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WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?


Drizzt.1796

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I'm pretty sure his size is nothing to do with lore and everything to do with mechanically, loading the model into the game. (i think in the game content that was available at the time of victory or death when it was a dungeon, the only thing that could even be compared to that model is shadow behemoth)

Kralkatorrik sufffers a size decrease just going from ls4 ep5 -> ep6, for example, where one has the huge head model and the other had to have an entire kralkatorrik. In fact, even in ep 6 alone he seems to suffer inconsistency.

Though, having no other indicator to go off, I wonder how big Zhaitan really is (or was)?

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@Lexi.1398 said:I'm pretty sure his size is nothing to do with lore and everything to do with mechanically, loading the model into the game. (i think in the game content that was available at the time of victory or death when it was a dungeon, the only thing that could even be compared to that model is shadow behemoth)

Kralkatorrik sufffers a size decrease just going from ls4 ep5 -> ep6, for example, where one has the huge head model and the other had to have an entire kralkatorrik. In fact, even in ep 6 alone he seems to suffer inconsistency.

Though, having no other indicator to go off, I wonder how big Zhaitan really is (or was)?

There is an original model size for him. I think there are some size comparison threads in this sub forum

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@Drizzt.1796

I've copied and pasted this from another thread. You should be able to see the fore section of original Zhaitan in the first link just to the left of current Zhaitan and then a side view of it at the top in the second link

In summary, he was originally a bit smaller than Kralkatorrik, but not by much

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Zhaitan's final model was tiny due to technical limitations. This is why they use false perspective to make him look larger in-game, but there's only so much of that they can do. Zhaitan's model is super complex due to all the moving parts, and the engine at the time couldn't handle a full scale, super complex model at the size they desired for Zhaitan (which is the size of his original corpse model used for the trailer - @Randulf.7614 provided a link to a comparison with Dragonfall-sized uninjured Kralkatorrik).

By the time Season 4 came along, they could support much larger models. Though Kralkatorrik in Dragonfall is technically several dozen models due to draw distance - largest they could do is The End's Kralkatorrik. But likely due to the lack of its complexity - if it was Zhaitan, probably would still be smaller. And I think The End's Kralkatorrik is smaller than original Zhaitan, still.

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@SoulGuardian.6203 said:Seeing it from the airship looks pretty huge to me.Honestly I don't think other mythical dragons are portrayed much bigger than any of GW2 dragons.Actually, a lot of them are smaller.

Look up on wiki for dragons.A lot of them are pictured about the size of a pterosaur.

No not often. If anyone likes such sized Dragons, Lucius Shepard’s stories of the Dragon Griaule are well worth a read. That dragon is 6000 feet long

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@SoulGuardian.6203 said:Seeing it from the airship looks pretty huge to me.Honestly I don't think other mythical dragons are portrayed much bigger than any of GW2 dragons.Actually, a lot of them are smaller.

Look up on wiki for dragons.A lot of them are pictured about the size of a pterosaur.

No not often. If anyone likes such sized Dragons, Lucius Shepard’s stories of the Dragon Griaule are well worth a read. That dragon is 6000 feet long

Ok.Allow me to further comment.

● Dragon Heart (Draco)Perhaps only slightly bigger than the skyscale and defo smaller than any champion.

● Reign of FireAbout the size of GW2 champions.Only the male dragon could be close to being the size of Zhaitan.

● Lord of the RingsI don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

● Harry Potter.Only Slightly bigger than a skyscale.

● Whelsh DragonMuch smaller than any gw2 champion.

● Chinese DragonMuch smaller than mordremoth.

● Other European Dragons.Only the Romanian Dragon is pictured to be the size of Tetqualt... and I'm being generous.

● Ancient Dragon artMost around the size of skyscale.

Sure, you do get the odd monstrosity in books, but they have to dramatise a bit.I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.That would make it impossible to defeat.They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.You wouldn’t even chip its claws.Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

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Dragons having a singular physical body seem to be optional for them. Mordy was spread out across the jungle. Intertwined with it. He needed avatars to interact/fight with us. The vines, the mouth, the mind, sylvari, etc. "I am everywhere!" remember?

We can assume the same with Zhaitan. We already knew that Zhaitan was over reliant on minions: Mouth, Eye, etc. Zhaitan seemingly turned turned everything in and around Orr into minions. He had minion sea urchins! That's a lot of himself being spread out. Though the game is really fuzzy about how much of Zhaitan was inside its minions.

We don't know anything about Jormag's body at the moment except it did split part of itself off to make The Whisper. (My belief is that the western wall of Bjora's Marches is actually Jormag's body) Primordus seems to be a singular being like Kralk was. Selbbub remains a mystery.

Also if there is some amount of correlation between size and magic contained, Zhaitan did raise an entire continent from the sea bottom. With the Pact starving it of fresh magic as well the Zhaitan we cannon to death could have easily been some sort of base form that only came out because it was desperate.

tl;dr- It's likely that Zhaitan was small because that was the part of Zhaitan that was left.

It's also possible Zhaitan used that body simply because they thought it looked cool. Who knows the mind of an Elder Dragon?

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@"SoulGuardian.6203" said:● Lord of the RingsI don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

If you go into The Silmarillion, then you got dragons the size of mountains. Which would be Kralkatorrik-size, without taking exact measurements.

I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.That would make it impossible to defeat.They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.You wouldn’t even chip its claws.Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

That's kind of the idea behind the Elder Dragons. They're a single-handed world-ending threat due to their size and strength.

Which is why I am of the view that the Elder Dragons were confronted and defeated too quickly in the story. They should have been designed as a looming threat at first, to build up their inevitability side before finally a victory is had.

And alone, no asura or charr technology can bring an Elder Dragon down - even Zhaitan. It was the culmination of many technologies and exploiting a weakness in their power (for Zhaitan, the over-reliance on minions) that allowed the Pact to defeat the three Elder Dragons.

Also, OP didn't suggest a size, and the statement "twice the size" doesn't really fit the rest of your sentence - do you mean "half the size"?

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Repeating myself, but again: I have always thought that a significant portion of the ED's bodies must actually be magic, or some other Lovecraftian form of "not physical matter as we know it". In which case variability of size is somewhat to be expected, along with other less tangible qualities. For example, if DSD is as big as Kralk originally was said to be, it would be leaving a trail of tsunamis with every movement. It's not. So it's either not moving, or it has the ability to somehow move in a less material manner through the medium around it. Ditto for Primordus, who somehow is able to move an ED sized body (his head alone in LS3E6 implies he is even bigger than Kralk) around beneath Tyria without causing major earthquakes the whole way.

Speaking of Lovecraft, I recall one of his stories -- "The Shuttered Room" -- in which the size of the monster in the story was controlled by how much it fed. Perhaps the EDs are the same way. When they're fully charged, or overcharged as Kralk was, they're world-rumbling monsters. When they have been deliberately weakened as we did to Zhaitan, their physical manifestation shrinks in proportion to their available power.

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If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

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@"Hannelore.8153" said:If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

Not really on the tail bit.

, when the tails get cut off, it's just the two tails. The tails have barely functional wings on them, but they're not independent dragons or the like. Zhaitan looks like he's a dragon made of dragons, but his physiology is too much of one giant dragon. At best, he's a giant dragon that has had smaller dragons grafted onto it.

As for the Eyes and Mouths - those are not actually pieces of Zhaitan, but are champions that have a strong magical connection to Zhaitan. The Eyes are just kings and queens of Orr, if any piece of them is "literally Zhaitan" then it's just the giant eye they carry, though that eye looks a bit too humanoid to be a dragon's eye, imo.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Hannelore.8153" said:If you pay attention in-game, when the laser hits him, literal dragons (his "tail") seem to fall off of his body. This always suggested that Zhaitan is actually made up of his own minions, which makes sense as a giant flying necromancer.

Zhaitan's tail looks like it is its own.Actually, tails do serve a purpose. It keeps the creature balanced; and used for turning, like a steering wheel.

The Tendrils of Zhaitan weren't even attached to him in any way, but still were him. Same for the Eyes, the Mouth, etc.

Not really on the tail bit.
, when the tails get cut off, it's just the two tails. The tails have barely functional wings on them, but they're not independent dragons or the like. Zhaitan
looks
like he's a dragon made of dragons, but his physiology is too much of one giant dragon. At best, he's a giant dragon that has had smaller dragons grafted onto it.

Zhaitan is a zombie dragon, but it is obvious that has other creatures attached to it.The serpents in its mouth, its right hand, etc...

As for the Eyes and Mouths - those are not actually pieces of Zhaitan, but are champions that have a strong magical connection to Zhaitan. The Eyes are just kings and queens of Orr, if any piece of them is "literally Zhaitan" then it's just the giant eye they carry, though that eye looks a bit too humanoid to be a dragon's eye, imo.Indeed.Those are minions, not part of its phisical body.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"SoulGuardian.6203" said:● Lord of the RingsI don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

If you go into The Silmarillion, then you got dragons the size of mountains. Which would be Kralkatorrik-size, without taking exact measurements.

And undoubtedly our dear devs will find original and unique ways to defeat each one.

I've read many fantasy myth and legend books.Hardly remember any being the size of a skyscraper building or a russian nuclear plant.That would make it impossible to defeat.They have to keep them in a believable size, in order to get the story to its conclusion.Any smart writter isn't going to make the task more difficult to themselves; when they make it so big, and then get to that point and... oh rats, now what?Bring on the wall, or release the kraken?

If Zhaitan was at least twice the size as op is suggesting, no asura, or charr technology would bring that thing down.You wouldn’t even chip its claws.Its wind force alone would send you flying all the way to cantha like a rocket.

That's kind of the idea behind the Elder Dragons. They're a single-handed world-ending threat due to their size
and
strength.

Of course.But how big does the op wants a dragon to be?Where do you want to draw the line?It isn't easy to come up with realistic methods to fight and defeat a dragon.After all the concept work, you have to put it into practice.If Zhaitan was only 1% more intelligent, it could have destroyed the entire airship just by ramming into it, or slap it with that huge hand. But I thought, ok, he was feeling generous, or maybe he's not that smart.If the op thinks it's too small, then how do you come up with a way of defeating it if it was even bigger?

Which is why I am of the view that the Elder Dragons were confronted and defeated too quickly in the story. They should have been designed as a looming threat at first, to build up their inevitability side before finally a victory is had.

I agree with this.Dragon fights should have gone on for a bit longer in the story, probing them, study them, to find their weaknesses.

And alone, no asura or charr technology
can
bring an Elder Dragon down - even Zhaitan. It was the culmination of many technologies and exploiting a weakness in their power (for Zhaitan, the over-reliance on minions) that allowed the Pact to defeat the three Elder Dragons.

Also, OP didn't suggest a size, and the statement "twice the size" doesn't really fit the rest of your sentence - do you mean "half the size"?

Nope.The op is suggesting that Zhaitan is really small.Hence my replies. Imo they are not small at all; Kralkatorik is massive, and I reckon Primordious is going to be even bigger... and besides, due to engine limitations, you cannot make them a lot bigger anyways.

I think the dragon's size are just about right.

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@SoulGuardian.6203 said:Zhaitan is a zombie dragon, but it is obvious that has other creatures attached to it.The serpents in its mouth, its right hand, etc...I wouldn't say the Tendrils of Zhaitan are "other creatures". Multi-headed creatures are not exactly an unnatural phenomena in of itself.

@SoulGuardian.6203 said:Of course.But how big does the op wants a dragon to be?Where do you want to draw the line?It isn't easy to come up with realistic methods to fight and defeat a dragon.After all the concept work, you have to put it into practice.If Zhaitan was only 1% more intelligent, it could have destroyed the entire airship just by ramming into it, or slap it with that huge hand. But I thought, ok, he was feeling generous, or maybe he's not that smart.If the op thinks it's too small, then how do you come up with a way of defeating it if it was even bigger?

Nope.The op is suggesting that Zhaitan is really small.Hence my replies. Imo they are not small at all; Kralkatorik is massive, and I reckon Primordious is going to be even bigger... and besides, due to engine limitations, you cannot make them a lot bigger anyways.

I think the dragon's size are just about right.

I think OP was commenting on how small Zhaitan is compared to Kralkatorrik. And it's true, Zhaitan is tiny compared to Kralkatorrik. Even if you double Zhaitan's scale, it's still smaller than Kralkatorrik - and Jormag's tooth by comparison, which matches Kralkatorrik's size more or less. And that's got nothing on Primordus' head from S3.

OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

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@SoulGuardian.6203 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

That makes perfect sense, actually....and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

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@SoulGuardian.6203 said:● Lord of the RingsI don't remember any being larger than any GW2 champion.

There isn't a specified size for Ancalagon the Black, the largest dragon to have existed in this universe but as Konig said he was told to be as big as a mountian.

However if you read about his death he was defeated in the skies and fell down upon the Thangorodrim.The Thangorodrim consisted of 3 gigantic active volcanos, all of which were completely destroyed when Ancalagon crashed on top of them, crushing them into nothing.

Suffice to say the kind of mass and force he would need to possess to do that would be insane.. so he was likely much bigger than your average mountain and likely dwarfed dragons as big as Kralkatorrik.

There's no official size statements I can find but I've seen people claim Ancalagon as somewhere around 6500 feet long which is more than twice the hight of the Burj Khalifa, which when empty the building apparently weighs around 500,000 tons

I don't have the math skills to get technical with it but if Ancalagon can crush 3 volcanos with his own body then I'd have to say he was significantly bigger than anything in the Gw2 universe.

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@SoulGuardian.6203 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

That makes perfect sense, actually....and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

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@Teratus.2859 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

That makes perfect sense, actually....and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

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@Tyson.5160 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:OP wasn't saying all ED are small - just Zhaitan - in comparison to other ED. Using Kralkatorrik and Primordus as examples to say the Elder Dragons are good sizes as a disagreement with OP is, technically, not disagreeing with the OP.

Oh ok.But this

WHY WAS ZHAITAN SO TINY?

Is a little vague if you ask me.Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?

The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

That makes perfect sense, actually....and probably trehern purification of orr, contributed significantly to it.

Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

Possibly although that would be a lot of work and takes skills I don't posses lol

If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world map, then use the tail's size from that and compare it to Zhaitans full model at the same scale so we could get and idea of how big Zhaitan would look on the world map.Then simply compare that to how Big Kralks corpse is on Dragonfall.

If I had to guess off the top of my head i'd say Zhaitan could be maybe about 2/3's of Kralks length if we did that considering Kralk is slightly curved too.. but Zhaitan is also thinner/slimmer and lacks the same bulk and probably wingspan that Kralkatorrik has as well.I dunno, that's how i'd go about it anyway.Mordremoth is a harder one to compare since we don't really have anything to go on but his Dragon Stand corpse and that is all twisty etc not to mention I don't think we even have a full model of him.. from mouth the tail.

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@Randulf.7614 said:

@SoulGuardian.6203 said:Still, if you look over when Zhaitan is hanging from the massive pillar, it doesn't look that small.But yeah, in comparison to other huge dragons, it is much smaller, I suppose.

Does the lore say why?The only lore explanation that I am aware of - and I am uncertain if it is explicitly mentioned in game at this point to be actual canon - is because over the year long campaign, we starved Zhaitan of considerable magic which may have contributed to a stunted size by the time he eventually re-surfaced from within Arah.

But the main reason is simply because of game limitations of the time. He was designed to be bigger, but it just didn't work and they didn't have the time to make it work. If he was done today, there is no doubt he'd be larger (and have a better fight)

Sadly that's just player speculation. We know that the campaign actively harmed Zhaitan, and that part of his deformed appearance compared to the cinematic art throughout the game was caused by the death of the Eyes and Mouth and the cleansing of temples and Artesian Waters. But that never accounted for his size.

It's ultimately just player speculation that, since dragon minions get bigger with more magic (see: Megadestroyer, asura PS with Gorr, and the ley line defense events from side story achievements) that the same would go for Elder Dragons, thus explaining Primordus' dramatic size change from GW1 to GW2 (being awake for 200 years and consuming 6 Rata Sum-like cities).

The theory was more or less established with Primordus' size reveal in S3, but would inversely account for Zhaitan's tiny size.

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Teratus.2859 said:Take into account his tail in the Durmand Priory.If you want a better understanding of how big Zhaitan was probably supposed to be then take a good look at that tail.

Dragon models in game are unreliable as they change based on limitations or perceptions as others have said multiple times here.But static objects in the game that come from them (Zhiatans Tail, Jormags Tooth, Kralkatorriks corpse) those can all be made much closer to the size the devs want these Dragons to be so they are far more reliable as a way of judging their real size.

That’s super interesting. I’m wondering if we could take that model of the tail and make a better size comparison for Zhaitan’s actual size using the model from the Durmond Priory. I recall a few parts of the tail were carved off.

Already compared them, hoping that the tail would be larger. The tail in Durmand Priory is the same size as the tail of Zhaitan's model. Unlike Kralkatorrik, there is no differentiation of size between instances - it's a perfect 1:1 replica of Zhaitan's largest tail that gets cut off in the story.

@Teratus.2859 said:If I were to do it i'd probably take the Priory's library map and shrink it down so it fits to scale with the Priory layout on the world mapAck! No! The open world is scaled down for gameplay purposes! Dungeons and in-door instances are more likely to be accurate to lore scale. But not in this case, they're the same scale as the Hidden Arcana instance began by making a copy of Lornar's Pass (you can see a portion of it when viewing via Tyria3d). And as mentioned, the tail size scale is 1:1 the same.

Arah is also seemingly the only dungeon that was built on the same overall scale as the open world, too; if we want to scale instance and open world to the same size, I'd try upscaling the open world to match the scale of CoE or Honor of the Waves, as those dungeons are about twice as big as their open world counterparts, and their scaling makes a bit more sense.

Mordremoth is a harder one to compare since we don't really have anything to go on but his Dragon Stand corpse and that is all twisty etc not to mention I don't think we even have a full model of him.. from mouth the tail.

The Mouth of Mordremoth model is straight when pulled from the dat. But as you say, we lack a full model of him. Given the event icons, I imagine he's effectively a super-large version of this guy, and do one day hope to find that model in the dat to see just how large Mordremoth's full body would be by upscaling the mini enormously.

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