Idea: Skills that disable stealthed opponents cause revealed?

[Okami Amaterasu.9237]

Hi all, I'm looking to see what you think about this idea for stealth and revealed:

Idea 1What if all skills that disable your foe when they are stealthed cause them to be revealed? In this way, someone who is dazed/stunned/pulled/knocked down/knocked back/launched/etc. will have revealed applied to them as a result?

I think this would help out a lot of classes that don't have access to revealed, but plenty of hard CC.I think quite a few hard CC skills do Require a target to be locked to use them, which can't work if your foe is stealthed since they're untargetable. So this change would mostly be of use to bigger AoE hard-cc attacks like Warrior's Hammer skills or Guardian's Shield 5 or Reaper's elite shout or Chronomancer's elite well, etc. etc.

After that there could be more stealth on the other classes, since only 4 (Thief, Mesmer, Ranger, and Engineer) even have skills/combos that provide stealth.

Idea 2Change a bit how revealed works, so that it doesn't completely remove your stealth uptime - just negating the stealth effect for its duration.

If this were in place, along with the first idea that hard cc skills apply revealed, you could hard cc an area with an AoE, and if someone was stealthed there, they'll be revealed for as long as they're disabled, but then pop back into stealth immediately so they can get away if you're not quick to take advantage of their disabled state.

For example, a Scrapper using the Stealth Gyro has stealth for 6 seconds remaining total, is knocked down for 2 seconds with Revenant's Hammer 5 "Drop the Hammer", becomes revealed for the 2 Seconds they are knocked down, and then automatically goes back into stealth for their 4 remaining seconds.

I think this would promote a more active way to counteract stealth if you have some form of an AoE interrupt skill (which many classes do), instead of now just waiting around for their stealth to run out, spamming AoEs randomly, or using the few revealed skills there are in the game (not a single one for Elementalist for example).

I don't think just damaging your foe should apply revealed, only interrupts/disables. I think it also makes sense practically, as you shouldn't be able to so easily camouflage yourself if you're unable to move or take action. But I think having revealed completely remove your stealth uptime is also a bit too powerful, so hopefully this is a nice balance.

What do you think? I'm not sure if this is merely a passing thought, an actual good idea, or just a terrible idea, so I'm looking for your feedback.

[UNOwen.7132]

Much like all other suggestions for stealth, this misses the point of what is, and isnt the problem with stealth. Stealths problem is out of combat stealth. Its when a thief (or a Mesmer or very rarely an Engineer) sneaks up on you and oneshots you without you ever even realising that they were there. Your suggestion however hits in combat stealth. The problem is, in combat stealth is already bad. Almost all ways of obtaining it are slow and telegraphed, and every single way of obtaining lets your opponent know your location immediately after you enter stealth. Which effectively means youre a sitting duck, letting your opponent hit you a couple of times without being able to fight back in the moment. As a result, thieves minimise the time spent in stealth while theyre fighting someone, usually trying to drop stealth instantly.

[Okami Amaterasu.9237]

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[Poledra Val.1490]

I am still all for the idea for 5 seconds when said player comes out of the stealth there damage is at -10%.

[Dantheman.3589]

Yeah out of combat seems to be a big problem for these stealth classes and is also a problem on thief in general- as say of Pw you can sword 2 to a safe spot and then dash out of combat in a few seconds hence regenerating everything and getting back into a team fight in what I remember is about 5 secs with full hp. Out of combat is a difficult problem to fix in general with how gw2 is set up, also I think the down state/ rally mechanic is too as it makes the game super hard to carry on your own which also brings up how good having team stealth is since personal stealth on its own cannot solve everything

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

The whole idea behind stealth is flawed.

Its extremely annoying for enemies, while also being barely of any use to the Thief. It merely exists to annoy, and to give reasons for balancing the class to be weak in bad ways. Its so bad that many of us have wished for it to be removed, so we can get some real defenses.

First of all, Revealed is poorly implemented. It should instead be blanketed over an area with AoE skills, which allow you to guess where the Thief is and then try and Reveal them but also give them a chance to dodge or escape it, rather than having alot of smaller skills that constantly pulse Reveal that don't have any chance of counterplay outside of the Deadeye's Elite that removes it.

Reveal must be based upon area denial just like how the mechanics of other professions are countered.

Secondly, the Thief should not become completely visible while Revealed by attacking. They should stay stealthed and just become translucent and targettable, like Phantasms but much less visible, this way when Revealed wears off they're still stealthed, discouraging the use of stealth merely as a split-second special attack mechanic (with bonus targetting annoyance) and promotes it as a combat advantage.

When they're ready to be invisible again, they would merely stop attacking, rather than spam more skills.

Using this system and adding a cooldown so they can't use a special stealth attack more than once per Revealed state would be much healthier for everyone involved, because it minimises annoyances and focuses on actual play and counterplay.

But what do I know, I've only been playing games for 30 years or so.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

well why don't they disable the ability to combo your own smoke field while ooc, change the fact that fall damage puts you in ooc, and rework long duration stealth skills. if they wanted to fix this they could.

[Dzheen.5291]

@Hannelore.8153 said:Secondly, the Thief should not become completely visible while Revealed by attacking. They should stay stealthed and just become translucent and targettable, like Phantasms but much less visible, this way when Revealed wears off they're still stealthed, discouraging the use of stealth merely as a split-second special attack mechanic (with bonus targetting annoyance) and promotes it as a combat advantage.

There is a problem with ideas about translucent thief. Human brain first detect and react to motion. No matter how much transparent thief will be if he moving, there are only 2 options: you see thief or you not. So no point to make thief translucent.Here on forum someone made suggestion to tide time in stealth to revealed time (if you stay in stealth more than 6 sec, your revealed time will increased), and limit time in stealth (~20-30 sec). I think this was so far the best idea. It will restrict stealth out of combat and will not affect stealth in combat.

[Xervite.5493]

Complete invisibility will always be op periodImo stealth should have a very faint shimmer during movement and only stationary targets should be invisible 100%As compensation double all stealth duration

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Players should drop out of stealth if they use any skill while stealthed. Not revealed, but just have stealth removed. This would add some counterplay to constant re-stealthing & disengaging. It would also force stealth classes to commit more to an attack if they stealth in the middle of a fight, since they couldnt heal, tp away, or use other utility without dropping out of stealth. It would also remove stealth stacking such as with d/p thief, which is arguably an unhealthy mechanic in pvp. There would have to be some exceptions, such as DE mark, but overall I think it would be a decent solution to a lot of complaints.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Okami Amaterasu.9237 said:That's true - I'm not sure what the best way to minimize out-of-combat stealth would be other than to simply nerf those skills and traits.

However, I disagree with the idea that thieves in general don't use stealth a lot while in combat. It depends on their build.

Most daredevils probably do not use stealth, as they are more focused on dodge-spamming attacks w/evades, along with pistol-whip and/or unload or some other combination of direct attacks.Deadeyes (at least the ones that I fight), use stealth a Lot. Even if they're using main-hand dagger looking for that big Malicious Backstab hit, they have to use stealth to get it which is fairly easy with the Silent Scope trait (wielding rifle first) and the Shadow Meld elite that removes their self-applied revealed.

There are even mesmers have a lot of access to stealth. Using Torch 4, Veil, Mass Invisibility, and/or the Prismatic Understanding trait (increasing stealth duration 50%) they can stay invisible for a long time until they're ready to burst again or simply run to get out of combat (in WvW typically).

One of the problems is that these 2 classes in particular can easily teleport Right after stealthing, meaning even if you attack the area they were just in, they're likely somewhere else already. This isn't bad in itself - it simply means you now don't have a good option to reveal them unless you have a lucky hit of Gaze of Darkness from Herald or Detection Pulse from Engineer. That, or you just wait around to get hit or until they run out of combat.

I guess that's what my idea was to do - give a way to apply revealed to every class but then make it weaker by keeping your stealth duration up once the revealed has run out. But you're right, that wouldn't help with out-of-combat stealth, so I don't know what a solution is for that.

Thieves use stealth, but only to be able to immediately stealth attack and drop stealth as a result. Stealth is a bad thing to have active unless youre far away from the enemy, want to run away, and are waiting for your initiative to regen so you can. And even then its usually not great because AoEs exist, as do channeled attacks. Even DE who does use stealth, uses it to get the stealth attack, and immediately pops it to get rid of stealth. Being in stealth is just something you want to avoid, because it makes you a sitting duck.

In the case of Mesmers Stealth is actually slightly better, since their clones and phantasms make tracking using AoE and Cleave a lot harder. But even then its only slightly. What helps them more is the fact that clones are sufficient to briefly confuse the enemy. Not for long, but they dont need long. That half second of doubt is enough.

They can, but the funny thing is, stealth is basically pointless at that point. If youre gonna teleport away, youre gonna be fine without stealth too. If youre trying to relocate ... well that doesnt really work all that well, because the only port the enemy cant see that thief has is Shadowstep. That is not a good use for shadowstep. Mesmer has Blink, but likewise not a good use, and Jaunt, but Jaunt doesnt teleport far.

I mean the only real way to do is what someone said above, make stealth field combos only work in combat. Which is fair, I guess? The problem then is what do you do with stealth, because while the out of combat version is a problem, the in-combat version is trash as is. Itd need to be buffed up somehow. And Im not sure how. The SA rework certainly didnt help in this regard.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

who is that person that hates lock on? I bet this thread is giving them a migraine.