Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Thieves ruin WvW


Gondolph.7201

Recommended Posts

@alain.1659 said:Thief builds are becoming more and more toxic. Years ago vault thief would made people to laugh at you, yet now people are using it. And now the same with sword pistol.

Last night showed several condi thief builds, including poison perma stealth rifle deadeye which can remove revealed so even if you have a detection skill it is useless.

Thief is becoming toxic and really cheesy. But why? Because therr is no other room left for thieves to breathe. Random nerfs and op specs forced their hands to find something useful, and when they did, nobody liked that.

Like every other profession, thief is a direct result of the entire game balance. Better not forget that.

+10

And that is why i do not blame them for being Toxic because it is Anet whose forcing them to be Toxic

-afterall, Anet have total control over them

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluberblasen.9684 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:Everything about thief is bad. Where on earth would Arenanet begin the process of balancing it? I suppose removing stealth from the game would be FIRST!

If the game is too hard for you you could try some mobile games, maybe something with autoplay would be a good fit, don't have to work to counter anything.

what is the counter of stealth?playing class without detection :/and i cant see overlords or overseer flying over me.. and i dont have a scan or a mobile turret. :(

Then hide in spawn or log off if you can't. Or try some more emojis.

I ask you again.What is the counter to stealth? When you dont have detection on your class.

Don't go afk out of spawn, have a build with some options, and know what re-stealth and coming out of stealth look like. If you didn't build pure glass canon to do the same thing to people you're afraid of happening to yourself then you should have options that I have to make choices in my build to counter. I like to have my more reflexive evade skills on left ctrl to lean over on for ease of use because rangers mostly but also when I've seen a re-stealth on the ground and I know a backstab or Death's Judgement is creeping around and I move to get out of the orientation they set up on me. I also pan camera a lot while traveling to spot pulls or whatever coming my way and should also catch the backstab or DJ blur.

Super long stealth is dumb and I'd like a change to it but it's there and I've built to handle it mostly but for the most part it's as consequence to handling everything else out there. Sometimes a thief or something else will read me well enough and think a few steps ahead me and that stings but a lot of the game is letting others unravel themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Gondolph.7201 said:currently there is a increasing use of thieves in WvW. The tactics is usually the following: 3 thieves are in the (enemies) castle. We tried as a zerg to kill them, but you need approx. 20 min sometimes tro get 2 of them. The stealth disruption trap is almost useless now, since the death-eye is visible for approx. 2-3 sec now. They are almost permanent invisible anyway.So if the zerg does not want to run for hours behind phantoms, the leader finally decides to ignore thieves. and go for fights then. 10 minutes later the castle is fallen. Half of the game mechanics renders obsolete, there is no point anymore in nurturing castles to higher levels, unless the full zerg remains in it.

that is no fun anymore.

mmmm salt

Link to comment
Share on other sites

even with detection, good thieves can dodge you for long enough to get stealth mode back again, and still kill very quick, no matter the dps nerf (plus they can go condi even more comfy now, since the cleanses got nerfed.) still, not their 1v1 capabilities are the problem.

thief roamer packs are pretty annoying but numbers often win. i don't agree with saying "thieves ruin wvw" tho, but they should not exactly be getting too much attention when balancing. they got buffed kinda again as beeing the most efficient killers again, since most dps got reduced way stronger than theirs.

keep hiding thieves ARE problems. completely nuts that this is even possible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@bluberblasen.9684 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:Everything about thief is bad. Where on earth would Arenanet begin the process of balancing it? I suppose removing stealth from the game would be FIRST!

If the game is too hard for you you could try some mobile games, maybe something with autoplay would be a good fit, don't have to work to counter anything.

what is the counter of stealth?playing class without detection :/and i cant see overlords or overseer flying over me.. and i dont have a scan or a mobile turret. :(

Then hide in spawn or log off if you can't. Or try some more emojis.

I ask you again.What is the counter to stealth? When you dont have detection on your class.

Speaking from a thief perspective (so no inherent class reveals);

You can use stealth yourself, in order to negate their advantage and gain the opening strike. You would not believe the amount of pressure this can put on a player if done consistently.

You can use skills that track through stealth (basically anything with a longer cast time or channel in conjunction with the skill queue) to pressure when they would otherwise be safe. I often queue a P/D 2 into malicious sneak attack on an enemy entering stealth, as long as the buttons were pressed when the target was visible the channel of sneak attack will hit.

You can use terrain to your advantage; LoS to deal with ranged stealth builds like deadeye, bottlenecks and tight corners in conjunction with AoE CC and damage to pressure daredevil, spots where ports do not work reliably to deny shadowstep for the escape.

You can build to condi bomb in the times they are visible, and heal when they enter stealth on low health knowing they can't risk an attack right then.

You can use skills that target players regardless of if they are stealthed or not; deadeye stolen items when used will trigger a hit that deals damage to the marked player irrespective of stealth as long as they are in range, so using that in a condi build to apply a spider venom stack along with doom sigil and torment sigil can load up the thief with condi even when he's in stealth. Odds are there's more than one skill that functions in this way.

You can drop area blinds/projectile reflect/blocks and wait for the stealth to expire.

You can drop traps/preparations, stand on them and wait for the thief to engage. If he dodges through the trap to trigger it, he's within melee range so nuke him with PBAoE skills.

You can use mobility skills to kite; a lot of heavy stealth builds have lower mobility than the average on other builds, so he has to choose between keeping up or keeping stealth. Either way it works in your favour.

You can use z axis mobility vs builds that lack it either by design or through cooldowns; holosmith cannot port, so if you port onto the top of a wall when he stealths his advantage is totally negated.

You can force a fight near sentries or towers with the sentry buff to mark the player and gain the advantage.

You can use target painters and throw them at the smoke fields, revealing the thief.

That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of ways to deal with stealthed opponents, if you think clearly, know the class and what they can do and use terrain effectively.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:Everything about thief is bad. Where on earth would Arenanet begin the process of balancing it? I suppose removing stealth from the game would be FIRST!

If the game is too hard for you you could try some mobile games, maybe something with autoplay would be a good fit, don't have to work to counter anything.

what is the counter of stealth?playing class without detection :/and i cant see overlords or overseer flying over me.. and i dont have a scan or a mobile turret. :(

Then hide in spawn or log off if you can't. Or try some more emojis.

I ask you again.What is the counter to stealth? When you dont have detection on your class.

Speaking from a thief perspective (so no inherent class reveals);

You can use stealth yourself, in order to negate their advantage and gain the opening strike. You would not believe the amount of pressure this can put on a player if done consistently.

You can use skills that track through stealth (basically anything with a longer cast time or channel in conjunction with the skill queue) to pressure when they would otherwise be safe. I often queue a P/D 2 into malicious sneak attack on an enemy entering stealth, as long as the buttons were pressed when the target was visible the channel of sneak attack will hit.

You can use terrain to your advantage; LoS to deal with ranged stealth builds like deadeye, bottlenecks and tight corners in conjunction with AoE CC and damage to pressure daredevil, spots where ports do not work reliably to deny shadowstep for the escape.

You can build to condi bomb in the times they are visible, and heal when they enter stealth on low health knowing they can't risk an attack right then.

You can use skills that target players regardless of if they are stealthed or not; deadeye stolen items when used will trigger a hit that deals damage to the marked player irrespective of stealth as long as they are in range, so using that in a condi build to apply a spider venom stack along with doom sigil and torment sigil can load up the thief with condi even when he's in stealth. Odds are there's more than one skill that functions in this way.

You can drop area blinds/projectile reflect/blocks and wait for the stealth to expire.

You can drop traps/preparations, stand on them and wait for the thief to engage. If he dodges through the trap to trigger it, he's within melee range so nuke him with PBAoE skills.

You can use mobility skills to kite; a lot of heavy stealth builds have lower mobility than the average on other builds, so he has to choose between keeping up or keeping stealth. Either way it works in your favour.

You can use z axis mobility vs builds that lack it either by design or through cooldowns; holosmith cannot port, so if you port onto the top of a wall when he stealths his advantage is totally negated.

You can force a fight near sentries or towers with the sentry buff to mark the player and gain the advantage.

You can use target painters and throw them at the smoke fields, revealing the thief.

That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of ways to deal with stealthed opponents, if you think clearly, know the class and what they can do and use terrain effectively.

This list of suggestions ranges from the completely ineffective to the easily countered to the impossible to achieve. Well done for compiling such a ... long ... list.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Svarty.8019 said:

@Svarty.8019 said:Everything about thief is bad. Where on earth would Arenanet begin the process of balancing it? I suppose removing stealth from the game would be FIRST!

If the game is too hard for you you could try some mobile games, maybe something with autoplay would be a good fit, don't have to work to counter anything.

what is the counter of stealth?playing class without detection :/and i cant see overlords or overseer flying over me.. and i dont have a scan or a mobile turret. :(

Then hide in spawn or log off if you can't. Or try some more emojis.

I ask you again.What is the counter to stealth? When you dont have detection on your class.

Speaking from a thief perspective (so no inherent class reveals);

You can use stealth yourself, in order to negate their advantage and gain the opening strike. You would not believe the amount of pressure this can put on a player if done consistently.

You can use skills that track through stealth (basically anything with a longer cast time or channel in conjunction with the skill queue) to pressure when they would otherwise be safe. I often queue a P/D 2 into malicious sneak attack on an enemy entering stealth, as long as the buttons were pressed when the target was visible the channel of sneak attack will hit.

You can use terrain to your advantage; LoS to deal with ranged stealth builds like deadeye, bottlenecks and tight corners in conjunction with AoE CC and damage to pressure daredevil, spots where ports do not work reliably to deny shadowstep for the escape.

You can build to condi bomb in the times they are visible, and heal when they enter stealth on low health knowing they can't risk an attack right then.

You can use skills that target players regardless of if they are stealthed or not; deadeye stolen items when used will trigger a hit that deals damage to the marked player irrespective of stealth as long as they are in range, so using that in a condi build to apply a spider venom stack along with doom sigil and torment sigil can load up the thief with condi even when he's in stealth. Odds are there's more than one skill that functions in this way.

You can drop area blinds/projectile reflect/blocks and wait for the stealth to expire.

You can drop traps/preparations, stand on them and wait for the thief to engage. If he dodges through the trap to trigger it, he's within melee range so nuke him with PBAoE skills.

You can use mobility skills to kite; a lot of heavy stealth builds have lower mobility than the average on other builds, so he has to choose between keeping up or keeping stealth. Either way it works in your favour.

You can use z axis mobility vs builds that lack it either by design or through cooldowns; holosmith cannot port, so if you port onto the top of a wall when he stealths his advantage is totally negated.

You can force a fight near sentries or towers with the sentry buff to mark the player and gain the advantage.

You can use target painters and throw them at the smoke fields, revealing the thief.

That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of ways to deal with stealthed opponents, if you think clearly, know the class and what they can do and use terrain effectively.

This list of suggestions ranges from the completely ineffective to the easily countered to the impossible to achieve. Well done for compiling such a ... long ... list.

I mean... you're wrong and should improve your playstyle.

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@"Svarty.8019" said:Everything about thief is bad. Where on earth would Arenanet begin the process of balancing it? I suppose removing stealth from the game would be FIRST!

If the game is too hard for you you could try some mobile games, maybe something with autoplay would be a good fit, don't have to work to counter anything.

what is the counter of stealth?playing class without detection :/and i cant see overlords or overseer flying over me.. and i dont have a scan or a mobile turret. :(

Then hide in spawn or log off if you can't. Or try some more emojis.

I ask you again.What is the counter to stealth? When you dont have detection on your class.

Speaking from a thief perspective (so no inherent class reveals);

You can use stealth yourself, in order to negate their advantage and gain the opening strike. You would not believe the amount of pressure this can put on a player if done consistently.

You can use skills that track through stealth (basically anything with a longer cast time or channel in conjunction with the skill queue) to pressure when they would otherwise be safe. I often queue a P/D 2 into malicious sneak attack on an enemy entering stealth, as long as the buttons were pressed when the target was visible the channel of sneak attack will hit.

You can use terrain to your advantage; LoS to deal with ranged stealth builds like deadeye, bottlenecks and tight corners in conjunction with AoE CC and damage to pressure daredevil, spots where ports do not work reliably to deny shadowstep for the escape.

You can build to condi bomb in the times they are visible, and heal when they enter stealth on low health knowing they can't risk an attack right then.

You can use skills that target players regardless of if they are stealthed or not; deadeye stolen items when used will trigger a hit that deals damage to the marked player irrespective of stealth as long as they are in range, so using that in a condi build to apply a spider venom stack along with doom sigil and torment sigil can load up the thief with condi even when he's in stealth. Odds are there's more than one skill that functions in this way.

You can drop area blinds/projectile reflect/blocks and wait for the stealth to expire.

You can drop traps/preparations, stand on them and wait for the thief to engage. If he dodges through the trap to trigger it, he's within melee range so nuke him with PBAoE skills.

You can use mobility skills to kite; a lot of heavy stealth builds have lower mobility than the average on other builds, so he has to choose between keeping up or keeping stealth. Either way it works in your favour.

You can use z axis mobility vs builds that lack it either by design or through cooldowns; holosmith cannot port, so if you port onto the top of a wall when he stealths his advantage is totally negated.

You can force a fight near sentries or towers with the sentry buff to mark the player and gain the advantage.

You can use target painters and throw them at the smoke fields, revealing the thief.

That's just off the top of my head. There are plenty of ways to deal with stealthed opponents, if you think clearly, know the class and what they can do and use terrain effectively.

Yes on paper.In reality imo works kinda different.

I could use stealth aswell,but my stealth (as a scrapper,for istance) is limited. I have CDs on my stealth options: no other profession can " consistently use stealth to add pressure" or stack that much stealth-time to get an opening strike on a thief.(hes going to restealth anyway and/or reset)

I meeean....dont get me wrong,those are good general advices but still...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"ilMasa.2546" said:Yes on paper.In reality imo works kinda different.

I could use stealth aswell,but my stealth (as a scrapper,for istance) is limited. I have CDs on my stealth options: no other profession can " consistently use stealth to add pressure" or stack that much stealth-time to get an opening strike on a thief.(hes going to restealth anyway and/or reset)

I meeean....dont get me wrong,those are good general advices but still...

That's true, but I did preface my post by saying that this is from a thief's point of view. Other classes have less stealth for sure, but they also have way more options in terms of blocks, reflects, and general defensive skills that I don't have on my thief. My point to the previous poster was essentially that to say there's no way to deal with stealth because you lack a reveal is a lazy approach to balance and to the fight, there's a ton of things you can do to negate the advantage if you think about it.

When fighting a thief you have to consider what type of thief you're fighting. If you're on a scrapper against a deadeye, yeah, trying to outstealth for the opener is probably a waste of time, but by stealthing in that situation you will get a long duration (assuming sneak gyro, hammer leaps and elixer s toolbelt skill are all used) where the deadeye can't hurt you as most deadeye builds require a target and LoS. This gives you time to heal the damage from the deadeye's opener, time that ticks down the cooldowns on any defensive skills you used before stealthing, and time for you to move to a better spot with obstacles to LoS the deadeye. You're also on one of the most tanky builds in the game; if you see him use smoke fields near you, stand in them to reveal the thief as he leaps through it for stealth. If the smoke field is far away, run in the opposite direction to it; the thief then has to choose between not having enough stealth for his next attack as he chases, or leaving stealth to use ini for mobility, both things work in your favour. I'm not saying that any one of these things on their own will always do the trick, but taking in mind the type of thief you're dealing with, you can use a combination of them to limit the thief's options and give you opportunities.

@Svarty.8019 said:This list of suggestions ranges from the completely ineffective to the easily countered to the impossible to achieve. Well done for compiling such a ... long ... list.

Well, firstly, thanks for reading it. Secondly, this is all from the standpoint of me playing a thief, as I said earlier, and I can tell you from experience that these tactics do work. The thing to remember with thief is that you're not fighting the build, you're fighting the player; you'll have to evaluate your own class and look for ways to mitigate the thief's advantage and put pressure on him. Simply complaining that you don't have a reveal therefore there's no counterplay is lazy gameplay, speaking honestly.

If memory serves you're a necro main; necro is a lot stronger vs a lot of things now because damage has been reduced across the board, and you don't have many defensive options besides tanking anyway due to your class's inherent design. So do the same thing that warriors do; build tanky enough that one shots aren't a problem, but don't sacrifice too much damage so you can play aggressively knowing that you'll win by attrition if you force the thief on the defensive by trading blows. You probably have one of the worst matchups with thieves, but thieves have lousy matchups against DH, holosmith and quite often boonbeast too. Just the way it goes really.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:even with detection, good thieves can dodge you for long enough to get stealth mode back again, and still kill very quick, no matter the dps nerf (plus they can go condi even more comfy now, since the cleanses got nerfed.) still, not their 1v1 capabilities are the problem.

thief roamer packs are pretty annoying but numbers often win. i don't agree with saying "thieves ruin wvw" tho, but they should not exactly be getting too much attention when balancing. they got buffed kinda again as beeing the most efficient killers again, since most dps got reduced way stronger than theirs.

keep hiding thieves ARE problems. completely nuts that this is even possible.

Thieves are far from the most efficient killers. Also, their DPS was reduced harder than most condi classes and some power classes. Their burst wasnt reduced as hard, but their burst was already highly outclassed by Mesmers. Thieves in WvW right are in a weird limbo. If you want to burst, Mesmer is infinitely better. If you want to go for sustained DPS, Warrior, Soulbeast and Condi Rev are your best bet. Outside of the keep-hiding nonsense (just deal with the permastealth, the portal is too neat to lose again), Thieves usefulness is questionable. Theyre still good at running away though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@Virdo.1540 said:Portal + Permastealth and Reveal-cleanse shouldnt be there.

I actually totally agree with the portal + permastealth bit. The stealth is fine imo, lose the portal though as the class really didn't need that. Either that or make the portal a daredevil only thing; that way you get portal or shadow meld, not both.

I think that both stealth and portal are fine. What's not fine is perma stealth (or anything close to it).

  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"spankyed.4735" said:in general kitten this game mode (WvW). chased half map with mount a thief ,cant disable him long enough. nice cd on shortbow i guess nothing changed since "balance patch".

Roamers that cant run away arent good roamers. Warriors and Soulbeasts are just as impossible to catch (Warriors even moreso on flat ground).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ive been corrupted. I have a condi DE build that I used to use for derping in WvW when bored (annoying af to fight in most cases despite not perma stealth), however post patch it went from my derp build to a co-main.

Havent played my Mirage yet since patch, scurred about the 1 dodge (im fine with all the other balances) and not ready to accept it yet lol. Also its been more and more fun to run my DE for the time being (im sure novelty will wear off).

My build has many downsides (cleanses/blocks/reflects..etc) however most people are not fully prepared to fight it I find so dont know how to.

On DE post patch, I have downed 3 in a 6v1, secured only 1 stomp tho due to mass bombing on the downed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Deadeyes are not ruining WvW. Zerg are.Deadeye is the only viable roaming class left if you do not want to be steamrolled by zergs constantly.

Tell me this: Does your Zerg leave a single roamer alone trying to capture a sentury? I doubt it, you likely will use the Massive power of the zerg to steamroll the poor roamer without him giving a fighting chance. Am I right? AM I?!?!?!

If your zerg cannot deal with 3 deadeyes in a keep, then you are not doing your job.

The second question: When you are going for a keep with your Zerg, and are met with strong defences, but... one allied thief is in there and offers to port a few behind enemy lines... Will you deny this opportunity? Likely not!

Deadeyes are always hated... that is... ENEMY deadeyes are always hated... Allied deadeyes are loved.Same goes for other classes that seem OP. Rangers, Scourges, Ele's etc etc... scroll through the forums and see how often people complain that class X is ruining WvW.

To come back to my own remark of Zergs ruining WvW... They aren'tBut they are when they have to kill that single player, even if the player is retreating... that's not fighting that's slaughter... yet you see it constantly.

So the fact your Zerg was unable to get those 3, kinda makes me smile. Sorry it does.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"kamikharzeeh.8016" said:even with detection, good thieves can dodge you for long enough to get stealth mode back again, and still kill very quick, no matter the dps nerf (plus they can go condi even more comfy now, since the cleanses got nerfed.) still, not their 1v1 capabilities are the problem.

thief roamer packs are pretty annoying but numbers often win. i don't agree with saying "thieves ruin wvw" tho, but they should not exactly be getting too much attention when balancing. they got buffed kinda again as beeing the most efficient killers again, since most dps got reduced way stronger than theirs.

keep hiding thieves ARE problems. completely nuts that this is even possible.

+1

'Guess who's back.....again?''Gw2 WvW Condi Deadeye is back !'

(current--build....stay tune.....)
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"DemonSeed.3528" said:That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

Power, Condition and Bunker is how Guild Wars 2 balance itself. Just like everyone else,Thief Profession adjusts itself with the meta of choice.

The Toxic road in all of this is and why this isn't a good look is...... for the past 8 years......there is nothing new to this

-No Lessons Were Learned-

  1. Thief Profession can still +1 shot
  2. Thief Profession condition is still Toxic
  3. Thief Profession can still perma-stealth
  4. Thief Profession can still stack stealth
  5. Thief Profession Mechanics and Skills remain Toxic
  6. Thief Profession Teleport continue to be exploitable
  7. Thief Profession is still Bad Design

The only remedy to this is for a complete redesign or to completely remove this profession altogether

until than......Guild Wars will never coexist with Toxicity

Y4ifWoO.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Burnfall.9573 said:

@"DemonSeed.3528" said:That build is an easy kill lol. Now p/d is suddenly a problem?ps - do you have some kind of rss feed or something to alert you whenever thief related stuff gets posted on youtube? it's hilarious. You could actually be spending all this time creatively thinking about sane fixes for thief players but instead chose to go down the toxic road. Please, if anything see how this isn't a good look.

Power, Condition and Bunker is how Guild Wars 2 balance itself. Just like everyone else,Thief Profession adjusts itself with the meta of choice.

The Toxic road in all of this is and why this isn't a good look is...... for the past 8 years......there is nothing new to this

-No Lessons Were Learned-
  1. Thief Profession can still +1 shot
  2. Thief Profession condition is still Toxic
  3. Thief Profession can still perma-stealth
  4. Thief Profession can still stack stealth
  5. Thief Profession Mechanics and Skills remain Toxic
  6. Thief Profession Teleport continue to be exploitable
  7. Thief Profession is still Bad Design

The only remedy to this is for a complete redesign or to completely remove this profession altogether

until than......Guild Wars will never coexist with Toxicity

Y4ifWoO.jpg

As I've said before, you just straight up hate thief. You base your position on that emotional reaction rather than relying on on any logical argument. It's fine to hate the class, just admit it for what it is dude.

On a more personal note, be careful how you quote the Bible. I don't imagine God likes His words being taken out of context any more than we do.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...