Thief

[UNOwen.7132]

@Rickster.8752 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Rickster.8752 said:I'd like to see feline grace get a cooldown of 10 seconds or something. Perma vigor from a minor trait is a joke. For a minor trait it is way too good.

I would also like to see shadowstep get a CD increase and shortbow 5 get an init increase.

Lastly I think infiltrators strike needs to be nerfed.

Pretty much all of those are non-starters. Shadowsteps CD is already incredibly long for a stunbreak, and shortbow 5 is so integral to thief that any attempt to nerf it has to come with

major

compensation buffs. And Im talking damage buffs of more than 30% accross the board level of major.

Ok then just lower the condition removal from 3 to 1 then.Shortbow 5 is too good. It could be given 1 extra init cost and its still really strong and thief can still do their role. Problem is currently thieves role is to "win the game" which they can do better than any other class due to how OP it is.

I would also like to see stealth capped at 3 seconds.

Also a non-starter. Thief already has way too much trouble dealing with conditions. Shadowstep is fine and shouldnt be touched.

I mean, it is too good. I dont disagree. The problem is that its also the core of thief. You cant nerf it without basically destroying thief as it currently exists, which means you need big compensation buffs. Even a 1 initiative nerf would be catastrophic.

And no, thieves role isnt "win the game". In fact, if the thieves team is lacking, the thief has no real way to make up for it. Thief is a decap and +1 bot. It is certainly the best class at decapping and +1ing, but it pays for it by being the worst combat class, being bad in both teamfights and 1v1s. Short of Mesmer because Consume Plasma counters them.

Again, a nonstarter. That would make Shadow Refuge cease functioning, and it would have negative impact on a bunch of different traits and skills. Stealth needs to be solved somehow for out of combat situations. Im not sure however how.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:Thats the thing though. Thieves are very good at not dying. But not dying is not winning either.

@UNOwen.7132 said:And no, Core D/P Thief is anything but top tier survivability.

Top tier survivability. It's definition only means not dying, and nothing else. You have this delusional idea that when I say "Thief is top tier survivability." And you say "Thieves are very good at not dying" that's somehow different in the English language.

You say Thief is very good at not dying, then say that CC and Conditions are simply a death sentence. That's where you're A.) wrong and B.) Hypocrite. Thief doesn't die, we all know this, stop trying to twist my words into saying Thief is a top tier face tank.

Withdraw at the moment IS a free reset and you're wrong for acting like it isn't. If you are bad, perhaps not - any thief after Withdrawing can see if they're in danger of being hit by a reveal, use endurance as required - juke into an unexpected duration during that 3s stealth, stack more stealth. Withdraw makes it easy. Maybe we understand each other better now :smile:

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Thats the thing though. Thieves are very good at not dying. But not dying is not winning either.

@UNOwen.7132 said:And no, Core D/P Thief is anything

but

top tier survivability.

Top tier survivability. It's definition only means not dying, and nothing else. You have this delusional idea that when I say "Thief is top tier survivability." And you say "Thieves are very good at not dying" that's somehow different in the English language.

No, thats not actually what survivability means. If it did, then AFK builds would have unbeatable survivability. Cant die if you never fight, after all. No, what survivability actually means is "how well can you stay alive while fighting". Thief has incredibly poor survivability. If the thief fights, he dies. However, good thieves usually dont die, because they dont fight in the first place.

You say Thief is very good at not dying, then say that CC and Conditions are simply a death sentence. That's where you're A.) wrong and B.) Hypocrite. Thief doesn't die, we all know this, stop trying to twist my words into saying Thief is a top tier face tank.

Those 2 things are not contradictory at all. If the thief ever gets hit by CC or Conditions without Shadowstep up, he dies. But a good thief doesnt get hit by them in the first place. He will have run away long before that was a possibility.

Withdraw at the moment IS a free reset and you're wrong for acting like it isn't. If you are bad, perhaps not - any thief after Withdrawing can see if they're in danger of being hit by a reveal, use endurance as required - juke into an unexpected duration during that 3s stealth, stack more stealth. Withdraw makes it easy. Maybe we understand each other better now :smile:

Its not. You Withdraw, and your opponent is gonna be hitting you with cleave and AoE. You really wont have the opportunity to dilly-dally around and see whats about to happen. You certainly arent going to be able to stack stealth, that both gives away your location and depletes your initiative. Now what you are able to do, is if you have Initiative or Shadowstep, combine Withdraw with those to run away. Here is the thing though, youll be able to run away without those as well. Now on the other hand, try to withdraw without Initiative or Shadowstep to back you up, and see how long youll live. Spoiler: Not very.

[Chaith.8256]

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Thats the thing though. Thieves are very good at not dying. But not dying is not winning either.

@UNOwen.7132 said:And no, Core D/P Thief is anything

but

top tier survivability.

Top tier survivability. It's definition only means not dying, and nothing else. You have this delusional idea that when I say "Thief is top tier survivability." And you say "Thieves are very good at not dying" that's somehow different in the English language.

No, thats not actually what survivability means. If it did, then AFK builds would have unbeatable survivability. Cant die if you never fight, after all. No, what survivability

actually

means is "how well can you stay alive

while fighting

". Thief has incredibly poor survivability. If the thief fights, he dies. However, good thieves usually dont die, because they

dont fight in the first place

.

You are under the wrong impression that Thief has to be engaging in sustained fights in order to contribute. It's a one shot spec, you are able to get plenty of kills without sustained fights. You are under another wrong impression that a Thief's survivability is running away and forfeiting fights, but in reality, the Thief is just setting up his next burst, still very much a threat - not running away. Stealth is a survivability tool, not just a tool for running.

You say Thief is very good at not dying, then say that CC and Conditions are simply a death sentence. That's where you're A.) wrong and B.) Hypocrite. Thief doesn't die, we all know this, stop trying to twist my words into saying Thief is a top tier face tank.

Those 2 things are not contradictory at all. If the thief ever gets hit by CC or Conditions without Shadowstep up, he dies. But a good thief doesnt get hit by them in the first place. He will have run away long before that was a possibility.

Withdraw at the moment IS a free reset and you're wrong for acting like it isn't. If you are bad, perhaps not - any thief after Withdrawing can see if they're in danger of being hit by a reveal, use endurance as required - juke into an unexpected duration during that 3s stealth, stack more stealth. Withdraw makes it easy. Maybe we understand each other better now :smile:

Its not. You Withdraw, and your opponent is gonna be hitting you with cleave and AoE. You really wont have the opportunity to dilly-dally around and see whats about to happen. You certainly arent going to be able to stack stealth, that both gives away your location and depletes your initiative. Now what you are able to do, is if you have Initiative or Shadowstep, combine Withdraw with those to run away. Here is the thing though, youll be able to run away without those as well. Now on the other hand, try to withdraw without Initiative or Shadowstep to back you up, and see how long youll live. Spoiler: Not very.

Again, a good thief after withdraw will chain a dodge after the Withdraw if the enemy is in position to reveal or somehow can follow up with an instant kill shot both at a distance and without a target (not often.). To address your other point if you only have a few Initiative you just need to Withdraw, take a couple seconds to get to suitable terrain, combo Smokescreen instead of initiative costly Black Powder. So once again, you don't need a ton of Initiative or Shadowstep to back you up, and you will live. You forgot about Smokescreen.

[UNOwen.7132]

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:

@Chaith.8256 said:

@UNOwen.7132 said:Thats the thing though. Thieves are very good at not dying. But not dying is not winning either.

@UNOwen.7132 said:And no, Core D/P Thief is anything

but

top tier survivability.

Top tier survivability. It's definition only means not dying, and nothing else. You have this delusional idea that when I say "Thief is top tier survivability." And you say "Thieves are very good at not dying" that's somehow different in the English language.

No, thats not actually what survivability means. If it did, then AFK builds would have unbeatable survivability. Cant die if you never fight, after all. No, what survivability

actually

means is "how well can you stay alive

while fighting

". Thief has incredibly poor survivability. If the thief fights, he dies. However, good thieves usually dont die, because they

dont fight in the first place

.

You are under the wrong impression that Thief has to be engaging in sustained fights in order to contribute. It's a one shot spec, you are able to get plenty of kills without sustained fights. You are under another wrong impression that a Thief's survivability is running away and forfeiting fights, but in reality, the Thief is just setting up his next burst, still very much a threat - not running away. Stealth is a survivability tool, not just a tool for running.

Im not, thats the point. Thief contributes by making even fights uneven (its not a oneshot spec, because youre nowhere close to the damage needed to oneshot any commonly played. Youll rarely break 50%. Its a burst spec that +1s via burst). And no, Thieves way of not dying (again, still not surviving) is running away, and yes, when they do that they forfeit the fight. If they won the fight, the thief would not die by virtue of noone being able to kill them. And stealth is an atrocious survivability tool, as it basically gives you no defense against anything other than ranged, targetted, non-channeled attacks. Anything else can and will hit you. Its basically for sneaking up and running away.

You say Thief is very good at not dying, then say that CC and Conditions are simply a death sentence. That's where you're A.) wrong and B.) Hypocrite. Thief doesn't die, we all know this, stop trying to twist my words into saying Thief is a top tier face tank.

Those 2 things are not contradictory at all. If the thief ever gets hit by CC or Conditions without Shadowstep up, he dies. But a good thief doesnt get hit by them in the first place. He will have run away long before that was a possibility.

Withdraw at the moment IS a free reset and you're wrong for acting like it isn't. If you are bad, perhaps not - any thief after Withdrawing can see if they're in danger of being hit by a reveal, use endurance as required - juke into an unexpected duration during that 3s stealth, stack more stealth. Withdraw makes it easy. Maybe we understand each other better now :smile:

Its not. You Withdraw, and your opponent is gonna be hitting you with cleave and AoE. You really wont have the opportunity to dilly-dally around and see whats about to happen. You certainly arent going to be able to stack stealth, that both gives away your location and depletes your initiative. Now what you are able to do, is if you have Initiative or Shadowstep, combine Withdraw with those to run away. Here is the thing though, youll be able to run away without those as well. Now on the other hand, try to withdraw without Initiative or Shadowstep to back you up, and see how long youll live. Spoiler: Not very.

Again, a good thief after withdraw will chain a dodge after the Withdraw if the enemy is in position to reveal or somehow can follow up with an instant kill shot both at a distance and without a target (not often.). To address your other point if you only have a few Initiative you just need to Withdraw, take a couple seconds to get to suitable terrain, combo Smokescreen instead of initiative costly Black Powder. So once again, you don't need a ton of Initiative or Shadowstep to back you up, and you will live. You forgot about Smokescreen.

A good thief will immediately switch to shortbow and teleport away. A bad thief will think that a single dodge is enough and that they are safe, then eat multiple AoE skills and cleave (or hell a prepared channeled attack) and die. You dont have the time to wait a couple seconds to get to suitable terrain. Do that, and you get cleaved down. And even with Smokescreen, you need at least 2 heartseekers for it to be worth. Assuming you start on 2 initiative, thats still 6.7 seconds youd have to wait. Not a chance. Sides, the point stands, use Smokescreen and you still are telegraphing your position and making yourself an easy target.

[Crab Fear.1624]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once

.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd now

end result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impact

What? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill.

The only time you’ll evade steal from stealth, is with the help of lady luck, realistically speaking.

@bluri.2653 said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.

If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.

Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.

a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!

I’m sorry but let’s be real here, you’re by far the biggest thief apologist in the game. Regardless of your personal performance in a game mode that has more to do with strategy and less to do with actually fighting people.

How is anyone supposed to take your word for it?

I suggest you take a stroll in a game mode about fighting and killing people, then try to push your “please don’t nerf my main”Inb4 the obligatory “who are you, i’m gud, you bad” comment. We’ve faced off on dozens of occasions and you always struck me as a runner rather than a fighter. But by all means, stick with the apologist buble. I was an apologist for my class once too.

dude it was a copy paste because you are all memes lmao

I'm sorry but given your track record over the years, I couldn't leave it to chance :wink:

There can only be one forum meme.

Give me some thumbs up if you guys know it's me.

[Sindrener.1592]

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@bluri.2653 said:

@ArlAlt.1630 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

@Shao.7236 said:Steal is pretty unfair and needs to be looked at properly.

Instant cast.Boontiful Theft is technically unblockable by stealing Aegis.Can be used while stunned.Always dazes even with stability because of Boontiful Theft power crept design.As Deadeye can be spammed to shut anyone down without i-frames with Quickness.

You can't have all of these things at once

.

Stealth attacks need a reveal instead of just instant damage that you cannot compensate for.

You can if traited, most thieves chuck in 8 traits for steal so ofc it's going to e overloaded. Steal alone is just a port skill that does nothing but grant a stolen bundle on a 30 second cd, or close to, cant remember the original cd now

end result is what matters.your logic can be applied to everything.weaver is not tanky at all! this is low toughtness class with low hp. But the end result is they have something close to 18k, and vomit heals barriers and all the dodges.Reality is that steal has really low cooldown, is almost guarantee to hit as long as you pay attention and has immense impact

What? I never said any of the above lol, I just stated steal alone is poo, but over loaded with traits. Also, if it does fail to land then that's half of the builds traits that become useless until steal is up again, so yeah there is a slight inconvenience to having many traits crammed into 1 skill.

The only time you’ll evade steal from stealth, is with the help of lady luck, realistically speaking.

@bluri.2653 said:You seem to be new, so first let me explain something to you about the Anti thieve crusader's on this forum, They have not shut up for 8 years straight, they will never stop complaining until thieves are deleted. they don't want balance, they want a one way slaughter.

If you know how thieves function they are by far the easiest class to demolish. but why bother learning how to fight something when you can spam "nerf thief" threads and get carried by passive bullshitery.

Want an example? look at the stealth thread, not one of those muppets realized the problem with stealth is Haste, which is getting cut down next patch anyway. (concentration changes) So rather then target the actually problem they whine until arena net lowers the stealth duration which isn't going to do anything long term.

a skill that shots faster then it's tell? not a problem it's stealth fault!!!

I’m sorry but let’s be real here, you’re by far the biggest thief apologist in the game. Regardless of your personal performance in a game mode that has more to do with strategy and less to do with actually fighting people.

How is anyone supposed to take your word for it?

I suggest you take a stroll in a game mode about fighting and killing people, then try to push your “please don’t nerf my main”Inb4 the obligatory “who are you, i’m gud, you bad” comment. We’ve faced off on dozens of occasions and you always struck me as a runner rather than a fighter. But by all means, stick with the apologist buble. I was an apologist for my class once too.

dude it was a copy paste because you are all memes lmao

I'm sorry but given your track record over the years, I couldn't leave it to chance :wink:

you are from NA, pretty sure you mistake me for someone else. I haven't been a apologist for thief since early HoT when we had esports. Thats just 4 years ago LUL

[Rouien.5234]

BRO dang this thread really took off I left for a few days and come back to tons of replies.. still idk why people are so upset like. I re-downloaded the game to indulge in the toxic power creep after perhaps a few years of not, played low hp healer scrapper and when i saw a thief i'd just wave my hammer in their direction and they'd rotate else where like...

i still don't what's with all this hate.

[Tayga.3192]

@Rouien.5234 said:scrapperi still don't what's with all this hate.

Play any mesmer, any necro, firebrand, spellbreaker, thief (without stealth) or even a ranger (without sic em).

Engineer is a counter to thief because scrapper is tanky and holo runs passive reveal.

Revenant vs Thief is still as weird as it was before, so no comment.