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Including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta


Vayne.8563

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@"yann.1946" said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"yann.1946" said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

@Vayne.8563 said:Well we just wiped on the Boneskinner and half the group left.

Fraenir of Jormag
Elemental ElegyFraenir Frolic
High Shaman, High Stakes

Voice and Claw
Break It UpFlawless Fallen
Kodan Dodger

Boneskinner
Flickering LightDeathless Hunt
Hold onto the Light

Whisper of Jormag
Reflections in the IceVortex, InterruptedLegendary Whisper of Jormag
Slither-less
Whisper Boxing*

Sanctifier*

The Strike Mission achievements, those with * require completion, the others do not. You need 37 achievements to complete the meta, 45 are available total in Shadow in the Ice, 15 Achievements are inside Strike Missions. This means you need 7 achievements from strike missions to complete the meta.

Fraenir of Jormag is a very easy encounter and the achievements there are also relatively easy. The Voice and Claw is a bit more difficult encounter, but still not really hard. Sanctifier can be completed by killing the Fraenir and Kodan 20 times. That's 7 achievements without ever touching the harder Strike Missions.

Now, if you find some of the Fraenir or Kodan achievements hard to complete you have the following options:Reflections in the Ice on the Whisper of Jormag is almost a freebie, Vortex Interrupted is also very much doable provided the team has unlocked the proper mastery, you will get enough vortexes before he reaches the harder parts of the fight. Both of these aren't hard to acquire and they do not demand killing the boss, get a team of 10 randoms (to more easily break the bar) and slowly lower his health while finishing the 2 achievements. Flickering Light can be completed without joining a group (as you did) but I'd suggest going there with a group anyway, I think that's a harder one to solo or do in a random group.

There is enough achievements to finish without entering the Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag missions, and in case it is required, you don't need to kill them to progress.

OKay you're still not seeing what I'm seeing so I'll try again.

This specific round, sure you can get a bunch of them and cheeze some of them and in general make do. But I don't play games to make do. Right now, at this moment,. doing either of those strike missions even five times sours me from teh game. I don't LIKE the content. I don't want to do the content. I don't think I should have to. I have never had to do that content before.

You're saying this time we can get away with this, but that's all we're really doing. Getting away with it. This time. And I think that's a bad way to run a railroad. You seeem to be thinking I CAN'T get the meta. I know I CAN get the meta. It's a totally horrid process for me that was never a horrid process before. It turns me off from the game and makes me not want to play it.

There are at least two parallel discussions mixed:

A: Is including Strike Mission Achievements as a Required Part of the Zone Meta a good or bad game design choice?B: What could be the easierst way to "cheese" through strikes to still get the meta achievement?

I think the OP was initially talking about (A), but some parts of the discussion went into (B) like "completing is possible, so it can not be a bad game design choice".

About A:

We really do not know why Anet included the strike achievements as a required part of the zone meta. It was maybe because of their plan to push strike missions, it was maybe because just some dev wanted to increase the participation numbers of strikes (to justify his idea/work to his boss….), it could be an error (because two episodes now share the same map and it it looks like they splitted one episode into two during development), it could be that Anet just tested, how far they can go until there is uproar from players, etc.

Whatever reasons Anet had for doing it, I think it is a bad design choice that Anet did not allow alternative ways (without strike mission achievements) to complete the zone-meta and I also think it is a bad design choice that PvP and WvW players also have to do this now for the meta-achievement-loot (even if its just a silly emote ATM) because there is no PvP/WvW reward track for this episode.

A question for the players who think it is a good design choice to include the strikes as a requirement in the zone-meta-achievement: What harm would be done to the game, if Anet would reduce the achievement count of the required achievements for the zone-meta and would add PvP and WvW reward tracks for this episode?

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

Thats why i wrote :I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

Thats why i wrote :I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base. They need more people to get into raids to support raids. And I"m okay with that. Not sure why it needs to be part of the zone meta. I'd have been happy wtih a seperate achievement category. I didn't post this thread to start a conflict with raiders. I simply asked for a change to the meta that would be better for me. Why are raiders fighting to change a meta they don't particularly care about in the first place.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.

In the end, to me the point of vayne i responded to had more to do with the fact that he dismissed wanting player to be mechanical better with wanting them into raids.Which is not the same thing, and wanting your playerbase to be mechanical better should not be seen as a bad thing.

Edit: My standard outlook of gamedesign is quite omnivorous. I personaly think a game should strive to let people experience as much of its content as possible. i wouldn't mind their too be pvp and WvW achievements with the meta , even if i don't enjoy those mode personally, if that were parts that where released with the episode. I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it. This was more to explain where my views come from. And my intent is to let as much people enjoy the content, which means you can't just make it for one side( as far a their are sides here.)

And yet again, my issue isn't including achievements for different content, but moving the bar on existing content that people have been doing for ages. Let's pretended they changed normal dailies so you had to do a dungeon or stuff in a dungeon. Could you imagine the outcry. Zone metas aren't new. I did all the the ones for Season 3 and Season 4 and two so far for the Ice Brood Saga. None of them forced me into 10 man content at all and I don't like it.

This doesn't encourage me to do more, it encourages me to do less.

Thats why i wrote :I understand that lots of people wouldn't want such a thing so i won't advocate for it.

I am aware that people are against it even if for some of these people they might find it fun. (these people aslo exist even if you are not one of them)And i am aware of the stigma that comes from some gamemodes/names.

But the net benefit/detriment is something we can only know with metrics we don't have acces to. So while the critisism was usefull, i don't think what this discussion has become is.

What does bother me is this us vs them mentality that this discussion shows.

Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base. They need more people to get into raids to support raids. And I"m okay with that. Not sure why it needs to be part of the zone meta. I'd have been happy wtih a seperate achievement category. I didn't post this thread to start a conflict with raiders. I simply asked for a change to the meta that would be better for me. Why are raiders fighting to change a meta they don't particularly care about in the first place.

Why are you under the impression they are fighting? Alot of people in this discussion already said they don't mind it being changed.

You are mistaken if you think their aren't any raiders who care about the Meta achievement though. And what I have read was mostly people explaining why they consider it good gamedesign.

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.Purely mechanical skill as in "players doing the boss mechanics"? Sure. Purely mechanical skill as "players playing their class better, getting better dps, better boon upkeep etc"? Nope, because Strikes
do not teach that
. There's absolutely
zero
information in strikes that might point out a player towards improvement in that direction. Well, apart from "You failed. Again.", which may tell the group that at least some players (if not all) did something wrong, but doesn't really say what that thing was, much less how to avoid it. Probably the most useful information it might give the player is "you should probably avoid strikes and other similar content", which is hardly what the devs want.
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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.? When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

I agree that strikes alone won't help on their one. They might give motivation though and can improve purely mechanical skill.Purely mechanical skill as in "players doing the boss mechanics"? Sure. Purely mechanical skill as "players playing their class better, getting better dps, better boon upkeep etc"? Nope, because Strikes
do not teach that
. There's absolutely
zero
information in strikes that might point out a player towards improvement in that direction. Well, apart from "You failed. Again.", which may tell the group that at least some players (if not all) did something wrong, but doesn't really say what that thing was, much less how to avoid it. Probably the most useful information it might give the player is "you should probably avoid strikes and other similar content", which is hardly what the devs want.

Purely mechanical skill as in how to move to dodge AoE, to dodge and cc etc.

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

The basic rules of build craft are :)

  1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
  2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
  3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

Then there are external websites like http://en.gw2skills.net/ where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

And of course you can check build examples on https://metabattle.com or https://snowcrows.com/ and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

Yes it would be. But Anet failed with that big time. Even Anet devs do not understand the skills/traits/etc. in the different game modes fully. Thats why they make a balance patch on the live servers and then look at what the players aka guinea pigs sort out about what needs to be changed after the patch.

EDITED: typo. guild craft -> buildcraft

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@Zok.4956 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

The basic rules of guild craft are :)
  1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
  2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
  3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

BUt how do you convey that to people?And your forgetting traits and how senergies work. :)

When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

Then there are external websites like
where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

And of course you can check build examples on
or
and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

Yes but those are not things players do directly at the beginning.

Wouldn't it already be quite usefull to let people know atleast the basics of all the gamesystems?

Yes it would be. But Anet failed with that big time. Even Anet devs do not understand the skills/traits/etc. in the different game modes fully. Thats why they make a balance patch on the live servers and then look at what the players aka guinea pigs sort out about what needs to be changed after the patch.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@yann.1946 said:If you make the gap of mechanical skill smaller both parties can get some meaningfull experience from the boss fight.Yes. Unfortunately, this game cannot make that gap smaller. It would require not things like Strikes, but actual mechanical changes to the things that are the reason behind such a big effectiveness disparity. And those changes would need to be way bigger than what the game can afford to do now. I mean, we're talking now not about the expac level changes, but about something on the level of "Gw2 Remake" or "GW3". So, major rewrite of combat/class/gear/build system.

Maybe, i mean the new player achievement thing might help a little. I do think some things can be done without having to rewrite the basis of the game.Not much. You could probably try to teach players to cc, dodge, and to not stand in AoE markers. You might also try to teach them more complicated boss fight mechanics, but that's generally pointless. It doesn't matter how good in that regard players would be if the boss encounter is designed around personal dps of 12-15k but players are doing 2-4k. And the dps disparity is rooted in some core design features and can't be removed without at least adjusting those - which is definitely not something minor.

is their a way to let people experience with some basics of buildcraft etc.?

The basic rules of build craft are :)
  1. A dead player does not do any DPS. If you die too often, put on more gear with defensive stats. After you have more experience, try to reduce the defensive stats a little, from time to time.
  2. A dead mob can not kill you .The more defensive stats you have, the longer it takes to kill mobs/bosses and the more the chances that you could get killed.
  3. In some challenging content you should not use gear with any defensive stats at all. But only if you already are able to position yourself in the fight (for example: go out of red circles, dont stand in front of a boss that makes a lot of cleave damage, etc..) and you know how to dodge, block etc.

BUt how do you convey that to people?

(1) and (2) could be experienced in a little tutorial instance. where a player should kill a (small) boss. In the instance is a slider between "offensive" and "defensive", and the slider changes the gear stats of the player. Add that with an achievement, where the players has to kill the boss with "offensive" "defensive" and "in between" slider settings and make the fight somehow fun.

And your forgetting traits and how senergies work. :)

Thats when the mess of this convoluted system, that Anet has created, starts. I do not have a solution for that and I would replace it completely (which will not happen, of course).

When my little brother started playing it took a really long time before he even knew what traits where etc.

You and your little brother could go to the golem in the Special Forces Training Area that you can access from the Aerodrome in Lions Arch and you can experiment (and also practice rotation) a little with the golem.

Then there are external websites like
where you can play with skills and gear-stats without buying/crafting gear and you can check the resulting stats, boons etc.

And of course you can check build examples on
or
and try do understand, why some of them are seen as good and what the build creator wanted to achieve with the build.

Yes but those are not things players do directly at the beginning.

I agree.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@"WendyB.1650" said:Requiring this is already driving some of the casuals away. Whatever your definition of casual is, this is mine; A casual player is one who plays mainly in the PVE world getting levels, achievements and exploring without having to have 'That build with your rotations down to achieve this much DPS' A;ready there are strike LFG's that are saying they are running dps monitor and to you have this or that. I am a casual player who also is an achievement hunter. Yes, I play a lot, but no I am not good at rotations,

Builds, and Raid mechanics. YET before this I have always been able to achieve the meta map achievement. Yes other maps have had jump puzzles and other things that were bothersome, but you usually could do other map achievements to get it and is not you could get a group of regular 'casual' players to help you get through, but with the newer Strikes they have made it so that just getting a group together that can complete it is hard.

My husband quit for 4 years after HoT came out. I got him wto come back lately to play yet he has only completed story in the new area and ran around for a few min. I tried to get him to do a strike and he said he would rather go play another game than ever try that kitten where he would feel inferior if we had to carrying him. Why pplay a game if they force you to feel inferior he asked me. He and I are older and just not so coordinated.

They have already basically banned us from Legendary Armor since if I ever want to get it I would have to do paid Raids since there is no way I doing an LFG for it. I have joined a wonderful WvW group that does not care about builds and stuff but it will be a long hall to 2000 to get that Legendary Armor and most casual players will not take the route I am.

This is the game failing to raise you as a player sadly. The mechanical skill required to do raids is not that high as there are rotations out there where you only hit 2 buttons to do sufficient raid dps. The jump from open world to raids is like the jump from first grade to fifth grade. No ones going to say fifth grade is hard but the game does nothing to fill in second, third, and fourth grade for you so it feels like it's hard. The game also has a bunch of noob traps when it comes to trait and gear choices and does nothing to call out that you might be going down the wrong path.

See I don't understand this at all. The game isn't failing to raise me as a player because I'm not interested in being raised as a player. You seem to think everyone who plays a sport wants to compete at that sport. SOme people play professional ball, some people play amateur ball and some people just want to have a catch and there's nothing wrong with that. The ball wasn't designed for only competitive sports. It was designed to enjoy yourself and everyone enjoys themselves differently. Most people don't walk up to two people playing catch and say you're doing it wrong. It would be a weird thing to say.

You're making it sound like somehow we should all strive to be great at a game that many of us play just to relax. Have some laughs with friends. You're making it sound like I couldn't do raids if I wanted to but I can do them. I have no interest in them. I don't want to do them. I don't need to get better at the game. I need the game to stop telling me to play baseball when I want to have a catch.

The more rewards they lock behind content i have no interest in the less this game is my game. The more they make stuff like strike missions part of something like zone metas the less this game and that zone interests me, because that's not my interest. I've run T4 fractals. I've run all the dungeons many many times. I'm not interested in Strike Missions. I'm not interested in raids. The game hasn't failed to raise me as a player. Hell raids didn't even exist in this game for the first 3.5 years and for the first 3.5 years I did everything in the game. But they added something I'm not interested in, and now they're adding something I'm not interested in to try to interest me in something I'm already not interested in.

I can look up a build on snowcrows and meta battle. I can practice a rotation on the practice dummy. I can watch a raid video. I have no interest in doing any of it. Not even a little. Even if it makes me a "better" player. I'd rather have a catch.

Was literally not replying to you at all. The post I was replying to expressed frustrations at being locked out of raids due to having slower reflexes and rotations.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like damn, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do.

As per Anet they are aimed at increasing the population of Raids, therefore not aimed at the Raid population. They are aimed to bring -new- people into Raids. If they wanted to really increase the population of Raids, with content aimed at Raiders, they'd make more Raids.

The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

Yes because they already Raid, here you go again as if Strike Missions is content for Raiders. So no other players in your guild enjoy T1 fractals or dungeons or guild missions? The Fraenir of Jormag has a much lower difficulty than any T1 Fractal or Dungeon and is a lot easier than a lot of the Bounties. Anyone that can play T1 fractals, dungeons or guild bounties can defeat the Fraenir. The Voice and Claw takes some more, but it IS easier than most T2 Fractals and more than half the dungeons.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do.

As per Anet they are aimed at increasing the population of Raids, therefore not aimed at the Raid population. They are aimed to bring -new- people into Raids. If they wanted to really increase the population of Raids, with content aimed at Raiders, they'd make more Raids.

The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

Yes because they already Raid, here you go again as if Strike Missions is content for Raiders. So no other players in your guild enjoy T1 fractals or dungeons or guild missions? The Fraenir of Jormag has a much lower difficulty than any T1 Fractal or Dungeon and is a lot easier than a lot of the Bounties. Anyone that can play T1 fractals, dungeons or guild bounties can defeat the Fraenir. The Voice and Claw takes some more, but it IS easier than most T2 Fractals and more than half the dungeons.

Sorry but I"m saying my guild has no interest in them at all, but they're inserting them into content many of us regularly do. They're designed to increase particiipation in raids which many of us have no interest in doing.

What's the difference to me, and those guilides, if they're not made for raiders but put in the game to get people to raid and we're not enjoying them or not interested in them? To me, there is no difference at all. They put these in the game to increase the participation in raids. They're raid training wheels. Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

So to me, this is changing my game for raiders. Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all. They added this as a pathway to raids. Whether the content is for raiders or easier or harder isn't my concern. My concern it makes the game less enjoyable for me and others I know. Others who like to work on meta achievements in new zones.

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@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

The whole implemention of this might work for people who do research but many casuals don't want to do research. They just want to play.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

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@yann.1946 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

@Vayne.8563 said:Well I'm annoyed because content I enjoyed previously was changed to appease what Anet already admitted was a small percentage of the player base.

Anet admitted Raids have a small population. To my knowledge they never said anything about the Strike Mission population. If you think that Strike Missions are aimed at Raiders then you are simply wrong, they are the bridge to bring more people into Raids, not content for raiders. The majority of current Strike Missions are of a lower difficulty than both T1 fractals and the initial dungeons, so the audience they aim at is completely different to Raids.

They're aimed at increasing the population of raids, as per Anet. What makes you think that there's a difference in the mind if people who don't like raids, have already judged raids and never intend to raid. This ls like saying, we're changing the nature of the movies on my channel to have more movies of a type you don't like to get you into movies you don't want to watch. That channel then becomes less your channel. Less a channel you want to watch. If you bought the Hallmark Channel and they started playing more horror to get people who watch romance and drama into harder core stuff, those people would complain. Sure they content isn't for raiders. It's not for me either. Or anyone I know in my guild. Or my wife. Or the 20 or 30 people I play with every week. None of us are sitting there going wow this strike mission content is great, I'd like more of it. We're all like kitten, this is something we're not interested in that we have to do. The three or four people in my guild who don't mind them are the people who already raid. The rest of us tried and few and thought pass. But you can't pass. Shrugs.

About the film analogy. What if they introduced some romances with a few horror points? Or some monster romance (The Shape of Water for example).

These would still fall perfectly fine within the parameters of the channel. and would allow them to slowly play a different movie from time to time. Or maybe they just want to air these movies.

Now you're talking in my genre. THe business I was in. THe same people that read romance, don't read dark romance. It's a completely different niche. While cross genre offerings do exist, and they're more common now than ever, it doesn't change people's basic likes and dislikes. A person who likes dark fiction might read a dark romance. A person who only likes happy endings is only going to like happy endings. I've had to market this stuff myself and it's very complicated.

You're not going to get most casuals into raids in my opinion because that's not the kind of content most casuals are interested in.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

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@Vayne.8563 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

How is it then that someone didn't read which Strike Missions are easier than others to direct the rest of the players there? And also read about the achievements in the harder ones that are actually freebies.

Strike Missions need some way to tell players which ones are easy and which ones are hard, that will solve the problem of players walking into the harder ones then getting a bad experience. Meanwhile, for those going for the meta achievement, the one that reads the achievements can direct the rest of the players properly and lead them to the easy ones, telling them to avoid the harder ones.

Once players realize (or are told) that they can finish the meta by completing missions that are similar to fractals/dungeons then this problem will be severely diminished. Leaving the only ones that will have an issue, those that have a problem with any kind of instanced content, including running T1 fractals and dungeons. The next question would be how many players go for meta achievements and actively avoid all forms of instanced content? Hard to answer, but hopefully Arenanet has the answer and will adjust future zone meta achievements accordingly.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:Raid-like content as they get harder and I've tried the harder ones and they are.

Did you try the easier ones? They aren't any harder than T1 fractals and most dungeons. Also, they are all you need to finish the meta.

Because they wouldn't need to do this is raids weren't in the game at all.

We'd have more fractals and/or dungeons if Raids weren't in the game at all. Something similar in challenge as Strike Missions.

Okay first of all, let's talk about casual players. I'll wager most casual players never come to the forums at all. They never go to reddit. If they do they don't spend a long time here. Most casual players log into the game and play the game.. You keep asking me if I did this or I did that. No. I listen to people all day who tried a strike mission not realizing how different they were, had a bad experience and walked away without any intention of going back. You can't just throw a bunch of strike missions into a game with greatly varying difficulties if you're not going to include a breadcrumb trail.

That's completely different issue with Strike Missions as there is no indicator of which one is easy and which one is hard. But there is an easy solution for that: Arenanet adds a little text next to each Strike Missions indicating which one is hard and which one is easy, similar to how the tiers of Fractals work. That way these people who tried Boneskinner or Whisper of Jormag as their first ever Strike will see that they are "tough encounters" and instead opt to play the "easy encounters".

And I'm asking because repeatedly you are talking as if Strikes are Raids and raid content, when more than half of them are on same level as Fractals and Dungeons. It's weird to think that someone that has run Ascalonian Catacombs story mode (the first dungeon in the game) or a Fractal like T1 Cliffside will have an issue with either of the easy Strike Missions. And those are more than enough to finish the meta.

Most casual players log into the game and play the game..

So you are saying that those casual players that never go outside the game finish the zone meta? That's impressive.

Actually many people just play with their guild to get it done. That's what we do. Someone probably does look it up, then leads a bunch of other people around.

How is it then that someone didn't read which Strike Missions are easier than others to direct the rest of the players there? And also read about the achievements in the harder ones that are actually freebies.

Strike Missions need some way to tell players which ones are easy and which ones are hard, that will solve the problem of players walking into the harder ones then getting a bad experience. Meanwhile, for those going for the meta achievement, the one that reads the achievements can direct the rest of the players properly and lead them to the easy ones, telling them to avoid the harder ones.

Once players realize (or are told) that they can finish the meta by completing missions that are similar to fractals/dungeons then this problem will be severely diminished. Leaving the only ones that will have an issue, those that have a problem with any kind of instanced content, including running T1 fractals and dungeons. The next question would be how many players go for meta achievements and actively avoid all forms of instanced content? Hard to answer, but hopefully Arenanet has the answer and will adjust future zone meta achievements accordingly.

The problem is I'm ususally the guy helping people in my guild and this time I'm not doing it because I don't have an interest in the zone because of the inclusions of strike missions. I won't get it and I'd imagine a dozen other people at least in my guild won't because of that. The thing is If I"m turned off others are too. You keep saying strike missions are casual content and I'm thinking how are you more qualified than me to make that assessemnt.

Maybe we should poll all self-identified casuals and ask them, but I strongly suspect you'd be surprised.

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