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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta


Vayne.8563

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Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,
Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that crap where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

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Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

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The easiest solution for this (maybe not the most liked for this Meta-Achiev) will be to just play SMs if you want, and if you don't, just don't play them.Anet will be able to get data from that and will then have to decide if it was a good decision to include certain achievements to the Meta-achiev.They'll then be able to create future achievements based on that stats-feedback. I don't believe they will retroactively change anything for this release.

In the end we can just hope Anet does what is the correct choice for Guild Wars 2, so that it keeps on going. May that be a future with SMs in the Meta-achievements, or without.

I will just continue playing how I have until now, and adjust my playtime based on Anets future decisions.

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@"Randulf.7614" said:Again, stop speaking for "casuals". I am casual minded, so are many of the players I play with and we all utterly disagree with you and have no issues with playing Strikes, nor would any of them even consider quitting the game because of it.

I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population but regardless of this, you see a thread I've linked that claims lots of people are dying. There are two types of players. Those who don't mind dying and those who see dying as failure. Those who see dying as failure may have played different games than you or learned how games work a different way.

People who play a lot of FPS games are probably inured to dying. I grew up on adventure games and games like Tombraider before there were game saves, where you had to get to the next check point. Where dying was a really bad thing.

ANd people are dying adn getting frustrated even if you're not. Do you know the percentage of people who get frustrated by dying like that in content...I don't. But I'm guessing it's larger than you think.

On top of that, there's the intermetent lag spikes which tons of people are getting. Most of the time I can survive those in the open world, but not all the time. In harder instanced content it's almost an automatic death and in Strike Mission that means I can't be rezzed or use a revive orb. I'm speaking as I said for my guild of 350 people many of whom feel this way and many who wish Strike Missions didn't exist at all.

If you're going to put them in the game, keep them seperate so people can choose to experience them if they want. That' s all I'm saying. You make it part of the zone achievement and some people, like me, will lose interest in the zone. You keep including them and some people will lose interest in the game.

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

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@Randulf.7614 said:Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant. You do not speak for any majority or bulk segment so I'd appreciate you not alluding to the idea that you do.

Actually you simply can't know that. You can suspect it. I might be speaking for a majoirty of the playerbase, or I might be speaking for a larger segment of the playerbase demographic, even if it's not a flat out majority. I'm absolutely convinced that more people would rather not deal with strike missions than like them though. Anet will figure that out fast enough I'm sure.

It doesn't really matter what I say or what you say. Anet has those metrics or they're getting them. If I'm wrong they won't change anything. If I'm right they probably will.

Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

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@Randulf.7614 said:Whether you believe you speak for us is not relevant.

Yet you continue to insist he should stop doing so ... If you think it's not relevant, then you shouldn't have an issue with it.

The fact is that he speaks for SOMEONE and what he calls them shouldn't be a problem with you if what he's saying doesn't apply to what you think in the first place. I mean, your big hang up is a label ... seems to me that's a very pedantic thing to take issue with. If that's the best you bring, you don't bring much.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

@Vayne.8563 said:I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

@Vayne.8563 said:I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

@Vayne.8563 said:Edit: Anyway you keep bringing this up, where in recent posts have I alluded to this at all. I stopped saying it a long time ago. You're still on this idea that I keep saying it. I've stopped.

You brought it up just a couple of posts ago......

@Vayne.8563 said:I"m speaking for what I believe to be the bulk of the casual population

Wait a sec? I can't say what I believe now? I didn't state it as a fact. I stated it as a belief. I believe this to be true. That doesn't mean it's automatically true. Saying people shouldn't state a belief on a forum as a belief is simply not on (as we say downunder).

I absolutely believe most people could care less about strike missions in the way I think most people could care less about raids.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

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@Jayden Reese.9542 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

He's a casual and speaks on behalf of all casuals. If any one knows what casual content it's him. Just because I can join/beat T3 fractals and dungeons and strikes via lfg with 4-9 others I never met nor speak too during means it is Hardcore content.

I'm not going on a limb when I say that I seriously doubt most of the playerbase has ever touched a tier 3 fractal. I have. Most of my guild has never entered a fractal.

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@WendyB.1650 said:Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,

Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@"WendyB.1650" said:Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,

Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"WendyB.1650" said:Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,

Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

You're missing the point of making better players.

Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

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@yann.1946 said:

@"WendyB.1650" said:Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,

Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

You're missing the point of making better players.

Are you at this point a better player then when you started? I dare to wager most people are. If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.

As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible.

Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.

On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?

I'm not interested in ten man instanced content period. I've never been interested in high man instanced content, even in Guild Wars 1, when they came out with Urgoz Warren and the Deep both of which I beat. I just prefer smaller group content and always have.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

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So I just did the light the torches achievement and everyone is right. You can do it solo. You'll die and restart a bunch of times, but you can do it. And it's absolutely 100% pointless. It's like rez rushing in the old dungeons. Sure you can do it. But what did I do? I cheezed it. Made me feel great, I can tell you. I don't want to do the content and even if I can cheeze a couple of the achievements like this it still sucked and I still don't want to do this and I don't want to see this as a pattern going forward. Yep,, I found it really annoying. I don't love the fishing event either and had to do it 20 times but at least I was doing content, not cheezing content.

Edit: Honestly that's the defense. This is okay because you exploit it. I don't think that makes it okay. It's a bad justification for what I believe is an unpopular decision.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:Create a casual run for the strike missions then and specify it as being casual.

People are well within their right to request people that join the groups that they created to meet certain DPS thresholds.

Strikes are very much casual content, or at the very least, the three that rotate weekly. Whispers is debatable but doable by randoms with no raid experience. It just depends on their ability to pay attention.

Strikes aren't casual content. Strikes are easier instanced content, but they're not casual because very often casuals don't organize. And the organization is the problem here. It's something many don't play a game to do. I will organize stuff myself, but I know my guild saw what raids did to them (as in caused a schism between better players and not so better players) and said screw this here we go again.

You can say this is casual content, but it's really not. At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

They're casual content. You don't need to organize for them unless going for all of the bonus chests. You wait in LFG just like you would for dungeons and fractals. The only difference is that it takes a little longer since you need 10 players instead of 5.

You don't even -have- to wait in the LFG... touch the portal is all you need to do to play and complete the easier Strikes, and is more than enough to finish the zone meta. You can also go... solo and finish some of the meta achievements on your own. Or get a friend or two, in a big guild you might have some.

You don't need to organize. You don't need 10 people. You don't need to wait. Strikes are not dungeons or fractals

At the very least you might say even if the early ones were more casual, the later strike missions are definitely not.

Good thing they aren't needed for the zone meta then. Is your problem that there are easy and hard Strikes? Is that what this is all about? That some Strikes are actually good content and not solo content?

The point is there's a trend and I don't like the trend. You want strike missions, fine. Keep them out of zone metas. PvP and raids are separate, why should this be the exception?

Not contesting the trend, we've already been over that, I expect the next batch of Strike Missions to have both easy and hard ones, just like this one. You fear that the next batch will -start- at the level of the last one from this one. I think Arenanet doesn't want to kill strike missions already. We'll see how that turns out.

I'm contesting the idea that Strike Missions are not casual content and the idea that they need any kind of organization to succeed. The easier strike missions are casual content and require zero preparation or organization. Touch the zone exit, kill the boss, get out. No planning, no LFG, no team building, no builds, no rotations, no roles, nothing. And you can finish these easier ones to complete the meta, or get a few of the participation achievements of the harder ones. So there is no non-casual content required to finish the meta. That some of the later strike missions are harder is true, they do require preparation and organization, but they aren't needed for the meta.

If it stays like this, with both easy and hard missions, casual and hardcore strike missions, would it be OK to have future Strike Missions in the meta? If indeed the problem is with the trend

Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

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@"yann.1946" said:

You're missing the point of making better players.No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

Are you at this point a better player then when you started?No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible."which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to help players improve, but it's a bad design to force them to improve.And while strikes may require improvement, they do not help players at all.

On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of JormagElemental ElegyFraenir FrolicHigh Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and ClawBreak It UpFlawless FallenKodan Dodger

BoneskinnerFlickering LightDeathless HuntHold onto the Light

Whisper of JormagReflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of JormagSlither-lessWhisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

OKay you're still not seeing what I'm seeing so I'll try again.

This specific round, sure you can get a bunch of them and cheeze some of them and in general make do. But I don't play games to make do. Right now, at this moment,. doing either of those strike missions even five times sours me from teh game. I don't LIKE the content. I don't want to do the content. I don't think I should have to. I have never had to do that content before.

You're saying this time we can get away with this, but that's all we're really doing. Getting away with it. This time. And I think that's a bad way to run a railroad. You seeem to be thinking I CAN'T get the meta. I know I CAN get the meta. It's a totally horrid process for me that was never a horrid process before. It turns me off from the game and makes me not want to play it.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"yann.1946" said:

You're missing the point of making better players.No. The game cannot make "better players". It can help improve mechanical skill of players, but that doesn't make them "better".

Are you at this point a better player then when you started?No. I don't think so. I may be more experienced as far as GW2 mechanics are concerned, but that does not make me "better". In fact, i tend to avoid players that associate higher skill levels with some kind of superiority over other players, because those kinds of "better players" are often anything but.

There are many ways of being a "good player" that aren't associated with skill. With the most important one revolving around not being a kitten.

If you design your game well people will improve without themselves noticing.Their mechanical skill may improve, yes. Other qualities, not necessarily.

As a developer you want this because it makes it easier to develop content wich feels meaningful to as many people as possible."which feels meaningful to people that concern themselves with mechanical difficulty and skill", you mean. I'm here mostly for story and laid back entertainment, and strikes are not very meaningful in that regard.

Even if raids where never introduced it would still be a good game design to make players improve.That would require a game designed in a way that helps faciliating that. GW2 is not that game - the class/build/combat system is extremely unintuitive, and designed in such a way that if the players want to improve, they need to do it completely on their own, with the game offering no help whatsoever in that regard.

Besides, there's a catch - it may be a good design to
help
players improve, but it's a bad design to
force
them to improve.And while strikes may require improvement, they do not
help
players at all.

On a side note, how would you feel about strikes if raids where never introduced?Pretty much the same. They should be a separate content, they should not be forced onto the main populace.

The game being what it is, and the differences between average and top players being as big as they are, those two groups should never be mixed together in a single content. Because it will only end up being painful for both sides.

We'll I meant better as mechanical better and more well-versed with the systems. Not as in a better person. I would think that was obvious but I guess not.

And no the meaningfull doesn't nessecarily means for those who enjoy mechanical skill.

Let's give an example.Take caduceus for example.That boss is meaningfull from a story perspective because of his background.Its attacks have meaning because of the visuals, story and impact.But this lead to a discontent with people wo only are interested in the story vs those only interested in the mechanical challenge.

If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.

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