Jump to content
  • Sign Up

Will we ever be accepted?


Twilight Tempest.7584

Recommended Posts

It seems no matter how many nerfs, no matter how underrepresented, no matter how lackluster remaining builds are, we'll never be accepted. When we win, it's because of our class. When we lose, that's how it should be.

69RSXik.jpg

^After beating a thief 1v1 and then 1v3. With post-patch, one-dodge hybrid-mirage trying shatter play.Running Dueling, Illusions, Mirage. Scepter/Pistol, Axe/Torch. No Chaos, no Staff, one dodge.

That person is somewhat right. I'm not good. I spent previous matches in one impossible matchup after another, being focused, chased, and clinging to my one precious dodge, rarely having the nerve to use it purely offensively. When I finally had a small taste of victory, it was apparently illegitimate.

What more do they want from us? Even in March 2020, with the harshest nerf in the game, people still don't cut us any slack. :(

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Yasai.3549 said:Forgot Axe 3's target break and evade + teleport was so busted.

May try Hybrid Mirage now and abuse Axe 3 and Illusionary Ambush then Stealth away then hit them with the big ol Confusing Images.

I was always an axe Mirage at heart, as recently as two seasons ago, well after the meta had abandoned it. It was high-risk, potentially moderate-reward pre-patch. Its damage potential and evade frames might serve better now that global damage is down and we're short a dodge.

Unfortunately, nerfs, design, and bugs make it pretty clunky at times. Axe 2 is a vulnerable animation lock that we can't afford to partially cover with MC freely anymore. The ambush was nerfed to require facing opponents when casting. The axes themselves are projectiles weak to projectile hate, and get split among opponents and AIs if in range. The delayed axe strikes will reveal you so you should take care not to enter stealth before they've dissipated. Finally, as good as axe 3 seems in theory, its tracking is poor, and it notoriously misses moving targets, especially if they move out of range after casting. It's no Rev sword 3, which will stick to targets through ports.

But if you do find any level of success with it in this post-two-dodge reality, be prepared for pug teammates to take it for granted, and opponents to adhere to antiquated attitudes towards the pink and purple butterfly class.

Good luck!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

People who whisper others like that are just salty. I get both sides though. Mesmer can be really fun to play but it can also be really frustrating to play against. Just by the nature of the mechanics mesmer and theif will always feel 'unfair' to play against to some extent, even if they're not OP.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Zexanima.7851" said:People who whisper others like that are just salty. I get both sides though. Mesmer can be really fun to play but it can also be really frustrating to play against. Just by the nature of the mechanics mesmer and theif will always feel 'unfair' to play against to some extent, even if they're not OP.

For sure. Both classes may never escape their reputations for "toxic" design elements (to borrow a popular term on this forum) unless completely redesigned from the ground up. Even if objectively underpowered and underrepresented.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:People who whisper others like that are just salty. I get both sides though. Mesmer can be really fun to play but it can also be really frustrating to play against. Just by the nature of the mechanics mesmer and theif will always feel 'unfair' to play against to some extent, even if they're not OP.

For sure. Both classes may never escape their reputations for "toxic" design elements (to borrow a popular term on this forum) unless completely redesigned from the ground up. Even if objectively underpowered and underrepresented.

It's not toxic, lets just call it what it is, bad design. From a PvP stand point it's not fun to play against things that hide information from your opponent. Imagine playing chess and every other move your opponents pieces go invisible. On top of that how conditions play as a whole are poorly designed for PvP. It's all a result of what happens when you trying to squeeze PvP into a game designed around PvE.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mesmer and thief will never get accepted. And mesmer will remain the most hated profession in the game. I play mesmer (have been since glamour mesmer), not a hardcore player but play it once in a while. And even my guild members dont like the profession. No matter how buggy, how cheesy other professions are, people always hate mesmers.

Why? Because they are unable to understand it, simply. Of course there are other haters but mostly clones and stealth make people lose focus so they feel powerless. They feel "tricked" really. And because that they cant understand it most of the time, they choose to hate it. You can hit them with 40 k winters bite, 50k eviscerate or even instakill them with meteors. But they will always keep hating mesmers. (Of course some bad game balance changes contributed to this too, like condi mirage at its full power, or one shot chrono days).

ps: bring glamour mes back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"alain.1659" said:Mesmer and thief will never get accepted. And mesmer will remain the most hated profession in the game. I play mesmer (have been since glamour mesmer), not a hardcore player but play it once in a while. And even my guild members dont like the profession. No matter how buggy, how cheesy other professions are, people always hate mesmers.

Why? Because they are unable to understand it, simply. Of course there are other haters but mostly clones and stealth make people lose focus so they feel powerless. They feel "tricked" really. And because that they cant understand it most of the time, they choose to hate it. You can hit them with 40 k winters bite, 50k eviscerate or even instakill them with meteors. But they will always keep hating mesmers. (Of course some bad game balance changes contributed to this too, like condi mirage at its full power, or one shot chrono days).

ps: bring glamour mes back.

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zexanima.7851 said:

@"alain.1659" said:Mesmer and thief will never get accepted. And mesmer will remain the most hated profession in the game. I play mesmer (have been since glamour mesmer), not a hardcore player but play it once in a while. And even my guild members dont like the profession. No matter how buggy, how cheesy other professions are, people always hate mesmers.

Why? Because they are unable to understand it, simply. Of course there are other haters but mostly clones and stealth make people lose focus so they feel powerless. They feel "tricked" really. And because that they cant understand it most of the time, they choose to hate it. You can hit them with 40 k winters bite, 50k eviscerate or even instakill them with meteors. But they will always keep hating mesmers. (Of course some bad game balance changes contributed to this too, like condi mirage at its full power, or one shot chrono days).

ps: bring glamour mes back.

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Sorry if it sounded like elitism but it was not meant to be. I was solely trying to comment on the people who never tried to learn the mesmer profession (thus unable to understand it when they face it) yet hated it profoundly. And my comment was not actually limited for gw2 but as it is late in where I live and I tend to mutli task, I might have failed that too.

Check most of the games in the market. Mostly the trickster characters, the one people feel powerless against, are the ones that are hated most. It is not limited to gw2. I specifically said "there are other haters" because people have their own opinions and those are sometimes right. My analysis was mostly aimed for the blind mesmer haters I found in my guild or in enemy teams. If you hate(d) mirage for example, you are right, as the mechanics of it really is/was broken. Or if you hate one shot chrono, well, it was really broken too.

I might have argued with you on this but I do not like where the mesmer class is right now. But I love the tricks, stealth, clones and all other deceptive skills. For me it is not a poorly designed mechanics. I would say that a one shot mechanic(including mesmer one shot) is poorly designed. Or any build that relies on a one-trick-pony style is poorly designed for me. But I love to try to read my opponent, try to trick him, and win the battle. Believe it or not I really enjoy when I am outsmarted and tricked. I usually try to learn but tend to fail miserably in several occasions. So what you do not like, I like, and what I do not like, you might like. As far as I concern if the profession is not unbeatable, or OP, both can, and should exist. As they satisfy different needs and tastes. But again, several people want to destroy/remove what they do not like.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If one wanted to farm upvotes on this forum, it'd be as simple as making false or misleading, yet popular comments like these:

Myth: "Mesmer has evades, invulns, blocks, and stealths for days."

Truth: Mesmer already had less evade up-time than most of the roster pre-patch thanks to vigor nerfs, and now has the least post-patch. I think Tayga said 6 of 8 professions had more evade up-time pre-patch. Now it's 8 of 8.

Myth: "Mesmer has too much clone spam and condi spam."

Truth: This may have been true for much of Mirage's existence, but definitely became less so over the last two years as Mirage was one of the first e-specs to begin seeing big nerfs with every balance patch, with casual 50%+ nerfs to damage, increases to cool downs, etc. Before the February 25th patch, its condi application was at a reasonable level within the meta, even if its potential for passive play wasn't the best design.

Myth: "Aww, poor mes mains carried by their OP class all these years finally have to play a non-broken class now. One-dodge Mirage is fine."

Truth: Condi-mirage in particular was without a doubt overtuned for some time following PoF, but so too was just about every other PoF elite spec, some arguably still to this day. There were completely busted builds for each of these and most of them stuck around at least as long, if not longer than OP c-Mirage because again, Mirage was one of the first to see regular nerfs. Things like Firebrand/Scourge dominance, Rampage, Boonbeast, and Yolosmith plagued Conquest and carried players just as much, if not longer, yet were complained about far less. Only now with Chrono and Mirage completely benched have the complaints largely moved on to new targets.

Being limited to a one-dodge endurance bar in a game that was universally designed around having two is absolutely not okay in terms of strategic endurance-budgeting, combat rhythm, and consistency between game modes. It also completely guts a class that is designed to do more with dodges, than simply evade attacks.

--

If nothing else, Mesmer, especially Mirage, is probably the most widely misunderstood and falsely accused class--to this day.

Just last night in HotM, after returning from a match, I saw someone saying in map chat how they were "perma CC'd and walked all over by a mesmer wielding just a sword and shield," and how "whatever buffs Anet gave mesmer are insane." People responded that they weren't aware Chrono was back from the dead. They asked what "buffs" Mesmer received and got no response. The person later mentioned they'd been gone from the game for some months and had just returned. /facepalm

These kinds of views are rampant throughout the community and seem very slow to change, even when reality has left them far beyond. I think this is why short of a complete redesign, Mesmer will always see an undue amount of hate. It will remain tolerated at best, but never really accepted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Zexanima.7851 said:People who whisper others like that are just salty. I get both sides though. Mesmer can be really fun to play but it can also be really frustrating to play against. Just by the nature of the mechanics mesmer and theif will always feel 'unfair' to play against to some extent, even if they're not OP.

This ^So to ur question the answer is no mesmers will never be accepted by a large margin of players that are not interested in the class and or dislike fighting it due to its theme and playstyle just as thief won't as well. Best u can hope for is that anet understands that a large portion of their playerbase feel the opposite and enjoy these classes the most and follow their vision for them in regards to changes and not the communities or in time neither mesmer or thief will be worth playing and the game will just lose a huge chunk of it's already low population due to players not enjoying their main anymore. Not all players just bandwagon to the fotm classes. I'd guess a lot of mirage players have already moved on at this point. I get balance is important but seeing as it's a game fun comes first.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Zexanima.7851" said:

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Your comments are poorly masked. Saying Mesmers have too much stealth/condi./burst/boons and everything else AND all in tandem is obvious hate and untrue. As far as fun to play vs. fun to fight against has some merit, I don't like fighting against other mesmers either but who has "fun" fighting a perma evade/stealth thief, or the warr. that hits for 5k auto attacks yet has 1k Passive regen. AND tons of invuln/blocks or yolosmith, or boonbest or...….or...…..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@holly lyn.2173 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Your comments are poorly masked. Saying Mesmers have too much stealth/condi./burst/boons and everything else AND all in tandem is obvious hate and untrue. As far as fun to play vs. fun to fight against has some merit, I don't like fighting against other mesmers either but who has "fun" fighting a perma evade/stealth thief, or the warr. that hits for 5k auto attacks yet has 1k Passive regen. AND tons of invuln/blocks or yolosmith, or boonbest or...….or...…..

I get what ur saying but mesmers cant really complain about other classes damage nor their evades etc etc when even post patch ur burst outa stealth is still 14k+ and even with one dodge mirage is still far more elusive than probably all other classes. Clone spam find the real mesmer they distort take no damage poof there gone than literally repeat as a good mirage dances around u stripping ur hp very fast if they didn't one shot u from stealth. The class honestly due to its design probably pushes more people out of the game and onto other games without such a as burnfall puts it a toxic design. The class is literal cheese incarnate lol thief is cheese as well but mirage is literally the king of cheese, don't think I've ever seen something designed worse in any vid I've played lol.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Your comments are poorly masked. Saying Mesmers have too much stealth/condi./burst/boons and everything else AND all in tandem is obvious hate and untrue. As far as fun to play vs. fun to fight against has some merit, I don't like fighting against other mesmers either but who has "fun" fighting a perma evade/stealth thief, or the warr. that hits for 5k auto attacks yet has 1k Passive regen. AND tons of invuln/blocks or yolosmith, or boonbest or...….or...…..

I get what ur saying but mesmers cant really complain about other classes damage nor their evades etc etc when even post patch ur burst outa stealth is still 14k+ and even with one dodge mirage is still far more elusive than probably all other classes. Clone spam find the real mesmer they distort take no damage poof there gone than literally repeat as a good mirage dances around u stripping ur hp very fast if they didn't one shot u from stealth. The class honestly due to its design probably pushes more people out of the game and onto other games without such a as burnfall puts it a toxic design. The class is literal cheese incarnate lol thief is cheese as well but mirage is literally the king of cheese, don't think I've ever seen something designed worse in any vid I've played lol.

you realize that mirage has propably about half as much evasions as warrior? or thief?pre patch it ALREADY had less, and now it lost 1 dodge, and got increased cooldowns on scepter/axe.meanwhile warrior legit didnt lose ANY of its dodges. lul

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@"Zexanima.7851" said:

Your mesmer elitism is wrong. I and many others understand how it plays perfectly well. Its a case of "Fun to play, not fun to play against". Its not how hard it hits (which core can spike pretty hard) but how it plays. Its a class that is a big perpetrator of using lots of invulns, stealth and stealth burst, as well as condi spam and boon spam. All of which are pretty unfun mechanics to face specially in tandem. Its not that it's broken or that people are too dumb to understand "such a complicated profession" its just that it's mechanics are poorly designed.

Your comments are poorly masked. Saying Mesmers have too much stealth/condi./burst/boons and everything else AND all in tandem is obvious hate and untrue. As far as fun to play vs. fun to fight against has some merit, I don't like fighting against other mesmers either but who has "fun" fighting a perma evade/stealth thief, or the warr. that hits for 5k auto attacks yet has 1k Passive regen. AND tons of invuln/blocks or yolosmith, or boonbest or...….or...…..

I get what ur saying but mesmers cant really complain about other classes damage nor their evades etc etc when even post patch ur burst outa stealth is still 14k+ and even with one dodge mirage is still far more elusive than probably all other classes. Clone spam find the real mesmer they distort take no damage poof there gone than literally repeat as a good mirage dances around u stripping ur hp very fast if they didn't one shot u from stealth. The class honestly due to its design probably pushes more people out of the game and onto other games without such a as burnfall puts it a toxic design. The class is literal cheese incarnate lol thief is cheese as well but mirage is literally the king of cheese, don't think I've ever seen something designed worse in any vid I've played lol.

xD you throw in random words and hope it helps. In a other post you even questioned if Mesmers can change the position with their clones. Shows basically with what we are talking here....

Wasn’t it the case that pre patch 6 / 8 classes had more evade and now 8 / 8 classes have more evade then mirage?

Then you still complain about the Mesmer burst? You have to dodge one time to avoid it. Mesmer has to use 5 if not 7 skills to make the burst work + the first skill HAS to crit. After that Mesmer has no other options then going defense or skill spamming with sword. And last but not least the target has to be squishy but what do you expect. You guys go mostly glass cannon and then complain about things like getting one shooted.

Sadly I have to give you that, Mesmer and especially mirage is pushing bad players out of the game because the majority (like you) don’t even try to improve.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Lol no.

"Omg macro mesmer." "garbage skillless one shot from stealth." "Mantra mesmer is no skill."

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Naah. I played mostly power and this kind of whispers were still common.

Hmm, yeah maybe I've been lucky here. Mesmer haters always going to hate, even if we had no dodges. xD

For the record this is not based on recent experience, and I never liked or used MoD or MoP with gs.

In terms of relative number of hate whispers, I've received more over time on staff or any leaning towards condi than with power, and can't ever recall many if any compliments when condi though have certainly had the odd one here and there in the past when power - granted again this is not up to date.

But yeah all mesmer gets far too much salt in general.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Curunen.8729 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Lol no.

"Omg macro mesmer." "garbage skillless one shot from stealth." "Mantra mesmer is no skill."

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Naah. I played mostly power and this kind of whispers were still common.

Hmm, yeah maybe I've been lucky here. Mesmer haters always going to hate, even if we had no dodges. xD

For the record this is not based on recent experience, and I never liked or used MoD or MoP with gs.

In terms of relative number of hate whispers, I've received more over time on staff or any leaning towards condi than with power, and can't ever recall many if any compliments when condi though have certainly had the odd one here and there in the past when power - granted again this is not up to date.

But yeah all mesmer gets far too much salt in general.

Bra, i have played power axe 4fun builds and got called trash condi abuser.People are clueless.Add the fact in that 95% players hate conditions. add in that 95% players get lost in clones. and salt salt salt incoming!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Lol no.

"Omg macro mesmer." "garbage skillless one shot from stealth." "Mantra mesmer is no skill."

@Curunen.8729 said:Ah yes, but pick up a GS and suddenly you're "good".

The prejudice is real.

Naah. I played mostly power and this kind of whispers were still common.

Hmm, yeah maybe I've been lucky here. Mesmer haters always going to hate, even if we had no dodges. xD

For the record this is not based on recent experience, and I never liked or used MoD or MoP with gs.

In terms of relative number of hate whispers, I've received more over time on staff or any leaning towards condi than with power, and can't ever recall many if any compliments when condi though have certainly had the odd one here and there in the past when power - granted again this is not up to date.

But yeah all mesmer gets far too much salt in general.

Bra, i have played power axe 4fun builds and got called trash condi abuser.People are clueless.Add the fact in that 95% players hate conditions. add in that 95% players get lost in clones. and salt salt salt incoming!

Oh I agree, there's a lot of clueless players moaning about stuff that is complete nonsense, especially when it comes to any form of mesmer.

Though my favourite case of bullkitten was a number of years back in pvp beating a thief as melee ranger - got accused and reported for hacking because impossible to have so many evades, lol. Clueless and hypocritical.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:It seems no matter how many nerfs, no matter how underrepresented, no matter how lackluster remaining builds are, we'll never be accepted. When we win, it's because of our class. When we lose, that's how it should be.

69RSXik.jpg

^After beating a thief 1v1 and then 1v3. With post-patch, one-dodge hybrid-mirage trying shatter play.Running Dueling, Illusions, Mirage. Scepter/Pistol, Axe/Torch. No Chaos, no Staff, one dodge.

That person is somewhat right. I'm not good. I spent previous matches in one impossible matchup after another, being focused, chased, and clinging to my one precious dodge, rarely having the nerve to use it purely offensively. When I finally had a small taste of victory, it was apparently illegitimate.

What more do they want from us? Even in March 2020, with the harshest nerf in the game, people still don't cut us any slack. :(

You know what, I accept you. I might not always enjoy fighting messmers but I think they along with Rev are the two most unique classes in this game, no other game has something like them. So as a rev player and someone who dabbles with messmer, know that you are accepted and there are those of us out there who adore you for all that you guys do for us. (Jumping puzzles, helping in dungeons, leading in raids, helping in strikes.)

Play what you like, screw what other people thing.. They didn't buy your game and they didn't put in the time you did. You do you mate, and take pride knowing that they are so pathetic they have to stoop to that level of childish behavior.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...