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Magolith.9412

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:Seems like the best thing anyone can do for Mesmer/Mirge/Chrono is to just retire the class totally.

Just retire gw2. BDO is free on steam (haven't tried it yet but it is on my library now)

\o/ im there already

Made one of the lolis with a huge boomerang.Played for about 10min, couldn't understand what was going on xD.Will try again when I've more time.

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@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:Seems like the best thing anyone can do for Mesmer/Mirge/Chrono is to just retire the class totally.

Just retire gw2. BDO is free on steam (haven't tried it yet but it is on my library now)

\o/ im there already

Made one of the lolis with a huge boomerang.Played for about 10min, couldn't understand what was going on xD.Will try again when I've more time.

I made striker, turns out at lvl 56 I get illusions.... I took smorc melee brainless class for a reason and I end up as freaking illusionist again XD

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@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:Seems like the best thing anyone can do for Mesmer/Mirge/Chrono is to just retire the class totally.

Just retire gw2. BDO is free on steam (haven't tried it yet but it is on my library now)

\o/ im there already

Made one of the lolis with a huge boomerang.Played for about 10min, couldn't understand what was going on xD.Will try again when I've more time.

I made striker, turns out at lvl 56 I get illusions.... I took smorc melee brainless class for a reason and I end up as freaking illusionist again XD

... (-_-) ..../I just did a striker for the same reason and just discovered it get illusions after reading your post ...Mean you can't get out of this easily haha.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@Moradorin.6217 said:Seems like the best thing anyone can do for Mesmer/Mirge/Chrono is to just retire the class totally.

Just retire gw2. BDO is free on steam (haven't tried it yet but it is on my library now)

\o/ im there already

Made one of the lolis with a huge boomerang.Played for about 10min, couldn't understand what was going on xD.Will try again when I've more time.

I made striker, turns out at lvl 56 I get illusions.... I took smorc melee brainless class for a reason and I end up as freaking illusionist again XD

... (-_-) ..../I just did a striker for the same reason and just discovered it get illusions after reading your post ...Mean you can't get out of this easily haha.

I reached 56 ( point where you get illusions ). Class turns SUPER slow, but with HEAVY damage. Super fun to use.Illusions dont die, do their thing and dissapear, they are more for the esthetics then anything

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Okay Anet, challenge accepted. I tried all the other professions, and you what? Even with all the ways you tried to make it harder, I still see mesmer as the best class for me. Mirage in particular. See you out there in WvW. I am angry as fuck but when life gives you lemons, you create clones anyway you can and go kill some bitches.

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@"campos.6520" said:It may be a dumb question, but, can someone please explain me what was SO unbalanced about Mirages having 2 dodges that was needed to reduce to 1? Also, what's the point of reducing dodge if the elite spec (ambush skills) totally relies on the dodge to give enough damage??? Like, ambush skills needs for nothing now, because I shouldn't use my dodge to use the ambush skill...I need the dodge only to dodge something now. Like, seriously, can someone tell me? Meanwhile, thief spec has 3 dodges, lots of evades (let's call it Mesmer's distortions) and invisbility (Mesmer does have it as well). Mesmer changed the dodges, but thieves no.

I did the math out a while ago to the dismay of a lot of mirage players who couldn't retaliate with much more than "Dodge food isn't in PvP so it's fine." Extended dodge frames with dodge food in WvW ends up putting the Mirage at the same dodge uptime as Acrobatics+Trickery thief.

With MC's innate ability to retroactively let the Mirage ignore CC, even without EM, it's kinda well... busted just for its defensive value alone.

Mirage just needs a rework. Animation hiding is super bad design and the ability to cast during defenses, have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity, and then also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos is like... super bad design and really unfair if you let them have the same base resource pool as everyone else.

It's kinda the same issue as Deadeye in that the specs are based on non-interaction with your opponent while simultaneously having even more expounded visual clarity issues than firebrand.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"campos.6520" said:It may be a dumb question, but, can someone please explain me what was SO unbalanced about Mirages having 2 dodges that was needed to reduce to 1? Also, what's the point of reducing dodge if the elite spec (ambush skills) totally relies on the dodge to give enough damage??? Like, ambush skills needs for nothing now, because I shouldn't use my dodge to use the ambush skill...I need the dodge only to dodge something now. Like, seriously, can someone tell me? Meanwhile, thief spec has 3 dodges, lots of evades (let's call it Mesmer's distortions) and invisbility (Mesmer does have it as well). Mesmer changed the dodges, but thieves no.

I did the math out a while ago to the dismay of a lot of mirage players who couldn't retaliate with much more than "Dodge food isn't in PvP so it's fine." Extended dodge frames with dodge food in WvW ends up putting the Mirage at the same dodge uptime as Acrobatics+Trickery thief.

With MC's innate ability to retroactively let the Mirage ignore CC, even without EM, it's kinda well... busted just for its defensive value alone.

Mirage just needs a rework. Animation hiding is super bad design and the ability to cast during defenses, have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity, and then also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos is like... super bad design and really unfair if you let them have the same base resource pool as everyone else.

It's kinda the same issue as Deadeye in that the specs are based on non-interaction with your opponent while simultaneously having even more expounded visual clarity issues than firebrand.

Not to put you on the defensive, but if you think any of the stuff you just cited made the Mirage OP, I would love to see what you think about classes that take no damage and/or block while still doing high burst damage. The fact is, no one who does not play them likes subversion classes, and Anet originally put it at least two of them into the game. With elite specs, it just got completely out of hand. Now, barely a week removed from the patch, you can find unkillable classes roaming in WvW. Mirage is not one of them. The same classes that could sustain forever are still able to do it, with a few exceptions. If this patch was a first step, I sure hope Mirage has seen the worst of its nerfs.

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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"campos.6520" said:It may be a dumb question, but, can someone please explain me what was SO unbalanced about Mirages having 2 dodges that was needed to reduce to 1? Also, what's the point of reducing dodge if the elite spec (ambush skills) totally relies on the dodge to give enough damage??? Like, ambush skills needs for nothing now, because I shouldn't use my dodge to use the ambush skill...I need the dodge only to dodge something now. Like, seriously, can someone tell me? Meanwhile, thief spec has 3 dodges, lots of evades (let's call it Mesmer's distortions) and invisbility (Mesmer does have it as well). Mesmer changed the dodges, but thieves no.

I did the math out a while ago to the dismay of a lot of mirage players who couldn't retaliate with much more than "Dodge food isn't in PvP so it's fine." Extended dodge frames with dodge food in WvW ends up putting the Mirage at the same dodge uptime as Acrobatics+Trickery thief.

With MC's innate ability to retroactively let the Mirage ignore CC, even without EM, it's kinda well... busted just for its defensive value alone.

Mirage just needs a rework. Animation hiding is super bad design and the ability to cast during defenses, have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity, and then also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos is like... super bad design and really unfair if you let them have the same base resource pool as everyone else.

It's kinda the same issue as Deadeye in that the specs are based on non-interaction with your opponent while simultaneously having even more expounded visual clarity issues than firebrand.

Mirage doesnt have a longer dodge

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I must say that I was furious with this nerf and I've put my mirage in the closet (especially since I didn't play Meta, I don't like staff, personal choice ^^ ) .... until yesterday.

And I must say that I was surprised, in 2 vs 2, I'm really doing good with my condi mirage, it's true that I lose some survivability/damages with the one dodge man but I adapted my fight style, I put my burst and then I move away to temporise and then I go back and it works pretty well.

I'll try it again to see if it's been just a lucky day or a fact ;)

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I think condi mirage is still ok in WVW due to Dire/TB stats & food. It's the power/hybrid that got hurt.

A big part of why mirage has high survivability is that it's near impossible to lock it down due to being able to dodge while hard CC'd. They should have left the dodge count alone and fixed it so that it's actually possible to hard CC the mirage and force legit stun breaks.

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You don't have to be a mathematics genius to even without calculations figure out mirage has no where near the amount of dodges as a thief.Thief has perma vigor, mirage doesn't. Case closed.

And even if it had, why couldn't mirage had more dodges than thief? ANerf just needed to remove the while stunned bit from mc.

Now I know other professions aren't allowed to have more stuff than thieves without a massive cry from them as was proven by cries when mesmer had as much stealth as a thief, as much mobility and as much evade on mirage.Curiously they were all nerfed while thief retained them all, go figure.

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@BadMed.3846 said:

@"Magolith.9412" said:It's pretty rough.

No. It's perfectly OK. Learn to adapt.

Thanks for this "I dont't play your class and now I can kill it while rollfacing aoe on my pegi4 class, so you need to l2p" sentence.Very credible considering how misha get killed by random guys in his vids.

Who's Misha? Some random who was able to roll with a broken spec previously. Apologies, I don't watch any Mesmer streams as
I firmly believe that only bad players, who like abusing macros, play this class.
Is thats why you afraid of dueling mesmer mains on your own main while being heavily handicaped? :joy:This "random" is well known by everyone who play pvp at plat+ at least. No wonder you never heard about him on the bottom of silver.
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@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@"campos.6520" said:It may be a dumb question, but, can someone please explain me what was SO unbalanced about Mirages having 2 dodges that was needed to reduce to 1? Also, what's the point of reducing dodge if the elite spec (ambush skills) totally relies on the dodge to give enough damage??? Like, ambush skills needs for nothing now, because I shouldn't use my dodge to use the ambush skill...I need the dodge only to dodge something now. Like, seriously, can someone tell me? Meanwhile, thief spec has 3 dodges, lots of evades (let's call it Mesmer's distortions) and invisbility (Mesmer does have it as well). Mesmer changed the dodges, but thieves no.

I did the math out a while ago to the dismay of a lot of mirage players who couldn't retaliate with much more than "Dodge food isn't in PvP so it's fine." Extended dodge frames with dodge food in WvW ends up putting the Mirage at the same dodge uptime as Acrobatics+Trickery thief.

With MC's innate ability to retroactively let the Mirage ignore CC, even without EM, it's kinda well... busted just for its defensive value alone.

Mirage just needs a rework. Animation hiding is super bad design and the ability to cast during defenses, have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity, and then also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos is like... super bad design and really unfair if you let them have the same base resource pool as everyone else.

It's kinda the same issue as Deadeye in that the specs are based on non-interaction with your opponent while simultaneously having even more expounded visual clarity issues than firebrand.

At best your statement is WAY out of date. However, at present its just wrong. You are miss informed. For instance, you said " have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity" FOR THE LAST YEAR! YOUR INFO IS A YEAR OUT OF DATE!!

March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for ambush skills.

Also you claim "also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos," which is also totally false. I true fallacy. Mirage gets CCed like anyone else. They can still hit the dodge key and stun breaks while CCed like anyone else. Mirage just moves differently during dodge, which is its ONE special thing for its Espec. You are just totally wrong and seem to be talking about Mirage of a year ago as if its the same today even before 2/25. You should go learn what you are talking about before posting here. Mesmer has has enough abuse from ill informed people who just want them out of the way to make life simple for themselves. Seriously! :#

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I said Mirage had been OP since the start of the game. The patch has landed and I support the changes fully. Is it still OP or not will be clear soon.

I don't intend on proving anything to anyone. None of you mirage mains have ever proved anything. All I see is cries for more power creep and accessibility to broken builds.

Let me be very clear:The developers did very well in determining how to nerf mirage. Great work! No, I'm no expert but I trust the developers know more than me and most of you. I simply reject your calls for buffs and support the nerfs as they were necessary.

You see, there's nothing here to prove. It's my opinion and I stick to it. Regardless of how much noise the other forces make![moderator: content edited]

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@BadMed.3846 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 :Don't worry, I konw the troll but I have plethora of time.

Don't bother yourself with BadMed, he has a large part in the hate history of mirage (i already have some fights with him.....in the forum)

He says he haven't whine about mesmer, just give a look to everything he post ;)

Why is it so hard for you Mesmer mains to accept a simple fact that you've been largely carried by a broken spec over the years. From one shot shatter to Condi spam bot; you've had your fair share of every possible broken build that requires no skill and even bots can easily master. C'mon, just accept the fact and stop pretending.

Stating the fact is not whining.

Where are your proves fact ?Last time someone did the effort to play mesmer to highligh how op it was, it failed miserably. When will you put proves to your imagination ?Why it's so hard to share us proves of your facts like mesmers leaderboard representations, stream fight and other non-biased cry ?

I said Mirage had been OP since the start of the game. The patch has landed and I support the changes fully. Is it still OP or not will be clear soon.

I don't intend on proving anything to anyone. None of you mirage mains have ever proved anything. All I see is cries for more power creep and accessibility to broken builds.

Let me be very clear:The developers did very well in determining how to nerf mirage. Great work! No, I'm no expert but I trust the developers know more than me and most of you. I simply reject your calls for buffs and support the nerfs as they were necessary.

You see, there's nothing here to prove. It's my opinion and I stick to it. Regardless of how much noise the other forces make!

1) What you said based on your personnal experience mean nothing. Look at leaderboard, class representation, mAt representation. At best it was in the average since release in the all class context.2) it's to the guys who came here throwing false facts to prove what he says, not to the opposite.3) The developers just break every synergy, leaving dead traits and spec every nerf. They just go to the whine forum hype and what is said on twitch top stream when they interact with players here.4) You don't just reject calls and support nerf as they were necessary, you just reject mesmer as a class and support nerf whatever it is.5) You see, there's something to prove, you just haven't any data behind you and everytime we ask for thing more valuable instead of your opinion, we get wind.

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/popcorn

Impossible to convey the difference between functional but less potential skill/interactivity/fun, and functional but with greater potential skill/fun/etc.

A patch note could read "mesmer health pool reduced to 1k base" or something equally ridiculous, and the response would be "well done Anet, this is deserved".

Fact is many haters still get rolled by mirage or any variant of mesmer tbh, nevermind appreciating any nuances of how it could or should be more interesting and require more active thought to play.

Would be funny if it wasn't like smacking one's head against brick walls, repeatedly. Which is why I personally don't bother arguing.

The only bottom line is Anet will do what they do and we simply have to deal with it. I hope this year 2020 proves me wrong, but we'll find out over the next few months.

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@Moradorin.6217 said:

@"campos.6520" said:It may be a dumb question, but, can someone please explain me what was SO unbalanced about Mirages having 2 dodges that was needed to reduce to 1? Also, what's the point of reducing dodge if the elite spec (ambush skills) totally relies on the dodge to give enough damage??? Like, ambush skills needs for nothing now, because I shouldn't use my dodge to use the ambush skill...I need the dodge only to dodge something now. Like, seriously, can someone tell me? Meanwhile, thief spec has 3 dodges, lots of evades (let's call it Mesmer's distortions) and invisbility (Mesmer does have it as well). Mesmer changed the dodges, but thieves no.

I did the math out a while ago to the dismay of a lot of mirage players who couldn't retaliate with much more than "Dodge food isn't in PvP so it's fine." Extended dodge frames with dodge food in WvW ends up putting the Mirage at the same dodge uptime as Acrobatics+Trickery thief.

With MC's innate ability to retroactively let the Mirage ignore CC, even without EM, it's kinda well... busted just for its defensive value alone.

Mirage just needs a rework. Animation hiding is super bad design and the ability to cast during defenses, have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity, and then also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos is like... super bad design and really unfair if you let them have the same base resource pool as everyone else.

It's kinda the same issue as Deadeye in that the specs are based on non-interaction with your opponent while simultaneously having even more expounded visual clarity issues than firebrand.

At best your statement is WAY out of date. However, at present its just wrong. You are miss informed. For instance, you said " have a baseline longer dodge that has basically no visual clarity" FOR THE LAST YEAR! YOUR INFO IS A YEAR OUT OF DATE!!

March 05, 2019

All applications of this skill's effect have had their duration reduced to match the duration of a normal dodge roll. This change does not affect the timing window for ambush skills.

Also you claim "also baseline let them ignore CC-damage combos," which is also totally false. I true fallacy. Mirage gets CCed like anyone else. They can still hit the dodge key and stun breaks while CCed like anyone else. Mirage just moves differently during dodge, which is its ONE special thing for its Espec. You are just totally wrong and seem to be talking about Mirage of a year ago as if its the same today even before 2/25. You should go learn what you are talking about before posting here. Mesmer has has enough abuse from ill informed people who just want them out of the way to make life simple for themselves. Seriously! :#

I admittedly was referring to older patches. I've been pretty much inactive as my signature implies, and for quite a while, and last March was ironically was probably during my peak inactivity. Though people were singing doom about the spec when the vigor access was nerfed the first time when I had to prove them otherwise. So my bad and I'll admit to being wrong here. I'm not on the defensive at all. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong and will admit that. I play thief and reaper and call for nerfs when I think they're necessary just as much, such as sustained stealth being majorly bad for the game and how old RShroud and SR traitlines were better for the health of necro, too.

Though dodging during CC - even without EM - is something unique to mirage, and is an incredibly powerful mechanic even if the CC lingers. Which is why I specified "retroactively;" you can basically ignore follow-up punishing via burst when getting hit by the CC, which is essential for a lot of classes to do in their combos. If they did remove this, it's not in the patch notes nor on the wiki, and not being a mesmer main, I only played the kit enough to learn the spec mechanics and interactions when fighting against them. Having recently CC'ed one and having had them dodge my follow-up, I'm pretty sure this effect is still in the game.Like when I proposed the Deadeye, I wanted it based on revealed so that people could actually see the thief and react to and predict its periods of power. Forcing players to commit to major decisions is a key element of skilled play, which is why elements which "break the rules" like mesmer and thief tend to see so much emphasis at the highest level of play and get so many complaints levied against them.

Ultimately, I'm advocating health of the mechanics instead of power level - which is what my initial post was more or less trying to convey. Even after you start gutting power in the name of making everyone else have a better time playing (like dodge uptime for the Mirage, which they'e now done... 4 times I think?), bad design just stays bad design. It never actually gets better with numbers, and a class is pretty much either OP or grossly weak. I want that to be clear. I've already said repeatedly on multiple sections of the boards that I think that every single elite spec to be released in PoF was horribly-designed and that all of them need reworks or hard nerfs to borderline unplayability with how bad the design is. Hiding animation clarity as a class feature is bad design just as much as sustained stealth is, and I think both facets should be removed altogether, alongside the increased visual clutter and generally difficult-to-counterplay mechanics like boon stacking/denial (outside of playing RPS with builds) and disengage mobility like we saw in earlier versions of Mirage and Soulbeast.

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@"Curunen.8729" said:/popcorn

Impossible to convey the difference between functional but less potential skill/interactivity/fun, and functional but with greater potential skill/fun/etc.

A patch note could read "mesmer health pool reduced to 1k base" or something equally ridiculous, and the response would be "well done Anet, this is deserved".

Fact is many haters still get rolled by mirage or any variant of mesmer tbh, nevermind appreciating any nuances of how it could or should be more interesting and require more active thought to play.

Would be funny if it wasn't like smacking one's head against brick walls, repeatedly. Which is why I personally don't bother arguing.

The only bottom line is Anet will do what they do and we simply have to deal with it. I hope this year 2020 proves me wrong, but we'll find out over the next few months.

ANet will do what BenP heard as a random suggestion on Discord/Twitch.

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@viquing.8254 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@Don Vega Van Kain.9842 :Don't worry, I konw the troll but I have plethora of time.

Don't bother yourself with BadMed, he has a large part in the hate history of mirage (i already have some fights with him.....in the forum)

He says he haven't whine about mesmer, just give a look to everything he post ;)

Why is it so hard for you Mesmer mains to accept a simple fact that you've been largely carried by a broken spec over the years. From one shot shatter to Condi spam bot; you've had your fair share of every possible broken build that requires no skill and even bots can easily master. C'mon, just accept the fact and stop pretending.

Stating the fact is not whining.

Where are your proves fact ?Last time someone did the effort to play mesmer to highligh how op it was, it failed miserably. When will you put proves to your imagination ?Why it's so hard to share us proves of your facts like mesmers leaderboard representations, stream fight and other non-biased cry ?

I said Mirage had been OP since the start of the game. The patch has landed and I support the changes fully. Is it still OP or not will be clear soon.

I don't intend on proving anything to anyone. None of you mirage mains have ever proved anything. All I see is cries for more power creep and accessibility to broken builds.

Let me be very clear:The developers did very well in determining how to nerf mirage. Great work! No, I'm no expert but I trust the developers know more than me and most of you. I simply reject your calls for buffs and support the nerfs as they were necessary.

You see, there's nothing here to prove. It's my opinion and I stick to it. Regardless of how much noise the other forces make!

1) What you said based on your personnal experience mean nothing. Look at leaderboard, class representation, mAt representation. At best it was in the average since release in the all class context.2) it's to the guys who came here throwing false facts to prove what he says, not to the opposite.3) The developers just break every synergy, leaving dead traits and spec every nerf. They just go to the whine forum hype and what is said on twitch top stream when they interact with players here.4) You don't just reject calls and support nerf as they were necessary, you just reject mesmer as a class and support nerf whatever it is.5) You see, there's something to prove, you just haven't any data behind you and everytime we ask for thing more valuable instead of your opinion, we get wind.

1.) Majority of the posts here are based on personal experience. Some rare ones are based on statistics and solid evidence. As far as I know, there is no evidence requirement to post here.

2.) There are plenty of Mesmer broken build supporters here who want to voice their concerns about the patch. I simply want to say that I think otherwise. I don't care what others think, nor do I go and attack them for posting their thoughts here. Others often try to attack me, but that's fine. Doesn't bother me.

3.) The developers review how a class has been performing over time. Nerfs are implemented where needed.

4.) I only support Mirage nerfs actively. I'm not against other class nerfs by any means. Mirage has just been too broken so I like voicing my concerns around it.

5.) There's nothing to prove. These are opinions. Take em or leave em.

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