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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I still do not get why ele dagger dmg is getting nerfed so hard when its the highest risk wepon in the game on the highest risk class... this realy maybe it for a lot of ppl.

Dagger is nerfed because everything is nerfed. Just consider that with the incoming patch the elementalist will take less damage so it will effectively be less risky for him. As for ele being the "highest risk class", it's arguable. It does have the freedom to build very glassy, but it also have the freedom to built very tanky. The risk is inherently in the build and chosen gameplay not in the class, if the player complain about it's survivability when he got the choice to reduce it's damage for more survivability, the player do not have the right to complain about the class being "risky".

But they are not nerfing class hp / def that IS the "risky" i am talking about. You can build def as much as you like on any class and be unbelivly tankly as a class in its own way ele too. The thing is its the other end that has gotten nerfed in this update where if every one dose less dmg every one becomes more tankly so the allready passivly tankly classes will now become even more tankly.

They do it thought.

The issue is that you look at the health pool in a narrow way. The health pool is merely a "buffer", the tip of the iceberg, what's important is the effective health pool and this include all defensive and sustain mechanisms be it active or passive. And yes, ANet nerf sustain and quite a lot of active defense tools.

Now, if you are concerned about whether or not they did a good job when nerfing this sustain, we will have to wait and see. For my part, I'm pretty sure they failed on the necromancer but I might be wrong. However, it's undeniable that they "tried".

This update needs to come with every class having the same armor and hp in wvw base line. Its that simple.

You mean PvP need no class, right? The thing is that, again you do not take into account all the defensive and sustain tools that the different professions have. This game have been ruled by the level of damage that you can dish out for so long that when a glass canon face a tank and can't kill it, he just complain that the tank need nerf. No! A tank is meant to counter a glass canon. You don't break a rock with scisor alone, you have to need a good hammer behind the scisor to break the rock.

ANet want a change of pace for their GW2 PvP. Do they do the right thing? I don't know. Will this work? Only time can show us whether or not it will work. Will people complain because it shatter their habit? Hell yeah!

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@Jski.6180 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I still do not get why ele dagger dmg is getting nerfed so hard when its the highest risk wepon in the game on the highest risk class... this realy maybe it for a lot of ppl.

Dagger is nerfed because everything is nerfed. Just consider that with the incoming patch the elementalist will take less damage so it will effectively be less risky for him. As for ele being the "highest risk class", it's arguable. It does have the freedom to build very glassy, but it also have the freedom to built very tanky. The risk is inherently in the build and chosen gameplay not in the class, if the player complain about it's survivability when he got the choice to reduce it's damage for more survivability, the player do not have the right to complain about the class being "risky".

But they are not nerfing class hp / def that IS the "risky" i am talking about. You can build def as much as you like on any class and be unbelivly tankly as a class in its own way ele too. The thing is its the other end that has gotten nerfed in this update where if every one dose less dmg every one becomes more tankly so the allready passivly tankly classes will now become even more tankly.

This update needs to come with every class having the same armor and hp in wvw base line. Its that simple.

Considering there will still be more damage and effects after this patch compared to when the game came out and those health and armour differences were ok back then...I don't think it's as simple as you're making out.

I also think you're missing out on yes everyone will do less damage..but there is also less boons, less healing and sustain, higher cooldowns on impactful skills etc. A lot of everything is just being dialed back, not just damage.

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@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I still do not get why ele dagger dmg is getting nerfed so hard when its the highest risk wepon in the game on the highest risk class... this realy maybe it for a lot of ppl.

Dagger is nerfed because everything is nerfed. Just consider that with the incoming patch the elementalist will take less damage so it will effectively be less risky for him. As for ele being the "highest risk class", it's arguable. It does have the freedom to build very glassy, but it also have the freedom to built very tanky. The risk is inherently in the build and chosen gameplay not in the class, if the player complain about it's survivability when he got the choice to reduce it's damage for more survivability, the player do not have the right to complain about the class being "risky".

But they are not nerfing class hp / def that IS the "risky" i am talking about. You can build def as much as you like on any class and be unbelivly tankly as a class in its own way ele too. The thing is its the other end that has gotten nerfed in this update where if every one dose less dmg every one becomes more tankly so the allready passivly tankly classes will now become even more tankly.

They do it thought.

The issue is that you look at the health pool in a narrow way. The health pool is merely a "buffer", the tip of the iceberg, what's important is the effective health pool and this include all defensive and sustain mechanisms be it active or passive. And yes, ANet nerf sustain and quite a lot of active defense tools.

Now, if you are concerned about whether or not they did a good job when nerfing this sustain, we will have to wait and see. For my part, I'm pretty sure they failed on the necromancer but I might be wrong. However, it's undeniable that they "tried".

This update needs to come with every class having the same armor and hp in wvw base line. Its that simple.

You mean PvP need no class, right? The thing is that, again you do not take into account all the defensive and sustain tools that the different professions have. This game have been ruled by the level of damage that you can dish out for so long that when a glass canon face a tank and can't kill it, he just complain that the tank need nerf. No! A tank is meant to counter a glass canon. You don't break a rock with scisor alone, you have to need a good hammer behind the scisor to break the rock.

ANet want a change of pace for their GW2 PvP. Do they do the right thing? I don't know. Will this work? Only time can show us whether or not it will work. Will people complain because it shatter their habit? Hell yeah!

I understand that but the fact that there is a differences show there a problem with the balancing. If it was not that important then ever one could be set to say 15k hp and 2k armor in wvw base and every thing else could be balance a lot better and easier.

As things stand its like balancing on uneven ground in a wind storm with different weights that are too much for you to hold and some how your on fire at the same time. At least they can make the ground more even and start from there to making the balancing in this game better.

The right question to ask of anet is why classes have different hp / def and is that the right way to go about making the game better. When they go though all of this from this update and treat skills the same even if they have massive different effects such as making all self stab on very long cd making passive 300 sec cd and making all dmg mods of cc .01. If they can do that with out destroy there game (or at least they think it will not destroy there game that has yet to be seen) why would hp / def standardization be any different?

This game is NOT a 3 class system and there is no way it hold to that ideal. Mages are not mages in this game assassin are not assassin and your tanks are not tanks. Every one is build by there gear and nothing more but having a differences of hp / def adds a level of unbalancing that dose nothing to help this type of counter play but harms it by letting some classes simply have free def leading to free dmg with out paying for it by more risk. My ele who is a mages has the lowest def and hp it can be build to be super tankly giving up all of its dmg, a thf has lowest hp as well but mid armor it can be build to be all in def but with out giving up as much dmg as the ele, a war has the most base hp and def it can build tankly with out giving up much dmg. That is not right and in no way balance and ever can be balanced.

Yes every class has there skills but every class has there skills and means of playing actively def there is no class in the game that lacks these effects and offten they have them in there own way so much so that you forget about hp / def IF you do not get one shot by one or another class. The thing is some classes are and have been one shot by classes who simply have free hp / def that they lack.

This dmg update is only going to make ALL classes more tankly or give up less def for more power BUT classes who already do not need to give up much power to be tankly will now have to give up far less. This is NOT the update to fix the balancing in this game and if anet thinks this will fix the underlying problem of balancing in wvw spvp even pve the hp / def differences between classes i see this game falling apart.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@Jski.6180 said:I still do not get why ele dagger dmg is getting nerfed so hard when its the highest risk wepon in the game on the highest risk class... this realy maybe it for a lot of ppl.

Dagger is nerfed because everything is nerfed. Just consider that with the incoming patch the elementalist will take less damage so it will effectively be less risky for him. As for ele being the "highest risk class", it's arguable. It does have the freedom to build very glassy, but it also have the freedom to built very tanky. The risk is inherently in the build and chosen gameplay not in the class, if the player complain about it's survivability when he got the choice to reduce it's damage for more survivability, the player do not have the right to complain about the class being "risky".

But they are not nerfing class hp / def that IS the "risky" i am talking about. You can build def as much as you like on any class and be unbelivly tankly as a class in its own way ele too. The thing is its the other end that has gotten nerfed in this update where if every one dose less dmg every one becomes more tankly so the allready passivly tankly classes will now become even more tankly.

This update needs to come with every class having the same armor and hp in wvw base line. Its that simple.

Considering there will still be more damage and effects after this patch compared to when the game came out and those health and armour differences were ok back then...I don't think it's as simple as you're making out.

I also think you're missing out on yes everyone will do less damage..but there is also less boons, less healing and sustain, higher cooldowns on impactful skills etc. A lot of everything is just being dialed back, not just damage.

That not good enofe for a fix and they are doing more then just doing complex dmg updates as well as healing updates they are doing nerfs at the same level for all classes on there cc skill even if that class has few cc or classes who have low stab are getting the same self stab nerfs as other classes with high stab. I think your making much more of what anet is doing then they really are.

Added note: The hp / def differences and a lot of effects are balanced with the ideal of trait lines giving hp and def in them self as well as healing power condi dmg condi duration things that armor has now. The old hp / def system for classes IS base off of that balance but that system was throw out but with out fixing the classes differing hp / def. Its a hold over and its messing up the game. To say a class gets a free 8k hp or 800 vit for just being a class with the max hp vs the lowest hp is balancing that did not take in account for trait lines that worked better for one class to take over others (all ele took water line giving them free vit and healing power making the class massively more tankly then it is now) is a joke of balancing. It is simply out dated because that what anet dose they move on to the next thing before they finnished the last they do it over and over and i fear this update will happen the same way.

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@Butterfly Kingdom.8349 said:

Revenant

  • Empty Vessel: This trait has been retired and replaced by Contained Temper.
  • Contained Temper: With this new trait, revenants gain fury when they disable a foe.

This doesn't really make sense to me. I understand removing Empty Vessel (though I disagree with it) since almost every legend has a stunbreak, but making Fury on Disable a core trait of Invocation seems a bit silly. An enormous amount of builds, particularly those in PvE, don't use CC at all. This trait is effectively useless, especially as a Grandmaster Minor trait.

This feels uninspired, boring, useless and does not play into the core theme of invocation well. I'm also curious about the ICD on this. If I hit someone with every strike of Staff 5 (9 hits), do I get 9 stacks of Fury? What's the duration as well? If this is a boring 5 seconds on disable that's really nothing to write home about and I'd say 90% of players would rather something more flavourful like you get from the other minor traits.

I understand the idea behind it. You disable someone/something and you get a big boost to your crit chance to spike them, but really you've probably already got Fury from the wild number of traits and skills that give it to you anyway.

This one needs more thought.

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@mexay.3902 said:

Revenant
  • Empty Vessel: This trait has been retired and replaced by Contained Temper.
  • Contained Temper: With this new trait, revenants gain fury when they disable a foe.

This doesn't really make sense to me. I understand removing Empty Vessel (though I disagree with it) since almost every legend has a stunbreak, but making Fury on Disable a
core
trait of Invocation seems a bit silly. An enormous amount of builds, particularly those in PvE, don't use CC at all. This trait is effectively useless, especially as a Grandmaster Minor trait.

This feels uninspired, boring, useless and does not play into the core theme of invocation well. I'm also curious about the ICD on this. If I hit someone with every strike of Staff 5 (9 hits), do I get 9 stacks of Fury? What's the duration as well? If this is a boring 5 seconds on disable that's really nothing to write home about and I'd say 90% of players would rather something more flavourful like you get from the other minor traits.

I understand the idea behind it. You disable someone/something and you get a big boost to your crit chance to spike them, but really you've probably already got Fury from the wild number of traits and skills that give it to you anyway.

This one needs more thought.

I agree and on top of that there is no real logic behind. Why a reliance on CC for fury in the invocation traitline? It doesn't make sense at all.This kind of minor traits is why I believe that ANet need to put more rigor/logic into the way they build traitlines. Minor are the trunk and major should expand from it. Sure there is a bit of developpement on fury in this traitline but that's not what the traitline focus on, the traitline focus on the special mechanism, not on CC and fury.

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@Jski.6180 Don't get me wrong personally I am not a fan of this Patch. My wvw toon/build will be near useless. I honestly have no idea what I can change to. If it takes 6 weeks to make adjustments that's to long. However a set time table can't happen until A-net and players see the effects. then a balance/adjustment time table is possible. If the first adjustment patch doesn't come until after the 4-6 week point Anet stated then you are correct it will just enforce the dissatisfaction and negative attitude

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:Thank you daddy Anet for forcing me to relearn the entire game after 7 years. Really what veteran players asked for.

Overly dramatic much? Relearning the game because dmg was reduced across the board? Cant oneshot stuff and has to learn actual mechanics now? Lel.

Im playing since release, even in beta, so id call myself a veteran player, and yes, i very much asked for this. And i know many more who did.

one shot builds are not what im talking about when i said relearn the game. they always changed Cool downs, and passives and a switched or added new traits. Did you read the entire patch note? Theres at least 10+ changes to traits / utilities/ cooldowns and skills. That literally means you have to relearn everything that was added. Your muscle memory from how the game was for 7 years is completely changed.

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@Navoe.4283 said:@Jski.6180 Don't get me wrong personally I am not a fan of this Patch. My wvw toon/build will be near useless. I honestly have no idea what I can change to. If it takes 6 weeks to make adjustments that's to long. However a set time table can't happen until A-net and players see the effects. then a balance/adjustment time table is possible. If the first adjustment patch doesn't come until after the 4-6 week point Anet stated then you are correct it will just enforce the dissatisfaction and negative attitude

Because its just a number update and the only way to deal with power creep is to out right remove effects from most of the HoT and PoF elite specs.

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@Hadi.6025 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:Thank you daddy Anet for forcing me to relearn the entire game after 7 years. Really what veteran players asked for.

Overly dramatic much? Relearning the game because dmg was reduced across the board? Cant oneshot stuff and has to learn actual mechanics now? Lel.

Im playing since release, even in beta, so id call myself a veteran player, and yes, i very much asked for this. And i know many more who did.

one shot builds are not what im talking about when i said relearn the game. they always changed Cool downs, and passives and a switched or added new traits. Did you read the entire patch note? Theres at least 10+ changes to traits / utilities/ cooldowns and skills. That literally means you have to relearn everything that was added. Your muscle memory from how the game was for 7 years is completely changed.

They barely changed the function of weapon skills and utilities, those are the main reasons you need muscle memories, for cooldowns and knowing when stuff is back off cd, i guess you have to relearn some of it. But its still too exaggerated to say that you have to relearn the whole game. You still have a very big advantage compared to new players.

You still know what you have to avoid, you still know what most skills and animations do, you still know your skillranges etc.

Longer cds? If you die because of those you will relearn them veeery quickly.

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NOOO NOT ELUSIVE MIND'S STUNBREAK IN PVE NOOOO!

Why does elusive mind have to get removed in PvE for breaking stunbreaks? Like when mirage came out, the whole fact that mirage dodge stunbreaked like daredevil was what I loved about mirage (also because I was an illusion mesmer and chronomancer gameplay was very different from core mesmer, mirage was a good extension of what I liked) , and felt like the core gameplay of fun! removing this would make it probably 80% less fun. I understand if you want to remove it in PvP & WvW entirely, but why remove it and make it so unpleasant to play in PvE? I don't understand. We're not all raiders, shouldn't the goal of balancing be to make it still fun to play casually in PvE, and balance it specifically for PvP? To be fair, as a person with lag city, I do rely on that stunbreak, and it makes it so much more fun to play mirage. It won't feel like mirage without the stunbreak, it's like removing the dodge mechanics from daredevil entirely, it's too much.And why the soulbeast swapping pets also removed in PvE? This also feels like another part of core stuff that is being changed for unfun value. Altho it won't probably as impactful funwise. Like, how is this stuff inbalanced in PvE casual play? I mean if you insist maybe remove it in Raids too, but this will really impact just casual fun value of gameplay in general negatively :(.

Can someone please explain to me why stunbreak mirage dodge is unbalanced in PvE and worth removing to make gameplay of mirage more unfun?

Everything else i understand, esp since I'm used to longer cds from MOBAs.

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You did keep the aim assit 450 range... bad deaign, nobody gonna run this skill. Its does not work on engineer, we have no reliable range weapons mostly grenade wich are really unfun to play with (mortar is a bad weapons set and basically clone of the grenade). I agree that damage needed to be tuned down but, remove orbital strike, mime sweep and hidding aim asst behind this 450 thingy... Once again Im sad with youre engineer change...

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Anet,

I'm concerned about this 0.01 power coefficient reduction on skills that have CC (aka...reduces a skill to doing no damage almost literally).

For example: Warrior Hammer has 6 skills (1-5 and the F1 burst) and THREE of the 6 skills on warrior hammer will do NO DAMAGE because they have CC!?! :astonished:

I mean, look at this :anguished: :

Hammer

  • Autoattack Chain: Reduced power coefficients from 0.9/0.9/1.2 to 0.6/0.6/0.8.
  • Fierce Blow: Reduced base power coefficient from 1.8 to 0.77. Reduced power coefficient against controlled foes from 2.16 to 1.82. Reduced weakness duration from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Reduced cooldown from 6 seconds to 4 seconds.
  • Hammer Shock: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.7.
  • Staggering Blow: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. :-1:
  • Backbreaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.5 to 0.01. :-1:
  • Earthshaker: Reduced power coefficient from 1.0 to 0.01. :-1:

With no damage on 1/2 of the warrior hammer skills, it's going to be the N.F.L. (No Fun League) weapon. CC is nice, but CC w/o damage is, well... pointless.

Please reconsider this. Thank you.

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@RedShark.9548 said:

@Hadi.6025 said:Thank you daddy Anet for forcing me to relearn the entire game after 7 years. Really what veteran players asked for.

Overly dramatic much? Relearning the game because dmg was reduced across the board? Cant oneshot stuff and has to learn actual mechanics now? Lel.

Im playing since release, even in beta, so id call myself a veteran player, and yes, i very much asked for this. And i know many more who did.

This is how pvp and wvw should have been from the launch separate games entirely essentially like in guild wars 1

Welcome to the wonderful world of strategy pvp/wvw zergs

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Yeah, you only NOW realized that disabling Tool Belt skills upon overheat was CRIPPLING the PvE experience too?

Maybe the "holo enthusiast" knows more than you would all think. I've admitted when my class was OP, and I'm also first to report the bugs and when skills are under-powered as well. Maybe buff Coolant Blast?

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Part of the problem with this patch is that for the sake of nerfing everything in sight (not actual balance, that's explicitly some vague future thing) Anet has lost track of the fun aspect of play. Excessively nerfing stability on Necromancers and other classes means that they'll spend more time watching the screen and waiting to be allowed to do anything. This is notoriously frustrating across all games, but instead of trying to find a way to work around it they've come down on the side of not letting players play. Ignoring Mirages entirely slashing cripple on Mesmer greatsword means that a class who's good at mixing kiting with burst damage in PvE is suddenly looking at standing in slugging range of monsters half the time. Boon stripping is far more of a PvP thing, but somehow they've decided that something that's irrelevant half the time in PvE is more fun. Instead of nerfing the strongest aspects Soulbeast's pet swapping they just decided to take the option away entirely, hurting tactical precision & just plain slowing down play. Most likely they couldn't be bothered, much like with the hammer that hit Mirages.

I feel like the twin themes of this patch are "too much effort to balance, no more fun for you" and "eh, sitting and waiting while you die is almost like fun". Nothing kills enjoyment like stunlock and nothing discourages enthusiastic players like taking away their tools instead of fixing them. Theoretically this is a game where you hit buttons, move around, and have things happen, but apparently that's only for the current dev darling classes. As usual core professions take it on the chin, but this time it's worse and hitting them harder than most of the elite specs.

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The general idea here is that we want stun breaks and stability to be a more deliberate action on the part of the player and not something that just happens automatically from a trait.

okay, but...

@Hadi.6025 said:So what is Arena net WvW developers doing about NPCS...

Even open world has way too many mobs in the game that lock you down and they tend to come in groups. Especially boss adds. You pop your stun break you have nothing for the next one that will arrive before your cool down ends.

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@"Moradorin.6217" said:I think what is being done looks totally half-baked. I think this looks poorly planned. Fairly random. Im pretty confident that balance is looking like it will be worse than ever.

One of the most obvious examples of poor balance and half-baked planning is Mirage. Mirage is dependent upon dodge for damage on top of the normal damage avoidance, yet "Mirage Cloak: This trait now reduces the mirage's endurance by 50 in competitive modes" This ALONE IS BAD ENOUGH, BUT DID YOU BOTHER TO CONSIDER THAT ONCE MIRAGE HAS ONE DODGE PER FULL BAR THAT MECHANICS LIKE Superior Sigil of Energy WILL GIVE HALF A BAR STILL WHICH IS HALF A KITTEN DODGE. THEREFORE WHILE EVERY OTHER CLASS WILL GAIN ONE OR MORE DODGE ON SWAP FROM THIS SIGIL MIRAGE WILL GAIN 1/2 a DODGE FROM THE SAME KITTEN SIGIL. WHO EVER IS PLANNING THIS BALANCE NEEDS TO RECONSIDER THIS CHANGE BEFORE ITS TOO LATE.

I would say more but I dont want the post to be deleted ;)

this is their way of renewing the game, it's up to us to break our asses to find effective builds, for the moment the mesmer condi is dead, this is what many people wanted so good .. the mesmer has that one dodge, the thief perma stealth has three without counting the skills

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