Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Condition Revenants: Axe and Mallyx too large area on their control effects


FalsePromises.6398

Recommended Posts

I'll cut straight to the chase. Axe 5 and Mallyx 9 (the leap and pull) are overperforming right now, given they ignore line of sight, cover wide areas, have incredible disruption, AND apply conditions in the process. Mallyx 9 in particular is a VERY strong skill when you consider a roundup pull on top of a chill on top of a 600 range leap that's also 360 radius area effect, which can be traited to apply torment, and for some more perspective is the same range with 50% larger radius than warrior's adrenaline hammer burst ability. Axe 5 also covers quite the area (300 width by 900 range) with another interrupt that applies torment in the process. This skill may have been balanced in the past, but now that CC is largely nerfed, these two are highly overperforming in their areas, allowing wide area disruption and oppressive mobility on top of the fact, without costing from power damage as they compound torment and burning from quick casting passives and pulsing fields (often which the skills are used to pull into).

tl:dr, Mallyx's leap pull and axe's rift are oppressively strong right now because of their wide area coverage and the sheer weight of the entirety of unyielding anguish as a gap closer, interrupt, roundup, and chill.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 64
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Mallyx call to anguish shouldn't do dmg. It doesn't do much at all but for consistency it should have it's dmg nerfed to other hard CC skills. Otherwise it's completely fine.

Condi rev would be completely dead without the leap pull (unless it got the old spam chill+torment field back, but that's not happening)

Only nerf really needed is the transfers that condi rev (specifically herald but to some degree permeating pestilence) has, a class with resistance shouldn't have access to those.

Don't nerf axe, condi rev already only has 1 good weapon, which is mace, the off-hand and off-bar are choices between varying levels of trash, where axe is a little above the rest.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but you won't find sympathy here: people complaining all day about the already nerfed hammer (which was useless in every part of the game except WvW) and Shriro mobility until ANet turned the entire power builds in hot garbage. Now the meta is bunker cancer and you don't enjoy being a ragdoll? Sorry: not sorry, enjoy what you asked for (by the way, Inspired Reinforcement greatly counters cc; play with a Guardian or a Jalis Rev).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Axe 5 applies like 1 stack of torment for 1 second. That is like what? 200-300 damage. It is also very telegraphed, a huge black tear in the world.

Mallyx leap costs 30 energy, which is a very large amount of energy. If you are going to complain about that skill you should definitely complain about spectral grasp from necromancer that can pull 5 people from 1200 range while applying a chill twice the duration of call to anguish.

I have ran core condition revenant for over half a year before this patch made it more popular. It got nerfed like any revenant build by losing empty vessel and if you spend 30 energy you often do not have enough energy for a stunbreak so someone with stabillity/fast reaction stunbreak can lock you down with CC after you use call to anguish.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You also need to consider than condi rev is essentially a melee build. And in most cases, unless using herald, a rev also won’t have swiftness so most classes can and will literally walk away from you. The leap is not only a cc, it’s a way to close the gap, as is axe 5. Since near enough all damage has been removed from axe, it is now just a utility weapon to close the gaps imo. Both of the skills can not being spammed, can be easily dodged and are highly telegraphed as well as costing a lot of energy as mentioned.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:Mallyx call to anguish shouldn't do dmg. It doesn't do much at all but for consistency it should have it's dmg nerfed to other hard CC skills. Otherwise it's completely fine.

Only nerf really needed is the transfers that condi rev (specifically herald but to some degree permeating pestilence) has, a class with resistance shouldn't have access to those.Considering the amount of energy put into the skill, it should do more!

And how much access does a Revenant have to cleanses? Answer this first then compare it to other classes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:

@lodjur.1284 said:Mallyx call to anguish shouldn't do dmg. It doesn't do much at all but for consistency it should have it's dmg nerfed to other hard CC skills. Otherwise it's completely fine.

Only nerf really needed is the transfers that condi rev (specifically herald but to some degree permeating pestilence) has, a class with resistance shouldn't have access to those.Considering the amount of energy put into the skill, it should do more!

It shouldn't do any strike dmg because no other hard cc does, this is barely a nerf.

And how much access does a Revenant have to cleanses? Answer this first then compare it to other classes.

It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

When you think about it though and compare to other professions, outside of the transfer, rev doesn’t have a lot of good cleanses, and this has always been one of revs biggest downfalls. The only realistic ones I can think of are one cleanse on legend swap, 2 on staff, and 6 On the dwarf heal? The others would be traited shield skills and Ventari but these in general aren’t really worth including unless playing support.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Josh.4132 said:

It has plenty of ways of dealing with condi, at least the transfer builds would even without.

When you think about it though and compare to other professions, outside of the transfer, rev doesn’t have a lot of good cleanses, and this has always been one of revs biggest downfalls. The only realistic ones I can think of are one cleanse on legend swap, 2 on staff, and 6 On the dwarf heal? The others would be traited shield skills and Ventari but these in general aren’t really worth including unless playing support.

You haveCleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)1 on swap with invoDwarf heal 5Mallyx resistance on trait and activeSome various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

You haveCleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)1 on swap with invoDwarf heal 5Mallyx resistance on trait and activeSome various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

I didn’t mention cleansing sigils as it’s not a rev specific cleanse so it’s an advantage all classes can use against condi. How many people use dwarf? And it’s a 30 sec cd and forces you to use your heal just to cleanse condis. Also now with less condi stacks but longer durations, the usefulness of resistance is somewhat less. Now compare these to things like mesmer’s cleansing mantra, ranger and guardian cleanses and to an extent necro’s transfer/condi cleanses.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Josh.4132 said:

You haveCleansing sigil (all classes but very good since stance swap counts)1 on swap with invoDwarf heal 5Mallyx resistance on trait and activeSome various stuff like removing chill/immob/cripple in assassin.

Presumably permeating and true nature could be replaced with normal clears or something too

I didn’t mention cleansing sigils as it’s not a rev specific cleanse so it’s an advantage all classes can use against condi. How many people use dwarf? And it’s a 30 sec cd and forces you to use your heal just to cleanse condis. Also now with less condi stacks but longer durations, the usefulness of resistance is somewhat less. Now compare these to things like mesmer’s cleansing mantra, ranger and guardian cleanses and to an extent necro’s transfer/condi cleanses.

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

Power rev I haven't really played enough but with 4 clears on stance swap it shouldn't be terrible. Either way they're not usually running the transfer stuff

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Josh.4132 said:I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

@Josh.4132 said:

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Josh.4132 said:I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@LaGranse.8652 said:

@Josh.4132 said:I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@lodjur.1284 said:

@Josh.4132 said:I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Raknar.4735 said:

@Josh.4132 said:I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

But they are better on rev than on most classes and absurdly good against condi.

I personally use dwarf, it has overall good skills.

Between resistance and the clears that rev does on condi rev I feel about as good against condi as I do on most other classes

The thing is though If you’re using cleasing sigils, plus dwarf for the cleanse, plus the condi transfers, plus the resistance. Then you have dedicated a lot of traits and adjusted your build to counter condis, this is how it should be.

With the exception of dwarf most of those have very low opportunity costs. Dwarf generally isn't used on the problematic build, it usually uses dragon as that's much better for outnumbering people.

The cleansing potential isn't problematic, the transfer potential is, espec as you can let the stacks grow while you have resistance so there's no real risk to it

Cleansing works the same for rev as it does for all other classes. Changing our utilities on legend swap sometimes doesn’t help us especially now since you’re forced to swap legend to use the other legend’s stun break because of the loss of empty vessel

Rev almost swaps on cooldown, because that's how you use energy the most efficient, making cleansing get relatively close to maximum effectiveness on rev, as opposed to builds that swap a lot less.

I’d say the reason condi rev shoots down most other condi classes is because the average player that uses condi builds completely forgets condis exist and don’t take their own cleanses.

The condis that the actual rev do are at a good spot rn, the transfers are not, yesterday on multiple occasions I got 40+ stacks of torment and 20+ stacks of burn on me just from transfers, from revs that didn't even use any dmg skills. This is essentially a 1 shot, from a very easy situation to trigger.

For the rev to transfer that amount of condi they would have to have the conditions on themself first. When the rev pulls conditions from allies onto themself they do get a few seconds of resistance to deal with it short term, however, the opponent can dodge/ be out of range of the transfer and then the rev killed themself instead.

With 5 targets using absorption once gives you 8 sec of resistance. That's not short, that's close enough to forever.

It's an extremely low risk high reward playstyle that rewards outnumbering the enemy and creates poor play patterns.

But that's the case for pretty much everything. Outnumbering the enemy will most of the times have more benefits than being outnumbered. Giving out any boon is more effective if you give it to 5 people than to less than 5.

Boons increase your effectiveness, if you're a better player, you gain a larger benefit. The problem isn't that there's benefits to outnumbering, ofc there should be (the game would be very weird otherwise and even fighting outnumbered would be boring).

The problem is when those advantages take the form of a very common and oppressive build that gives a disproportionate advantage in these situations.

This is a similar issue to excessive mobility/burst/invuln builds, they punish outnumbered situations much more than is reasonable and makes combat more often just come down to numbers.

Same thing as offensive AoE caps, retaliation and the downed state. They give benefits that are arbitrary.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...