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Jormag, Primordus, and DSD New power level.


Karkara.9067

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I read no so long ago a discussion about the death of almorra and that she may still have a part in the story, and it have come to mind something, Kralkatorrik have absorbed some of zhaitan and mordremoth's power's, so its easy to assume so did the other dragons.

We cannot assume that the others aren't as powerfull as kralk even though he got balthazars powers, and because of that also got residual magic energy from both the defeated elder dragons up to that point, now kralk's powers where completely absorbed by aurene, so in this case his powers where not transferred to the others.

What we can assume of this is that the abillity that jormag have shown to reanimate dead people (like she did in episode 1) is not a jormag power but an absorbed zhaitan power, (and in that case almorra might as well come back as an jormag zombie), after mordre death Jormag mind powers might have increased (since mordre was the mind dragon), and that may explain why she could influence other people than her fanatics (even the char miles away).

The timeframe is also good since kralk was the most powerful after absorbing balthazar, jormag just waited his death to act. (Since she was the only other awaked that we know)

That also may help with primordus, and the DSD character development since they may be able to use this powers to be more complex villains.

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Jormag is not reanimating people.

Anet talked about this during some interview. Spiders don't have muscles on their legs to force them back out after pulling them back in, instead, they forcibly pump blood into their legs to force them to extend back out.

What Jormag did to Almorra, and the Franier, was described as something similar. They are not being reanimated like undead are, but are instead being puppeted by Jormag using its power.

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Perhaps Reanimate was not the right word. I didn’t mean reanimate in make a undead body, but reanimate in term of jormag possessing the dead body. Which may still be in the realm of zhaitan's power's (since he deals with the after death).

Regardless this theory may also explain why she can affect the sylvari that should be immune to her corruption, and resistant to "mind influences" after mordre.

In addition, this "having the other dragon’s powers" thing was never addressed (to my knowledge) as being a kralk only thing.

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From what I can recall atm (I have bad memory so bear with me)

Zhaitan died and his power was absorbed by all the other dragons as well as a portion of it was absorbed by Tequatl giving him a power boost.Mordremoth, Kralkatorrik, Primordus and Jormag have all shown signs of experimenting with the death spectrum and it's very likely that DSD also possess this spectrum as well.

After Mordremoth fell Aurine, Primordus and Jormag got the bulk of it's magic as seen new variants of plant and death based Destroyer and Icebrood minions.Kralkatorrik also got some of this power too as seen by fighting the Facet of Root and Madness within him during the War Eternal Chaptor of living world.Again it's also likely that DSD got this power as well.

Then Balthazar came into the mix having been stripped of the bulk of his power and divinity he then supercharged himself by consuming a bloodstone as well as absorbing the power feedback while acting as a conduit between Jormag and Primordus gaining another power boost from both dragons and putting them back into a pre awakening state.

When Balthazar fell Aurine absorbed something from him, this hasn't fully been clarified but she's been connected to Balthazars power ever since, Kralkatorrik then sucked up most of the magic released by the fallen god.

Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.When Kralkatorrik is finally defeated Aurine absorbs the bulk of his power and evolves into a new Elder dragon while Jormag, Primordus and DSD absorbed the rest.

At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.Jormag and Primordus I believe are still in some form of weakened state, Primordus may in fact still be asleep as nothing has been heard from him since season 3.Jormag has become active again although it may also still be asleep under the ice and has been acting through it's Champion Drakkar while it continues to heal itself from the events of season 3.

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@Teratus.2859 said:Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

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@Fueki.4753 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Kralkatorrik at this point is juiced up on so much power and magic he manages to tear his way into the mists and starts consuming everything he can while destroying everything he can.I think it's not the amount of magic he fed upon that's responsible for his Mists dives.I think being able to dive in and out of the Mists is only Because of Balthazar's God magic he absorbed.

I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

He still had his magic to traverse the mists, as we have seen in Rytlock's flash back after R. breaking his shackles.Otherwise he wouldn't have been able to come back to Tyria.And as we have seen with Joko and Aurene, utilizing consumed specific magical abilities is very much possible for (Elder) Dragons.

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@Teratus.2859 said:At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.I would say Aurene is almost certainly thew weakest Elder Dragon right now. Her powers are far too new to her for her to have the same sort of mastery over them the other Elder Dragons, who have existed for countless millennia do.

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@Sajuuk Khar.1509 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:At this point in time I belive Aurine is either the strongest of the Elder Dragons or at least on par with the DSD who is probably more powerful than the others due to it having no interaction with any known force capable of withstanding or hurting it.I would say Aurene is almost certainly thew weakest Elder Dragon right now. Her powers are far too new to her for her to have the same sort of mastery over them the other Elder Dragons, who have existed for countless millennia do.

Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

We've not really seen her in action since her ascention though with exception to a bit of crystal branding so we don't know how powerful she currently is atm and can only speculate.The fact that Jormag seeks an alliance with her though suggests the Ice dragon considers her a threat or at the very least a powerful potential ally to help her fight a common enemy.Elder Dragons as far as we know have never sort out alliances with other Elder Dragons so this is a very curious move for Jormag to make, and im very much looking forward to getting to the bottom of it's motives.

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Regarding Jormag's motives: I suspect that regardless if he/she needs us and/or Aurene to face a bigger threat or not, the ultimate goal is to get close enough to Aurene to kill her and absorb her powers. If there's indeed a bigger threat that requires an alliance with Jormag, Jormag will probably use it to try and gain our trust or at least get closer to Aurene and will make a move as soon as that threat has been dealt with. Jormag might not even wait until then and instead try to get Aurene's powers to face the threat alone while we're distracted with actually fighting it.

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@"DaFishBob.6518" said:Unless Aurene's appearance is actually a trick of lighting or a projection, she's a midget among elder dragons. Jormag probably assumes Aurene could be strong armed into servitude if only Aurene got close enough to Jormag's currently immobile form.

She's definitely on the tiny side, but we don't know for sure that size correlates directly to power. It's suggested a few times that by All Or Nothing, Kralkatorrik is more powerful than any dragon has ever been, but at that point Kralk is still much, much smaller than what we see of Primordus in Flashpoint.

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@Patty.3268 said:Regarding Jormag's motives...

Honestly I think it's simply self preservation. So far Jormag has gone 0/3 with the Commander and I have no doubt they're aware that everyone and anyone who has gone up against the Commander caught a bad case of dead. I don't think Jormag trying to steal some power is unlikely but I think the alliance offer is legit.

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@"Teratus.2859" said:I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

Aurene was able to open portals into the Mists too and most definitely didn't have the insane amount of magic that Kralkatorrik had, not even a proper fraction hence the need of an entire army to take him down. It was 100% Balthazar's magic, though I wouldn't call it "god magic" since Balthazar was stripped of power.

@"Teratus.2859" said:Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

If the theory that size = power, then Aurene is definitely the weakest Elder Dragon, as she's the smallest - smaller even than the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, or the Shatterer. She's the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar.

That said, we have no idea how Aurene has treated the "foreign magic" after her ascension. While she had Balthazar's and Joko's magic when confronting Kralkatorrik (it's hard pressed to say she had Zhaitan's or Mordremoth's really since she had so little magic upon hatching - and of Mordremoth's magic that went north, most of it went to the Maguuma Bloodstone beyond Tarir, so she didn't even get 1/4th of Mordy's juice), we don't know how she treated the non-Crystal/Fury magic that Kralkatorrik had absorbed.

And it should be noted that while Aurene "facetanked Balthazar's explosion", she only consumed magic in the epicenter. After doing that, she couldn't take in anymore, her body began to react negatively (by growing rapidly) and she had to fly off. Kralkatorrik took the vast majority of Balthazar's magic and, as mentioned, we don't know how Aurene handled that magic when replacing Kralkatorrik.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:I am uncertain if it's only that, for the most part Balthazar had much of his God magic stripped away from him by the other Gods.. hence his need to power up on the Bloodstone as well as two elder dragons.I think it's a combination of both Balthazar's god magic and all the raw magic power he absorbed rather than just one or the other.If it was just Balth magic then i'd expect Jormag and the other dragons would also have this ability to enter the mists prior to Kralks death, but so far we've seen no evidence of this.

Aurene was able to open portals into the Mists too and most definitely didn't have the insane amount of magic that Kralkatorrik had, not even a proper fraction hence the need of an entire army to take him down. It was 100% Balthazar's magic, though I wouldn't call it "god magic" since Balthazar was stripped of power.

@Teratus.2859 said:Inexperienced sure but she's been right in the face of the strongest creatures when they've died for a while now.She ate Joko, face tanked Balthazars explosion and was first in line to Kralkatorriks absurd level of power when he died.It's been mentioned a lot over time that proximity does matter when a Dragon absorbes anothers magic so Aurine should be the most powerful of them right now or at least more powerful than Jormag and Primordus who were weakened in season 3.

If the theory that size = power, then Aurene is definitely the weakest Elder Dragon, as she's the smallest - smaller even than the Claw of Jormag, Tequatl, or the Shatterer. She's the same size as Vlast, Glint, and Drakkar.

We could also be dealing with a projection of Aurene as well. So we should keep that mind as she also stated this to the Commander when in that last instance. Aurene also has no clipping in the Eye of the North.

What have you been doing this whole time?Aurene: Learning. Mending. Listening. Elder Dragons are burdened with more than we could possibly have known.Aurene: You see me here, you speak with me, but I'm also in the Mists, repairing the damage Kralkatorrik caused.Aurene: I am...a part of everything. All the magic of this world, like blood in my veins. I feel it all the time.

So she is at the Eye of the North and also in the Mists as well or so it seems. Could just be the wording though.

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In my opinion he must be at Zhaitan's level (At the moment)... maybe stronger physically because of its size (probably larger than Zhaitan) but magically similar

Zhaitan only had his own power.Mordremoth had Zhaitan's + his own power.Jormag Pre Pof and Primordius had Zhaitan, Mordremoth + their own powers. But it seems that both lost Zhaitan's and Mordremoth Power thanks to Balthazar.Kralkatorrik post PoF had Fallen Balthazar, Mordremtoh, Zhaitan and a bit of Jormag's & Primordius powers + his own one.

The norn are the militarily weakest race (I know, individually they're the strongest race, but in a hypotethical war, Norn and Sylvari have no a chance against humans, asura and obivulsy, the charr) , and still they could defend themselves well against Jormag minions since GW2 Launch.

Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.

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@ZolracAtrox.2908 said:Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.I would say that Mordremoth really wasn't that much more powerful then Zhaitan. Mordremoth was able to just use his, previously unknown, connection to the sylvari to swiftly eliminate the Pact's greatest advantage, their airship army, which scarred and disoriented their forces.

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@"ZolracAtrox.2908" said:Jormag Pre Pof and Primordius had Zhaitan, Mordremoth + their own powers. But it seems that both lost Zhaitan's and Mordremoth Power thanks to Balthazar.Kralkatorrik post PoF had Fallen Balthazar, Mordremtoh, Zhaitan and a bit of Jormag's & Primordius powers + his own one.I would disagree with both these to certain degrees.

Taimi's Machine was pulling Jormag's and Primordus' signature energies from them, so it shouldn't have affected the magic they gained from Zhaitan and Mordremoth at all, just their own original ice and fire magic. Jormag still has some of Zhaitan's magic, though they're a lot more sparse in using it - Drakkar has some Zhaitan magic, for example.

With Kralkatorrik, he never exhibited using fire or ice magic (that he didn't have in core), and during both the big blast of The Crystal Dragon, and the facets of magic in Descent, we only saw Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and Balthazar. Balthazar, similarly used only the magic he used prior to the finale of S3, indicating that Balthazar somehow completely altered the form of magic from what he absorbed into his own war and fire magic. So Balthazar, while empowered by Jormag's and Primordus' magic, only ever had his own "flavor" of magic; similarly, Kralkatorrik and Aurene only had Balthazar's flavor of magic, not Jormag's and Primordus'.

Zhaitan's level isn't a Joke neither... but compared with Mordremoth or Kralkatorrik, welp he's like a little cat agaisnt a wolf.

Against core Kralkatorrik, I would argue Zhaitan is completely on par. I would say all six Elder Dragons were, and the only reason why Mordremoth was significantly tougher was because of his ability to take over the sylvari and having some of Zhaitan's magic, while Kralkatorrik was tougher because he got magic from Zhaitan, Mordremoth, and most especially, Balthazar.

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@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth was tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth
was
tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

That's not entirely accurate. Those "sleeper agents" were a case of taking advantage of an unintended opportunity. They were "sleeper agents" for literally only a few weeks/couple months - from when the Pale Tree was attacked to the Pact Fleet's destruction.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Aaron Ansari.1604" said:Hell, I'm with Sajuuk, in not being convinced that Mordremoth
was
tougher in any real sense. If we had to fight Zhaitan on foot, with battered, weary, and stranded soldiers, and without any of the specialized weaponry that did all the work for us, who knows how we would have fared?

Fair enough, however the only reason we ended up that way was the sleeper agents it had tucked away in the Pact ranks. Mordremoth was lying in wait for us, most likely being fed information from his Mordrem Guard.

That's not entirely accurate. Those "sleeper agents" were a case of taking advantage of an unintended opportunity. They were "sleeper agents" for literally only a few weeks/couple months - from when the Pale Tree was attacked to the Pact Fleet's destruction.

Oh I was just thinking in terms that Mordremoth knew the Pact was incoming and it was not surprise attack with an advantage being on Mordremoth’s side. I’m sure he picked up a good deal of info just from Camp Resolve.

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The fights against each of the Elder Dragons have all been different.

Against Zhaitan, we took several deliberate actions designed to weaken him before we engaged him. When we did finally engage him, it was with the full power of the Pact, a unified high-tech alliance of all the races unlike anything seen in Tyria before it. So first we put Zhaitan at a disadvantage, and then surprised him something the dragons had never contended with before. Sound military strategy. It was a long bloody setup, but in the end, the good guys won handily.

Unfortunately, that victory made the Pact overconfident. They tried to Leeroy Jenkins Mordremoth head on, neglecting the facts that Mordremoth was NOT weakened like Zhaitan, and he had at least some inside help and advance knowledge, as demonstrated by the attacks on the Zephyrites and Pale Tree. The predictable result was that Mordremoth literally swatted the Pact fleet out of the sky with the help of the corrupted Sylvari, forcing the Pact into a costly, divisive, come-from-behind campaign that made the war against Zhaitan look like a cakewalk by comparison.

Amazingly for a critter the size of a mountain who left a shiny purple trail everywhere he went, Kralk kinda snuck up on us. We were distracted by Balthazar and the other events of LS3 and PoF, in which Kralk was considered more a target to be rescued from Balthazar than a threat. He wasn't the center of our thoughts until the Brandstorms started outside Amnoon and we realized, "Oh yeah, we still have to deal with HIM." By which point Kralk was arguably the most powerful known being in Tyria, thanks to all the various magics he had absorbed. The "We're gonna need a bigger boat" scene from Jaws comes to mind as a drastic understatement. So we ended up on the defensive, having to react to Kralk's moves while frantically trying to engineer a way to stop him, while ALSO dealing with Palawa Joko and the politics of Elona. Dragon slaying totally at the improv, and for an encore, we'll try to dance the Minute Waltz in 59 seconds.

Now we're dealing with Jormag, and it's totally different from any of that. Unlike any of the other ED's, Jormag is actively talking to us, only minimally using the other Dragon powers it has absorbed, and is expressing at least semi-benign intentions, which is confusing the hell out of everybody. Against Jormag, the psychological war is proving at least as important as the physical war, and we're not adjusting to that change of venue very well. As if Jormag's mind games aren't enough to contend with, we're also tracking Bangar and trying to avert a Charr civil war. Busy busy busy...

Based on all that, the future power and behavior of beings we have yet to meet is pretty much impossible to predict. We'll burn those bridges when we come to them, which as Joko pointed out, the Commander is extremely good at doing.

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  • 3 weeks later...

@DaFishBob.6518 said:Unless Aurene's appearance is actually a trick of lighting or a projection, she's a midget among elder dragons. Jormag probably assumes Aurene could be strong armed into servitude if only Aurene got close enough to Jormag's currently immobile form.

In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

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  • 2 weeks later...

@Ithirahad.5132 said:In fairness, Aurene stated that while sitting in the Eye she's simultaneously flying around the Mists repairing Kralkatorrik's damage. If any of this works at all intuitively, which granted it doesn't necessarily, that would mean that at the very least a pretty big facet of her is separated, so the physical form we see only represents a fraction of her power. The only representation we've gotten of her full form was during the LWS4 end cinematic, and that was somewhat abstract, but was definitely bigger than the Aurene we see now.

The reason she's so much smaller may also simply be because she is still way younger than the other Elder Dragons. We don't know the Deep Sea Dragon's power level, but from a brute force standpoint Aurene is stronger than Jormag and Primordous. But she is only a few years old, and they are both at least 10,000 years old. And given there's no mention from the ancient races of them managing to kill an Elder Dragon (although Joko did claim to have been the one who turned Kralkatorick into an Elder Dragon, if he can be believed, so that might have happened in the last cycle), we can safely say the remaining Elder Dragons are all at least 20,000 years old. They've had a lot of time to grow. A side note is that they've also had much more time to learn how to use their power. So Aurene shouldn't underestimate Jormag.

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