Where is the Balance? - Mirage Dodge

[mera.6328]

Now one dodge cost 100% of endurance.This is too severe a disadvantage.Mirage lost 1 Dodge + Deceptive Evasion (if equipped) compared to before.Revised Mirage Cloak reasonable, if to powerfull.

Dodge is an important skill. All other have 2 or more dodges in same time.So tell me the balance in this skill?

[DiLlYbOb.8693]

You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

[Ordin.8341]

From what I've read this patch completely kills mirage in pvp/wvw and mesmers will have to switch into core builds which means they over-nerfed things not sure how accurate this is though ?

[Seer.7906]

I'm no Mirage main but I do play it almost weekly and this change has me fuming. This is blatantly the wrong way to balance Mirage. Were conditions the issue? Then edit the condi length and amount! Was evading an issue? Then edit mirage cloak and mirage skills that evade! CC's don't damage so that's solved already. So who in their right mind thinks the correct thing to do is remove the sacred and almighty double dodge off a profession in GW2?

[Zaklex.6308]

@SirPoopsalot.5830 said:I'm no Mirage main but I do play it almost weekly and this change has me fuming. This is blatantly the wrong way to balance Mirage. Were conditions the issue? Then edit the condi length and amount! Was evading an issue? Then edit mirage cloak and mirage skills that evade! CC's don't damage so that's solved already. So who in their right mind thinks the correct thing to do is remove the sacred and almighty double dodge off a profession in GW2?

Re-read your last sentence to yourself and you'll have your answer.

[Astralporing.1957]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

Yes, because the proper way to balance a class if it gets too strong is to nerf it into the ground. [/sarcasm]

[bravan.3876]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

Sounds logical considering that all the Conidmirage apes couldn't play even that passive condispam spec without passive facetank noobcarry sustain core traitline Chaos in additon (includes myself, playing Mesmer without Chaos or Inspiration is way way harder in my own experience). Mirage had less dodges than most other classes already, what made it unkillable (it was not unkillable but lets overexaggerate for the gold propaganda) was the synergy with a passive and by itself broken core traitline. If the amount of dodges from Mirage where the issue you would not need Chaosline in addition to compete with just as braindead other metabuilds from other classes and you would have had unkillable Powermirages as well. That Condimirage could do too much condi dmg just by clones (means also while being cced itself) also was not because of too many dodges, it was because of too op and too passive designed condi clone ambushes (and the stupidity, that condi clone normal autoattacks also still do insane passive amount of dmg, while they should have been nerfed to nearly zero already just like power clones and that is not even a Mirage specific balance problem).

[mera.6328]

If Condi Mirage is a problem, reduce condi dmg. In principle or in connection with Mirage Cloak.I play the Power Mirage and a dodge less is a big weakening. Yes too much weakening.It is also a big break from PVE mode.

I don't play PvP. I play WvW only (in addition to pve).This is not an exclusive PvP situation with Mirage Dodge.So please move back to Guild Wars 2 Discussion

[Tayga.3192]

@"DiLlYbOb.8693" said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

Mirage was outevaded by 6 out of 8 classes.

"hard to kill" lol

[georgessj.4198]

@apnok.5390 said:Now one dodge cost 100% of endurance.This is too severe a disadvantage.Mirage lost 1 Dodge + Deceptive Evasion (if equipped) compared to before.Revised Mirage Cloak reasonable, if to powerfull.

Dodge is an important skill. All other have 2 or more dodges in same time.So tell me the balance in this skill?

Where was the balance all these years when mesmers were broken? I didnt see you posting back then.

[storm.3120]

@georgessj.4198 said:

@apnok.5390 said:Now one dodge cost 100% of endurance.This is too severe a disadvantage.Mirage lost 1 Dodge + Deceptive Evasion (if equipped) compared to before.Revised Mirage Cloak reasonable, if to powerfull.

Dodge is an important skill. All other have 2 or more dodges in same time.So tell me the balance in this skill?

Where was the balance all these years when mesmers were broken? I didnt see you posting back then.You must be new then, plently of mesmer players were vocal about chrono/mirage and had the entire discussions of how and what to nerf

[Aza.2105]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

For the first time they feel like a normal class in game.

[Heika.5403]

@Aza.2105 said:

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

For the first time they feel like a normal class in game.

A normal class have something competitive to play. They now don't have that, at least viable to reach high ranks. And their specializations are now undesirable and crippled in its own ways. So what they are feeling is be a lousy class. They already felt like that during some time in the past, before the specializations were released. Maybe you didn't watch it because you still didn't play at that time. Now, with that feeling, some people will reroll and others quit the game to find something they like to play in other games, probably with a theme similar to the mesmer's style.

[Shadow.1345]

Mirage cloak is absolutely the problem on Mirage and not just condition damage. Mirage cloak isn't just a dodge, it's also an attack too. It's more than even that. If on any other profession you see an interrupt coming while casting your heal and you have to dodge to avoid being stunned it puts your heal on a 6s CD. If that same situation happens with Mirage Cloak you evade the interrupt and still cast your heal. Now add Infinite Horizon to the situation and not only do you evade the interrupt and finish casting your heal but your clones will all use their ambush skills. Furthermore, if you finish casting your heal before the window of opportunity to use your own ambush skill, you can use that too. The best solution to bring Mirage inline with other professions was to limit the endurance bar. now you have to use it skillfully instead of just spamming it for damage from Infinite Horizon.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:Mirage cloak is absolutely the problem on Mirage and not just condition damage. Mirage cloak isn't just a dodge, it's also an attack too. It's more than even that. If on any other profession you see an interrupt coming while casting your heal and you have to dodge to avoid being stunned it puts your heal on a 6s CD. If that same situation happens with Mirage Cloak you evade the interrupt and still cast your heal. Now add Infinite Horizon to the situation and not only do you evade the interrupt and finish casting your heal but your clones will all use their ambush skills. Furthermore, if you finish casting your heal before the window of opportunity to use your own ambush skill, you can use that too. The best solution to bring Mirage inline with other professions was to limit the endurance bar. now you have to use it skillfully instead of just spamming it for damage from Infinite Horizon.

you have proved to ALL of us how little you know about mirage.sure you can get all the things you mentioned, its cool. but what you dont get is all the shit OTHER specs get, you dont get entire new weapon set + healing + mobility from holo.you dont get healing, CC, boon removal, mobility, reveal, extra stats and extra evades from SPByou dont get extra bazilion abilities from FBetc etc.and what -1 dodge means that Mirage to make the most out of mirage cloak, has to SPAM it, OFF COOLDOWN.so instead of Skillfull use Like hmmmmmm, doding CC while casting healing skill, now you just spam it whenever its up or else you are ACTIVELY LOSING ENDURANCE.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

honestly with all the core nerfs mirage really didn't need to be hit this hard. hope anet has the brains to rethink some trade offs and not try to build a house on sand.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Ordin.8341 said:From what I've read this patch completely kills mirage in pvp/wvw and mesmers will have to switch into core builds which means they over-nerfed things not sure how accurate this is though ?

Personally I switched to core necro, now I dont even have to bother dodging :D0 effort, maximum reward. more damage about 15x more effective HP, corrupts team utility etc etc, better in every aspect.

[ZDragon.3046]

Could ask chrono and scourges the same question really. Its not like mirage is the only one its just late to the party as usual.

im still thinking that mirage will pop back up in 3-6 weeks when some one figures out how to play it with on dodge lol.Mesmer has always been a late bloomer after a big change so i wont be surprised if its also the case this time

That said mirage needed to have some kind of weakness for the power it gained in taking the mirage traits in general.

Anet messed up from its core design when they put ambush attacks on dodge instead of the shatter skills where they should have been. Mesmer should have always been forced to play around using its shatter skills and for the longest time in the meta mirage proactively encouraged not shattering to keep insane constant condi application while just evading anything that came at it (by evading i mean kiting not just dodging)

Then you have the whole issue of being able to dodge while cc that was never addressed no matter how much people called it out. Nothing was worse than landing a well timed cc and being punished by ambush attacks from distant clones for it. (Feels bad man)

Overall though there were very few builds / professions that could really shut mirage down quick and a big chunk of mirage players wanted those hard counters nerfed for "some reason"

I suspect this wont be tine final trade off for mirage but this is a temporary attempt to balance it more in line with the other elites. Anet might give the dodge back in a future patch but it should still come with a cost of some sort mirage certainly cant go without a trade off for the prowess it gains from the current version of ambush attacks and mirage cloak.

[Shadow.1345]

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

you have proved to ALL of us how little you know about mirage.sure you can get all the things you mentioned, its cool. but what you dont get is all the kitten OTHER specs get, you dont get entire new weapon set + healing + mobility from holo.you dont get healing, CC, boon removal, mobility, reveal, extra stats and extra evades from SPByou dont get extra bazilion abilities from FBetc etc.and what -1 dodge means that Mirage to make the most out of mirage cloak, has to SPAM it, OFF COOLDOWN.so instead of Skillfull use Like hmmmmmm, doding CC while casting healing skill, now you just spam it whenever its up or else you are ACTIVELY LOSING ENDURANCE.

Well I'm not a mastermind of this game like yourself, so perhaps you can explain to me how other elites getting things like a "bazillion"(that's not even a real number) abilities somehow changes how blatantly OP Mirage Cloak is?I mean you used Holosmith as a counterpoint because they basically get "reaper shroud" w/o an extra health bar to compensate at the cost of their elite tool belt skill. Photon Forge provides a little mobility but no healing. Where do you get the healing from? Mirage got a new weapon with the Axe, extra mobility with Mirage Thrust and Jaunt (in addition to the mobility from core Mesmer), and a heal that also provides a Mirage Mirror for evasion + ambush.Then next you bring up Spellbreaker but none of those things you mention come from the Elite, they are just core Warrior things that you also get on Mesmer. Could you be more specific?Firebrand does get a bunch of abilities but again how does that change that Mirage Cloak gives a decided advantage when it can also be used to avoid interrupts during stomps and interrupts/damage during revives in addition to what I said before?

[Daishi.6027]

@DiLlYbOb.8693 said:You do understand how difficult it was to kill a mirage before this patch right, not only can they stack up torment, bleed and confusion with min of 10 stacks each, their dodges also made them impossible to kill and tbh mirage deserves this nerf considering the fact that this op bs has been in the game since pof

Mirage had on par or less evasion than the rest of the cast and that is such a stupid double standard where Dare Devil gets to evade and attack all they want, with easy access to in combat mobility ports to avoid damage, and the most liberal use of blinds. Even with normal evasion, Mirage by comparison to any medium armor has plenty of vulnerable moments, Even Ranger gets wayy more evasion, and more reliable damage.

If Condi is the problem nerf condi. Not the classes evasion economy that was already inferior to many.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Shadow.1345 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

you have proved to ALL of us how little you know about mirage.sure you can get all the things you mentioned, its cool. but what you dont get is all the kitten OTHER specs get, you dont get entire new weapon set + healing + mobility from holo.you dont get healing, CC, boon removal, mobility, reveal, extra stats and extra evades from SPByou dont get extra bazilion abilities from FBetc etc.and what -1 dodge means that Mirage to make the most out of mirage cloak, has to SPAM it, OFF COOLDOWN.so instead of Skillfull use Like hmmmmmm, doding CC while casting healing skill, now you just spam it whenever its up or else you are ACTIVELY LOSING ENDURANCE.

Well I'm not a mastermind of this game like yourself, so perhaps you can explain to me how other elites getting things like a "bazillion"(that's not even a real number) abilities somehow changes how blatantly OP Mirage Cloak is?I mean you used Holosmith as a counterpoint because they basically get "reaper shroud" w/o an extra health bar to compensate at the cost of their elite tool belt skill. Photon Forge provides a little mobility but no healing. Where do you get the healing from? Mirage got a new weapon with the Axe, extra mobility with Mirage Thrust and Jaunt (in addition to the mobility from core Mesmer), and a heal that also provides a Mirage Mirror for evasion + ambush.Then next you bring up Spellbreaker but none of those things you mention come from the Elite, they are just core Warrior things that you also get on Mesmer. Could you be more specific?Firebrand does get a bunch of abilities but again how does that change that Mirage Cloak gives a decided advantage when it can also be used to avoid interrupts during stomps and interrupts/damage during revives in addition to what I said before?

things mirage gets from the spec

• -50 endurance
• lower dodge distance ( giga low dodge distance if chilled/crippled )
• Dodge while controlled
• Dodge while casting
• Ambush while dodging ( 500-1500 dmg ) -> still has to cast it. 0,5-1s cast time
• IH clones do the ambush too (250-1500 dmg )
• 2,5s regen on dodge, -20% condi duration ( propably about 30-40% uptime, mb even less due to 1 dodge omegalul )
• 1,5s vigor on shatter, propably 5-10% uptime in real scenario and + some condi damage about 150?

What warrior gets

• 225 power, 225 ferocity
• Dagger as MH, upgrade over all main hand weapons
• Extra defensive cooldown ( fullcounter )
• Extra CC cooldown ( full counter )
• Pulsing might ( tether )
• Boon rip on CC
• Refresh of F1 every F2
• Immob on CC
• Reveal ( tether )
• Damage on boonrip
• easy adrenaline management, locked to T1 adrenaline ( dagger f1 and acring with 1 bar are super strong anyways )
• extra adrenaline gain when removing boons
• 10% damage bonus due to tether
• you lose 1 adrenaline bar, now you have 2 instead of 3.

This is what I mean, super duper fun dodge is all mirage gets.it doesnt get bullshit like extra 450 offensive stats on top of resetting cooldowns on top of reveals, several hard CC, pusing might extra boonrips extra evade cooldown.and other jazz like that

[hypehype.9047]

This is a lazy way to nerf a build, imagine warriors with 0 dodge? and yet thiefs have 3 dodges and stealth lol.

dodge is a different mechanic to the other skills, the fact that anet has give thiefs that already have stealth 3 dodges and mes one just proves they have no clue what they are doing.

[Genesis.5169]

Undo these changes anet everything about our class is punishing to us we lose out on so many things pressing half of our buttons. If we shatter we lose our clones and with that use of IH so every fight we take you as DEV are forcing us TO NOT USE four of our skills pretty much ever unless we have no clones up and we are shattering to daze or get vigor. Our Dodge our offensive and defensive tool giving us one dodge no forces us to pick offense or defense on our dodge and our shatters? No other class fights it self like this. And because of this you've locked our utilities skills since we have only 1 dodge we have to run blink and decoy or signet. NO CLASS HAS IS FORCED TO REDUCE THERE OWN POWER OR SURVIVABILITY TO WORK LIKE THIS ACTIVELY, sure statwise when you pick your amulet and you pick your traitline everyone makes those choices.

BUT YOUR FORCING MESMERS TO MAKE THAT CHOICE NOT ONLY IN CHARACTER BUILDING STATLINES TRAITLINES BUT IN ALL ACTIVE USE OF HALF MY BAR? INCLUDING MY GOD DAMN DODGE? EVEN USE OF MY UTILITIES ARE COMPLETELY 100% REACTIVE NOW.

I can't shatter when i want.I can't dodge when i want.I can't use my utilities when i want because i have one dodge and now my utility bar is a shitty version of my endurance bar.I can't even use jaunt as i want because we have terrible condition removal and most of us run Lyssa so jaunt doubles as condition cleanse.

And you wonder why mesmers just end up making 3 clones and just doing nothing its because we can't do anything at all EVEN IF WE WANTED because all of our tools reveal us or you guessed it completely reactive.

Eles can press most there bar without much worry at all.Wars can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rangers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Thieves can press most there bar without much worry at all.Rev can press most there bar without much worry at all.Engineers can press most there bar without much worry at all.Gaurdians can press most there bar without much worry at all.

Mesmers top bar is mostly unusable, left side is mostly unusable because one dodge makes it a reactive bar not a proactive bar, our Elite is half blocked because of one dodge and no condition cleanse and screw you guys with elusive mind no one is gonna run it is trash and you know it fix it, Can't dodge if we want to even just to get some space some extra movement that every class dodge dodge rolling cause its slightly faster then running specially if your safe and to boot were punished for saving our dodge because we have one bar of dodge and not dodging is actively losing dps but in dodging we actively lose defense (please tell me what class has to deal with this?).

People complain about mirage passive gameplay this is why because almost every decision we make has a huge draw back and not like and OH no i just missed this big damage cool down i guess i gotta play defense now, its a oh no ima die now draw back. So you know what mirages do? Nothing. Why? Because have the choices we make draw backs are so huge its not worth it hell were so squishy that using a weapon skill is scary cause u don't wanna reveal where you are because if u do your dead.

Thats my full view of the matter.Ive quit the class all together i'm done with this now its clear to me thats Anet as a company and the gw2 community just does want this class to work in pvp in any meaningful way.

[Thornwolf.9721]

They should just do hard reworks of each class, core all the way through to elite specs. Fill in gaps that they have which make them unwieldy or clunky and then also nerf the areas that they overpreform and become almost unfun to face off against. Make them unique with niches, and special mechanics sure but also make sure they don't become and outright be all and end all.

This goes for all classes not just messmer, not just guardian or whatever else. Every class has bits of it that suck to high hell and have no right to exist because they are never used rather than compound this with band-aid fixes that amount to nothing why not just remake the class and actually give it the attention it deserves. Go one by one until all nine are in a place where while unique in feel and game-play, they can all bring any role to the table that they wish to preform. (That was their mantra right? Anyone can be a tank, bruiser, dps, healer or whatever.) Its time to just sit down and take a long hard look at the game and realize that little fixes or offering hard trade-offs while good might not be the best way to go.

Revenant suffers because it was built with its first E-spec in mind, which is why it has been kinda on and off with its functionality in specific fields outside of power herald in compettive play. But at the same time its a bit easier to pin-point where the issue is between core, the E-spec and whatever else and a bit easier to decide how to fix it because they can find it easier. The other classes? Not so much mainly because Core was designed to be the be all and end all, the E-specs then add onto this. So in my mind remaking them and building the classes with E-specs in mind means that an E-spec can fulfill a niche, and you can leave aspects of core classes in such a state than if you take an E-spec its more like augmenting yourself to be a role.

TL;DR : Since they seemingly have a fetish right now for hard locking us into roles based on class/spec, why not remake them all to do just that? Each E-spec has a role it can fulfill and nothing else. Core has two or so roles it could fill an example would be : "Core necromancer fulfills Ranged DPS, and Brawler/Utility. While Reaper is melee exclusive and augments BOTH duel daggers and greatsword while loosing its ranged power. And Scourge is strictly a support spec, with little damage but tons of utility and support abilities." <==== This way if something is broken and over-preforms and becomes a ludicrous powerhouse it will be easier for them to find and nerf, maintaining balance. (Which seems to be the direction they are taking regardless.)

[Ansau.7326]

Have been trying many mesmer builds since yesterday: power mirage, condi mirage, power core, condi core, even I slotted filthy chrono for first time in 6 months.Mirage is dead in PvP and WvW.Chrono is dead in PvP and WvW.Core mesmer is meh in PvP and dead in WvW.

Anet just killed one of the 9 professions by listening the noisy forum community carried by passives, smashing keyboard sustain and skills doing +50% health bar damage in just 1 hit.