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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@DutchRiders.2871 said:Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.It was an illusion created by two factors - first was the fact it was a fresh, completely new content, and so many people wanted to try it out. Second was, obviously, legendary armor, that got many people interested, who otherwise would have stayed away from the content. Those both factors had a shortterm impact only, however. Most of the former players gave up very fast, either when newness wore out, or after they've seen this content is not what they're really interested in. The latter raided a bit more, but once they've got what they wanted, they left as well, as they never really cared about raids in the first place. Those things were never going to last, and they only obscured the real raid popularity.

We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.And yet those very players you want the devs to not care about are those whose (un) happiness can decide the success of GW2. The real hardcores simply can't keep this game afloat. There were never enough of them in the first place.

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@HumanComplex.1648 said:It's really just the lack of difficulty scaling. Fixing that will add a bunch of players. Adding a bunch of players will solve your trinity shortages.

No, it's not and won't add a bunch of players and fix the trinity problem(there is no trinity in this game). That's is like saying you're going to increase participation from 1% of the player base to 2%, the increase is so insignificant that it's not worth mentioning.

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Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

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@"Loki.4871" said:Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

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@Vinceman.4572 said:

@"Loki.4871" said:Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

But today, most raids are old and I guess that most players that raid, are experienced with the raids and do not want that their "normal" run becomes a training-run for some strangers. So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

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Why do people feel like they should be able to draw the "lack of time" card to be extempt from grinding training groups? You are supposed to accept that they simply do not have the time to acquire their their starting kills and KPs that way. You are supposed to appreciate that they might even become an asset to your group in due time. As long as you put in the time and effort they lack to make all of this happen. You should be more than happy to struggle for a while and with quite a few kills while still teaching them. And all of that.

Don't get me wrong. I am able to see their point of view. I might even be in the same boat if I were to start raiding in another game given my own limited playing hours. But that's the thing. This supposed lack of time is a universal issue rather than something unique to newbies. People might simply lack the extra time need to help out and train a newbie or two. People might not have the time to go through countless LFG pugs until they happen to get lucky with their members while attempting some harder kills.

Just strikes me as a little ironic to have people insist so heavily on lacking time while they assume everyone else has unlimited playing hours. I mean, would they suddenly gain this free time if you allowed them into your group? Of course not. Silly to even ask. Would they be willing to forgo their own smooth and rather tightly timed clears in favour of helping out someone new if it meant no rewards or at least reduced rewards for weeks? I kind of doubt that.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@"Loki.4871" said:Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries. There was no Snowcrows, CnD, arcdps, benchmarks or guides to read through. Everything had to be figured out alone.

Today, there are raid trainings, benchmarks, guides, and a lot of hand holding for players who are interested in raiding. Guilds with raids of different skill level constantly are recruiting for new players to cover loss of players (which is a natural occurrence in raids for any MMO. People take breaks, quite, move to different squads, etc.). This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

@Zok.4956 said:But today, most raids are old and I guess that most players that raid, are experienced with the raids and do not want that their "normal" run becomes a training-run for some strangers. So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

New players start exactly where every single player started: at the beginning needing practice and understanding.

The main difference now is: you have a ton of guide materials, practice runs (often with more experienced players to help out), boss videos, power creep of an additional expansion, etc.

No, you can't join an experienced group just to get carried. But if you really want to raid, you can have a way easier start with a lot more help than "original" raiders ever had. This has remained true through the entire 4-5 years since HoT. Eventually, these "new" raiders become veteran themselves and some start assisting and helping the next generation of new raiders. I've lead a ton of trainings in the past, I've seen 2 different guilds go through the entire process of absolute beginner/inexperienced raiders with no success at VG slowly grow their kills per week and improve. They all had it way easier with all the material provided than gen1 raiders ever had, but all of them went through the exact same process in some way or another.

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"Loki.4871" said:Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries.

good for you. My group needed much longer until we made our first VG kill. But we could only raid at one evening per week because of RL.

This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

Of course, not everyone was equally bad. But just because you experienced it differently than others doesn't mean that the experience of others is just a fantasy.

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@Zok.4956 said:

@Zok.4956 said:

@"Loki.4871" said:Only killed the vale guardian, with guildmates; it took a few goes but it was fun, and we enjoyed the way we had to do something more than dps the snot out of something. That was about a year ago because due to work I've simply not been able to reliably commit to raiding with them.

The big thing that kills raids for me is the community. As one person described a different game's raiding community: "They are the vegans of this game". I pop into the airship section to have a look at try the golem every nnow and again, and it seems like every group insists on the tokens you get from killing bosses, insist on the latest meta build... it's even worse than Kanaxai of the Deep or Domain of Anguish back in Guildwars 1. It feels like peak "No fun allowed", and while I won't argue for one moment you should be able to bumble up with any build and beat the boss first time, the raiding community's 'my way or be a pariah' is just frustrating.It takes me back to something Valve noted when talking about people leaving matches in Dota2: Players were leaving because they weren't enjoying themselves. If a player wasn't enjoying themselves, even if they were winning the match, they'd usually leave; players having fun would stay even if they were losing.

I want to raid but I simply just don't want to deal with people who raid because of their behaviour.

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

I agree. But I also think that players that are new to raids face now a much bigger barrier than in the past.

Back in the days when I started raiding, gw2-raids were new to a lot of players that raided and there were a lot of training-runs in the LFG. We learned together. And if we were low-manned in our guild-group, we filled up the slots of our training runs without any kill-proof requirements.

When I started raiding in HoT, it took us around 1 week to kill VG, with multiple evenings dedicated to practice and tries.

good for you. My group needed much longer until we made our first VG kill. But we could only raid at one evening per week because of RL.

This fantasy that everyone was equally bad and thus it was easier is just that: fantasy.

Of course, not
everyone
was equally bad. But just because you experienced it differently than others doesn't mean that the experience of others is just a fantasy.

I didn't call other players experience fantasy. I'm calling this notion that everything was easier in the past a fantasy, because by simple reasoning of availability of guides, tools, and community, this can not be true.

I'm not even getting into in-game features which accommodate players. There was no damage golem to practice on or make a judgement on how good ones performance was. There was no widespread damage meters or logs to look at how the tries progressed, which mechanics failed, which boons were present. It was guess work and observation and literally reading through the combat log individually and trying out different compositions and seeing how the bosses life changed per minute.

Players today who want to raid can simply go to a website, get a build, read up on how to play the build, go to a golem if they so desire (fully solo) and get raid ready.

Meta compositions are far more flexible. The first year of HoT it was mostly: play chrono, play druid or play one of these 1 or 2 damage dealers or else you won't get taken along because balance was terrible. Today, boonthief, alcrigrade, firebrand and dps benchmarks approximately 10k above the HoT average are available.

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@Zok.4956 said:So new players that start now with raiding have a much harder time to find training runs via LFG, so they have to look for a guild, community etc. and make also commitments to that community, guild, etc.

LFG should've always been used to fill some random last spots, not form full teams of randoms. But I guess the game still lacks an easier way to find like-minded individuals and guilds/communities. Outside advertising in map chat there is very little promotion inside the game, which means outside applications are used for the job, which shouldn't be the case.

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@DutchRiders.2871 said:Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.

We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled.

OH ... I guess you are looking forward to a hefty monthly fee then ... because the kind of player you think we should all stop caring about is the kind of players that this game targets with the majority of the content in this game. I'm going to make this a very simple picture. If we stop caring about the kinds of people that make up most of the population of this game, this game will cease to exist ... unless of course all your high skilled, not-entitled buddies got lots of bux to keep it going.

There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do. So the answer isn't to ignore those people ... the answer is to give those people the content they want ... and if that means it's content for low skilled, entitled people, then too bad for you ... that's what it should be.

So you were saying?

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@"Swagger.1459" said:1- No forms of difficulty scaling.

2- The way your professions were designed... https://massivelyop.com/2019/03/28/massively-overthinking-thoughts-on-the-holy-trinity-in-mmos/

“Brianna Royce (@nbrianna, blog): Fun fact: I still remember when “holy trinity” meant tank, healer, and mezzer – the DPS players were a given, the warm bodies that filled out the rest of the group, and not part of the trinity back in the early pre-WoW days of MMO group content. The fact that this shifted over time really says all you need to know about how MMO class and combat design have changed, and not necessarily for the better.

Don’t mistake me; I no longer believe we need or must respect a trinity of either type. But what I truly resent is the loss of class variation and combat flow that naturally accompanied the demise of the classic trinity, specifically the fact that crowd control, buffing, and debuffing classes have all but disappeared in the modern rush to make nearly everyone a damage-dealer, even the healers and tanks.

As an example, I can still think of none better than City of Heroes, which offered all of the old trinity and new trinity class types (and then some) but made none of them actually mandatory to clear content. Yes, tanks and healers and CCers and buffers and debuffers and damage dealers all existed, but it was completely possible to get through the game with no healers, or all healers. With a scrapper tanking ahead of a fleet of corruptors. With a stalker and four controllers. With three bubblers and three tankers. Whatever. I don’t want to see strict trinity MMOs, but I’m even grumpier about the “everyone deeps” MMOs even more, especially when the end result is cluster**** combat where nobody ever has control over the fight. It didn’t have to be that way, but modernish devs keep reinventing the wheel, convinced they can do better. Maybe someday, they will, but so far, nah.”

Note- that "cluster" comment was a link to the GW2 section on MOP.

3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

You totally forgot the main reason. The raid community itself. A bunch of people that would rather alienate people for quick rewards now than to actually invest in the growth of the gamemode they love so much. There's been steps to rectify that by a small number of helpful people recently. PvP has gone through this same thing and is left pointing fingers too and definitely don't need to point out www server stacking. Not saying Anet isn't amazing at making every single mistake possible, but the 'GW2 has the best community ever!' stuff is pretty much relegated to open world stuff and that's the reason they've tripled down on staying there. I mainly PvP and AP hunt, but have done most of wings 1-4 before my old guild fell apart a year ago or so. Been trying to get back into raids w/o much luck. Been trying to get into www for a month or so but am stuck on Kaineng and it's literally one of the worst experiences GW2 has to offer. Just my opinion on some of the fingers we have pointing back at ourselves.

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@"Tman.6349" said:You totally forgot the main reason. The raid community itself. A bunch of people that would rather alienate people for quick rewards now than to actually invest in the growth of the gamemode they love so much.

Actually the raid community does invest in the growth of the game mode by making training runs and forming raid guilds. A random person on the internet that is just there for the quick rewards isn't an "investment" for the game mode. A person that becomes a part of a team/community is an "investment".

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@"Obtena.7952" said:There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

The surest way for any game developer to sink their game is to focus on a self-identified majority, especially for an MMORPG. Arenanet already figured that out, hopefully, as the exclusive focus on the living world wasn't working financially, they started 2020 with a strong emphasis on variety, which is the key word for a game's survival and growth. We'll see how it goes this entire year and if there are improvements to their revenue with this change.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@DutchRiders.2871 said:Are we not forgetting something really important ? Raids were fine at the start of HOT, when ya know they got updated etc. But 10 months for 2-4 easy bosses is not okey.It was an illusion created by two factors - first was the fact it was a fresh, completely new content, and so many people wanted to try it out. Second was, obviously, legendary armor, that got many people interested, who otherwise would have stayed away from the content. Those both factors had a shortterm impact only, however. Most of the former players gave up very fast, either when newness wore out, or after they've seen this content is not what they're really interested in. The latter raided a bit more, but once they've got what they wanted, they left as well, as they never really cared about
raids
in the first place. Those things were never going to last, and they only obscured the real raid popularity.

We should stop caring about the type of player that spends alot of time at this game but has a very low skill lvl and yet still feel entitled. The real casuals dont give a kitten about balance and content, they wont post on any forums.And yet those very players you want the devs to not care about are those whose (un) happiness can decide the success of GW2. The real hardcores simply
can't
keep this game afloat. There were never enough of them in the first place.

Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.

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@DutchRiders.2871 said:Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.You do need to keep whales satisfied, but yes, any developer of a game such as GW2 ignores casuals at their own peril. Just don't think that casuals don't care about content, or about balance (especially if the end result of said balance is their class getting nerfed due to some raid/PvP/WvW concerns they do not even understand). HoT proved that casuals do care. They just usually do not bother to post anything, preferring instead to simply vote with their feet.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@DutchRiders.2871 said:Its the real casuals that are the majority. By your logic we should make content for them. Not for players that spend 5hours + per week and post on forums.You do need to keep whales satisfied, but yes, any developer of a game such as GW2 ignores casuals at their own peril. Just don't think that casuals don't care about content, or about balance (especially if the end result of said balance is their class getting nerfed due to some raid/PvP/WvW concerns they do not even understand). HoT proved that casuals do care. They just usually do not bother to post anything, preferring instead to simply vote with their feet.

This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.

And as you said you need to keep the whales playing, who can be part of any group.

On top of the diminishing returns of making content for only 1 type of player.

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@yann.1946 said:This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.Indeed. It's just that you can't balance the game only for the small minority while completely ignoring the impact it will have on the rest of the content, assuming the silent majority won't care. Because they will care.

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@"Vinceman.4572" said:

Raiders want competent players. They cannot know if you are or not. That's why they ask for certain amount of kill proofs. Trust me, if you were a raider you would ask yourself for kill proofs because there are too many incompetent players out there destroying your fun heavily.How to acquire more kill proofs? Join communities, training discord or lead your own group. Don't let others do the work for you. Be pro-active and you'll be fine within few weeks.

This can be another reason for raids to be so unpopular for many players. This game has been advertised and sold as a casual friendly game. This is one of the reasons many of us are here. And after a while ... not me, the interested player, feel that I must become better. In my own rhithm/speed. NO! To be able to complete a part of the content I must not only overcome the intentions of the developers (contradicting their initial statements/intentions) to make that content to be completed only by few. I have to face what raiders want. WHAT?

This calls for the answer of "make your own squad and try how many times you want, lazy casual (or toxic casual - I saw this too)". Well, this brings the main reason (in my opinion) for the actual "love" for raids: the fact that this is a 10 man instanced content. Speaking for myself only - i never felt discouraged by a wipe (or two or three) in fractals. Why? Because I knew that the group will fill very fast. And we can try again. For the raids ... BRRR !

For the raid I must put together 10 random persons having the same daily schedule and the desire to spend all the play time for that day trying to beat the raid. So, on top of the difficulty of the raid, you should "beat" a social component too.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:There is really just ONE reason raids aren't all that popular ... because it's not the kind of content that most of the people that play this game want to do.

Yet they used to be popular enough to grow and we got more than enough confirmation that Raids in the game were successful. There are completely different reasons that Raids failed and have very little to do with what "most people that play this game want to do".

Maybe at one time, that was true. Unfortunately, what was true before is irrelevant to what is NOW. I can gaurentee the surest way for any game dev to sink their own game is to ignore what most people in the game want to do. If you think content failure has nothing to do with that, then we can only disagree with each other.

The surest way for any game developer to sink their game is to focus on a self-identified majority, especially for an MMORPG.

Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

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@Astralporing.1957 said:

@yann.1946 said:This also explains why you can't just focus on this majority. Because balance patches need to happen regardless off the existence of the competitive modes or not.Indeed. It's just that you can't balance the game only for the small minority while completely ignoring the impact it will have on the rest of the content, assuming the silent majority won't care. Because they
will
care.

Yes and no. I personally believe the feel of a class is more important for a casual then the actual numbers (they go together a little bit tho.)

Their also a continuum if states between balancing for casuals and neglecting the Hardcore and vice versa.

I personally just hope the logical fallacies about the use of the population people identify as stop. This game needs both types of players to survive anyway.

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@"Cristalyan.5728" said:This can be another reason for raids to be so unpopular for many players. This game has been advertised and sold as a casual friendly game. This is one of the reasons many of us are here. And after a while ... not me, the interested player, feel that I must become better. In my own rhithm/speed. NO! To be able to complete a part of the content I must not only overcome the intentions of the developers (contradicting their initial statements/intentions) to make that content to be completed only by few. I have to face what raiders want. WHAT?

Dungeons were in the release and catered towards hardcore players even if they failed at that. this game was never advertised as "only for casuals".

For the raid I must put together 10 random persons having the same daily schedule and the desire to spend all the play time for that day trying to beat the raid. So, on top of the difficulty of the raid, you should "beat" a social component too.

I had no time on mondays/tuesdays for the majority of the year so i pugged most of it. you dont need to do all in one go. 1h per wing is usually more than enough.

raids fail at multiple things which makes them way harder than they should be. no reason to do them more then once a week means dead lfg for half the week. dragonstand is repeatable, braindead and gives more g/h.no reason to bring new players. could be a mentor boost if a new player is there.rewards are just bad. only reason to do them is fun compared to dragonstand farm. how many players are still farming paladawan? these maps are not popular because everyone enjoys them. raiders have done raids literally hundreds of times at this point with one release a year max. open world population would look the same with that release schedule. simple gold reward should not have a lockout.

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  1. Content is too hard for the masses.
  2. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.
  3. The rewards are not equal to the content.

Not rocket science..

On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

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