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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

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Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

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Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

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Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

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Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

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Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

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Raknar.4735

Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to, to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist toxic zealots and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

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Raknar.4735

Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

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Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

They aren't actually listening to the vocal players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

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Amaranthe.3578

Amaranthe.3578

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@Raknar.4735 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

They aren't actually listening to the players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

I don't think its the right solution too. I think the obvious conclusion that some sort of bridge is needed comes from the massive DPS difference between the average player and the good players . The right solution is adding challenge along the way so that people dont just roflstomp all the open world content with autoattacks. Notice that the OP basically says that people don't raid because they are too hard and too toxic lol.

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Raknar.4735

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@Amaranthe.3578 said:

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

@Amaranthe.3578 said:Actually the only problem is that people seem to intent on raiding with pugs. Raiding with pugs is gonna suck no matter what.

Raiding with PUGs is more challenging and theoretically adds a social aspect, since you have to familiarize yourself with new people. I know that's not what some raiders want, they just want to be rewarded ;)

The actual top problem is fun. If people don't enjoy something, they just don't do it. Not that hard to grasp.

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time. PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.

People are Pugging just fine. If you dislike Pugging so much, then just don't do it. Make your own groups. But don't tell other players how to play, that's ridiculous.I like pugging because it lets you meet new people and for the increased challenge, you may disagree, but it doesn't change the fact that raiding in a PUG adds a layer of difficulty. WoW is also just fine with PUGs, just look at Classic and MC.Pugging needs more coordination and communication, since you're not already a familiarised team.

Your comment seems so absurd to me I get the feeling you're just saying absurd things simply to disagree. Cheers.You're either trolling or too dim to have a discussion with. I won't bother anymore.

Back to the personal insults. I didn't expect anything less. It's obvious to me you just don't like when people have a differen't opinion than you.

Actually, I don't like people who don't address anything I say and just keep repeating the same nonsense. Can't say I expected anything more from you. Being dim is not an insult, some people are just dim... it's human nature.

Your only argument was that PUGs are bad. I said PUGs are challenging and you disagreed. You didn't even address the "fun" part. If anyone just keeps repeating the same nonsense, it's you. It also doesn't help that you're trying to play down personal insults.

I listed a whole block of reasons WHY pugs are not fun. But you don't address them and keep spewing the same nonsense.

Because your whole block of "reasons" boils down to PUGs being a "pain in the rear." and "not intended" for raiding. There's nothing to adress there. I just disagree with that notion.Calling my comment "absurd" didn't really invite to a healthy conversation. Calling my posts nonsense doesn't help either.

No it doesn't. Each reason addresses a different problem with pugs. Your need to simply dismiss them doesn't help. It's like you're just trying to push your opinion, instead of trying to actually listen to others. Not that I'm shocked by that, it seems you do that regularly on these forums.

Atleast I don't dismiss someone elses opinion ;)

No, raiding with pugs is a waste of time.

To you they are, I enjoy PUGs sometimes. Time spent while doing fun activities isn't wasted time imo.

PUGs aren't willing to go to voicecom, insist on ridiculously specific comps to make the raid go as smooth as possible and avoid mechanics, if you invest time in teaching them its a waste since you probably wont see em again.

Trying to force people to do something they don't like isn't the best way to do things. You could just create your own group and state that voicecoms are a must for the PUG, or just create a Guildgroup from the start. No need to even interact with them if you don't want to.

Adds a social aspect? Are you joking? Raiding with your guild gives you the best social experience since you actually coordinate and communicate.

Raiding with a Guild or a PUG doesn't change the encounter. The same amount of coordination and communication is needed. Whereas you can meet new people in PUGs, you won't meet them in statics, unless some are new to the static.

PUGs unwillingness to cooperate is not an added challange, its a pain in the rear.

It is an added challenge. Getting Group cohesion and cooperation right is a challenge in itself.

Raids are not supposed to be done with PUGS. Especially if you're still learning the fight. Not in GW2, not in WoW and not in any game I've ever seen.

Yet GW2 and WoW raids are being pugged all the time, even if you're still learning the fight. WoW also allows to learn the fight through lower difficulties that are made for PUGs (LFR)

In the end it boils down to you not liking PUGs and their added challenge.

I get now where you're coming from, somewhat. The thing is, I really see pugs as a handicap rather than a challange. You might say a handicap can be a challange and I agree but I don't think its the case here, definitely not for me.I will try giving a parallel here, I'm not that good with then so I hope I will get my point across.Let's say that running is a challange. You can practice as you normally would or you can try running on one leg. Is it really a challange? Do you actually improve by handicapping yourself? I don't think so.

Well, that doesn't really qualify as running anymore. But maybe you're trying to beat a one-legged run record.Like doing a no dodge/no hit only fists challenge in Dark Souls is handicapping yourself, but it still counts as a challenge since it increases difficulty. Same goes for Lvl 1 runs.

PUGs that don't have a lot of DPS could not do Gorseval without phasing him instantly, so you'd have to do mechanics. Things like that do increase the challenge. A coordinated group would just burn him down.

But are you improving your running skills by handicapping yourself? Absolutely not.Is being wheelchair bound a challange? No, it's a handicap.From my experience PUGs ignore mechanics, low DPS is not the issue. PUGs insist on meta comps to try and rush mechanics. On a coordinated group you can actually play what you like and easily clear the raid with exotics.

You're not improving your running skills, but your one legged running skills. A no dodge/no hit challenge doesn't increase your Dark Souls dodge timing skills, but other aspects.Being bound to a wheelchair allows you to learn how to efficiently use the wheelchair and make the best of the situation. Someone bound to it also doesn't have the option to just stand up and run, like you would have by just not choosing to PUG.In my experience DPS and mechanics both are the issue in PUGs. A coordinated group can just push DPS hard and ignore mechanics.

Are you being abtuth on purpose lol? Being wheelchair bound is a handicap. Do you know a paraplegic who would pass on a cure? I dont think so.

I don't think he would pass on a cure, but he also doesn't have the choice to walk on two legs. Someone in my social vicinity I interact quite often with is bound to a wheelchair. Of course it is a handicap for that person, but they didn't choose to have the disability. I don't even see how you can compare something you're forced in to a PUG you aren't forced to be a part of.

That's kinda my point here, many people complain that raids are too hard, that the raiding community are a bunch of elitist zealouts and whatnot. All while insisting on raiding with pugs, which is basically raiding with a handicap.

Or maybe they just aren't fun to them, because they dislike that type of content. I've pugged and raided with a guild myself. I'd still say that raids are unfun, not hard. The only hard part about raids is outside of raids. Finding the time, finding the right people etc..

They clearly say that raids are way too hard and all the other things I said. I don't say that, they do.

Yeah, they also clearly state that they just dislike raiding.

So what is their problem? If they dont like raiding they shouldn't raid xD. What do they want then? Legendary armor from open world content? There is no other form of challanging content in PvE besides raids/fractals.

Funny thing you said that, that is actually what they do, hence "the small audience they attract". But Anet for some reason still tries to push for that type of instanced content, now via Strikes.

Raids and fractals aren't challenging content, just dance routines. PvP and WvW is where the challenge is :P

Crazy Arena net listening to the players and taking them at their word when they say raids are too hard for them.

They aren't actually listening to the players, just evaluating some of their metrics that show that only a small audience plays raids. Fractals seem to be in a healthier state.I don't think they've found the right conclusion though. I'm very sceptical of their decision to use SMs as a bridge to raids.

I don't think its the right solution too. I think the obvious conclusion that some sort of bridge is needed is that the DPS difference between the average player and the good players is freaking massive. The right solution is adding challenge along the way so that people dont just roflstomp all the open world content with autoattacks.

Barely anyone that I know of, raiders, casuals and midcore players alike, only autoattack. Arenanet is adding that "challenge along the way" via SMs.

The massive 10x gap between players is most likely due to Arenanet comparing a median of an unbuffed player with bad gear to median of fullbuffed players in a raid situation with all the 10man buffs (I don't know who they compared to who, they never released that, only stating the 10x).

Funnily enough I'm pretty sure trying to make the players "more skilled" isn't going to work. It didn't in WoW, they just elevated the skill floor by homogenizing.

That said WoW has an easier way to bring up the skill floor, since the gear system is pretty standardized. People don't have to look at specific stats and think about if the gear will be better for them. iLVL does that for them, they just see green numbers and see that their dps goes up. It doesn't matter if the player is unskilled, he will always do a baseline of dps due to the gear, since they only have Tank/DPS/Heal gear. Similiar to how they are now going for Attack/Defense stats in Diablo 4.

GW2 is another beast. I'd compare it to PoE in a stat-sense. There are so many stats that are just confusing to casual players. It doesn't help that at the end-game those stats all have the same values. Why should someone that didn't read through the stats know that Power/Precision/Ferocity would be the optimal way to play a Power based DPS character? Power/Vitality/Ferocity has the same values after all. They don't see their "green up arrow". Some just equip Power/Vit/Toughness and call it a day. GW2 is filled with noob traps like that. It also doesn't help that the boon system is such a huge balance problem, while WoWs buffs are pretty much just pre-buffs, something you don't actively have to manage, aside from heroism. Their rotations are also simpler if you compare it to something like condi renegade.

TL;DR Adding challenge along the way will not increase player skill for the majority, just increase frustration, like in HoT. The cause is GW2's gearing and boon system.

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Felipe.1807

Felipe.1807

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The fact that the game was built around "play how you want" is big reason why people dont even bother with it...10 players instanced content is another, back in the day going to LFG to something like AC path 1, you would get a full group in seconds no matter the time of the day...trying for HotW or something least popular...Jesus, you could probably go in solo or 2 players, or whatever, allmost finish the whole dungeon and still not get a full group...Raids are just that but 10 times worst, you need to play on very specific times in order to find people to play with you...so if you have job, family, college, etc it can be quite hard to just impossible really...now Raids been for a while, you finally have time to play it and you start meet all these demands, specific builds and professions, with people checking your DPS and stuff and asking for Raid currencies, which you dont have it lol even my guild that used to extremelly friendly towards pugs at the old times with Dungeons and Fractals started to act toxic toward people that dont meet their demands....Also theres the fact that Raids kind of destroyed the balance of the game, turning sPvP into a mess and WvW even worst then allready was...trait rework and Elite specs, both which were made with Raids on mind, its the mark of the biggest decline in PvP...its gets to the point that people actually miss old cele meta, and that was bad.

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VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Stalvros.9217 said:At least, that's just the statistics that we can see from gw2 efficiency? (Only less then 5% of the population that registered their API with the site has Legendary Insight?)

29.989% of the 223,689 accounts tracked on gw2 efficiency have killed Vale Guardian.

So the OP is wrong about Raids attracting small audience. We even had comments by the developers telling us that Raids exceeded their expectations in terms of popularity. But that was during Heart of Thorns, when the game had a more active overall population.

The highest number of the Key of Adhasim is 6.094% and it does look bad, but we have to take into account that the active population is also much lower now

It's not a problem with the population of Raids, it's a problem with the population of the game.

6% of a smaller audience. So the raid 'community' is tiny.

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Eramonster.2718

Eramonster.2718

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It will probably continue to go smaller, following the path of dungeon if continue to be left alone.PS: A friend(return player from core) came back recently, to checkout the changes in game. I hit a paused, when he asked me how to obtain Arah's dungeon skins.

Players have difficulties entering the content, newer players doesn't even know about raids or how to start, without proper guidance. No groups running in LFG, similar to dungeons. With no group, insufficient numbers for a "group content" its difficult to fly. Can't or won't lead as first timer/inexperienced or to not deal with the pressure of leading.

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sokeenoppa.5384

sokeenoppa.5384

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@"voltaicbore.8012" said:For me it's just a matter of time. Specifically, time to train rotation, and time to learn the encounter.

I've yet to run my rotations with boons on the training golem, but I'm just not reaching the sort of numbers I should be. Sure, my gear isn't 100% done (missing higher-end infusions), but it's more than good enough for raiding, but I fall quite short of benchmarks. I'm sure with more sessions in the training arena can get me there, but I find it exceedingly boring and feel stung by the opportunity cost of all the other cool things I could be doing rather than beating up a golem. The problem with practicing in the other parts of the game world have to do with not having optimal comps, enemies dying too fast, etc.

But if I get right down to it, everything I said above about "time to train" are just excuses. After all, I can just put in a bit more effort on the special forces golem and I'm sure I'd build the muscle memory to get it right. The real time problem I have is finding a block of time where I post my own LFG, enter a raid, and fail for hours (and somehow find 9 people to share those hours of failure with me). If I were still a college student and could burn a huge chunk of prime gaming hours on weekends to learn raids at my own pace with a like minded group, this wouldn't be a problem.

I suspect that a lot of the other competent 305 mastery folks that I run into for fractals and dungeons are in a similar position.

If you are EU, our guild does raid trainings more or less daily. Usually we start 20:00cet and raid takes 1.5h. We use sign up systwm in discord so we only expect you to show up for raids where you signed up.

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DutchRiders.2871

DutchRiders.2871

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Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a crap about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.

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