.I've seen a lot of people talking about dificulty in raids, that for unprepared teams or unskilled players it would be too hard. I KNOW i'm not coming up with a completelly new or original idea, but i wanted to sugest an "Story Mode" for Raids, where you could do it with smaller and/or less skilled groups, or even alone just for it's story. I'm going to be honest and say i wouldn't care much about rewards, i just want to enjoy the Stories behind these raids and have some fun.

I also think it would be great to learn boss mechanics and train new players onto raids, teaching boss paterns, "HP Thresholds Moves" and etc.

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Same here, I'd really like to experience the stories of raids without the stress of a massively-coordinated 10man effort, because while you do get the story that way, its burried in alot of other things going on and you don't really "experience" it.

Its like trying to watch and understand a TV show while you're also listening to music with headphones on.

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Im all for an easy "story mode" type of deal but imo not it being solo like you normally see ppl ask for, each raid consisting of a group of adventurers banding together is what makes these bosses and the lore of each wing what they are compaired to you killing godlike beings solo in the ps and lw, so for me any easy mode should absolutely be 10 man still.

Other than that i feel lile baLncing and spliting the team's efforts into making 3 diff versions for each raid might be abit too much so i suggest simply nerfing the nm further, it shouldnt be " i walk in and kill everything in one pull", but for pugs it should be a 2 to 5 pull deal at most (and that a pug that resembles at team in a way. (gear and playstyle) Its group content after all.

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While I agree with your premise, OP, I believe a better solution would be an 'easy mode' of sorts inspired by Fractals. Something along the lines of weekly repeatable T1/2/3/4/CM Raids with scaled rewards for each tier. T3 should be the current difficulty, T2 and T1 should be scaled down with T1 being easier, and CMs are the current CMs but repeatable and with better rewards. How they make it easier is up to them, but perhaps more forgiving mechanics. Things that instant down you just deal minimum 50%, so they're still threatening but not nearly as punishing. Reduction of damage from auras and bad aoes. Keep the timing of attacks, keep the mechanics, but just make them less punishing if failed. A T1 Dhuum green, for instance, when failed, just reduces the Reaper's HP by 25% for instance, while T3 it causes the wipe like it normally does. Things like that allow people to learn the mechanics and understand that missing them is pretty bad while not immediately causing them to wipe.

As for rewards, I'd say that T1/T2 still give currency, but won't unlock the unique skins at the merchant. T4/CM should unlock more neat stuff at the merchant and give much more LI.

@"Hannelore.8153" said:Same here, I'd really like to experience the stories of raids without the stress of a massively-coordinated 10man effort, because while you do get the story that way, its burried in alot of other things going on and you don't really "experience" it.

Its like trying to watch and understand a TV show while you're also listening to music with headphones on.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here. Story beats in raids are told between bosses and events.

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@"Kaizer.8261" said:Hello everyone!

So, i started playing this game not so long ago, less than a year, and i'm really passionate about the game PVE content (specially LWS content), but i never did any fractals or even raids, only Dungeons to this moment.I've seen a lot of people talking about dificulty in raids, that for unprepared teams or unskilled players it would be too hard. I KNOW i'm not coming up with a completelly new or original idea, but i wanted to sugest an "Story Mode" for Raids, where you could do it with smaller and/or less skilled groups, or even alone just for it's story. I'm going to be honest and say i wouldn't care much about rewards, i just want to enjoy the Stories behind these raids and have some fun.

I also think it would be great to learn boss mechanics and train new players onto raids, teaching boss paterns, "HP Thresholds Moves" and etc.

I know that this is not a storymode or anything you are asking, but here is some raid story for you if you are intrested.

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I wouldn't expect any new effort into raid development in the foreseeable future. The resources just aren't there.

Also, I will say that - except for the culmination of the Saul D'alessio story line - they have been good about keeping real story out of most of the raids - and I think they learned their lesson with Saul.

At the same time, the fact that the raids are not a good story telling device in this game (in large part because of the lack of a story mode) is a big part of the reason they don't really fit in GW2 to begin with. The devs wanted to use the word "raid" in their marketing material for HOT and - as a result - didn't really explore better ways to integrate difficult content (through event triggers and level difficulty for living story steps, for instance) that would have tied in with the game's story. It is yet another symptom of them trying to be all things to all MMO players rather than focusing on what sets them apart from their competition.

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@Teratus.2859 said:Lot of us have been barking up this tree for years man.

I don't see it happening to be honest but I'll keep defending the benefits I see of easy mode raids no matter how many times I get into disagreements with people who think differently.

LFR ruined raiding for wow, there are plenty of reasons faceroll raids are a terrible idea.

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There is very little story content in raids, i think the best story that could come of it would be the plot that goes between wings 1 through 4, which is a short story that has an implication on the greater lore - but isn't delivered very well because of the context of raids.

It will not be good content without the fights in between them. It will not be good content if the fights aren't the core focus of the content. The story is pretty bad in it's delivery, and this will show so much more with easier fights too. You are not The Commander in raids, just one of an adventuring party. There is very little tension at any point - not for the missing squad, not for adhashim, not for the underworld - i would describe the story as simply an element which binds the content to the world of gw2, just a reason for why these things exist. Now...if they capitalised on raids and attempted good story with them - like we get with the actual story episodes - then I think raid story would be a problem. That said, i do not think story should be a focus within raids. As is, you are not missing anything.

Watch a youtube video that summarises the story. Or they could make teired difficulty in raids so that less confident peeps try it.

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@"Raknar.4735" said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

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@Eramonster.2718 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

GW2 raids are easy enough already. People in GW2 however think that if they can't pug it mindlessly it's "too hard". I cleared most bosses with my guild while we were in full exotics playing off-meta builds(that are still good though, just aren't meta).

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@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

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@Eramonster.2718 said:

@"Raknar.4735" said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@"Raknar.4735" said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: From what I can see only Ghostcrawler himself laments it, but not Blizzard.https://mmo-champion.com/threads/2089712-The-Creator-of-LFR-Regrets-Inventing-ItAnd from what I'm reading here not the difficulty, but the part where people leave was the problem. Guess they didn't enjoy raiding.

Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following: https://reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/f7kajk/there_are_more_raiders_in_classic_than_retail_wcl/That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.I recall ghostcrawler once said it was a bad idea but all I could find now is this:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://amp.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/52g9sn/ghostcrawler_on_what_his_worst_design_decision_is/&ved=2ahUKEwjEh_mB2-fnAhVH2aQKHdovCIIQFjAHegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2f8b7q6iCpIfhAaYFdhR1_In this vid asmondgold explains why it's such a bad idea:

Nixxiom, another big wow youtuber articulates the problems well enough:
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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.

Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.

In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.

Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.

In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.

Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.

When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.

Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.

In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.

Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.

When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.

They do? Why? If you don't like raiding the pvp/wvwvw leggy armor is far easier to get. And you get the utility of the leggy armor.I think unique skins are absolutely a must. I mean, lets say you beat a certain piece of challanging content and you wanna show it, how else would you do it? Seems rather weird that you would get the same reward without the challange. Just like the unique pvp titles, would be weird to give them outside of pvp.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.LFR is the problem, Mythic was introduced later to try to save the game by offering the "challenge", what the dev assumed they took away; an attempt to save their game. It didn't, was more than that (community etc) it created a rift and made mythic harder to access and thrive. Damage was done to the game's focus; Raids and irreversible. Both, devs (admitted) and players regretted over LFR's implementation.

That's in another game where Raid is their focus. How will easy mode work for Gw2 raids? Personally, I don't know.I do know however it will create a rift between the 2 modes as its not the same. Fractals 99 & 100 and CM. Strikes and Raids. Same, yet splitted.

@Raknar.4735 said:LFR is the only thing that saved raiding for WoW, without them they wouldn't be able to develop mythic difficulty ones.

It's a really weird statement since even Blizz said that LFR hurt the game. Not to mention the fact that it's the concesus among the players. Mythic has nothing to do with that 0.0, mythic was actually a throwback to traditional raiding.

Not that weird of a statement. Barely anyone but the top does Mythic. Not even hardcore players like Asmongold, who I consider one, if not the most invested player in the game, clears current raids in Mythic difficulty.

I actually would like to see where Blizz admitted that LFR was a mistake, I guess I missed that post by them. Care to share a link? I'd think they would have removed it by now, if it truly was bad for the game.

Edit: Also funny that the creator of Warcraft Logs says the following:
That could also be because he has a bias against retail, but idk. I haven't really followed the WoW raiding scene and their drama.

Well, that's kinda the whole point of mythic. Don't forget WoW has a gear treadmill so it takes dedication to just get gear for mythic.Btw, classic raiding was much less accessible than raiding in wrath forward so that comment seems weird to me unless he actually means to bash super easy content.

Raiding in Classic is very accessible now, since people know about the raids. Only a small amount of people actually raided during Vanilla. MC and BWL are being Pugged all the time. He's specifically bashing the retail raids that are just mechanically hard content instead of a social experience like in the past / in Classic.

Asmongold doesn't like LFR, yet he still does it. He also pugged normal difficulty all the time. Yet he doesn't really do Mythic. Says alot about the playrate of that content from a dedicated player.

The fact that he does it despite the fact that he doesn't like it, is one of the many reasons it's such a bad thing. When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

Soooo, unique rewards for raiding or any other content is bad? I agree. Everything should be attainable in any gamemode. That way we wouldn't even need a "story mode" for raids.

But that's not the issue here. If Asmondgold does Heroic/Normal that means he isn't interested doing raids just for the story, so there shouldn't be a need for him to do LFR. Blizzard however made LFR a part of the gearing ladder, which gw2 doesnt even have, so he does LFR despite the fact that he doesn't like it. It really doesnt have anything to do with the point you made.In GW2 that's not an issue at all, you can get all the things you want from any game mode. Leggy armor can be obtained for wvw and pvp too.

But the legendary skins would be a certain reward. The same goes for some other raidskins. In order to get them you would need to do the corresponding raids. There are people that raid just for the skins, even if they aren't interested in doing raids. I don't really see the difference. Yes, one is bound to stats, but that's just because WoW is based on vertical progression. You also don't need LFR gear to do normal raids. There are also multiple ways to get similiar gear with the same iLVL as LFR gear through World Quests and stuff, so you aren't forced to do LFR just to get stats.

Well, unique skins to certain forms of content is more than fair IMHO. The difference seems obvious since skins to offer anything mechanically. I think we should have raid skins, pvp skins, wvw skins.

In wow you can avoid LFR if you want but the fact that it pulls Heroic and Normal raiders screams bad design.

Raids in GW2 also pull people that wouldn't normally raid, or dislike raiding, just for the skins or the easy access to legendary armor, so I'd also call that bad design.

When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

I guess we just have a different definition of "certain reward", as I don't restrict it to numerical values/upgrades. Skins, teleportation devices, chairs etc. are also rewards for me that are restricted to certain areas of the game I personally dislike.

They do? Why? If you don't like raiding the pvp/wvwvw leggy armor is far easier to get. And you get the utility of the leggy armor.I think unique skins are absolutely a must. I mean, lets say you beat a certain piece of challanging content and you wanna show it, how else would you do it? Seems rather weird that you would get the same reward without the challange. Just the unique pvp titles.

Idk, legendary raid armour has always felt easier to get to me than PvP or WvW armour. It's just some scripted dance routine over and over.Also someone that exclusively plays PvE would not have another choice than go for the raid armor.It really just boils down to

When someone does a piece of content even if he hates it just to get a certain reward its a rather bad sign IMHO.

I've never really felt the need to show off anything to anyone, I only really care about my own character or good looking characters. Like why would they even care? Not like doing a scripted bossfight is something unique. I only really admire people that do truly unique feats, like the Dark Souls challenges I mentioned, or speedrunners. They don't actually get anything for that, just the fame that they've done it.

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