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Top 3 reasons why raids only attracted a small audience


Swagger.1459

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@"Obtena.7952" said:Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

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More actually, how the content is delivered etc. When someone new ask what's there to do in GW2? What's there to keep them playing/end game? Open world and WvW will be on the table, since its a mmo group contents will first be mentioned (unlikely will mention achievement grinding or any solo self-interest as first choice). Fractals might or might not be mentioned, but inevitable be introduced as a PvE content. Other contents might be mentioned or omitted.

Dungeons might be omitted or mentioned with a hint its abandoned and Fractals will be introduced as alternative. Thus, new players will either know about dungeon existence or not at all. Eitherway, access will prove to be difficult. The same rule applies for all contents, for Raid and all.

Eg. If a player was introduced Raid or let known as part of the end content, imo it's not hard to get the player into raid with proper guidance or an existing raid squad ready to accept. Here, players won't get map advertising LFG for raids/dungeons etc.

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Imo the 3 reasons and missing.

1) Branding; Promoting or advertising the content.

2) Content Enviroment(?) - Access, tutorial and adds value doing it (reward, story, learn mechanics depth etc something worthwhile to repeat and play)

3) Update - New content to keep it fresh, improving(eg. new mechanics) and updating over time(balance, bug fixing even for older contents).

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@Dante.1508 said:

  1. Content is too hard for the masses.

True given the lack of incentive to improve for large parts of the player base.

Untrue for even the simplest "easy" builds, similar to the open world builds on metabattle, which trivialize any open world content.

There are rather simple and safe builds which bring more than enough performance while being very easy to play. That leaves only boss attacks and strategies as difficulty, and those can be practiced or simplified with certain setups.

@Dante.1508 said:

  1. The population that does raids is beyond toxic and elitist.

First, I'd question how you'd know since you are not known to be a player who actually engages in said content. So this is a pure hear say from your side. (If you haven't participated in at least a certain set amount of raids, given this content is over 4 years old, don't presume to make judgements on an entire part of the player base. Either make a personal subjective statement based on your own experience, or refrain from unqualified judgments).

Second, from the thousands of raid players I've met, the vast majority were casual raiders within their own guild groups or social circles, and I daresay, 99% of them were very friendly and great people (from the short time I had with many, others I have as friends and help out in their casual raids).

I assume the toxicity you are referring to is the age old:"oh I wasn't taken along", the "oh the barrier is to high with thousands of KP and LI requirements" or "random toxic person xyz was mean to me". To that all I can say:

  1. PUG raids are not representative of the entire raid community, just as open world toxicity when a more difficult meta fails is not representative of the average open world player (and man can players in open world get toxic in chat).

  2. a lot of players who are interested in playing raid content regularly are organized in many different types of social communities and guilds. Toxicity is not present to a large extent here or otherwise the toxic individuals get removed. These "non toxic" players will not be present to a large extent in the PUG raiding pool while still being a large part of the community.

  3. the term elitism gets thrown around a lot. Most often in this games in context of:"every one who enjoys to improve or improves their game play is elitist". I don't consider players who enjoy taking on challenging content elitist, and given the huge performance disparities between even successful raiders, I find that notion rather offensive against a large part of this games player base.

@Dante.1508 said:

  1. The rewards are not equal to the content.

Sure, raid rewards are on the low side. This has been complained about on multiple occasions. That's a benefit though since it makes raids less a requirement (but would directly affect why less players do them).

@Dante.1508 said:On a side note most modern customers do not have time to spend hours in these things failing over and over..

Then this content is not for you if you are unwilling to dedicate enough time to it.

I know enough players who have very busy real life issues taking up time (kids, work, family, renovation, vacations, etc.). Some carve out room for raid content because it's the content they enjoy, others spend time on other things. Time commitment and devotion is a matter of personal availability to leisure time and preference.

TL;DR:For someone who calls other players toxic and elitist, the casual approach to marginalize an entire part of the player base seems a rather toxic approach to this issue. Especially since it's not support with any facts. That's called having a bias.

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@"Nephalem.8921" said:

Dungeons were in the release and catered towards hardcore players even if they failed at that. this game was never advertised as "only for casuals".

Dungeons were advertized as hard content. The most difficult content at that time. Still, I don't remember any dev declaration that the dungeons are designed with the intentions to be NOT possible to be completed by the majority of the players. Can you show me that I'm wrong?

And I said "advertized as a casual friendly game". I never said the game was advertized "only for casuals". Please pay atention.

I had no time on mondays/tuesdays for the majority of the year so i pugged most of it. you dont need to do all in one go. 1h per wing is usually more than enough.

This is a matter of how you look at that 1 hour. Maybe not all the players are as skilfull as you to complete a wing in 1 hour. Maybe at the end of that hour some players will score zero wins. In my case, if I spend that 1 hour trying to beat the raids the activity will turn from "playing GW2 for fun" to "my only activity when I log In - to raid one hour". When playing GW2 I can play a lot of different content - even in one hour you can play several pieces of content. By turning all my time into a raiding activity, I think I will quit very fast.

So, maybe for you this only activity is enough. For me it is not - I prefer to "browse" through the game rather than to focus on a single aspect. And "raiding only" - as you suggest means (for me at least) an excesive focus on one aspect.

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@Swagger.1459 said:3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

I'd have to say this is the biggest reason for us. It started back with dungeon in 2013 when we tried our first time and it left a bad taste in our mouths that we now avoid that kind of content with a passion. It's still prevalent today though less toxic it comes now in the form of competitive PvE players leaving the group causing longer wait times IF it even forms. Or Group forms runs through fails and breaks apart. They are just two different styles of play that don't mix well!

PvE Elite = Pro player, usually 1 prof know inside and out with variant builds and gear, faster PC systems & Bandwidth, typically younger (could be wrong just seems it?), not willing to stick around, share or teach.

PvE Average = Patient, willing to try again multiple times (remember LWS2 Achievs?), plays all or most profs, usually ≤ some ascended, 1 or 2 build/toon, often or sometimes Min. PC specs, slower bandwidth, Older & slower (not that all are!) willing to learn, share and be taught.

Sure you can pick that apart if you want to go down that road.

The other MAJOR issue not mentioned is the Distraction Factor! That's a huge one for us also.

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@Jayden Reese.9542 said:Then don't be a part of it? Why does it bother you that something you don't want to do is in GW2?

Because they attach the shinies to them! Why can't we have the same shinies earned w/o Strike Missions, Raids, PvP, WvW, etc..? Why can't I get the same reward for say killing 10000 World Bosses!? Or 2500 Bounties or 7k Champions? Why doesn't PvE have that? Just like other game modes. Other game modes run in do the story then load up a reward track and rinse repeat until you get all your shinies. Why can't PvE have those same rewards for doing the same thing over and over? That's all we do do! Story > Map > Events > Meta > Achievements > repeat.

Welp, that's off my chest not like it'll happen but just say'n. Look at it from both sides not just the one ou play, I' don't have a ton of rank but I do play all 3 game modes

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@Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

@Swagger.1459 said:3- Combining number 1 + 2 ultimately created a toxic environment for instanced content that most people don't want to be part of.

I'd have to say this is the biggest reason for us. It started back with dungeon in 2013 when we tried our first time and it left a bad taste in our mouths that we now avoid that kind of content with a passion. It's still prevalent today though less toxic it comes now in the form of competitive PvE players leaving the group causing longer wait times IF it even forms. Or Group forms runs through fails and breaks apart. They are just two different styles of play that don't mix well!

PvE Elite = Pro player, usually 1 prof know inside and out with variant builds and gear, faster PC systems & Bandwidth, typically younger (could be wrong just seems it?), not willing to stick around, share or teach.

PvE Average = Patient, willing to try again multiple times (remember LWS2 Achievs?), plays all or most profs, usually ≤ some ascended, 1 or 2 build/toon, often or sometimes Min. PC specs, slower bandwidth, Older & slower (not that all are!) willing to learn, share and be taught.

Sure you can pick that apart if you want to go down that road.

The other MAJOR issue not mentioned is the Distraction Factor! That's a huge one for us also.

Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

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@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

That's some very big glossing everything together under barely an argument.

Also, you are wrong. For most industries it absolutely makes sense to cater to the fringe group. That's why there is ultra expensive cars, ships and other luxury products. Because the cost into producing them is in no relation to the revenue they generate. That's why ANY bigger business has key account managers. We aren't talking about implementing a completely different product or even game type (aka shooter) here. Your comparison with McDonald's and Sushi does not hold up at all since that is a completely different product and has NOTHING in common with their core product. You opposite comparison with Ferrari is the exact opposite, the reason we don't have budget priced Ferrari's is because Ferrari doesn't cater to the masses.

Your argument would only make sense IF the resources devoted to producing this extra content was in huge contrast to the revenue generated, which is very well possible by now. But to flat out state that producing content for a fringe group makes no sense is stretching it. I would remind you that according to official statements, the dungeon/fractal/raid team was tiny compared to the rest of the teams (4-5 people who were also part of other teams).

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@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

That's some very big glossing everything together under barely an argument.

Also, you are wrong. For most industries it absolutely makes sense to cater to the fringe group. That's why there is ultra expensive cars, ships and other luxury products.

No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to specific customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

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I think we all deep down know the REAL reason why raids attract a small audience and will KEEP attracting that small audience are:

  1. Barrier of entry------Getting 10-20 whatever people on in voice comms is a logistic and organizational challenge. They all have to be on simultaneously and in the same timezone and keep their mouths shut enough while raids and such mechanics are being explained. Getting new players in is also a great challenge.
  2. Time constraints------These things take a while!
  3. Min-max culture------Raids inherently encourage a min-max culture where eventually people will figure out and dissect the entire encounter enough where there are optimal builds and allows for people to exclude others if they don't reach near optimal numbers or even reliable kills and clears. I KNOW people here will say otherwise, but that is the reality of it. I witnessed it firsthand in my guild.
  4. Raids eventually become farmable at some point------ As with all endgame pve content, eventually it will become streamlined enough to where it becomes easy to farm with the "right" group. After that, there's really nothing more to experience. Raids just become stale after that point.
  5. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

My source for all this is: myself. I raided for a couple of months in my guild. I learned the encounters, practiced golem rotations, looked at guides before I began. I kept my mouth shut on the discord channels and did my best to help groups. I did all that the community said I needed to do. I killed some bosses: Kairn, VG, Slothasor, Gorse, Samarog, Bandits, Overseer, got the killproofs. It was...ok at times...only because it was something new to learn. Also, because there was really nothing else to look forward to in gw2. (spvp/wvw update hadn't come yet) Once the spvp/wvw update came, I quit raiding for good and went straight into pvp again. Endgame pve became stale and boring, as with all MMO endgame pve at some point.

Also, this min-max culture is infecting fractals, even in lower tiers. THAT to me is unacceptable. Then again, I suppose that's par for the course when pve has become the focus of gw2 for so many years, at pvp's expense. I lament for MMOs that always chase the WoW model of attracting endgame pvers. That's a losing game.

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@"JTGuevara.9018" said:

  1. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

I don't know where you got that 5th reason but I started doing raids to do one thing and one thing only: Legendary Armour. Eventually I began to enjoy it, even when I go on PUGS. When I got my first leggy armour, I decided I wanted to get another set after that.

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@Melech.4308 said:

@"JTGuevara.9018" said:
  1. The juice isn't worth the squeeze-----Really the only reason to raid is: rewards. Social experience, enjoyment? I doubt it. I truly doubt that most people enjoy it enough to do it constantly, even with friends. The fact of the matter is: you need 10 friends! Also, there is a such a thing as "burnout" after all.

I don't know where you got that 5th reason but I started doing raids to do one thing and one thing only: Legendary Armour. Eventually I began to enjoy it, even when I go on PUGS. When I got my first leggy armour, I decided I wanted to get another set after that.You had an interest, and found players to align with or have the same interest to work together.

JTGuevara.9018 had an interest, but not what's expected and lost interest(due to various reasons, and it's normal).

There is social enjoyment, playing with friends etc (in PvP sense, the feeling climbing 2v2 with a partner, compared to strangers randomly each match gives a different vibes). It's a group content and it might not be for everyone. Eg. Not everyone is interested in the story content, open world bosses,PvP, fractals, raids etc which is part of the game(will have or find justifications for it). It all requires updates over time. or end up like Dungeons, pass open world maps and contents :anguished:

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Maybe ... but there isn't any reason to wax theoretical here. What I said is true AND relevant to the situation NOW. A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players. We'll see what the recent change in attitude, and giving more varied content, will result in, as in Q4 2019 they released content for a single type of player. Now they spread more. We'll all be here to discuss the Q1 2020 and Q2 2020 results.

That's an easy statement to make but that's not how service industries work and demonstrates a significant lack of business acumen on your part. For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content. The costs to maintain and design raids has to be REALLY low and the revenues earned per raid minute played have to be REALLY high compared to other content if they are so poorly attended to keep development of them. I'm willing to bet that's not the case.

The fact is that generally, I'm right. If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business. And that's not just MMO's ... that's ANY service industry. Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things. You see that happen all the time in other service industries and there isn't anything unique about game provision or the people that patronize game providers to make that untrue. Anet hasn't done that and the popularity of raids is just one of many indicators of it.

That's some very big glossing everything together under barely an argument.

Also, you are wrong. For most industries it absolutely makes sense to cater to the fringe group. That's why there is ultra expensive cars, ships and other luxury products.

No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to
specific
customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

No, you are wrong. Ferrari, as per your example, if part of Fiat Chrysler Automobiles. Ferrai IS the company serving the fringe group in the Automobile market.

The reason they don't make cheap cars is because those mainstream customers are served by other parts of the Fiat group.

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@"yann.1946" said:Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

So you admit the problem exists?!The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

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@Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

@"yann.1946" said:Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

So you admit the problem exists?!

I admit the perception of the problem exist.

The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

Let's talk about conformation bias. Quite a few people even in this forum have an already setmindset of what the raid community looks like. So the first time they encounter toxicity, their reaction becomes. See raiders are toxic etc. While this is demonstrably false. (ofcourse their are some toxic players, but thats just a consequence of having a big enough group.)

Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

It was not worth the time for you. But that's because you might not be the target audience of the mode. The most fun I had last month was wiping on the jormag strike for over an hour while talking with a guildie of discord.

So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

Personally I want people to experience as much from the game as possible. Atm I'm not raiding or doing strikes, but am doing wvw for the new skin. That way I keep my exp as fresh as possible.

In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

I personally don't think that giving access to all shines etc by playing just one gamemode/part of a game mode is a hood thing.

Because it's on average more fun for the player and better for the company to nudge people into game modes they are unfamiliar with then to let them bore out from doing the same thing over and over.

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@Obtena.7952 said:For instance, if what you said was true, we would have McDonald's sushi, we would have budget-priced Ferrarri's, we would have lots things that don't exist just because 'catering to the fringe' would be an awesome idea ... but we don't, so I know it's not ... and that's not different here. Raids aren't popular compared to other content.

It's the other way around because you forgot that Arenanet was already making varied content, until they went inconsistent (remember that word?) in Q4 2019. If what you say is true then McDonald's would see which specific burger sells more than the others and only make that one. Also it's like Ferrari seeing which model is selling the most/is most popular and stop manufacturing all others. If McDonald's or Ferrari worked on your popularity idea they'd both go bankrupt very quickly. Fortunately those running the businesses have a good understanding of markets and keep varied offerings

If a service provider doesn't focus on the customers that make it successful at the expense of trying appeal to the fringe, that's a bad way to do business.

No, that's the good way to do business. Notice how a good business offer variety, that's the key word here. The more varied the offerings, the better the results.

Service providers that know their customers and carve out their market by consistently providing those customers what they want have a solid foundation to expand their customer base and try other things.

Well since they stopped releasing anything but open world content in Q4 2019 their revenue tanked, so maybe the one that doesn't know what the customers of this game want is... you? As I said, now that Arenanet went back to being consistent we'll see the results.

No, I'm right because those companies DON'T make ultra cheap cars, ships and budget products that would caters to fringe groups outside the core customers they serve. They cater to specific customers in their markets. That's what we are talking about here. How a company serves it's customers, not how a whole market is served by many different companies.

Again you are making the wrong argument. We are talking about a company that was ALREADY making ultra cheap cars and expensive cars, a company that was already offering burgers and sushi and suddenly decided to to scrap one part of their company to focus on the other. Here I thought that inconsistency is a problem, but clearly it's a problem only when it fits your agenda.

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@Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:

@"yann.1946" said:Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

So you admit the problem exists?!The forums contain the opinions of mine and a great many others as to why we feel this way. Mine is just one but it's exactly the experiences we've had. So there is no "believe" needed. It's cold hard truth from actual game play. I even have some videos showing it but I can't share them.

Yes, there absolutely are guilds dedicate to training for raids / strike missions. Been there done that. I cannot say it was a totally bad experience but I can say that when it came time, after having built a dedicated team over the course of a week with extra time on the weekend, to actually go for the kill. It went NOTHING like the 5 "training's" before hand so we never actual made a single defeat. Kinda disheartening. Again this is just our experiences. Others may have had better or even worse. Still was NOT worth the time we put into it!

So I get that that comment is a bit vague. It's essential venting that the AP is split between modes rather than being able to gain it all from one mode. Also the point is as I have posted on another forum for Strike Missions. That is that we have lost the "option" of completing the Story achievements from strike missions and now are required to IF we CHOOSE (and many do!! Like myself. In fact this is the first Story Journal I haven't finished.) to finish the story achievements to do strike missions. That comes with a multitude of other problems. Though, it does comply with Player Autonomy.....so it's apparently were they are going moving forward. Never mind the "we want positive player interactions" Cuz that will not take place with two groups going after 2 separate goals in the same content! For example, this Monday you might go for Fraenir of Jormag for the weekly rewards/hope at rare chest drop. While we will be going in it for the achievements. All 3 achievements promote some party members focusing on other things than actually wining. THAT's not going to make others happy and groups have disbursed because of it. So, tell me. Wouldn't you be complaining if the role was reversed? I see your side of it, you want more players playing your content (at least that's my thought?). But if you want that there is a saying "beggars can't be choosers".

In the end we all want the same thing. To play the game and get shinies from the game mode we enjoy (and have fun at it). So why can't we?

If you trained 5 times on a boss and werent able to get the kill, you either started on soulless horror or the group needs to do easier instance like t1 fractals or strikes to get used to dodging and positioning. None of the first bosses minus SH are hard enough that you cant kill them after practicing that long if you come prepared.

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@Obtena.7952 said:A game that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content is doomed compared to a game that caters to what most of it's population want. Anet doesn't need to worry about whatever self-identification you are referring to ... they know what people are participating in what content and they know what money those people are spending on the game as well. Anet has what they need to determine the ROI based on content categories ... and indications are that it's NOT raids.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:A game "that caters to fractions of it's population with various kinds of content" will survive and prosper compared to a game that tries to cater to what "most of its population want". That's how mmorpgs work, they cater to lots of different types of players.

I think both of you are correct in some parts and also wrong in some parts. :)

One of the core devs that worked on GW1 and GW2 and left Anet and founded another studio wrote somewhere, that some of the lessons he learned from GW2 was, that it was not a good idea to make so much different game modes in one game. Because you will never have enough ressources in the company to support all game modes equally and as a result there will always be players in the game that are unhappy, because they feel that their game mode is not supported anymore.

When a new company starts it is usually a good strategy to focus only on one small part of the market and customer base and become the leader in this small area. And if you are successful you make money and the company can grow and can extend to other market areas and customer groups.

When a company, that is active in a lot of different market areas, is not successful (for whatever reasons) anymore, it usually shrinks and focusses only on its core market and core competencies until it is stable again and makes money again. And then it can try to grow again into other markets.

So, what does this mean for the actual situation with Anet and GW2? We actually have (if we ignore buying the PoF expansion, which is B2P) now a kind of F2P game that makes revenue from gem sales from the gemstore. As a company, Anet MUST focus on revenue and profit, or the company will not survive.

So they have to focus on the part of the population, that regularly buys gems with real money. They have to increase this part of the population and also have to increase how much real money in average every player of this population spends for the game.

This means that players, that have a lot of gold (because they play the game for a long time or because they are efficient in making gold), and can convert gold into GEMs, do not create directly any revenue for Anet. But having this kind of players (and content for them) in the game can attract other players, that actually are spending real money for GEMs.

So, which players/content are actually making the most money for Anet?I have no clue, but I guess it is more complicated than we all think. :)

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@"Zok.4956" said:But having this kind of players (and content for them) in the game can attract other players, that actually are spending real money for GEMs.

This is so true. If I may add that "rich" players buying gems with gold will increase the value of gems to gold, meaning not-so-rich players will find it more enticing to buy gems and then convert to gold. So a player with tons of gold buying gems will in turn increase the revenue of Arenanet by increasing the value of gems.

So, which players/content are actually making the most money for Anet?

Outside money generation, another important aspect to look at is how much time players spent in-game. Players with a high play time keep the game alive and active for players with very little play time. Generally speaking, invested players spend more money on games, the heavier the investment, the more likely to spend money, to justify that investment.

It's way too complicated for sure!

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@yann.1946 said:

@yann.1946 said:Honestly I think this dichotomy you wrote is the biggest problem for raids.Mostly because people believe this to be true while it is demonstrably false.

Their are lots of training guilds willen to teach, and a mayor parts of the average community don't care about teaching other players at all.

On the note of rewards, why do you think you can't get pvp rewards in pve etc. No gift of battle outside of wvw etc.

So you admit the problem exists?!

I admit the perception of the problem exist.

Welp, I've already stated I have a video of just the kinds of problems I and others have listed. I'm not the only one either go look you'll find it. It's no mere "perception" but you keep telling yourself that! That in it's own is proof of the leetude we are talking about.

The REAL fact is ANet has and knows the numbers but will NEVER share them. So to a point we'll never know. But if you look with open eyes you will see!

Have a good day and Enjoy!

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@Shikaru.7618 said:

@Seth Moonshadow.2710 said:If you trained 5 times on a boss and werent able to get the kill, you either started on soulless horror or the group needs to do easier instance like t1 fractals or strikes to get used to dodging and positioning. None of the first bosses minus SH are hard enough that you cant kill them after practicing that long if you come prepared.

I agree, I kept trying to have us train on VG, but the group voted for the Keep (I' think that was it the worgs and caslte?) we never made it much past the worgs.

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My no.1 reason is the elitism. You can't join a PUG if you can't provide enough "proof" of your raid gaming skills. I, for one, understand most mechanics after the first or second run, I don't need to have done it dozens of times. Yet, I would still have to ping a high amount of LI to be allowed to join in most cases. That's tiresome and not worth my time, hence I lost interest in raids quickly.

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